{"items": [{"author": "Wayne", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111660172337680", "anchor": "fb-111660172337680", "service": "fb", "text": "", "timestamp": "1365732763"}, {"author": "Danni", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111661852337512", "anchor": "fb-111661852337512", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm confused...is the premise of this that vegetarianism or veganism is more expensive than a meat-eating diet? Or is the basis for the compensation just that meat-eating makes people happy? I don't get it.", "timestamp": "1365734993"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111664655670565", "anchor": "fb-111664655670565", "service": "fb", "text": "Why would I *want* to promote a diet that's more harmful to the planet than one that involves eating meat--all kinds of meat, not just feedlot cattle?", "timestamp": "1365738714"}, {"author": "Doug", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111665119003852", "anchor": "fb-111665119003852", "service": "fb", "text": "Hmm. I can go, right now, outside and see the sheep, goats, and pigs I'll be eating next year, and my freezer is full of the pigs and deer that lived in those same fields last year. Also, I'm trying to catch a groundhog for a friend.", "timestamp": "1365739443"}, {"author": "Meredith", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111665199003844", "anchor": "fb-111665199003844", "service": "fb", "text": "It never ceases to amaze me how often vegetarians and vegans assume that meat eaters are blissfully unaware of the conditions in feedlots and factory farms.", "timestamp": "1365739576"}, {"author": "Wayne", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111665735670457", "anchor": "fb-111665735670457", "service": "fb", "text": "", "timestamp": "1365740421"}, {"author": "J'eau", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111665869003777", "anchor": "fb-111665869003777", "service": "fb", "text": "i need to buy more empty freezers to put meat in", "timestamp": "1365740589"}, {"author": "Sara", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111665945670436", "anchor": "fb-111665945670436", "service": "fb", "text": "Thank you, Wayne.", "timestamp": "1365740680"}, {"author": "Wayne", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111665992337098", "anchor": "fb-111665992337098", "service": "fb", "text": "", "timestamp": "1365740772"}, {"author": "Bridget", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111666135670417", "anchor": "fb-111666135670417", "service": "fb", "text": "Still not seeing how Doug is parroting.", "timestamp": "1365740980"}, {"author": "J'eau", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111666205670410", "anchor": "fb-111666205670410", "service": "fb", "text": "@wayne: animals die. of all kinds of things. i can simply wait, and then eat them when they are dead of \"natural causes\". this is no different than some extreme veegans who don't even eat \"live plants\"/etc.", "timestamp": "1365741069"}, {"author": "J'eau", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111666382337059", "anchor": "fb-111666382337059", "service": "fb", "text": "i should dig up that aricle (kiran probably knows the one), that outlines in detail just how wasteful typical farming practices are for monoculture crops. GMOs and Monsato just complete the picture.
living beings must eat to live. we need clean water, and we need food. it's not really a choice. we can ethically raise our food. there's TOO MANY PEOPLE though, to make that easy, or cost effective anymore. farms have dwindled. most people don't raise their own supplemental crops anymore.
so. what shall we do? lay down and die?
the top of the food chain, both in general ethics, and health (oddly enough), is the scavenger. from eagles to buzzards, from coyotes to lions, most of those guys just wait for someone to die for them. then they recycle it. it's the ultimate green method.", "timestamp": "1365741339"}, {"author": "Wayne", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111666449003719", "anchor": "fb-111666449003719", "service": "fb", "text": "", "timestamp": "1365741454"}, {"author": "J'eau", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111666475670383", "anchor": "fb-111666475670383", "service": "fb", "text": "i really don't know where you are getting this enslavement and/or murder thing.", "timestamp": "1365741503"}, {"author": "Wayne", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111666702337027", "anchor": "fb-111666702337027", "service": "fb", "text": "", "timestamp": "1365741892"}, {"author": "J'eau", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111667172336980", "anchor": "fb-111667172336980", "service": "fb", "text": "oh, i see, the political peta-type angle. gotcha.
you still haven't offered a solution that is PC and good for the planet at the same time.
living things have to eat. so, what are you suggesting?
as it turns out, i have no particular problem with ethical means of harvesting food. by my own hand, as it turns out.", "timestamp": "1365742545"}, {"author": "J'eau", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111667255670305", "anchor": "fb-111667255670305", "service": "fb", "text": "i have actually", "timestamp": "1365742702"}, {"author": "Wayne", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111667395670291", "anchor": "fb-111667395670291", "service": "fb", "text": "", "timestamp": "1365742854"}, {"author": "J'eau", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111667452336952", "anchor": "fb-111667452336952", "service": "fb", "text": "Mother Nature seems to think it's okay.", "timestamp": "1365742938"}, {"author": "J'eau", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111667729003591", "anchor": "fb-111667729003591", "service": "fb", "text": "cheater? technology? bare hands? really, not following.", "timestamp": "1365743467"}, {"author": "J'eau", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111667969003567", "anchor": "fb-111667969003567", "service": "fb", "text": "so, here's my thing: i was raised on a certain kind of diet. which actually, i did not like, so i experimented for years. one of those things i tried was vegetarianism, ovo-lacto - which some people consider bad news. turns out i can barely tolerate such a diet for long without getting sick. i could not do vegan. i would suffer and die (aside from the fact that daily grains, bread, etc are seemingly poisonous to me). can't eat fish, because of toxins and overfishing. can't eat a whole lot of other things actually.
so, that leaves a rather limited number of choices to live a long healthy life. so, i'm doing that. if that also means i have to raise and cherish what i need to eat, i will. i have. i would do it again. if that means i have to wait for road kill or old age, i'm okay with that too.
as i said before, \"got to eat\". as nobody has actually offered choices, i've told you mine.
you have yours. don't judge. i don't. peace out.", "timestamp": "1365743885"}, {"author": "Jackeda", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111674925669538", "anchor": "fb-111674925669538", "service": "fb", "text": "\"Why would I *want* to promote a diet that's more harmful to the planet than one that involves eating meat-\" what utter, utter nonsense. Factory farms are one of the most hideous polluters there is; people who live within a few miles of them suffer sickness from the pollution. 2/3rds of all crops go to feeding livestock, 45 billion of them on the planet, when they could go directly to feeding people. Please explain to me how 45 BILLION livestock animals have no impact on the environment?
As for the \"nature\" argument, if it was natural for you to eat meat, you'd tear it down with your bare hands and/or drop half mangled animals in front of your children for them to practice their hunting skills, like every other predator on Earth. but you don't, do you? You pick slabs of meat off a supermarket shelf like fruit then eat it with a knife and fork.
If killing animals were natural, the meat industry wouldn't be one of the most hideous slave industries on Earth. You wouldn't need to FORCE people to kill animals if it came naturally to them, now would you? But the meat packing industry is made up almost entirely of poor, immigrant PoC who have no other choices,and who suffer absolutely horrendous abuse. I hope you enjoy your cheeseburger, let's hope it wasn't slaughtered for you by a 15 year old abused migrant. http://www.hrw.org/node/11869/section/2", "timestamp": "1365753580"}, {"author": "Sasha", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111679999002364", "anchor": "fb-111679999002364", "service": "fb", "text": "I don't see the need to present this as either/or. Vegetarianism in most developed countries doesn't cost you anything (and might come with health benefits) except willpower, and over the long term, 'exercising' willpower might increase your reserves of it.", "timestamp": "1365760959"}, {"author": "Rob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111680029002361", "anchor": "fb-111680029002361", "service": "fb", "text": "This makes sense for those who will never be vocal on the issue, but you are a much more effective advocate for compassion in your own life if you abstain from eating meat (esp factory farmed meat) yourself.", "timestamp": "1365761012"}, {"author": "Will", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111680875668943", "anchor": "fb-111680875668943", "service": "fb", "text": "Animals are made of food.", "timestamp": "1365762156"}, {"author": "Chelsea", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111682572335440", "anchor": "fb-111682572335440", "service": "fb", "text": ":(", "timestamp": "1365764381"}, {"author": "Benjamin", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111682965668734", "anchor": "fb-111682965668734", "service": "fb", "text": "http://www.mymodernmet.com/.../perfectly-timed-photos...", "timestamp": "1365764961"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111682969002067", "anchor": "fb-111682969002067", "service": "fb", "text": "@Eduardo: \"Where the world produce 6x the grains and food to feed every human being, and those grains are used to feed cattle for slaughter so the rich and fat can stick to their bullshit traditions.\"
Many of our foods are concentrations, where a large amount of a plant based raw material is wasted as part of producing a product we eat. An apples-to-apples comparison is seitan, where you use about 7 pounds of flour to make 1 pound of seitan by washing away all the non-protein parts of the flour. More: http://www.jefftk.com/news/2013-03-19", "timestamp": "1365764966"}, {"author": "Sasha", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111683345668696", "anchor": "fb-111683345668696", "service": "fb", "text": "Will Flanders & Swann would agree: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGW-qnlrMjs", "timestamp": "1365765423"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111685265668504", "anchor": "fb-111685265668504", "service": "fb", "text": "@Sasha: \"Vegetarianism in most developed countries doesn't cost you anything\"
If I were to switch to vegetarianism I would need to stop eating many foods I enjoy. How is that not a cost?", "timestamp": "1365767732"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111685505668480", "anchor": "fb-111685505668480", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jack: \"if it was natural for you to eat meat, you'd tear it down with your bare hands and/or drop half mangled animals in front of your children for them to practice their hunting skills, like every other predator on Earth. but you don't, do you? You pick slabs of meat off a supermarket shelf like fruit then eat it with a knife and fork.\"
Someone might also say it's natural to eat plants. Would you respond to that by saying it's only natural if you're eating leaves right off of the plant or eating roots right out of the ground?", "timestamp": "1365768073"}, {"author": "Jackeda", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111685569001807", "anchor": "fb-111685569001807", "service": "fb", "text": ".... How else do you eat plants....?", "timestamp": "1365768143"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111685669001797", "anchor": "fb-111685669001797", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jack: \"How else do you eat plants\"
We buy them in the supermarket days to weeks after they've been picked, chop them up, cook them in various combinations, and eat them with a knife and fork. In some cases, like grain, there are even more steps between us and production.", "timestamp": "1365768276"}, {"author": "Jackeda", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111685965668434", "anchor": "fb-111685965668434", "service": "fb", "text": "Ok? I think you missed the point.", "timestamp": "1365768585"}, {"author": "Chelsea", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111686542335043", "anchor": "fb-111686542335043", "service": "fb", "text": "Positive decisions are always easier than denying oneself. Don't choose NOT to eat something you want to eat. Choose to eat what you want in the most ethical way possible. Choose to eat meat that is better for you and better for the animal.", "timestamp": "1365769226"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111687485668282", "anchor": "fb-111687485668282", "service": "fb", "text": "@John: \"In terms of consequentialism, the issue of interests and harm is not addressed\"
Imagine someone says \"Jeff, I know you're a consequentialist, don't you see that the world will be better if you stop eating animals?\" Consider two possible worlds: (a) one in which I stop eating animals for a year or (b) one in which I donate $11 to the Humane League which runs anti-veg ads and convinces someone else to stop eating animals. In both worlds you have less animal eating. Morally, in terms of their effect on animals, they're very similar worlds. But I'd rather have world (b) than (a) because I get more than $11/year enjoyment out of eating animals.", "timestamp": "1365770255"}, {"author": "Jackeda", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111687672334930", "anchor": "fb-111687672334930", "service": "fb", "text": "Enjoy enabling human slavery, I guess, if meat is that precious to you.", "timestamp": "1365770438"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111687745668256", "anchor": "fb-111687745668256", "service": "fb", "text": "@John: \"given that a vegetarian diet is more cost effective in terms of ... consumer price point\"
Source? If you're already eating cheap cuts of meat I'm not sure switching to a vegetarian diet you enjoy about as much will save you money.", "timestamp": "1365770507"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111687915668239", "anchor": "fb-111687915668239", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jack: \"Enjoy enabling human slavery, I guess, if meat is that precious to you.\"
The idea is that you can cause someone to be vegetarian for a year in two ways: (1) by doing it yourself or (2) by donating $11 to veg advocacy. Both have similar effects on the amount of animals consumed and (though I don't know how you're getting this) human slavery.", "timestamp": "1365770674"}, {"author": "Sasha", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111689395668091", "anchor": "fb-111689395668091", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, 'If I were to switch to vegetarianism I would need to stop eating many foods I enjoy. How is that not a cost?'
We're quibbling over definitions here. Clearly it would tax your constitution, but it doesn't involve any demonstrable *material* cost - being vegetarian doesn't impair your ability to do other things on your priority list since it doesn't demand either time or money from you.", "timestamp": "1365772045"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111690092334688", "anchor": "fb-111690092334688", "service": "fb", "text": "@John: \"I'm not sure I follow option b\u2014the Humane league runs \"anti-veg\" ads that convince others to stop eating meat?\"
That option (b) exists is critical to the argument, so I want to try it again. The idea is that if you think the world would be better if there were less eating animals you have (at least) two ways to go about it. Option (a) is simple: stop eating animals. Option (b) is more complex. There is an organization, the Humane League, which puts ads on facebook. People click on those ads which takes them to a site where they can watch a video that is intended to make them realize that eating animals is wrong and give it up. If you look at how much the ads cost and get an estimate for how many people become vegetarian by the fraction that order \"vegetarian starter kits\" you get that for about every $50 they spend they convince someone to be a vegetarian. People often give up vegetarianism after a few years, though, around 4 and a half, so you're really paying $50 for four and a half vegetarian-years or $11 for a vegetarian year. Details: http://www.utilitarian-essays.com/veg-ads.html
Do you see how (a) and (b) are nearly morally equivalent?
\"The equal consideration of interests\"
That's not part of of consequentialism, and the argument here is pretty much indifferent to that.", "timestamp": "1365772604"}, {"author": "Eitan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111693815667649", "anchor": "fb-111693815667649", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff,
With the amount of influence you have, especially over other highly-influential people, being a vegetarian publicly would probably be worth several hundreds or thousands of times more than $11/y.", "timestamp": "1365776229"}, {"author": "Wayne", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111707672332930", "anchor": "fb-111707672332930", "service": "fb", "text": "", "timestamp": "1365788647"}, {"author": "J'eau", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111709165666114", "anchor": "fb-111709165666114", "service": "fb", "text": "in terms of cost, eating meat potentially costs less. at least it would for me. as a kid, we had a large population of domestic ducks, geese, chickens, and such. they lived outside, fed themselves for the most part (we supplemented in Winter and other times for their health and variety), bred like crazy. cost? basically zero. time spent on them? couple hours a month, at most. completely self-sufficient if didn't care about them. mind, we also didn't eat them, because we had other things.
if you have the space and property, and environment to do this, having natural critters running around works fine. i also have deer and turkey, and many others bouncing all over the place. it's much more cost and time effective were i to choose eating that way. were i to have to grow nutritionally complete crops, i wouldn't actually be able to work a full time job and pay my expenses (like having land to farm) - i'm sure some people could do it, but it would seriously impact my life.", "timestamp": "1365790203"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111713495665681", "anchor": "fb-111713495665681", "service": "fb", "text": "@Wayne: \"you are basing your factual premise on the research of one individual, whose character and integrity have been severely challenged (including in current litigation), who has no training or experience whatsoever in empirical analysis, and whose research has not been subjected to any scrutiny or quality control.\"
Um. What are you talking about? For starters, which individual? Do you mean Brian Tomasik, Nick Cooney, or someone else? What severe challenges to their character or integrity are you talking about?
As for scrutiny, several people have looked at the details, among them: Peter Hurford at http://www.greatplay.net/.../new-evidence-for-cost... , me at http://www.jefftk.com/news/2012-03-07 , http://www.jefftk.com/news/2012-03-18 , and http://www.jefftk.com/news/2011-11-10 , Brian Tomasik at http://www.utilitarian-essays.com/dollar-worth.pdf and http://www.utilitarian-essays.com/veg-ads.html , and Jess Whittlestone at http://80000hours.org/.../135-the-power-of-effective...
The rough idea is that you give ads or leaflets to a very large number of people very cheaply, and a very small fraction respond by choosing to go vegetarian or vegan. For the ads, each person to your site costs $0.20ish, so $50 for a vegetarian who lasts 4.5 years only requires getting 1 in 250 people to convert. All your links are about situations where 1 in 250 wouldn't be an acceptable fraction; I don't see anything there that is counter to this.", "timestamp": "1365794340"}, {"author": "Wayne", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111720605664970", "anchor": "fb-111720605664970", "service": "fb", "text": "", "timestamp": "1365801789"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111727585664272", "anchor": "fb-111727585664272", "service": "fb", "text": "Joe hit the nail on the head. The \"utter, utter nonsense\" is not the belief that a mixed diet heavy on animal protein is harmful for the planet, it's the belief that large-scale vegetarianism can exist without industrial agriculture (which actually kills huge numbers of small animals, but that's irrelevant.) I can grow enough vegetables on a modest plot of land (less than a typical yard in most parts of the country) and harvest deer, rabbits, and groundhogs that live in undeveloped areas and eat things I can't eat directly. Then I can feed my leftovers to other animals such as pigs and chickens. That's how people still live in many parts of the world.
I can't grow enough corn, wheat, or rice in my backyard to keep me alive, even if I were willing to suffer the health consequences.
And, apparently unlike some people, I can actually tell the difference between children and animals. Sorry 'bout that.", "timestamp": "1365809955"}, {"author": "J'eau", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111728015664229", "anchor": "fb-111728015664229", "service": "fb", "text": "kiran: check out the first \"inside\" pages of the foreword and introduction. you'll love this book: http://www.amazon.com/Eating-Aliens.../dp/161212027X/", "timestamp": "1365810497"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111731358997228", "anchor": "fb-111731358997228", "service": "fb", "text": "@Kiran: \"I can't grow enough corn, wheat, or rice in my backyard to keep me alive, even if I were willing to suffer the health consequences.\"
So I'm curious: how much land area is enough to keep you alive on corn? The average yield of corn is 160 bushels per acre per year, there are 88,500 calories per bushel, so an acre gives you 40,000 calories per day. 1/20th of an acre would be 2000 calories per day. Corn is pretty efficient.", "timestamp": "1365814471"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111732375663793", "anchor": "fb-111732375663793", "service": "fb", "text": "It's pretty efficient when grown by industrial agriculture. I've never known a home gardener (including my dad) who could grow corn.", "timestamp": "1365815635"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111732502330447", "anchor": "fb-111732502330447", "service": "fb", "text": "Rice has fewer health drawbacks than corn. I'm curious as to how the numbers work out for rice. And can it be grown in New England? I can certainly grow vegetables here, as well as the aforementioned wild game.", "timestamp": "1365815765"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111732995663731", "anchor": "fb-111732995663731", "service": "fb", "text": "@Wayne: \"I am talking, in particular, about the Farm Sanctuary study that found a 1 in 50 effect.\"
It sounds like you're talking about:
http://ccc.farmsanctuary.org/the-powerful-impact-of.../ http://ccc.farmsanctuary.org/the-powerful-impact-of.../
Looking at their questionnaire [1] I see several problems, enough that I completely don't trust that data. The ones I've looked before at are a 2011 facebook ad survey by the same Nick Cooney as the Farm Sanctuary one [2] and a 2005 calculation/estimate by Brian Tomasik based on Vegan Outreach numbers. [3]
Looking back at my reaction to the Vegan Outreach numbers [4], I think you're right that I was much too credulous of their conversion rate information. The evidence is poor and they're claiming about 1% for leafleting. In reading the facebook ads, though, they had better evidence [5], and I think of the various sources that's the only one that has a good chance of being close to right.
Your rejection of their claim is based on the idea that if ads and leafleting were this effective in getting people to change their behavior then corporations and governments would do way more of it. One possibility here is that there's massively diminishing returns to this kind of advertising and veg-promotion is on a very different part of the curve than anti-smoking or the various kinds of corporate advertising. That an impressionable high schooler on facebook clicking through to a video of animal cruelty in factory farms would have a 0.5% chance of becoming a vegetarian sounds plausible to me because there's so little such advertising out there.
\"I did almost exactly the same study at the University of Chicago over three years of leafleting and tabling with Meat Your Meat, from 2004-2006.\"
Have you written about this more elsewhere? Or if you haven't, could you? I would really like to read more.
[1] http://ccc.farmsanctuary.org/.../01/LeafletingSurvey.pdf
[2] http://www.utilitarian-essays.com/FacebookAdsSurveyResult...
[3] http://www.utilitarian-essays.com/dollar-worth.pdf
[4] http://www.jefftk.com/news/2011-11-10
[5] http://www.jefftk.com/news/2012-03-07", "timestamp": "1365816378"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111733755663655", "anchor": "fb-111733755663655", "service": "fb", "text": "@Kiran: \"I've never known a home gardener (including my dad) who could grow corn.\"
In Ecuador this summer I saw a lot of people growing corn on small plots of land, maybe 50x20. These were in what would be suburbs and exurbs if Quito were a US city.", "timestamp": "1365817062"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111734045663626", "anchor": "fb-111734045663626", "service": "fb", "text": "Were they getting 160 bushels per acre?", "timestamp": "1365817377"}, {"author": "Wayne", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111780938992270", "anchor": "fb-111780938992270", "service": "fb", "text": "", "timestamp": "1365871845"}, {"author": "Jim", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111781568992207", "anchor": "fb-111781568992207", "service": "fb", "text": "Wayne, I am not going to read this thread from start to finish. What am I looking at?
As far as corn in Ecuador goes, the corn they grow is completely different than the corn we grow here in the states. \"Choclo\" is pretty much the same corn that the incas grew over 1000 years ago and it is suited for growing on that soil and in the climate. It is as much of a staple for them as the potato, which originated in the Andes (*ALL* potatoes are from that region of the world). Our corn is genetically modified and is nothing like the native corn that the natives of North America grew even as recent as 100 years ago.", "timestamp": "1365872403"}, {"author": "Wayne", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111781632325534", "anchor": "fb-111781632325534", "service": "fb", "text": "", "timestamp": "1365872450"}, {"author": "Jim", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111782002325497", "anchor": "fb-111782002325497", "service": "fb", "text": "I don't buy the VO stats on leaflet conversions. I don't believe that anybody goes from typical carnivore to vegan based on one leaflet they got while walking down the sidewalk. If it does happen, maybe 1 in 10,000. What VO refuses to accept is that it takes far more influences and outreach to bring someone to the point of going vegan and even more support and outreach to keep a new vegan on track to stay vegan. VO seems to be of the mind that all other forms of outreach should be scrapped to focus on handing out leaflets and they prop up these stats as their reasoning. It's a very flawed argument, if you ask me.", "timestamp": "1365872796"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111787852324912", "anchor": "fb-111787852324912", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jim: \"I don't believe that anybody goes from typical carnivore to vegan based on one leaflet they got while walking down the sidewalk.\"
I don't think the case for leaflets is all that strong either. The stronger case is the one for online vegetarian ads; see my response to Wayne: https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089...
Minor point: the effectiveness claims for leaflets are based on the number of people who become vegetarian, not who become vegan.
The discussion about corn and subsistence agriculture is a tangent.", "timestamp": "1365879115"}, {"author": "Jim", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111789598991404", "anchor": "fb-111789598991404", "service": "fb", "text": "My wife went vegetarian after watching a 3 minute video at Worldfest in LA. Boom! Videos are successful, right? It couldn't have been due to the influence of her vegan BF she had been dating for two years prior to seeing that video, attending a 3 day vegan conference that ended the day before, listening to John Robbins, John McDougall, Caldwell Esselstyn and others talk about the benefits of veganism, and the influence of our vegan friends we were staying with and their 3 vegan children. it must have been the video. ;)
NOBODY gets a leaflet, sees a video, or hears 1 speech and goes vegetarian from being a typical meat eater. I just don't believe it. There are many other influences and influencers at play.", "timestamp": "1365880771"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=111959052307792", "anchor": "fb-111959052307792", "service": "fb", "text": "@Wayne: I've looked over the facebook ads survey design again, and roughed out what I think would be a study you could trust: http://www.jefftk.com/news/2013-04-15", "timestamp": "1366078826"}, {"author": "Wayne", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=112387915598239", "anchor": "fb-112387915598239", "service": "fb", "text": "", "timestamp": "1366658232"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=112393202264377", "anchor": "fb-112393202264377", "service": "fb", "text": "@Wayne: What would you think of a study like:
1. Place the same sort of facebook ads
2. Once someone clicks, randomly send them to site A or site B.
3. On both sites, drop a retargeting cookie.
4. Site A is anti-meat, Site B is a 404 and just appears to be broken.
5. Weeks later [3], use the retargeting cookie to show ads asking people to take a survey.
6. Among other things, the survey asks whether you're vegetarian.
7. Compare the rates of vegetarianism between the two groups.
Having the survey ask many questions including one about vegetarianism should let us fix your #2. I agree that the Humane League studies are framed in an anti-meat-suggesting way. The specific question would also matter. I would think something like \"how often do you eat meat? (a) every day (b) several times a week (c) rarely (d) never\" or \"do you eat meat? yes/no\" should be pretty neutral.
By randomly assigning people to see the anti-meat video or not we control properly and deal with your #3.
If performed by an independent organization this fixes #4.
This leaves us with your #1, not trusting self reported data. But there are definitely cases where self reported data is fine: polls predict elections pretty well. I would expect that if we could get a survey that didn't push people towards or away from admitting to meat consumption by its wording it would be pretty close to right.", "timestamp": "1366663793"}, {"author": "Gianna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/111659415671089?comment_id=112394708930893", "anchor": "fb-112394708930893", "service": "fb", "text": "\"All animals have lives, friends, family and liberty that they hold dear and to which they are entitled.\" I don't quite buy this - I've yet to see convincing evidence that cows, chickens, etc. have the type of higher cognition and human feeling that many like to claim. On the other hand, I'd say they do feel pain, experience stress, and should be spared from torture, disease, and awful conditions. I'd also agree that factory farming is terrible for the environment. Eating a diet relatively low in animal products, purchasing free range and grass fed products directly from farmers for 80-90% of what I do consume, and not sweating the rest for a variety of reasons seems like a reasonable approach. I have some medical reasons for my decisions, but I think I'd make the same choices even if I didn't. I've visited the hens that lay the eggs I eat, and the cows that are now sitting in my freezer, and I'm satisfied with their quality of life. Paying $11 to convince someone else to be vegetarian is interesting take; it assumes you believe that one should be vegetarian but that you aren't willing to do it yourself. Since the issue is so tied up in personal beliefs, that seems an odd way to clear your conscience. It might be more useful for someone like me who agrees that on the balance, it would be good if the world were more vegetarian, but doesn't find particular moral fault with not being so.", "timestamp": "1366665766"}]}