{"items": [{"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753739467942", "anchor": "fb-753739467942", "service": "fb", "text": "Hmm, I'm not sold on this metaphor. I don't mind getting cold calls from recruiters that I can identify from caller ID, and send straight to voice mail, aka \"ignore\"; what I don't like is having to talk to a recruiter, because (a) that requires more time and energy than just ignoring them; (b) there's some chance that I might some day *want* to work for them, or the firm they're representing.
Now, I'm a big white cis male guy, so no one catcalls me, except the occasionally (once a decade) person who shouts things about my long hair and beard (which I ignore), so I don't have a lot of personal experience with that, but my suspicion is that the personal-safety thing has a lot more to do with it than the unwanted part. If people shouted at me on the street saying \"hey, come work at Google!\" I would in fact just ignore them; whereas if they said \"hey, nice ass, and if you don't talk to me, I'm gonna come over there and kick it\", and started moving towards me when I tried to ignore them, I'd find that a lot more upsetting.", "timestamp": "1445280628"}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753739582712", "anchor": "fb-753739582712", "service": "fb", "text": "Oh, I was going to add: Whereas if someone on the street catcalls hypothetical female me and says \"hey, show me your tits!\", I don't have to worry that if I ignore them, I might alienate someone who I might actually want to show my tits to some day.", "timestamp": "1445280726"}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740036802", "anchor": "fb-753740036802", "service": "fb", "text": "Also, just to be super clear about this, I am *not at all* saying that being cold-called by recruiters is worse than being catcalled by assholes on the street; just that the reasons they're annoying seem pretty different to me.", "timestamp": "1445281008"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1445281173"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740296282&reply_comment_id=753750630572", "anchor": "fb-753740296282_753750630572", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Yes; I characterized piece of the hacker news worldview as \"privileged complaining\".", "timestamp": "1445287936"}, {"author": "Ezra", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740411052", "anchor": "fb-753740411052", "service": "fb", "text": "Hey Jeff, I think you're missing an important aspect of this comparison. People who dislike recruiters dislike them because they find them annoying. People who dislike cat-callers dislike them because they find them threatening, rude, abhorrent. Also, your comparison misses the power dynamics. Recruiters are not trying to impose their power onto you when they recruit you. Cat-callers don't want sex, they want control.", "timestamp": "1445281270"}, {"author": "Ezra", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740411052&reply_comment_id=753743045772", "anchor": "fb-753740411052_753743045772", "service": "fb", "text": "→ For the record, I assume your intent was to provide a way for a largely white, largely male, largely high privilege group of people (desired tech workers) to get a sense of why people don't like being cat-called by giving them an analogy they could understand. Which is a noble intent, but I think it didn't work. ;/", "timestamp": "1445283132"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740411052&reply_comment_id=753744442972", "anchor": "fb-753740411052_753744442972", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Ezra: \" your intent was to provide a way for a largely white, largely male, largely high privilege group of people (desired tech workers) to get a sense of why people don't like being cat-called by giving them an analogy they could understand\"
Yes.
\"I think it didn't work\"
Well, it may have. Unfortunately I confused enough people who aren't in that group into thinking I was arguing that the comparison ran the other way, and they strongly and correctly disagree.", "timestamp": "1445284277"}, {"author": "Christopher", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740411052&reply_comment_id=753749208422", "anchor": "fb-753740411052_753749208422", "service": "fb", "text": "→ How do you know what catcallers want?", "timestamp": "1445287241"}, {"author": "Ezra", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740411052&reply_comment_id=753750540752", "anchor": "fb-753740411052_753750540752", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Ha. Not walking into that trick question.", "timestamp": "1445287849"}, {"author": "Ezra", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740411052&reply_comment_id=753750600632", "anchor": "fb-753740411052_753750600632", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff - don't equivalencies have to run equally in both directions to be equivalencies?", "timestamp": "1445287896"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740411052&reply_comment_id=753751014802", "anchor": "fb-753740411052_753751014802", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Ezra: I wrote \"these are definitely not equivalent\"; I don't think there's an equivalency here.", "timestamp": "1445288222"}, {"author": "Ezra", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740411052&reply_comment_id=753751079672", "anchor": "fb-753740411052_753751079672", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Huh? I was just responding to your comment. From above: \"Unfortunately I confused enough people who aren't in that group into thinking I was arguing that the equivalency ran the other way, and they strongly and correctly disagree.\"", "timestamp": "1445288288"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740411052&reply_comment_id=753751144542", "anchor": "fb-753740411052_753751144542", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Ah, sorry! Yes, I shouldn't have used the word \"equivalency\" in my comment above, and I've now changed it to \"comparison\".", "timestamp": "1445288353"}, {"author": "Christopher", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740411052&reply_comment_id=753758035732", "anchor": "fb-753740411052_753758035732", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Ezra, It's not a trick question. You made a fact claim about the motivations of group to which you do not belong (\"Cat-callers don't want sex, they want control.\"), and I asked for the evidence of your fact claim.", "timestamp": "1445291965"}, {"author": "Ezra", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740411052&reply_comment_id=753759882032", "anchor": "fb-753740411052_753759882032", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Ah. Sorry -- I thought you were probing to see if I would admit being a power-hungry cat-caller myself. I don't have any sources to site. I believe that interpretation of street harassment - that it's about power, not sex - is a standard one and it seems true to me. I'm open to being wrong though. What's your view?", "timestamp": "1445293340"}, {"author": "Christopher", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740411052&reply_comment_id=753760490812", "anchor": "fb-753740411052_753760490812", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I always took it at face value that they wanted sex, or maybe even just the attention of a person they found sexually desirable. And that the intimidation and insults that came when they didn't get it were their violent response to not getting the sexual attention they wanted. Taking another step to decide that the sexual comments are a vehicle for a deeper motivation about power and control seems to violate Occam's Razor -- unless there is evidence. I don't have any evidence to support my position, but I can't find anyone else with evidence for theirs either.", "timestamp": "1445293637"}, {"author": "Ezra", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740411052&reply_comment_id=753760890012", "anchor": "fb-753740411052_753760890012", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Oh! Funny -- I've always been told it was about power, not sex. Here's two things to support that, which I've learned from talking to women who have been harassed in this way, although I'm sure there are people on this thread who have way more convincing facts. 1. Women i've talked to who have been cat-called say it feels intimidating, not necessarily dirty in an unwanted way. 2. It happens even if they intentionally dress, etc. in a way that would generally be thought of as less sexy. For example, wearing men's sweat pants and an oversized winter coat.", "timestamp": "1445293976"}, {"author": "Christopher", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740411052&reply_comment_id=753762107572", "anchor": "fb-753740411052_753762107572", "service": "fb", "text": "→ But people honestly misinterpret each other the time (like you misinterpreted my earlier question). A woman perceiving that for her she feels intimidated doesn't mean that the man feels he is trying to intimidate someone.
I doubt any of us really want to spend a huge amount of time hanging out with catcallers, but I think these discussions are going to fail unless we actually get some evidence-based understanding of what's going on in these men's heads. Why are they catcalling? Do they think what they are doing is catcalling? What is their \"success rate\"? Who are these men? Not all men catcall -- what differentiates them?
Same thing for women: the most frequently heard objectors to catcalling appear to be young, educated, professional, progressive women. Surely other demographies of women experience catcalling as well -- what are their thoughts? What percent of women enjoy being catcalled (Jeff cited at least one -- is she a random outlier?)? Do women not mind certain advances but do mind others?
And what if women catcalled men? Would that change anything?
These are important questions and google is coming up dry.We need more data.", "timestamp": "1445294694"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740411052&reply_comment_id=753763095592", "anchor": "fb-753740411052_753763095592", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Christopher: I do know one woman who wishes she were catcalled more and says she thinks she doesn't get much because she looks unattractive in an \"immature\" way. But she's also a huge obnoxious troll who's intentionally mean to people she disagrees with so I'm not going to tag her.", "timestamp": "1445295258"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740411052&reply_comment_id=753763325132", "anchor": "fb-753740411052_753763325132", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Ezra: \"It happens even if they intentionally dress, etc. in a way that would generally be thought of as less sexy.\"
It would be interesting to try to quantify that. As a research project, hire people to walk through areas where catcalling is prevalent in various outfits and see how causal clothing is.", "timestamp": "1445295391"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1445300129"}, {"author": "Christopher", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740411052&reply_comment_id=753774278182", "anchor": "fb-753740411052_753774278182", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I take your point, but if you walk in to the ice cream parlor saying, \"Hey, where's your eggplant? Why won't you give it to me?\" And get belligerent, I am inclined to think you maybe don't have a better way of finding eggplants.
I stand by my earlier statement: we need data, not speculation.", "timestamp": "1445301472"}, {"author": "Ezra", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740411052&reply_comment_id=753774567602", "anchor": "fb-753740411052_753774567602", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Elliot your logic is impeccable. Your metaphor... odd.", "timestamp": "1445301633"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1445302388"}, {"author": "Angela", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740411052&reply_comment_id=753846588272", "anchor": "fb-753740411052_753846588272", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Some catcallers visibly display enjoyment when their target displays discomfort. This suggests that, for them, that was in fact the goal (and not sexual attention, which, as has been pointed out, is highly unlikely to result from that interaction).", "timestamp": "1445353263"}, {"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740650572", "anchor": "fb-753740650572", "service": "fb", "text": "I would put recruiter cold-calling more in the category of getting junk mail or spam. Annoying but not at all threatening. Catcalling is more like having an intimidating stranger come up to you and say \"Nice watch you've got there.\"", "timestamp": "1445281433"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740685502", "anchor": "fb-753740685502", "service": "fb", "text": "\"What do you do to prevent sexual assault?\"
\"Nothing.\"
\"What do women do to prevent sexual assault?\" ...", "timestamp": "1445281480"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1445369189"}, {"author": "Margot", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740690492", "anchor": "fb-753740690492", "service": "fb", "text": "This is not an analogy. Catcalling reduces women to their sexual desirability to men. It is a reminder that women's value relies on their attractiveness *to men* more than any other attribute. It is a misogynistic reinforcement of our male-dominated culture.
Cold calling by recruiters is a message to the recipient that she/he is a desirable employee. Not a problem that anyone should find demeaning, threatening, sexual, or scary. Saying 'thank you, goodbye' to a cold-caller could burn a bridge. Saying 'thank you, goodbye' to a cat caller could get you at best expletives tossed your way and at worst, raped. Not at all equivalent.", "timestamp": "1445281487"}, {"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740690492&reply_comment_id=753741229412", "anchor": "fb-753740690492_753741229412", "service": "fb", "text": "→ It's a false equivalency that is demeaning to those who experience harassment. The risk of missing out on a good thing is much less traumatic that the risk of experiencing an awful thing.", "timestamp": "1445281768"}, {"author": "Margot", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740690492&reply_comment_id=753741304262", "anchor": "fb-753740690492_753741304262", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Not to mention that the catcalling is already awful without the perceived threat being carried out. Whereas the threat of responding to a cold-calling recruiter is a job!", "timestamp": "1445281864"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740690492&reply_comment_id=753742077712", "anchor": "fb-753740690492_753742077712", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff did clearly write that he wasn't equivocating, but only saying they were similar.
Whether or not it's insensitive to say they're similar is another matter.", "timestamp": "1445282444"}, {"author": "Margot", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740690492&reply_comment_id=753742606652", "anchor": "fb-753740690492_753742606652", "service": "fb", "text": "→ OK, so he didn't say equivalent. But he said 'consider that they may be more similar than you had thought'.
No, they are not more similar than I thought. And in Jeff's post the worst thing he says about unwanted cold calling is that it is 'frustrating'. Frustrating doesn't begin to touch the belittlement, anger and fear of being the recipient of catcalling.", "timestamp": "1445282831"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1445283439"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740690492&reply_comment_id=753743704452", "anchor": "fb-753740690492_753743704452", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Elliot - males who have no concept of male privilege, apparently ... :/", "timestamp": "1445283686"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740690492&reply_comment_id=753755331152", "anchor": "fb-753740690492_753755331152", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Elliot: \"Does anyone ever want to be catcalled?\"
It's possible to find at least one person who does, at which point you can get them to write up a properly controversial article that will drive lots of clicks:
\"Walking confidently past a mass of men, making eye contact and flashing a smile shows you as you are: self-possessed and playful. The wolf whistles that follow will send your ego soaring.\"
-- http://nypost.com/.../enough-sanctimony-ladies-catcalls.../", "timestamp": "1445290845"}, {"author": "Christopher", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740690492&reply_comment_id=753758889022", "anchor": "fb-753740690492_753758889022", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff, have you found any good polls (or any at all, good or bad) on what percent of women like or dislike catcalls? I can't find anything either way, which seems peculiar for an issue that seems to be on the mind lately. I think that there may be some trends that emerge based on education, political leaning, and/or socioeconomic class, but I don't know.", "timestamp": "1445292740"}, {"author": "Elissa", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740690492&reply_comment_id=753763938902", "anchor": "fb-753740690492_753763938902", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I usually don't mind being catcalled and am occasionally flattered by it. I'm pretty ordinary-looking and usually don't present very girly, so it doesn't happen to me all that often. (Other people who have different experiences are perfectly justified in hating it; this is not a \"stop whining\".)", "timestamp": "1445295748"}, {"author": "Sam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740690492&reply_comment_id=753868459442", "anchor": "fb-753740690492_753868459442", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Margot They probably aren't any more similar than you thought. Jeff tried to be very clear that the target audience of his post is people who get lots of cold calls from recruiters and don't understand why cat-calling is bad. If the analogy doesn't work for you, fine, it's probably because it wasn't aimed at you.", "timestamp": "1445368189"}, {"author": "Margot", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740690492&reply_comment_id=753872211922", "anchor": "fb-753740690492_753872211922", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sam, I was responding the to original post which has been superseded by. Jeff's updated and heavily edited post. As I anticipated, since he didn't leave the original text my comment seems to be responding to things he didn't say.
If you read the full comment thread you can see the progression of the conversation and Jeff himself acknowledging that he didn't identify his target audience in his original text.", "timestamp": "1445370602"}, {"author": "Sam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740690492&reply_comment_id=753872835672", "anchor": "fb-753740690492_753872835672", "service": "fb", "text": "→ ah, sorry, nevermind", "timestamp": "1445371022"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740690492&reply_comment_id=753874801732", "anchor": "fb-753740690492_753874801732", "service": "fb", "text": "→ FB will show you the edit history of this post if you want to see what it looked like earlier.
The biggest change I made was pulling the blog post over to fb in full instead of just as a link, but I also did some rewording in response to people's suggestions here.", "timestamp": "1445372665"}, {"author": "Margot", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753740690492&reply_comment_id=753875131072", "anchor": "fb-753740690492_753875131072", "service": "fb", "text": "→ To be clear, I was responding to the full blog post on the external site. AFAIK, this text is no longer available.", "timestamp": "1445372968"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1445282097"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753743754352", "anchor": "fb-753743754352", "service": "fb", "text": "It looks like I wrote something where people read me as saying the opposite of what I intended to communicate. Sorry! I just pulled the second paragraph out into the FB summary, which I think might help?", "timestamp": "1445283732"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753743754352&reply_comment_id=753753699422", "anchor": "fb-753743754352_753753699422", "service": "fb", "text": "→ People don't handle 'a fortiori' arguments well in my experience. They often call 'false equivalence' even where there's no claimed equivalence and where the lack of equivalence strengthens the argument.", "timestamp": "1445289850"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753743754352&reply_comment_id=753754198422", "anchor": "fb-753743754352_753754198422", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I've now pulled the full post into the fb summary, because there tend to be a lot of people who only read that part.", "timestamp": "1445290175"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753744218422", "anchor": "fb-753744218422", "service": "fb", "text": "The intended audience of this post was people who dismiss catcalling because they think they would enjoy it, but at the same time use harassment-like language to complain about tech recruiters. The overlap between these two groups is substantial.
I considered writing this at the top of the post, but then people who dismiss catcalling would skip the post.", "timestamp": "1445284062"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1445284594"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753744218422&reply_comment_id=753746448952", "anchor": "fb-753744218422_753746448952", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Elliot: I have Lily and don't have my laptop, but I'll change that wording in the direction you suggested as soon as I get home.", "timestamp": "1445285049"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753744218422&reply_comment_id=753753958902", "anchor": "fb-753744218422_753753958902", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I've now updated the post to explicitly say that.", "timestamp": "1445289939"}, {"author": "Ryan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753746683482", "anchor": "fb-753746683482", "service": "fb", "text": "I think that there is a point to be made that uninvited advances can creep people out or be super-annoying if not handled well (by the initiator, not the recipient). The part that I think this misses is the part where I'm never 100% sure if the guy who's catcalling me will stop when I move away, or whether I will have to intentionally go out of my way to lose him, or (hopefully not) have to outrun him. With recruiters, I can hang up on them and the interaction is over (or delete their email), and perhaps block their number/email. With catcallers, I need to physically remove myself from their presence and the barriers I will need to overcome to do so (e.g., get around him to the exit of the subway, intentionally walk by the police department even though it's not on my way home) vary by incident. Given the very real possibility of physical harm, I can't just \"ignore\" them like I can a recruiter -- I can pretend to, but my safety requires that I know where the harassers are and can ascertain that I am moving further from them.", "timestamp": "1445285190"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753749956922", "anchor": "fb-753749956922", "service": "fb", "text": "Somewhat off-topic, but this video helped me to understand what the word \"objectification\" meant and why it was bad. http://www.nytimes.com/.../rent-a-foreigner-in-china.html", "timestamp": "1445287558"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753754138542", "anchor": "fb-753754138542", "service": "fb", "text": "It's really weird it was that these people with lots of economic privilege get annoyed at something most people would like to have more of, and then go on to accuse people who object to street harassment of humblebragging!", "timestamp": "1445290100"}, {"author": "Christopher", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753755450912", "anchor": "fb-753755450912", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, I'm still not sure you are achieving your goal. The similarities of catcalling and cold calling is that it is unsolicited contact. Evidently, not everyone finds all forms of unsolicited contact objectionable. People can and do object to unpleasant unsolicited contact while also enjoying unsolicited pleasant contact. The problem is that folks differ on which they like.", "timestamp": "1445290911"}, {"author": "Jonathan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753755730352", "anchor": "fb-753755730352", "service": "fb", "text": "Google is sort of ridiculous in how persistent they are with me - they call me 1-2 times a month even after I've asked them to stop, but I agree this doesn't seem like an even comparison. I've had people make unwanted advances also, and the emotions I would associate with the two are not at all the same.", "timestamp": "1445291247"}, {"author": "Erica", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753757955892", "anchor": "fb-753757955892", "service": "fb", "text": "Also, you say \"Someone who hardly knows you says they like you, they'd be willing to commit to you, and wants you to give them a chance.\", but even IF that was what was going on in street harassment (as opposed to the more likely scenario where they are subtly exerting power over me, or trying to gain status with their friends, etc), they are judging based SOLELY on what I look like. I do not want to be judged on what I look like.
With recruiters, they presumably have information (where you work, what your skills are, etc) about you that is relevant to the thing they want from you. With street harassers, EVEN IF they were actually interested, they are judging women based on the wrong/useless information, thus solidifying the idea that a woman's worth is solely in her appearance.", "timestamp": "1445291895"}, {"author": "Christopher", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753757955892&reply_comment_id=753759872052", "anchor": "fb-753757955892_753759872052", "service": "fb", "text": "→ coldcallers fo ra company presumably only care about your ability to add value to the company. They don't care about your soul, values, or needs. catcallers presumably only care about your body. They don't care about your soul, values, or needs.
I agree that catcalling has an \"implicit violence\" aspect that makes catcalling very different and damaging in other ways.
But in your comment above, the only difference is that you want to be judged based on your professional attractiveness more than you want to be judged based on your physical attractiveness. Maybe some others attach more value to and locate their indentity more in their physical appearance than whatever money they can generate for some random company?", "timestamp": "1445293326"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753758140522", "anchor": "fb-753758140522", "service": "fb", "text": "I think people are also being disturbed by the apparent analogy with a case where the 'harassment' is due to the subject being in high demand (high power) and the harasser having low power. It would be good if one could present a case where the harassment is occurring because of the *low* power of the person being harassed but, I posit, it will be hard to do that. (That is unless you just describe a straight out case of insult/bullying, in which case the analogy really loses its pedagogical point- there's little point in bothering with an analogy if the point is just \"street harassment is bad because as well as the attention there's also explicit insults or the implicit threat of violence\").
NB the squid analogy with impoverished beggars presents the best (most extreme) example of unwanted attention being disturbing despite the low power of the harassers- and there the analogy bears the advantage that there actually is the threat of violence from the harassers (even though the harassee is in super-high demand). http://squid314.livejournal.com/327849.html
http://squid314.livejournal.com/327957.html", "timestamp": "1445292036"}, {"author": "Erica", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753758145512", "anchor": "fb-753758145512", "service": "fb", "text": "Relatedly, I absolutely HATE HATE HATE okc messages that are along the lines of \"I want to date you because I think you're pretty\" (which isn't what they explicitly say. It's more along the lines of \"You're cute! Want to grab coffee sometime?\" or something like that). It has a similar flavor to street harassment for me.", "timestamp": "1445292038"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753758459882", "anchor": "fb-753758459882", "service": "fb", "text": "Separate point:
People are leaning rather heavily on the distinction between being singled out due to one's body vs being singled out for one's labour power. This distinction does not seem to help here.", "timestamp": "1445292332"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1445292816"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753758459882&reply_comment_id=753760455882", "anchor": "fb-753758459882_753760455882", "service": "fb", "text": "→ What: the former being objectionable and the latter not.
Why: inter alia, the latter is a (the?) paradigmatic example of exploitation and of reification.", "timestamp": "1445293617"}, {"author": "Erica", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753758459882&reply_comment_id=753763844092", "anchor": "fb-753758459882_753763844092", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Your labor power is actually the relevant characteristic for job recruiters. Your looks are not the relevant characteristic for people who want to date you.", "timestamp": "1445295668"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1445295915"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1445296047"}, {"author": "Sam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753758459882&reply_comment_id=753766498772", "anchor": "fb-753758459882_753766498772", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Erica, I think you underestimate how much looks matter to the vast majority of guys you will ever date.", "timestamp": "1445297494"}, {"author": "Erica", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753758459882&reply_comment_id=753766892982", "anchor": "fb-753758459882_753766892982", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Which is why I'm not upset to be gaining weight, so that those people can filter themselves out. It's also part of the reason I cut my hair, and it's the reason I use a picture of my dog as a profile pic. And it's a big reason why I don't really date guys anymore.
Also, I'm a poly, atheist, feminist with weird hobbies and interests. Most those guys who come on to me really wouldn't want to date me once they knew anything about me.", "timestamp": "1445297708"}, {"author": "Erica", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753758459882&reply_comment_id=753768704352", "anchor": "fb-753758459882_753768704352", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff- Lots of women date men for money too, but I bet guys still wouldn't like it if they were getting constantly propositioned by well-armed prostitutes.", "timestamp": "1445298795"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753758459882&reply_comment_id=753769033692", "anchor": "fb-753758459882_753769033692", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Erica: You don't want to date people who are mostly interested in looks, and neither do I, but \"your looks are not the relevant characteristic for people who want to date you\" is much too strong for the general population.
(I would agree with it if there was a \"should not be\", though.)", "timestamp": "1445299005"}, {"author": "Erica", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753758459882&reply_comment_id=753769173412", "anchor": "fb-753758459882_753769173412", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'm tapping out. I don't really need this thread to remind me that men are pigs. It's something that's been hammered in to me since I was a teen.", "timestamp": "1445299193"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1445299225"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1445300419"}, {"author": "Erica", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753758459882&reply_comment_id=753771843062", "anchor": "fb-753758459882_753771843062", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Elliot- See above re: tapping out of this convo", "timestamp": "1445300506"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1445301108"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753758459882&reply_comment_id=753832601302", "anchor": "fb-753758459882_753832601302", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Going back to the actual question...
Elliot Read \"Labor power is the paradigmatic example of exploitation and reification if you hang out with old-school Marxists, but not for modern SJW's.\"
Insofar as that's true as a descriptive claim about the beliefs of SJWs, SJWs are just wrong. Being singled out for your labour power IS an obvious example of someone being singled out and reductively valued for an isolated characteristic precisely so that someone else can extract value from you. Relying on a distinction between valuing someone for their body being bad and valuing someone for their labour market value being A-OK is a particularly obtuse line of argument. SJWs have offered no argument for thinking that that kind of singling out/valorising is acceptable whereas singling out/valorising someone because of their body is not.
(I think you're being a little unfair to \"modern SJWs\" though fwiw. Many (and basically all SJ theorists) maintain that they are engaged in a critique of capitalism and would not (or could not, by their own lights) make that argument).)
This is a great example of what I dislike about the SJW so-called Left though: most are almost completely ignorant about what actual leftists have argued throughout the years, so they happily engage in stupid arguments that don't make sense, undermine their own position and cut against actual anti-oppression. Indeed, most don't even know what actual feminists argue, which is why they make arguments that have been soundly criticised within feminism.", "timestamp": "1445342200"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1445370234"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753758459882&reply_comment_id=753875640052", "anchor": "fb-753758459882_753875640052", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"I didn't mean to be \"unfair\" to SJW's, since I am an SJW and the position I expressed is both my personal view and the view of a lot of other SJW's.\"
Yes, it's not yourself you're being unfair, it's all the SJWs who don't agree with that position, among which I count every major Social Justice theorist.
\"The discourse about objectification therefore centers on sexual objectification as the paradigmatic case.\"
Note that the (street harassment/recruitment) cases we're discussing are not necessarily *merely* about objectification- that would be stacking the deck by choosing one concept from the outset. It's about the rightness/wrongness of the two cases. The debate here has never been solely about objectification (hence the appeals above to other factors, like the implicit threat in street harassment- so other factors like exploitation are fair game). So appealing to the fact that street harassment is (putatively) about singling people out for their body whereas recruitment is singling people out for their labour power (or, often, just their body, but nm), will still do no good if the latter is still a famously egregiously problematic thing!
But even in terms of objectification alone, trying to draw a distinction between street harassment and recruitment on those grounds is astonishingly short-sighted. Singling people out for their labour power involves i) instrumentalising, ii) fungibility, iii) ownership, iv) denial of subjectivity and sometimes v) a focus solely on the body; so, again, the attempt to distinguish between the one thing being terrible and the other thing (identified as problematic by the left for over a hundred years) being OK, does not seem to fare well.", "timestamp": "1445373493"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1445293147"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753759373052&reply_comment_id=753777731262", "anchor": "fb-753759373052_753777731262", "service": "fb", "text": "→ HEY ELLIOT, WHY DON'T YOU SHAKE THAT BRAIN. FLAUNT WHAT YOUR MOMMA GAVE YOU.", "timestamp": "1445304050"}, {"author": "Amanda", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753772012722", "anchor": "fb-753772012722", "service": "fb", "text": "I don't mind it when people are just saying something nice to me on the street, even if it's flirty or superficial. This actually makes up the majority of street interactions I've had in New York. I know not all women like it and some would consider it catcalling, but I'm basically fine with it (if it's done well, it can even be really nice!). I'm just not okay with people yelling at me, being rude or demeaning, touching me, following me home, or getting angry at me. And those things do happen too. It's kind of a shame that it all seems to get classed under catcalling, because the latter behaviors are nothing like getting a compliment.", "timestamp": "1445300619"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1445368881"}, {"author": "Sam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753869447462&reply_comment_id=753870061232", "anchor": "fb-753869447462_753870061232", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I agree and I think that is a problematic aspect of feminism. There are definitely malicious men out there but if malice was the only reason men ever hurt women then I think the problem would be a lot smaller. Men need to be taught not to hurt women and shaming is not the way to do it!", "timestamp": "1445369394"}, {"author": "Sam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753869447462&reply_comment_id=753874921492", "anchor": "fb-753869447462_753874921492", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I just edited the above comment from \"I don't think the problem would be a lot smaller\" to \"I think the problem would be a lot small\". It was a typo the first time and I'm pointing it out because it may completely change the meaning!", "timestamp": "1445372778"}, {"author": "Sam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/753738090702?comment_id=753871258832", "anchor": "fb-753871258832", "service": "fb", "text": "I definitely have had a recruiter assume that offering me enough money would make me take a job in another state for a company whose morals I despise. It does feel frustrating that they see me more as a resource to be exploited then as a person with agency. The experience is (for all the reasons people have mentioned in this thread and more) nothing like recieving unsolicited compliments or on my appearance or invitations to do sexual things from strangers on the street.
I appreciate your point Jeff and I think it's especially important to look for similarities between people's experiences when those people are so different because it can help us relate to one another which hopefully makes us less likely to dehumanize one another. The fact that it's hard to find those similarities merely underscores the importance of trying. Understanding the perspectives of people with radically different experiences from your own is really hard (as someone with some relatively uncommon life experiences I'm reminded of this constantly). I'm also constantly struck by the potential I have to relate to other people's experiences. I know there are people who ought to hear this analogy because it would make them better people. Unfortunately I have no idea how to present it to them in a way they would take interest in.", "timestamp": "1445370034"}]}