{"items": [{"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901768252072?comment_id=901841899482", "anchor": "fb-901841899482", "service": "fb", "text": "Except that not everybody follows the palm-up/palm-down convention. (I don't, unless my partner wants to; since I learned to dance in a gender-free context, I never learned this behavior.)", "timestamp": "1506267843"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901768252072?comment_id=901841899482&reply_comment_id=901851769702", "anchor": "fb-901841899482_901851769702", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I can believe you don't follow it, but since that discussion I started paying attention at dances and looking at how people had their hands during long lines. Aside from very new dancers it's been universal.", "timestamp": "1506273114"}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901768252072?comment_id=901841899482&reply_comment_id=902228873982", "anchor": "fb-901841899482_902228873982", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think it's a solid convention, even at a gender-free dance. It's basically the only way to non-verbally know what to do when someone comes at you.", "timestamp": "1506457336"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901768252072?comment_id=901841899482&reply_comment_id=902229218292", "anchor": "fb-901841899482_902229218292", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I wonder if we're talking about the same thing here. I do of course use the \"standard\" hand position on a swing, but when lining up and taking hands four, I have to say that I haven't noticed the convention being followed consistently.
Oh, I see that Jeff said \"during long lines\". I haven;t noted it there particularly either. But maybe that's just me not noticing.", "timestamp": "1506457517"}, {"author": "Lauren", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901768252072?comment_id=901960262282", "anchor": "fb-901960262282", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm still curios about the word order phenomenon.
How did it come to be \"larks and ravens\" when \"ladies and gentlemen\" has been the word order for English speakers, in myriad contexts, for decades?
As I've never been to a Larks & Ravens community, I still have to ask for a reminder sometimes:
\"Is it ladies are larks, or folks on the left are larks?\"", "timestamp": "1506317659"}, {"author": "Lauren", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901768252072?comment_id=901960262282&reply_comment_id=901960676452", "anchor": "fb-901960262282_901960676452", "service": "fb", "text": "→ https://www.youtube.com/embed/ysf3GW-PASA?start=38&end=49", "timestamp": "1506318275"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901768252072?comment_id=901960262282&reply_comment_id=901978196342", "anchor": "fb-901960262282_901978196342", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"I'm still curios about the word order phenomenon. \"
My guess is it's a syllable thing? \"Foo and Fleeble\" sounds better than \"Fleeble and Foo\". So we also say \"Men and Women\" not generally \"Women and Men\".", "timestamp": "1506338699"}, {"author": "Renee", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901768252072?comment_id=901960262282&reply_comment_id=902011449702", "anchor": "fb-901960262282_902011449702", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I can answer this! We still like iambic pentameter in English- an even beat of stressed and unstressed syllables. 'Men' is one syllable, stressed. 'And' is one syllable, unstressed. 'Women' is two syllables, stressed on first, unstressed on second. So, we have: \"MEN and WOM-en\" vs \"WOM-en and MEN.\" See how in the second option, the unstressed syllables are clustered in the center and it sounds a bit awkward? Larks and Ravens follows the same pattern.", "timestamp": "1506356743"}, {"author": "Renee", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901768252072?comment_id=901960262282&reply_comment_id=902011569462", "anchor": "fb-901960262282_902011569462", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Ladies and gentlemen is a little different, as gentlemen is 3 syllables. I'm not 100% on how gentlemen is stressed, if it's GENT-le-men, you can see that \"GENT-le-men and LAD-ies\" has an even larger hole of unstressed syllables in the center than \"LAD-ies and GENT-le-men.\" But this one can probably be argued?", "timestamp": "1506356829"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901768252072?comment_id=901960262282&reply_comment_id=902014892802", "anchor": "fb-901960262282_902014892802", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"LADies and GENtlemen\" is a pair of dactyls (stress-unstress-unstress) which sounds better than the reverse.
Compare \"ravens and larkabies\" to \"larkabies and ravens\"", "timestamp": "1506358533"}, {"author": "Lauren", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901768252072?comment_id=901960262282&reply_comment_id=902022013532", "anchor": "fb-901960262282_902022013532", "service": "fb", "text": "→ So, how do communities quickly, easily convey the information when the syllabic preferences of English speakers invert the two options when speaking in historic style of the roles (ladies and gentlemen) vs. what is currently coastal style (larks and ravens)?
Or does nobody care, and people just line up and don't worry about it? That would be cool.
I was working on this quickly with a midwest caller who was headed on tour, asked to call a larks & ravens dance. Sure! No problem! Trouble is, when sitting down to prepare...nobody clarified which role is which!
We had to take a bit to look up some videos, ask around, etc, and figure it out, so updated cards would be correct. That's what brings up the question.
(I think the terminology is great, saves us from the dreaded tyranny of sweaty arm bands. Just trying to figure out how to make proliferation and communication easier across states.)", "timestamp": "1506360976"}, {"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901768252072?comment_id=901960262282&reply_comment_id=902026484572", "anchor": "fb-901960262282_902026484572", "service": "fb", "text": "→ To me \"Ravens and Larks\" flows much more naturally!", "timestamp": "1506362354"}, {"author": "Renee", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901768252072?comment_id=901960262282&reply_comment_id=902026744052", "anchor": "fb-901960262282_902026744052", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman yes, exactly. wasn't going to look up all the names for syllable combos during my workday!", "timestamp": "1506362590"}, {"author": "Lauren", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901768252072?comment_id=901960262282&reply_comment_id=902027083372", "anchor": "fb-901960262282_902027083372", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The root of my curiosity is in the choice of order for transitioning from historic terms to modern preference. If it just is what it is, and however it flows people say, \"Eh, you'll figure it out eventually,\" that's fine.
But, as the roles are not immediately apparent by the words themselves (as previously mentioned, 'L' could represent either left or lady, one would not know intuitively), I wondered if that was a choice or not.
From what I've read here, it seems the chosen terms and the word order are in no way connected to convey information to the crowd, which is fine. I just wondered if there was an intention or not.
It would seem word order is more about flow of speech than passing on information, which answers my question.", "timestamp": "1506362860"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901768252072?comment_id=901960262282&reply_comment_id=902038161172", "anchor": "fb-901960262282_902038161172", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Lauren: Our caller welcome doc [1] has:
\"We use \"Larks\" and \"Ravens\" for the role names. The idea is, if the couple is standing together as if they're promenading or have just finished a swing, the 'L'ark is on the 'L'eft and the 'R'aven is on the 'R'ight.\"
[1] http://www.bidadance.org/caller-welcome", "timestamp": "1506367481"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901768252072?comment_id=901960262282&reply_comment_id=902038430632", "anchor": "fb-901960262282_902038430632", "service": "fb", "text": "→ All the alternate terms people are considering match Gents/Ladies in terms of syllable count, and they're all presented with the left hand role first and then the right hand role:
Leads/Follows
Larks/Ravens
Jets/Rubies
Oaks/Maples
Ports/Starboards
etc", "timestamp": "1506367583"}, {"author": "Sophia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901768252072?comment_id=901960262282&reply_comment_id=902039418652", "anchor": "fb-901960262282_902039418652", "service": "fb", "text": "→ My experience in contra context is that people using gendered role names often say \"gents and ladies.\"
Not sure if this is a helpful comment.", "timestamp": "1506367861"}, {"author": "Lauren", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901768252072?comment_id=902023400752", "anchor": "fb-902023400752", "service": "fb", "text": "We teach these hands at our local beginner workshop, as a lot of folks dance both roles around these parts. We're still in historic term-land 'round here, but our intro mini-class teaches people both:
-how to ask for a dance, and
-how to indicate which role you are with hands.
So, the 'L' and 'R' shape, if your community uses those terms, is brilliant! Huzzah!", "timestamp": "1506361148"}]}