{"items": [{"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945817951122", "anchor": "fb-945817951122", "service": "fb", "text": "I find it makes reading much more confusing.", "timestamp": "1528979236"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945817951122&reply_comment_id=945818230562", "anchor": "fb-945817951122_945818230562", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Can you link to some examples you've found frustrating?", "timestamp": "1528979456"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945817951122&reply_comment_id=945819473072", "anchor": "fb-945817951122_945819473072", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman No, this was a specific post by Sparr that confused me because I couldn't distinguish between the protagonist and the antagonists. It might have involved using the word both ways in one sentence, which would not have happened with traditional American pronoun usage.", "timestamp": "1528979899"}, {"author": "Sparr", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945817951122&reply_comment_id=945833939082", "anchor": "fb-945817951122_945833939082", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Bob came over for dinner, and then Susan joined us. They brought some wine.", "timestamp": "1528988256"}, {"author": "Peter", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945817951122&reply_comment_id=945836389172", "anchor": "fb-945817951122_945836389172", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I once held, and expressed, concern about ambiguity created by use of singular 'they'. In practice, I have found that increased frequency has reduced my confusion. The more I hear/use singular 'they,' the less confusing I have found it.
Of course, certain members of my family have a habit of telling stories with frequent pronoun use, sometimes switching antecedents without telling us (\"He dyed his hair to hide the gray and he was born two weeks later\" ... same sentence, suddenly a different \"he\" without warning). Maybe that helped prepare me to find contextual clues, but in any event my confusions are now much shorter in duration, and substantially less uncomfortable for me. More importantly, it seems that the usage is a whole lot MORE comfortable for the folks I'm speaking to / about. My personal experience has been that the tradeoff is more than worth it.", "timestamp": "1528989628"}, {"author": "Peter", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945817951122&reply_comment_id=945837072802", "anchor": "fb-945817951122_945837072802", "service": "fb", "text": "→ In the example above (\"Bob came over for dinner, and then Susan joined us. They brought some wine.\") a gendered 3rd person pronoun could clarify. But only in the specific case of one male-identified person and one female-identified person. If it were \"Bob came over for dinner, and then Jason joined us. He brought some wine.\" Is equally ambiguous, isn't it? As with any other case where there are two possible antecedents, seems like just using the actual name is the way to clarify there. To me this example sounds like an inherent ambiguity in the use of pronouns, not in the use of a specific pronoun.", "timestamp": "1528989843"}, {"author": "Sophia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945817951122&reply_comment_id=945847042822", "anchor": "fb-945817951122_945847042822", "service": "fb", "text": "→ There's an Agatha Christie mystery where someone is incriminated by the murderer removing a page from a letter, and thereby changing the antecedent reference.", "timestamp": "1528995482"}, {"author": "Dan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945819602812", "anchor": "fb-945819602812", "service": "fb", "text": "How do you feel about singular verbs with \"they?\" I find it kind of obviates most of my confusion to say \"they is\" instead of \"they are,\" but that doesn't seem commonplace.", "timestamp": "1528979997"}, {"author": "Anna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945819602812&reply_comment_id=945822901202", "anchor": "fb-945819602812_945822901202", "service": "fb", "text": "→ It is hard to listen to \"they is\". Even when using they to refer to a single person, I pair it with the plural form of the verb.", "timestamp": "1528982318"}, {"author": "Eli\u0161ka", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945819602812&reply_comment_id=945823235532", "anchor": "fb-945819602812_945823235532", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"They\" conjugates like \"you\" does. You wouldn't say \"you is\", would you?", "timestamp": "1528982685"}, {"author": "Dan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945819602812&reply_comment_id=945823564872", "anchor": "fb-945819602812_945823564872", "service": "fb", "text": "→ But that's second-person. They is being used as third-person singular in this case.", "timestamp": "1528982969"}, {"author": "Dan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945819602812&reply_comment_id=945823594812", "anchor": "fb-945819602812_945823594812", "service": "fb", "text": "→ This is just my aging, less-elastic brain's way of coping, I think.", "timestamp": "1528983024"}, {"author": "Sophia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945819602812&reply_comment_id=945824003992", "anchor": "fb-945819602812_945824003992", "service": "fb", "text": "→ We use \"you are\" for both singular and plural \"you,\" though. :)", "timestamp": "1528983321"}, {"author": "Angela", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945819602812&reply_comment_id=945824567862", "anchor": "fb-945819602812_945824567862", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I have some confusion conjugating, too. I think it's most difficult for me in complex sentences, i.e., \"She has a taco, and they have a burrito.\"", "timestamp": "1528983326"}, {"author": "Angela", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945819602812&reply_comment_id=945824767462", "anchor": "fb-945819602812_945824767462", "service": "fb", "text": "→ They same confusion does not occur if you say \"She has a taco, and you have a burrito.\"", "timestamp": "1528983363"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945819602812&reply_comment_id=945846913082", "anchor": "fb-945819602812_945846913082", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Angela it does if there are four of you!", "timestamp": "1528995395"}, {"author": "Angela", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945819602812&reply_comment_id=945849368162", "anchor": "fb-945819602812_945849368162", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Michael, I'm from the south. If there are four of you, I'm saying \"y'all\"", "timestamp": "1528996946"}, {"author": "Becca", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945819602812&reply_comment_id=945986009332", "anchor": "fb-945819602812_945986009332", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Michael or alternatively, you guys have burritos if you\u2019re from Chicago \ud83d\ude1b", "timestamp": "1529075228"}, {"author": "Angela", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945819602812&reply_comment_id=945986413522", "anchor": "fb-945819602812_945986413522", "service": "fb", "text": "→ And \"youse guys\" from some parts of Pennsylvania, I understand.", "timestamp": "1529075365"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945819602812&reply_comment_id=946000794702", "anchor": "fb-945819602812_946000794702", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Angela Not \"all y'all\"?", "timestamp": "1529083307"}, {"author": "Angela", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945819602812&reply_comment_id=946000804682", "anchor": "fb-945819602812_946000804682", "service": "fb", "text": "→ sometimes!", "timestamp": "1529083346"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945819602812&reply_comment_id=946000849592", "anchor": "fb-945819602812_946000849592", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Angela \"yins\" or \"you'uns\" are the PA equivalents I'm familiar with. \"Youse\" is from the Bronx, AFAIK.", "timestamp": "1529083405"}, {"author": "Anna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945822851302", "anchor": "fb-945822851302", "service": "fb", "text": "I've heard that there is actually precedent for using the singular they in English, going back some time - like a couple or more centuries ago? I don't know. I know it's in line with our dropping the familiar form of you. I'd be super fine with dropping he/she, etc... and switching to a gender neutral, all-inclusive \"they\".", "timestamp": "1528982252"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945822851302&reply_comment_id=945823544912", "anchor": "fb-945822851302_945823544912", "service": "fb", "text": "→ It's been used as a singular for a long time. My single concern with language use is clarity of meaning, and I think it fails at that in any context where asking \"which they\" is not trivial. That includes online discussions that are already being cluttered up by idiots posting \"following\" or \".\"", "timestamp": "1528982961"}, {"author": "Sophia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945822851302&reply_comment_id=945823904192", "anchor": "fb-945822851302_945823904192", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Singular \"they\" has been used informally, especially in verbal communication, for a long time. I think the big switch we're seeing now (in addition to some people starting to use \"they\" as a personal pronoun) is that singular \"they\" is making its way into more formal and written contexts. I agree with Kiran that it requires some additional thought in a written context to make use of \"they\" clear. (Though I'm totally in favor of it.)", "timestamp": "1528983268"}, {"author": "Anna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945822851302&reply_comment_id=945825570852", "anchor": "fb-945822851302_945825570852", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Kiran I often find that pronouns lead to all kinds of confusion in writing whether male, female, or neutral. Using \"it\" and \"that\" becomes incredibly confusing, after a time. If a written passage refers to two people of the same gender, the same type of confusion amounts. Not sure what the solution is.", "timestamp": "1528983925"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945822851302&reply_comment_id=945827337312", "anchor": "fb-945822851302_945827337312", "service": "fb", "text": "→ There's very old precedent for some forms, with antecedents like \"everyone\" or \"someone\". I don't believe there's old precedent for antecedents like \"my friend\" or specific names.
In this post and my 2012 one I'm arguing that there's a continuum of usage, where some usages are pretty widely accepted and others still feel weird even to strong singular they proponents.", "timestamp": "1528984832"}, {"author": "Jen", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945822851302&reply_comment_id=945829767442", "anchor": "fb-945822851302_945829767442", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Coming from a philosophy background, I feel like, if it's getting confusing just use lowercase italic letters to distinguish individuals: individual a, individual b and so on. Whenever the pronouns get confusing, switch back to the arbitrary letter-names. Of course that might sound weird in a non-philosophical context.", "timestamp": "1528986720"}, {"author": "Micah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945822851302&reply_comment_id=945834458042", "anchor": "fb-945822851302_945834458042", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman It's my impression that words like 'everyone' aren't antecedents; they're quantifiers, for which the pronoun is really a bound variable and hence it actually has a fundamentally different semantic function. That explains why 'they' is indeed the natural word for native speakers to use in such contexts - even if the gender of the group so covered is known to be male or female - but have trouble with a true singular they. (This is one piece of the puzzle you're helping us sort out.)", "timestamp": "1528988477"}, {"author": "Lauren", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945822851302&reply_comment_id=945840805322", "anchor": "fb-945822851302_945840805322", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jen hahahaha oh nooooo I feel like that wouldn't go over very well with non nerds! also, I've been trying to get people to switch to using longer names for their single letter math variables...", "timestamp": "1528991929"}, {"author": "Laura", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945822851302&reply_comment_id=945849338222", "anchor": "fb-945822851302_945849338222", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The most confusing part of the change for me is when \"they\" is used for a singular person whom I can picture in my mind. \"Someone is coming to pick up the chair. I don't know what time they'll be here\" is fine in my brain. \"Mary is coming to pick up the chair. I don't know what time they'll be here\" immediately makes me wonder, who is Mary bringing?
To be clear, I have no moralistic or linguistic objection to singular \"they,\" and I will certainly do my best to use it when requested. It just happens to tie my brain in knots, at least at the moment.", "timestamp": "1528996917"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945822851302&reply_comment_id=945850845202", "anchor": "fb-945822851302_945850845202", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Laura What about intermediate ones like, \"my bandmate is going to come borrow our keyboard\"? I know their gender, but it's still less specific than naming them.
(Also, \"mary\" signals female in a way that \"someone\" or \"my bandmate\" doesn't)", "timestamp": "1528997723"}, {"author": "Laura", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945822851302&reply_comment_id=945851004882", "anchor": "fb-945822851302_945851004882", "service": "fb", "text": "→ If I as the listener know the person's gender, it's still confusing to me. It's a matter of the mental picture your mention of the person creates in my brain.", "timestamp": "1528997798"}, {"author": "Jim", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945874647502", "anchor": "fb-945874647502", "service": "fb", "text": "I think the last category could use an extra split: compare
(a) Look at that careless woman spilling beer all over their kid!
(b) Look at careless Anna spilling beer all over their kid!
To me, (a) seems wrong and (b) seems fine. The rule that would split them is that gendered pronouns are required if they share a referent in a sentence together with a gendered common noun. So (using the usual convention of a * for grammatically-incorrect-sounding sentences):
They are a sorcerer.
He is a sorcerer.
She is a sorcerer.
*He is a sorceress.
She is a sorceress.
*They are a sorceress.", "timestamp": "1529004372"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945874647502&reply_comment_id=945890620492", "anchor": "fb-945874647502_945890620492", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'm confused, isn't \"woman\" a gendered common noun?
(I agree that names sound worse with singular they though)
EDIT: I was reading your comment backwards", "timestamp": "1529012051"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1529012678"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1529012770"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945874647502&reply_comment_id=945895820072", "anchor": "fb-945874647502_945895820072", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"actress\" isn't just gendered female, it draws special attention to gender since \"actor\" can be neutral.", "timestamp": "1529014157"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945874647502&reply_comment_id=945895850012", "anchor": "fb-945874647502_945895850012", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Though I don't think that's contributing here", "timestamp": "1529014173"}, {"author": "Jillian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945874647502&reply_comment_id=945912232182", "anchor": "fb-945874647502_945912232182", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Weird, I think (a) sounds better than (b). But I've been practicing my singular they on a sibling for the last few years so my norms may have shifted. And I think it's \"careless Anna\" that sounds clunky, not the they.", "timestamp": "1529021946"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945874647502&reply_comment_id=945917641342", "anchor": "fb-945874647502_945917641342", "service": "fb", "text": "→ (a) also sounds much better than (b) to me", "timestamp": "1529024252"}, {"author": "Cecile", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945874647502&reply_comment_id=946106951962", "anchor": "fb-945874647502_946106951962", "service": "fb", "text": "→ What about \"that woman dresses their kid carelessly\" v. \"Anna dresses their kid carelessly\"", "timestamp": "1529111003"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945874647502&reply_comment_id=946107036792", "anchor": "fb-945874647502_946107036792", "service": "fb", "text": "→ To me, the first sounds totally fine, while the latter makes me think Anna goes by 'they'", "timestamp": "1529111068"}, {"author": "Cecile", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945874647502&reply_comment_id=946107336192", "anchor": "fb-945874647502_946107336192", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Does the first one make you infer that the woman is not a single parent?", "timestamp": "1529111239"}, {"author": "Cecile", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945874647502&reply_comment_id=946107520822", "anchor": "fb-945874647502_946107520822", "service": "fb", "text": "→ For the first one I can hear it either as a singular or plural pronoun depending on how much emphasis is placed on it. To get singular it has to be said quickly with shwa. If it's with the \"correct\" vowel it sounds plural to me", "timestamp": "1529111323"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945874647502&reply_comment_id=946116403022", "anchor": "fb-945874647502_946116403022", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The reading where 'woman' and 'their' referred to different people didn't even occur to me until you suggested it", "timestamp": "1529114709"}, {"author": "Anna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945883504752", "anchor": "fb-945883504752", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm so good with option A. A lot of this, I feel, is simply a matter of what we are accustomed to.", "timestamp": "1529007977"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/945815560912?comment_id=945891553622", "anchor": "fb-945891553622", "service": "fb", "text": "This is suddenly reminding me, in a way that prior discussions on the subject haven't, of the same issue with gender in the '60s, '70s, '80s, and still today.
At my first Real Job after graduating college, my first system design document came back covered with red marks from one of the (only slightly) older engineers, because I had used \"s/he\" to refer to unknown engineers/clients/users, and the \"proper\" pronoun was \"he\".
My biggest objection to \"they\" is people who don't know as much about language or philology as they think they do trying to retcon the use of the term in the modern fashion into the early history of English and claim that that justifies its use today (as opposed to saying that we've looked at a lot of possible terms and this seems to be the one with the fewest objections and the greatest similarity to existing structures)
I like the structure of your breakdown of uses.", "timestamp": "1529012815"}]}