{"items": [{"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449203161827687", "anchor": "fb-449203161827687", "service": "fb", "text": "Two words: Money Musk.", "timestamp": "1365652574"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449203265161010", "anchor": "fb-449203265161010", "service": "fb", "text": "Both hypotheticals seem like more extreme deviations from protocol than calling an \"X's gypsy\" when normally only \"Y's gypsy\" is called. That's in the caller's vocabulary even if not usually called in a way that \"new partner\" (when mixers are unheard of) or, even more extreme, \"same partner all dances\" isn't really.", "timestamp": "1365652641"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449203685160968", "anchor": "fb-449203685160968", "service": "fb", "text": "(Not that it matters much. FWIW, here's a hypothetical I like a little better: calling a neighbor gypsy in that same racist society with no mixers and ordinarily only partner gypsies.)", "timestamp": "1365652800"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449218798492790", "anchor": "fb-449218798492790", "service": "fb", "text": "It's a thorny problem. As a caller, you don't necessarily want to be complicit in the problem, but you don't want to make people uncomfortable either, and there's only so much you can do as a visitor to impact an existing culture.
On an only semi-related note, we're not as far from that hypothetical racist society, where people only dance with people of their own race, as we'd like to think. Sure, we don't force segregation in contra dances. Most of us like to think we're open-minded. But one way or another, we have REMARKABLY few non-white people who attend contras on a regular basis. The cultural backdrop to contradancing is almost exclusively from the white community, and it doesn't seem like the modern community and culture is changing that very much. You may have already had this discussion here at some point?", "timestamp": "1365659331"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449271091820894", "anchor": "fb-449271091820894", "service": "fb", "text": "I haven't noticed this difference between urban dances and rural dances. Many male dancers around Boston seem pretty awkward about eye contact and I'm not sure how they'd do if they had to gypsy another man.
Also, I think you recognize the flirtatious nature of a gypsy or swing. So when you say:
\"Why would simply looking each other in the eye or placing a hand around someone's back be so stressful and disconcerting? Why are people so homophobic?\"
...I think you should elaborate on why you believe reluctance to flirt with someone of the same gender is the same thing as homophobia. Sure, they may be very connected, but I think this jump on your part is a little unfair.", "timestamp": "1365679733"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449340721813931", "anchor": "fb-449340721813931", "service": "fb", "text": "Jonah, it may be difficult to draw the line exactly, but it definitely leans into homophobia. Reluctance to flirt with someone of the same gender, sure. However, calling a gents gypsy doesn't force you to flirt. The call gives an opportunity to flirt, but people can certainly do the move without making it flirtatious. I'm sure opposite-gender couples in contra do this all the time with individuals they don't want to encourage, even if both are straight and theoretically interested in people of the gender they're paired with. I don't think it's homophobic to do the move without being as flirtatious as you would be with someone of the opposite gender. It may well be homophobic to be uncomfortable enough with the call in the first place that you consistently replace it with something else, or don't ask the caller back over such an issue.", "timestamp": "1365696848"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449356605145676", "anchor": "fb-449356605145676", "service": "fb", "text": "I agree with Jonah. To be homophobic is to be hostile towards gays. A man who prefers not to dance with other men is not homophobic; it's just a matter of personal taste, style, or self-expression.", "timestamp": "1365700145"}, {"author": "Marcus", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/115811589251174483775", "anchor": "gp-1365718429845", "service": "gp", "text": "Older contras and English country dances typically include significantly more same-sex interaction than modern contras.\u00a0 Are you saying we shouldn't call chestnuts either?\u00a0 It's a part of our dance tradition to dance with everyone in the set, not just your opposite and partner.", "timestamp": 1365718429}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1365718583370", "service": "gp", "text": "@Marcus\n\u00a0The same-sex interactions in ECD and older contra dances have different social implications than a swing or a gypsy.", "timestamp": 1365718583}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449436758470994", "anchor": "fb-449436758470994", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jonah, @Daniel: I don't think reluctance to flirt with someone of the same gender is homophobic. People are free to be attracted or not to whoever they happen to be attracted to, and flirting generally needs to have some component of attraction however casual it may be. But you can swing and gypsy in non-flirty ways, and you don't need to be attracted to the other person to enjoy dancing with them briefly in a group dance.", "timestamp": "1365718946"}, {"author": "Marcus", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/115811589251174483775", "anchor": "gp-1365719640344", "service": "gp", "text": "I've certainly danced English dances with same-sex gypsies, though those might have been modern additions. Swings didn't really exist yet.\u00a0 While I agree that the modern contra is somewhat more sensual, I think it's an arbitrary distinction.\u00a0\n
\n
\nThere are holds that can be used to avoid as much body contact that some of the older men seem to prefer. (eg. handshake, other hand on shoulder)\u00a0 That seems like a reasonable way out of the problem, though younger dancers may not know them.", "timestamp": 1365719640}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449439691804034", "anchor": "fb-449439691804034", "service": "fb", "text": "I think it has a lot to do with the underlying gender roles. Putting two people of the same gender into an arrangement originally conceived of as being for two people of different genders entails changing the gender role of one or both of them. For those who are uncomfortable reevaluating gender roles, or assuming new ones, this situation makes them uncomfortable. Compare this to, say, wrestling, where issues of latent homophobia are largely absent simply because wrestling is traditionally a same-gender activity.", "timestamp": "1365719742"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449457055135631", "anchor": "fb-449457055135631", "service": "fb", "text": "\"Homophobia\" is perhaps not the best word for a certain fairly widespread set of attitudes, varying in kind and degree, but generally expressive of discomfort with homosexuality. It's perhaps unfortunate to use it in this context -- even though I think, as the language currently stands, it's appropriate -- because its use tends to make straight men get defensive. :-) The fact that women dancing with women, and the idea of women gypsying each other, have been accepted for a long time, but the idea of gypsying with a man still makes many men uncomfortable, speaks volumes about our society's ideas about masculinity and gender roles. At the dances I go to (admittedly all more or less \"urban\"), I see these attitudes shifting, and I think the shift should be encouraged; I'm probably going to put some backs up by saying this, but men who are upset at the idea that another man might look at them in a way that could be considered flirtatious need to get over it.", "timestamp": "1365724672"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449457525135584", "anchor": "fb-449457525135584", "service": "fb", "text": "I meant to preface the above by saying: I'm getting into this discussion against my better judgement, because it's a thorny topic and I'm not going to have a lot of computer time over the next 4-5 days.", "timestamp": "1365724751"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449458821802121", "anchor": "fb-449458821802121", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm not upset at the idea that another man might look at me in a flirtatious manner; in fact, when it's happened in the past I've felt flattered, even though I'm straight and don't reciprocate the sentiment. But as a straight person, I'm made uncomfortable by putting myself into the same position with another person of my same gender as I would have with someone of my preferred gender (i.e. female). That is to say, there are certain types of relationships I am interested in having with women that I am not interested in having with men--the opposite is also true--and I think that I and other men who prefer a certain type of gender/orientation expression should be free to engage in activities that allow them their preferred expression.", "timestamp": "1365725065"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449458968468773", "anchor": "fb-449458968468773", "service": "fb", "text": "Or to put it another way: sometimes I don't feel comfortable holding another guy's hand. It's not something for me to \"get over\" any more than someone else's preference not to play contact sports is something for that person to \"get over.\"", "timestamp": "1365725114"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449459538468716", "anchor": "fb-449459538468716", "service": "fb", "text": "I think perhaps we're over-sexualizing things here. It's just dancing. It's supposed to be friendly.", "timestamp": "1365725302"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449459981802005", "anchor": "fb-449459981802005", "service": "fb", "text": "I guess that also depends on the way that one consumes dance. Is it something one does primarily for its own sake, or is it something one does as a way to socialize? Like, for me, rugby is something I do for its own sake, whereas when I've gone dancing it's been as a way to meet people or do something with someone I'm involved with. I think that's why I have the perspective I do, while others' experience/perspective is bound to be different.", "timestamp": "1365725457"}, {"author": "Adrian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449523491795654", "anchor": "fb-449523491795654", "service": "fb", "text": "Oh man, I couldn't stay away. I don't have all my thoughts in a row, but here are a few.
1) Who is being made uncomfortable by calling a men's swing or gypsy? The answer is homophobic men. (And also, to a certain degree, sexist men, in terms of how homophobia and gender roles intersect.) The flip of that question is, who is perhaps being made more comfortable? The answer is, anybody else.
2) I have a lot of thoughts and feelings on dancing, flirting, and consent in those two matters, which I have gone into on other threads a while ago. More dancing interaction between more men does provide a potential dynamic for men to flirt, or give it a shot anyway--and that's not a problem. What intimidates many homophobic men is the idea that there might not be consent in that situation (the gay predator trope). This fear also is related to the breakdown of gender roles and how power plays out across gender because this fear of flirtation or dancing turning non-consensual drives much of women's and feminine behavior and normative gender expression, constantly. The solution is not that nobody should dance with each other, or that nobody should flirt when dancing with whatever gender, but that it is consensual. I have not seen on this thread yet any discussion for what it is like for any woman (especially lesbian-oriented) to dance in the following role and address the possibility of unwanted flirtation with each new neighbor.
3) On that front, calling women's gypsies is something I have heard before. I haven't seen much, if any, calls of women's swinging. So although it's a theoretical possibility and although it is true that women of any sexual orientation are \"allowed\" to express more physical affection with each other *without it being perceived to be queer* the fact that it is not a regular thing means that it is not widely acceptable to do. On that note, while physical affection between straight women is more permissible in our society than any kind of physical affection between men or between men and women who are not romantically interested, that does not mean that homophobic attitudes towards women's dancing couples is absent from contra.
4) To conclude, I go back to the first point I made. Jeff, this is a no brainer. To call more same-sex interaction at dances works on one small level to chip away at homophobia and sexism in our society--and to bring freer and more enjoyable space to express gender, flirtation, and love how everyone sees fit. Those who you make uncomfortable are counter to those goals. Catering to their discomfort simply sanctions it. Call men's gypsies and swings already, and do it often! While you're at it, call up some more women's swings and gypsies too.", "timestamp": "1365737204"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449538995127437", "anchor": "fb-449538995127437", "service": "fb", "text": "Marianna: Thank you.
David: I don't think your analogy with contact sports holds. If you want to engage in the community activity that contra dancing represents, then it definitely is something for you to \"get over\".", "timestamp": "1365742418"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449638385117498", "anchor": "fb-449638385117498", "service": "fb", "text": "Well, I know the two are very different kinds of activities. But the sentiment I wanted to express was essentially that I don't think there's anything wrong with the kind of interaction we've been talking about, yet I also don't personally enjoy it--much as I know many other people don't personally enjoy playing rugby, yet (I hope) they are not opposed to the thought of anyone doing it. Am I wrong for not having as much fun as other people seem to be having, the few times I've gone to contra dances?", "timestamp": "1365775101"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449655448449125", "anchor": "fb-449655448449125", "service": "fb", "text": "Sorry if my comment above sounds reductive; I realize I may be making a strawman out of what is a very valid point. And using a social activity as a platform for shaking people's unconscious biases is definitely a good thing.", "timestamp": "1365779309"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449686855112651", "anchor": "fb-449686855112651", "service": "fb", "text": "No, I think I may have misunderstood what you were saying, and I didn't understand that you were only an occasional contra dancer. Nobody insists that you enjoy what you don't enjoy, I hope; my point would be that, if you find yourself in a contra line with a male neighbor (which could happen), you just grin and bear it. :-)", "timestamp": "1365783237"}, {"author": "Mike", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449707338443936", "anchor": "fb-449707338443936", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm so happy that, in my dance experience, one is always told what to do in no uncertain terms. The Joys of Ballet.", "timestamp": "1365788318"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449707525110584", "anchor": "fb-449707525110584", "service": "fb", "text": "Marianna brings up a very good point, somewhere in #2 -- gay men and women are asked ALL THE TIME in contradancing to do one of these potentially-flirtatious moves with people who are not of their preferred gender. If a gay man complained that women might try to flirt with him in the gypsy or the swing, you'd tell him to get over it. There's absolutely no way around it, as many of his neighbors will be women EVEN in a gender-free dance. He can let people know when they are flirtatious that it's not welcome, and they ought to stop, but he can't expect the caller to just never call the move. Why should we have different expectations of straight men and women?
Marianna, I would like to point out, though, that you've completely left out a large category of people in #1 who are made neither more nor less uncomfortable by these different calls. It's not true that everyone who isn't homophobic/sexist is necessarily going to feel anything has improved.", "timestamp": "1365788370"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449708095110527", "anchor": "fb-449708095110527", "service": "fb", "text": "Indeed, that's also very important to keep in mind. And Robert - yes, only occasional dancer here, I'm usually more into shape note singing.", "timestamp": "1365788512"}, {"author": "Adrian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/449201738494496?comment_id=449852158429454", "anchor": "fb-449852158429454", "service": "fb", "text": "Thanks Daniel. You're right that there are some people who may feel more or less comfortable in either situation. But that still brings me to my fourth point about how breaking down gender barriers ultimately does create more comfortable interactions between everyone by creating social norms that allow for a wider expression of gender and affection, which is good for everyone, even if they may not consciously feel that.", "timestamp": "1365823239"}]}