{"items": [{"author": "Alex", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/100936518160252317727", "anchor": "gp-1323789257318", "service": "gp", "text": "This happens all the time on the NY subways. People always hang out by the door even if there's more space in the middle of the cars; then, they get out their magazine and ignore everyone who's still waiting to get on. It's way more inconsiderate to stand by the door and block people getting on than it is to push your way back. It sucks a little bit to be stuck in a packed group when it's cramped, so that alone doesn't justify pushing through; but it sucks a whole hell of a lot more to have to wait for the next bus or train.\n
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\nPushing your way to the back is definitely the right thing to do, even if it's not particularly crowded. It's possible that more folks will want to get on at the next stop, and then things will be way worse if you didn't move back earlier.", "timestamp": 1323789257}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1323789549091", "service": "gp", "text": "The \"politeness\" involved is maybe an extreme example of valuing people who are close (standing next to you) than far (not on the bus yet), which is a common theme from much of what you write about charitable giving.", "timestamp": 1323789549}, {"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/309312292423008?comment_id=309331582421079", "anchor": "fb-309331582421079", "service": "fb", "text": "This is quite common on the Silver Line. I think another factor is that people near the door don't want to move farther in because they want to be near the front getting out, especially if their stop is near.", "timestamp": "1323789809"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/117732328885787456164", "anchor": "gp-1323789971883", "service": "gp", "text": "I still remember an occasion from when I used to take the bus to high school (this was in NYC), when there were three or four teenage girls who simply refused (through obliviousness rather than orneriness, I'm guessing) to move back into the free space in the back of the bus; the driver came around to the rear door and kicked them off the bus. I don't believe there was actual applause, but I know I \nfelt\n like applauding.", "timestamp": 1323789971}, {"author": "Alex", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/100936518160252317727", "anchor": "gp-1323790276285", "service": "gp", "text": "@Robert\n I would have cried with happiness. If only they did that on the subways. Maybe I should move to Japan...", "timestamp": 1323790276}, {"author": "Bronwyn", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112209325452034727224", "anchor": "gp-1323790732591", "service": "gp", "text": "I think a lot of the not moving back may be selfishness rather than politeness. In Pittsburgh, if you move back it can become next to impossible to get off the bus (especially when bus drivers won't open the back door because you're supposed to pay getting off the bus). When I know I'll be getting off the bus after the crowd thins out, I move back. When I know I'll have to get off earlier, I first try to let people get by me if possible. It causes less disruption than spending several minutes making my way back to the front when I want to get off. I think that the Pittsburgh buses during rush hour are so crowded that people don't really worry about politeness and pushing past people. No matter what you do you have no personal space anyway.\n
\nI should say this is what I used to do -- this is one of the reasons why I now bike everywhere instead of busing.", "timestamp": 1323790732}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/114987071963782993407", "anchor": "gp-1323791792522", "service": "gp", "text": "Bronwyn: I regularly push to the back of the bus, with a unicycle in tow. I need to push past people to get off, but feel much more comfortable during the trip. The trick is to be very vocal \"I'm getting off! This stop! Let me through please!\" and people create an amazing amount of room to let you through. this also works on the train, you need to break people out of their bubble in order for them to consider others.", "timestamp": 1323791792}, {"author": "Alex", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/309312292423008?comment_id=309395449081359", "anchor": "fb-309395449081359", "service": "fb", "text": "I imagine being slightly more aggressive than you normally would be would not attract much notice (this is Boston we're talking about), and when someone is left on the curb, they certainly notice that. If you're going to create more efficiency on the bus by getting on earlier, I think you're perfectly justified in smoothly asserting your place at the front of the crowd. Just don't be too blatant, because then it will piss people off and negate the benefit.", "timestamp": "1323792642"}, {"author": "Bronwyn", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112209325452034727224", "anchor": "gp-1323792658883", "service": "gp", "text": "Danner: I think you haven't ridden on Pittsburgh buses during rush hour. It not an issue of people not trying - they try. They know the bus won't move again until people can get off the bus. They literally \ncan't\n move. People trying to get onto the bus will fill up every available space because they've been waiting for 45 minutes and have seen 5 buses go by without stopping because they are too full. The bus driver doesn't stop people getting on until there is no space left (never mind about the 'don't stand in front of this line' line). My point is that under these circumstances, the most efficient system is not 'first one on goes to the back', it's 'person traveling the farthest goes to the back'. \n
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\nIn other situations I agree with you - and I will go to an area of the bus that is less crowded if one exists.", "timestamp": 1323792658}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1323793142249", "service": "gp", "text": "@Danner\n \"people create an amazing amount of room to let you through\"\n
\n
\nIt's much more in their interest: they know the bus isn't going anywhere until you get off.", "timestamp": 1323793142}, {"author": "Bronwyn", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112209325452034727224", "anchor": "gp-1323793270574", "service": "gp", "text": "In any case, I still think that not moving back has more to do with selfishness than politeness. I think people will go to where they think they will be most comfortable (integrating over getting on, riding, and getting off).", "timestamp": 1323793270}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1323793279939", "service": "gp", "text": "@Bronwyn\n \"especially when bus drivers won't open the back door because you're supposed to pay getting off the bus\"\n
\n
\nThis isn't common in Boston. I believe only the 71, 72, and 73 do this.", "timestamp": 1323793279}, {"author": "Bronwyn", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112209325452034727224", "anchor": "gp-1323793459014", "service": "gp", "text": "Yeah, in Pittsburgh all buses going outbound from downtown during the day are pay when you get off. There are a number of bus drivers who just open both doors anyway and don't worry about people paying. There are others who don't.", "timestamp": 1323793459}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/309312292423008?comment_id=309405605747010", "anchor": "fb-309405605747010", "service": "fb", "text": "The obvious solution is to build jungle gyms on the ceilings of all the buses so people can climb around above the crowds. I see no way this could go wrong.", "timestamp": "1323793500"}, {"author": "Alex", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/100936518160252317727", "anchor": "gp-1323793703119", "service": "gp", "text": "All buses should do pre-pay or have self-pay kiosks throughout the bus. They do the latter in London and several other European cities, and recently added the former on several bus routes in NYC. It improves average bus speed by some huge amount, on the order of 40% or more. And of course you can have more doors that way, any of which you can use, so it's easier to get on and off.", "timestamp": 1323793703}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/117732328885787456164", "anchor": "gp-1323793880502", "service": "gp", "text": "I didn't realize there were any buses in Boston still doing pay-as-you-leave. It made some sort of sense when the 71 & 73 were continuations of the 77, but that's not true any more, is it?\n
\n
\nAnother reason why people might choose not to move back is that they want to stay near their traveling companion who has managed to snag a seat.", "timestamp": 1323793880}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/114987071963782993407", "anchor": "gp-1323794090881", "service": "gp", "text": "Jeff: only if you're loud enough that the driver hears you. I've been stuck for a few stops trying to be polite, now I make a racket. If you don't want to be considerate, I don't care if you think I'm rude.", "timestamp": 1323794090}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1323794247913", "service": "gp", "text": "@Robert\n The three boston pay-as-you-leave ones are the trackless trolleys doing left side boardings in the harvard square bus tunnel's lower level. The only payment option is at the right-side driver's door, which is inconvenient.", "timestamp": 1323794247}, {"author": "BDan", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103775592027106438640", "anchor": "gp-1323794476550", "service": "gp", "text": "Alex: the thing about self-pay is that you need to combine it with proof-of-payment and occasional inspections with appropriately high fines for nonpayment, or you just get massive fare evasion (which I understand happens on MUNI in San Francisco). Done properly it's a great system, though.", "timestamp": 1323794476}, {"author": "Alex", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/100936518160252317727", "anchor": "gp-1323795362358", "service": "gp", "text": "@BDan\n They do this in NYC. Fare inspectors are a common enough sight (I hear -- I take the subway so I don't actually know), and the fine is something like $135 at least. If you get nailed at least once a month the calculus leans toward paying.", "timestamp": 1323795362}, {"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/309312292423008?comment_id=309428892411348", "anchor": "fb-309428892411348", "service": "fb", "text": "@David: Yes, the top half of the bus interior is severely underutilized.", "timestamp": "1323795928"}, {"author": "Sarah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/309312292423008?comment_id=309440695743501", "anchor": "fb-309440695743501", "service": "fb", "text": "This is a common problem on the Green Line as well. I attribute much of it to the poorly designed interior (stairs, constriction points, etc) rather than to people's politeness, but I think both are probably at play. I think that Boston, in particular, might suffer from the infamous New England reservedness, such that people are unwilling to crowd as close to each other as people in other cities. I have seen my fair share of packed buses/trains so I know people here are capable of moving in, but in general I would say that Bostonians expect to have a larger \"personal bubble\" than say in New York.", "timestamp": "1323797501"}, {"author": "John", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/100633726263571579985", "anchor": "gp-1323810923157", "service": "gp", "text": "Of course it used to be that many riders had to pay to get off an MBTA bus so there was incentive to stay in front; maybe some of these people have old habits - but I doubt it.", "timestamp": 1323810923}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1323811717729", "service": "gp", "text": "@John\n \"maybe some of these people have old habits\"\n
\n
\nVery old habits; I don't remember ever having to pay to get off, so that puts it before 1997 or so.", "timestamp": 1323811717}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/117732328885787456164", "anchor": "gp-1323814373635", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff Kaufman: \"that puts it before 1997 or so.\" -- More like 1977 or so.", "timestamp": 1323814373}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/102487727783123805341", "anchor": "gp-1323829692050", "service": "gp", "text": "I get really motion-sick at the back of the bus. I wonder if that's a factor for some of these people?", "timestamp": 1323829692}]}