{"items": [{"author": "Sam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404310866268769", "anchor": "fb-404310866268769", "service": "fb", "text": "If I've tried to dance with someone and they're already taken, and/or the inverse happens, I usually don't feel guilty about booking. I also don't feel as guilty about booking at events with out of town people at dances where I'm not a regular (and potentially at dances where I am a regular, though I'm pretty irregular at my local dances.) In these cases, I feel like booking doesn't really contribute to the kinds of problems we typically associate with it and doesn't really affect the culture of a dance series...", "timestamp": "1336321182"}, {"author": "Jesse", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404311459602043", "anchor": "fb-404311459602043", "service": "fb", "text": "There's a place and a time. Overbooking at the Scout House harms my experience - as a relatively shy dancer, if I don't ask ahead and the gender balance is more males, I'll get left out of dancing more often. Solvable by booking ahead or being quicker to ask... but... there are nights where I'm not up to being that outgoing.
To your question, Jeff - my recommendation is to initiate yourself and allow yourself up to two bookings a night (your wife and one other). By allowing yourself two exceptions to the rule, your answer can still be that you try not to book ahead, and you can inform when you do that you'd like to make an exception. The best scenario here is a friend or faraway dancer who is back after long absence, visiting for a short time, or just someone you haven't managed to dance with in a while. You could try to reach them first until you succeed, but by allowing a specific exception to the rule you do minimal harm while improving your experience.
Of course, when someone you want to ask ahead asks you you can make the exception then... and if on rare nights there's reason to allow three bookings, that's still a limited number out of 9-12 dances", "timestamp": "1336321251"}, {"author": "Penelope", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404315306268325", "anchor": "fb-404315306268325", "service": "fb", "text": "I am a super occasional booker, I danced in Asheville last week three times, but did not stay for the whole of any dances, there was one person I really wanted to dance with (besides Erik Ewald, who I always want to dance with) and I ended up booking the second dance at the following night with him... other than that, I took my chances. I do not book ahead, but I also say no if I don't want to dance with who's asking (and I will dance with someone else) I think people book ahead so they don't have to say no to (or - Worse Yet - dance with) someone they don't want to dance with. It's a bit of a conundrum. I think if we lessen the emphasis on \"not allowed to say no and then dance with someone else\" we will have less booking ahead. It's tricky of course, and I rarely say no to someone I don't know... just my thoughts", "timestamp": "1336321703"}, {"author": "Penelope", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404316979601491", "anchor": "fb-404316979601491", "service": "fb", "text": "One other thought, a modification on the Mick Collins model. On Fridays, Mick would dance only with new dancers the first half, then his regular partners, old hands and new dancers the second half. You could always just book one half...", "timestamp": "1336321900"}, {"author": "Alex", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404318279601361", "anchor": "fb-404318279601361", "service": "fb", "text": "At NEFFA this year, Lisa & Scott organized a great discussion session about this topic. My feeling is, as long as you're thinking deeply about this issue, you're most of the way in the right direction. Beyond that, I disagree with your footnote in that memory is one of the most significant reasons why I don't book much, and one of the easiest to explain. If you're looking for ways to book occasionally, I suggest narrow criteria in which you let yourself book. You already have one: you'll book with Julia. You could expand that to booking with friends who infrequently dance in your area/at all. Generally, I feel okay booking a little with friends who I don't see very often. My main rule is that I won't book more than one dance out, because I will forget, and that's not okay.", "timestamp": "1336322052"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404329599600229", "anchor": "fb-404329599600229", "service": "fb", "text": "The effect of booking is the same, whether you are booking one ahead, 10 ahead, or whether you are thinking deeply about it. It means you are standing after a dance and people ask you if you'd like to dance, and you say, no, I have a partner somewhere. Booking is a divisive practice and it discriminates against those who are usually excluded, including newcomers, elders, slow, unattractive, etc. I don't book ahead, I think it's inconsiderate. I'd rather get stung by bees than book ahead. And I think the same of other exclusive practices, like the way people pile up in the fireplace set at the Scout House, though I dance there now and then (though not as often as in the rest of the hall).", "timestamp": "1336322871"}, {"author": "Ryan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404337542932768", "anchor": "fb-404337542932768", "service": "fb", "text": "I've seen the culture at Greenfield and the Scout House, and I agree that booking ahead can be toxic to a dance community. I've also seen Greenfield's culture change, and the amount of booking there decrease significantly. On a typical night now, I'll book about half my dances for the night, and leave the other half open. At one point that would have left me shut out a lot, but now it works pretty well. I definitely enjoy the dances with different people that would never happen if I were booking ahead - I often try to use those unbooked dances to ask new dancers or those sitting on the sidelines. That said, I do book some dances, and there is still plenty of booking at the dance.
It seems like there's a critical level below which it's not really a problem. If more booking than that happens, there's no longer a pool of free people in between dances and the community suffers. Beside the absolute number of dances booked, I think that not booking more than one dance ahead really makes the most difference. The dancers I've met who are impossible to get a dance with are always booked multiple dances out.
After all that rambling, I guess my advice is that you don't need a hard rule about booking, just so long as you're mixing booking and not-booking, and staying aware of the dance environment.", "timestamp": "1336323259"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404344119598777", "anchor": "fb-404344119598777", "service": "fb", "text": "@Alex: I wasn't able to go to their session because I had booked a dance with Audrey several months in advance. http://www.neffa.org/cgi-bin/public/showevent.pl...", "timestamp": "1336323950"}, {"author": "Gabe", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404345919598597", "anchor": "fb-404345919598597", "service": "fb", "text": "I think it varies from one dance community to the next and I'm okay with it. Here in the capital district, it's kind of a \"Cupid's arrow\" convention. After every dance, Cupid shoots everyone and everyone dances with the first person they see!", "timestamp": "1336324121"}, {"author": "Nora", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404348222931700", "anchor": "fb-404348222931700", "service": "fb", "text": "I don't book ahead, except for those who aren't \"in the mix\" (callers and musicians who are also dancing and don't have time to find a partner when everyone else is looking, newbies, perhaps shy out-of-towners). Personally, I find the culture of booking ahead distasteful (bordering on disrespectful and offensive), and won't go to dance series where there is a lot of booking.
*But* your comment \"If some booking makes me enjoy dancing more and so go more, is that good enough to outweigh the harm of booking?\" has provided a new perspective, and is food for thought.", "timestamp": "1336324335"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404364336263422", "anchor": "fb-404364336263422", "service": "fb", "text": "I think of booking ahead as a misdemeanor (like littering or spitting in the subway). Each instance might not be doing much damage on its own. But there's lots of booking ahead, and as I others have said, it has a negative effect on our community. It's like throwing trash on the floor of our dance hall. (But I only threw one piece of trash on the floor! But everyone does it!)
If you're asking whether your personal enjoyment outweighs the harm in booking, substitute some other petty crime in the equation, like littering, shoplifting, vandalism, and so forth. I understand you enjoy it. Most of us have favorite partners, we get that you do too, and that you prefer dancing with them. If you want to book ahead, go for it. But I'm not going to accept your self-centered justification for it. You may be in the majority, but I'll stand with my one vote of dissent.", "timestamp": "1336326001"}, {"author": "Emily", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404366372929885", "anchor": "fb-404366372929885", "service": "fb", "text": "I've had a lot of similar thoughts recently, having danced mostly at Vancouver Contra Dance! (which anyone should check out if you're out that way, it's great!) where almost no one books ahead, or people might book ahead if they ask someone who's already taken to dance, for the next one. I really don't like booking ahead, so I really try not to do it as much as possible.
I've been to two Concord dances since I've been back, Thursday and Friday. I usually try to not book ahead at all at Concord, to offset the huge number of people who only book ahead, but on Thursday, my first day back, I decided to try to be a bit more lenient and allow booking one dance ahead, and see what would happen. I would not initiate it, but would accept people who would ask.
For me, as someone who tends to get asked to dance more than asking others to dance, I had a similar spread of partners booking ahead than not booking ahead- I danced with both friends and non-friends who asked me to dance ahead of time. I also didn't have a partner for every dance booked- most of the first half I was finding a partner inbetween dances, and the second half I was all booked ahead, partly because my ride had to leave early and I could only stay for 3 dances.
Friday I wasn't booking ahead. They were playing one special dance, which was a request, I knew it was going to happen, and it was one of my favourite dances. I made an exception for that one because I wanted to make sure I was dancing with a friend for that one since it was one of my favourites that hardly gets played, and since almost everyone books ahead, I felt like in order to do that, I had to book it ahead as well. If people didn't really book ahead, I would have just left it and asked before the dance.
I find when I don't book, people who really want to dance with me won't book the dance they want to dance with me and will come find and ask me really quickly, so it's almost like booking, only not as in advance. It does allow the chance that someone else would find me first and ask.
I do agree that sometimes I want to make sure I dance with someone, but they book ahead and then I can't dance with them- this happened with one person both Thursday and Friday- they were completely booked and I still haven't danced with them. I think that your views on booking in moderation are a good start, but I also think that maybe booking only one in advance when you do, or reserving booking several dances in advance for special purposes (ie I've only done that recently when a friend was leaving for a long time, and only had one dance left unbooked before he was leaving early).", "timestamp": "1336326172"}, {"author": "Jan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404416732924849", "anchor": "fb-404416732924849", "service": "fb", "text": "Great discussion. I don't book ahead, don't worry about what I'm missing, pull folks from the sidelines a lot, and have many great spontaneous experiences. Have been turned down plenty by those who book ahead, including people I'd really like to dance with. It's depressing, but doesn't make me want to start booking because that changes the energy of the event -- introduces the stress of remembering, and makes it feel too cliquish. Plus I don't like turning people down (though if you don't want to dance with someone it should be fine to say no.) For me not booking is the only way to go. So Jeff, I can't answer your question, but look for me any time you're not booking.", "timestamp": "1336331292"}, {"author": "Linda", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404417552924767", "anchor": "fb-404417552924767", "service": "fb", "text": "I find heavy booking dance series distasteful, and avoid them. More fun to mix and mingle. To those afraid they might have to say 'no' to someone they really don't want to dance with... well, just say no. If necessary, you could even say why, tho that's pretty drastic. (For example, I will say no to anyone who's repeatedly caused me physical pain, and who won't modify for safety. And it might be useful for the person causing injury to know why, for the good of others.)", "timestamp": "1336331391"}, {"author": "Taviy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404425069590682", "anchor": "fb-404425069590682", "service": "fb", "text": "Moderation! When booking becomes an overwhelming feature of a series's culture, it can indeed be toxic, because as Andrew points out it marginalizes less sought-after dancers. However, to me it's not enough to paint it with a broad brush; several variables determine how booking actually affects a dance community.
Personally i'd say i book about 1/3 of the time, and usually with specific purposes. Sometimes when i see a novice dancer who i could help out, i'll book them. I generally only book \"next dance\" during swings (or on occasion circles/allemands, if i'm inquiring of a same-gender dancer's willingness to partner), or prearrange a general intention to find a friend during a given festival session or portion of the evening so that we're on the lookout for each other. How about the \"where\" factor - booking ahead can have different motivations and implications at a huge festival versus an MUC. And of course Jordy Williams has promised to dance with me sometime next year. :P
Lisa & Scott's session had two wonderful take-homes: examining your partnering behavior shouldn't be about passing judgement on what others do, but considering how your behavior affects you as well as others; the determinant of how constructive or destructive booking is to the community is how mindful one is of the bases on which partners are chosen . Choosing partners who will engage me helps keep me motivated as a dancer, and using our dance time to affirm key links in our wider contra network can be positive for the community, as can offering to take a newbie under your wing for the next dance - and what about purposely booking ahead with someone who you notice is often marginalized by timidity or low self-confidence (people who tend to stick to the sidelines during the thick of partnering)? Much as a caller would evaluate an evening's choreography choices, mindful dancers should evaluate how the evening's partnering choices ripple outward. Which force was stronger overall, the ripples of affirming connection or the ripples of exclusion?
The trick, it seems, is how to avoid the domino effect of \"sorry, i have a partner for the next dance - but the one after that?\".", "timestamp": "1336332152"}, {"author": "Ryan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404426352923887", "anchor": "fb-404426352923887", "service": "fb", "text": "If someone I ask to dance already has a partner or needs a break, I may ask for the next dance (or vise verse if I'm the one being asked). There are also a few friends who I don't regularly dance in the same places with, who I may book ahead with. Otherwise, if there is someone I want to dance with but I haven't managed to catch them yet, I may comment at the break or something that I'd like to dance with them at some point. Since I don't usually book ahead, if we're both looking for each other, I've found we can usually connect at some point following that.
I find that the culture of booking ahead and dancing primarily with friends makes dances feel unwelcoming to not only new dancers, but dancers new to an area who aren't yet in an established social circle or aren't regularly able to come to a dance. Especially given that I am on the shy side, I found it hard at first to socialize and dance with people my own age when I first moved to Boston. It seemed that everyone was already clustered off into their own groups. As a result, I've found that I have met and dance with a wide variety of people of varying ages and experiences. Sure it can be frustrating sometimes dancing with beginners, but it can also be great to dance with someone and see as the dance goes on that they are starting to \"get it.\" And some of my favorite dances have been with people I've never met, when we end up talking in 20 second increments over the swing the whole way up or down the floor.", "timestamp": "1336332300"}, {"author": "Linda", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404428662923656", "anchor": "fb-404428662923656", "service": "fb", "text": "Variety is the spice of life! Yes, I'll very occasionally book one dance (usually 'next one') with a rarely seen out-of-town friend... but other than that, no.", "timestamp": "1336332506"}, {"author": "Linda", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404430299590159", "anchor": "fb-404430299590159", "service": "fb", "text": "Many times in book-heavy dances, I've spent the entire evening just dancing in lines with mostly out-of-towners. Even if this is my own town! If my face is unfamiliar, it seems as tho folks don't want to 'risk' a dance with me... and this has also happened to friends. All are good dancers, but unknown to the particular group, and it seems like no one wants to take a chance on a newcomer. How sad! We could all have a lot more fun by mixing more.", "timestamp": "1336332660"}, {"author": "Melissa", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404445806255275", "anchor": "fb-404445806255275", "service": "fb", "text": "I truly hope this is okay to say here. I realize that it\u2019s a different opinion than most have posted.
I unabashedly book \"the next dance\" at most contradances. (I book much less at English dances, because the various issues are much diminished at ECDs.) I happily make exceptions in order to dance with people who don\u2019t book.
There are a number of reasons, but the main one is this:
There is an archaic, but I believe still followed rule at social dances that essentially states: \"If you refuse a dance when one is offered, *for any reason*, you must then sit out that dance (or risk being seen as breaking this rule and offending the asker).\"
As a result of being impacted by this rule when I started dancing, in 1994, I started booking ahead. My reasoning for continuing has been thus: If I want to dance, I want to feel safe, and be comfortable, and to have fun. Various factors can influence whether or not I feel safe and comfortable during a dance. If I've not felt safe or comfortable with someone, then I won\u2019t want to dance with them. But also, if I haven\u2019t found someone to be fun to dance with when I\u2019ve encountered them (and, given that these days, I manage to dance about 6 dances on one evening every few weeks or so), then I won\u2019t want to dance with them.
Each of us dances for many reasons. One of the main reasons I dance is for fun. If it isn\u2019t fun (or if I'm being caused physical or emotional pain), I won\u2019t come dancing any more. I\u2019d like to believe that I bring mostly positive energy to the dance, even if I\u2019ve booked ahead the 6 or so dances I\u2019ve managed to do every month.
I had this discussion in great detail with Larry Jennings after he read a comment I posted to rec.folk-dancing (anyone else remember the Usenet boards? ;-) ) to this effect. We agreed that this rule should somehow be squashed, and I agreed that if it were, I'd give up booking ahead. But so far as I can tell, it is still there. One way to squash it would be to try to propagate what George Marshall teaches in his monthly beginners\u2019 sessions: \"If someone refuses a dance, I assume they have a good reason for it; and so I say thank you, and move along.\"", "timestamp": "1336334249"}, {"author": "Jan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404460852920437", "anchor": "fb-404460852920437", "service": "fb", "text": "Melissa's point is valid. How best to say \"no thanks\" to an asker without feeling you must have a reason (e.g., 'I'm tired') and miss the next dance? Who has actually done this successfully?", "timestamp": "1336335861"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404472549585934", "anchor": "fb-404472549585934", "service": "fb", "text": "I have mixed feelings about booking ahead. I never book further than the next dance, and I don't actively try to plan out the whole dance. I have been trying lately (and I know that I need to be more active about this) to ask people to dance who I haven't danced with before, and especially try to ask someone who I see has been sitting out. I have turned down a 'next dance?' invitation specifically so that I could ask someone who was sitting.", "timestamp": "1336337130"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404473906252465", "anchor": "fb-404473906252465", "service": "fb", "text": "As long as Melissa mentioned the Usenet boards, yes, I remember them. I was probably the first person on the ARPANET/Internet (yes, really) to discuss booking/reserving ahead at contra dances. I don't remember which post it was, but maybe it was this 1983 one in net.singles (before there was a rec.folk-dancing or FDML Folk Dance Mailing List). It was part of a discussion about sex/sexisim in singles relationships:
http://groups.google.com/.../bro.../thread/88fdf69fe8c61adc/
That note was part of a discussion of how in our modern day (30 years ago), the culture still seemed to maintain a \"men pursuing women\" bias, and a discussion of reserving dances ahead in that context. This was very soon after I moved from dancing in Princeton, NJ (where there was no culture of reserving ahead) to here in Concord/Cambridge (where reserving ahead was virulent).
And here's another one from 1990, soon after the start of rec.folk-dancing:
http://groups.google.com/.../brow.../thread/454b3e756531396/
Just so you know that my opinion about reserving ahead isn't one that I've only cultivated in my old age - I felt pretty much the same about it when I was in my early 20's and ever since.", "timestamp": "1336337281"}, {"author": "Kim", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404520802914442", "anchor": "fb-404520802914442", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff Kaufman - \"by saying \"I don't book\" I might be discouraging it and so helping make the dance a more welcoming place.\" For me, this simply hasn't worked. Instead, it has resulted in there being a set of dancers with whom I will never dance. I've even figured out who some of them are and don't bother asking them any more.", "timestamp": "1336342493"}, {"author": "Kim", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404521102914412", "anchor": "fb-404521102914412", "service": "fb", "text": "Melissa - Regarding the \"rule\" that \"If you refuse a dance when one is offered, *for any reason*, you must then sit out that dance\", one way to squash it at least in your own mind might be to consider the reasons for having such a rule, and whether following it actually achieves those goals or, instead, has resulted in other behaviors (like rampant booking) that are actually counter to those goals. I'm totally with Larry and George on this one.", "timestamp": "1336342526"}, {"author": "Heather", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404524909580698", "anchor": "fb-404524909580698", "service": "fb", "text": "I don't book, for many of the same reasons people have given above, and generally I will respond to a person asking me to book by telling them just that. I usually will also let them know that if they find me for a dance, I'd love to dance with them. I agree also that occasional booking is probably fine, but when do dance in places like Concord or Greenfield I just try to avoid it entirely. When it comes to festivals I guess I'm a little more divided...what are other thoughts on that?", "timestamp": "1336343041"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404549749578214", "anchor": "fb-404549749578214", "service": "fb", "text": "I was taught not to book ahead and the \"the only acceptable no is to sit the dance out\" rule. It's resulted in me sitting a lot of dances out, particularly in places where it's weird for girls to ask people to dance (like Spokane).", "timestamp": "1336346501"}, {"author": "Gabe", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404571552909367", "anchor": "fb-404571552909367", "service": "fb", "text": "I guess I'm basically agnostic. If booking is part of the folk tradition in a given area, and it's a social norm, I can respect that.", "timestamp": "1336347759"}, {"author": "Sally", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404574459575743", "anchor": "fb-404574459575743", "service": "fb", "text": "Great topic. My overall stance is that some booking is okay.
My habits depend on the dance. I tend to book the first two dances in the second half of an experienced dance. I will accept booking one dance ahead if someone has asked me. If someone else asks to dance with me for a dance I have already booked, I try to seek that person out later to \"make up\" for saying no earlier.
Some of it depends on the day I've had or who's at the dance. At a dance with a lot of beginners I tend leave myself free to dance with the shy ones at the back of the hall. On a day when I don't have a lot of energy to spare, I tend to stick with the dancers who won't wear me out and allow myself to get booked ahead. And I have a standing reservation with Rob for any dances we attend together.", "timestamp": "1336348215"}, {"author": "Barry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404595766240279", "anchor": "fb-404595766240279", "service": "fb", "text": "i thought dancing was supposed to be fun, not some kind of strategic warfare! so if i were in this booking culture i could basicaly end up dancing all evening with only the people i percieve would be fun to dance to? hmm... that wouold be an interesting experience. i do find the short time one gets to run around and find the person you want to dance with rather stressful. at some dances it's not much of a problem, at other dances it is. but since it's a social dance and not my own private dance party with a date, i guess i'm not there for onlly my own pleasure, eh? sometimes i find it difficult to find the balance.", "timestamp": "1336351220"}, {"author": "Barry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404596782906844", "anchor": "fb-404596782906844", "service": "fb", "text": "i never thougt of booking before till a month ago when i had a very difficult time finding partners and someone said to me that's because people ask in advance. this was a revelation. i haven't tried it yet.", "timestamp": "1336351362"}, {"author": "Gabe", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404607042905818", "anchor": "fb-404607042905818", "service": "fb", "text": "Today, at English country dancing, I \"asked\" someone to dance simply by making eye contact. Then when we were in the line, she said \"Did we agree to dance together?\" and neither of us could really remember (and then we had a good laugh and a fine dance). And isn't that sort of nonverbal communication incredibly important for social dancing?", "timestamp": "1336352353"}, {"author": "Laura", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404610722905450", "anchor": "fb-404610722905450", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm another product of the Swarthmore Folkdance anti-booking/'only refuse a dance that you'll sit out' system, but I'll bend the rules every once in a while: for booking, I will sometimes accept a \"next dance?\" query from a friend with whom I rarely get to (and really want to) dance; for refusing one partner and accepting another, I'll accept if more dancers are needed to complete or fill out sets.
My anti-booking stance is largely self-serving, or at least self-interested, however. Since I'm currently a pretty itinerant and infrequent (and shy) dancer, I'm not a familiar enough face anywhere I go to be incorporated into regular dancers' booking considerations.
There's one other problematic aspect of booking that I haven't seen mentioned here yet: On a few occasions, I've had a partner jump ship and scurry off after we've already joined a set, when, due to a cut or change in the dance program, the next dance has become one that he (or she) had booked with someone else. This has happened less at contras, where the program usually isn't publicized and people tend to care less about which dance they do with a specific partner, except when the next dance turns out to be the couple dance before the break. But it's not a great feeling to be left stranded when you had been expecting to dance.", "timestamp": "1336352816"}, {"author": "Linda", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404648182901704", "anchor": "fb-404648182901704", "service": "fb", "text": "Jan and Melissa, I routinely feel comfortable saying 'no, thanks' to an inviter if I have my own good reason, and I do accept other offers. This is not arbitrary, and is based on both physical and emotional comfort. (If someone wants to know why, I tell them. Otherwise just the quick and polite 'no, thanks'.) No is always as good an answer as yes in a social situation, as long as it is done politely (and quickly enough that the other can ask another to dance). And indeed, I remember the lengthy discussion on rec.folkdancing long ago, and discussing the issue with Larry Jennings and others. (Feeling OLD!)", "timestamp": "1336357465"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404649992901523", "anchor": "fb-404649992901523", "service": "fb", "text": "Great topic.
I first started booking ahead when I moved to the northeast, as a matter of self-preservation. I find that I'm too shy to handle the mad scramble between dances, so if I want a parter for the next dance I need to ask farther in advance (in certain dance communities). I find it's generally harder for me at bigger events. I try not to book beyond the next dance, both for memory and community reasons.
I'm quite cognizant of the harm booking ahead can do to a community--this is more or less the root of my complicated relationship with the Scout House, where I've often felt shut out; there've been times at the Scout House where I couldn't get a partner for more than half the dances, and it's not like I'm a beginner or even that new to the Scout House. So I try to book ahead _only_ for good/\"good\" reasons, only when I need/\"need\" to. And I try to do several things to mitigate this: I often make a conscious effort to seek out beginners in the first half of the evening (although I don't book ahead with beginners, so I often fail to get to them in the mad scramble...), I decide on certain nights to hold a strict no-booking policy, etc. I have a policy of essentially never saying no when someone asks me to dance, unless it's an experienced dancer when I'm trying to dance with new dancers, or I'm literally unable due to exhaustion or hunger.", "timestamp": "1336357695"}, {"author": "Larry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404673682899154", "anchor": "fb-404673682899154", "service": "fb", "text": "I generally didn't book ahead at contras back when I was dancing more contras. If there is a lot of booking going on it can be difficult to get a partner and one can feel left out. One solution is to be willing to dance the other gender's role. In groups with many more women than men many women do this for most of the night after deciding that it is better than sitting out nearly every dance. In ECD I am more likely to book ahead so I can dance favorite dances with my wife or perhaps a niece, daughter in law, or someone else we have taken to the dance.", "timestamp": "1336360909"}, {"author": "Lee", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404675696232286", "anchor": "fb-404675696232286", "service": "fb", "text": "I danced 15 hours at NEFFA 2 weeks ago, and only booked the contra medleys. Booking can get you in trouble, trying to remember your sequence of future partners...", "timestamp": "1336361210"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404676876232168", "anchor": "fb-404676876232168", "service": "fb", "text": "(Gillian, Sarah Pilzer, Michael Friedman, Alice Kaufman - this grew out of yesterday's conversation.)", "timestamp": "1336361370"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1336367951"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1336368330"}, {"author": "Emily", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404762756223580", "anchor": "fb-404762756223580", "service": "fb", "text": "With regards to the turning someone down and then having to sit out mindset- I think there are certain situations, like have been mentioned, where it's ok to turn someone down. I don't usually do it, and when I do, sometimes I feel badly about it. Tonight I turned someone down because I'd already danced one dance with him, there were a shortage of women, and I was looking forward to dancing with a few other people I hadn't had the chance to dance with yet. I did still feel badly about telling him no, but I didn't feel like by telling him no, I had to sit out that dance.
The only other people I ever turn down when I don't already have a partner or when I want to sit out are people trying to book me way ahead (so I tell them that I'm not booking that far ahead, come find me later), and then the one or two people I have ever felt uncomfortable dancing with- there aren't many of them, but because dancing with them does not make me feel comfortable, I don't care if they end up not wanting to ask me to dance anymore because I don't want to dance with them. I agree with Linda that saying \"No, thanks\" politely and in a timely manner should be an acceptable response, as well as providing them with a reason if they ask.", "timestamp": "1336369929"}, {"author": "Rachel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404766796223176", "anchor": "fb-404766796223176", "service": "fb", "text": "Like Melissa, I tend to book ahead. Normally my rule is two dances past the one I'm currently in, or the waltz in specific cases. I've been booking more constantly than I like (as a side-effect of moving to the east coast, where it's much more common than Seattle/Portland) but it's always been a part of the communities I danced in to some degree and I see no problem with it in considerate moderation.
There are a couple of reasons I prefer to book. I was 12 and only just starting to dance seriously when I was taught that the only way to say no was to sit out. It's still ingrained in my brain - I get inexorably guilty if I run into someone in a line that I turned down for that dance. Even to this day, this still means I sit out a number of dances out of a feeling of politeness \u2013 and often by the time I\u2019ve politely turned someone down (instead of brushing them off, which I see happen a lot) the rush of partnering is over and I would generally end up sitting out anyways.
As someone who grew up dancing with men most of the time 40+ years older than myself, I\u2019ve learned to be really careful about who I dance with on a given night. I\u2019ve got a lot of hidden physical issues, and while I can do lots of fast twirls and fancy flourishes it\u2019s still extremely easy for me to get hurt. One of the ways I\u2019ve learned to protect myself is by making sure I\u2019m only dancing with people I know have the skill to keep me safe \u2013 I compensate for this by paying close attention to anyone I run into, so that I\u2019m aware of the technique of even the people I don\u2019t know. I hate the feeling of turning down multiple people or a single person repeately because I'm not comfortable with how they handle me - it is simply easier to already have a partner. This also applies, as Melissa said, to feeling safe emotionally. If there\u2019s someone I\u2019m trying to avoid, often booking ahead is the only polite way to turn them down repeatedly. I have been known to completely quit attending dances because of repeated safety issues with people, either emotionally or physically.
Another issues is that I really, really hate the rush for finding partners. Even as a highly social extrovert I find it extremely uncomfortable - a feeling akin to the pressured days before high-school dances to find a date, any date. On nights when I'm not entirely on my game, I'll sit out dances rather than risk approaching people and risk rejection for whatever reason.
So yes, I book ahead. Mostly it\u2019s out of a preference to be able to dance with people I know won\u2019t hurt me, and not feel like I have to sit out because I turned someone down. After getting to this coast, I\u2019ve seen that in order to dance with the skilled dancers who can keep me safe I almost have to book ahead. I\u2019m definitely not against having people I don\u2019t know ask me to dance \u2013 I\u2019ll almost always ask them to do the next one if I\u2019m confident that I\u2019ll be safe. If I\u2019ve already booked for the near future, I tell them I\u2019ll find them later for a dance and always make a point to seek them out later. Yes, another part of why I book is selfish because the people I\u2019m booking with tend to be the really good dancers, but those aren\u2019t the only people I book ahead with.
Booking has been a part of every dance community I grew up in, and I was taught that with consideration and moderation, it\u2019s entirely okay. There are nights I know I overdo it, but for the most part I feel like it\u2019s a reasonable thing to do as long as it\u2019s not to the purposeful exclusion of those not within a certain circle.", "timestamp": "1336370872"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404777262888796", "anchor": "fb-404777262888796", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, thanks for starting this conversation.
I think booking ahead is a big problem. It's one of the reasons I don't dance in Concord half so often as I used to. Also why I would absolutely, never again bring a beginner to that dance hall.
When I go to a dance like BIDA, I feel I can take my time about finding a partner, and I will still be able to dance. This is not stressful, as it an be at other places. If I dance in Concord, I feel that I have to be ready to ask a partner IMMEDIATELY after one dance ends. I can't stay for a few seconds and speak with my previous partner, because I'll have lost that opportunity already with others. At Concord, I will often ask someone for the next dance the second the previous one ends -- and, probably more than half the time, they already have a partner even though I didn't wait a second. Once I've asked one person who already had a partner, most of the others have found partners in those 5 seconds, so it becomes that much harder.
I often find I have to ask 5-6 people before I can find a partner in Concord. Frankly, that's really offputting even for an experienced dancer, and discourages new dancers from even trying, or ever coming back. This is primarily a result of booking ahead, and I believe it's a much bigger issue among the youth and the fireplace set in Concord than the rest of the hall, but it's a problem throughout.
We have a lot of excellent, energetic dancers in Concord, and a fabulous hall with usually excellent performers, but I think the dance etiquette is really poor.
Now, I'm not 100% against booking ahead. I will on a rare occasion book ONE dance ahead, if someone asks me and I already have a partner. But even that I won't do often, and I never initiate the booking ahead. Even booking just one dance ahead is really problematic if you do it all the time, because it means that people who aren't booking ahead can never dance with you.
If you're booking ahead to avoid having to say no to specific people you don't want to dance with, I think you just need to learn that \"no thanks\" is an okay thing to say. Because, booking ahead is a really indiscriminate way to apply your \"no\" to many great dancers and people you'd enjoy partnering with, along with the few people you're avoiding for good reason. Is it really that hard?", "timestamp": "1336373206"}, {"author": "Carl", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404816189551570", "anchor": "fb-404816189551570", "service": "fb", "text": "\u2026
I read this posting this afternoon and then went to the BIDA dance this evening.
I arrived in time for the second half.
I said to myself. \"OK, I'll not book ahead tonight, it's BIDA, things are different here.\"
By the time I'd finished thanking my first partner for the dance, the partner-finding frenzy was over. I was fortunate to find the last available female in the hall (where she'd been during the frenzy I do not know).
We had a very pleasant dance. During which I pointedly did not try to book the next dance. BIDA you know.
The partnering frenzy ended nearly instantly this time.
So I sat out.
I read the sign on the wall encouraging dancers to dance with those who had been sitting out, and placed some hope in that.
It was a vain hope.
The frenzy was over by the time I stood up after the music stopped.
I sat out again.
Looking at the clock I figured that was the last contra.
When the we're-squeezing-in-one-more contra was announced, I managed to find a partner, I wasn't the only surprised person.
And during that dance, I booked the waltz thankyouverymuch.
What I've learned is that if I'm at a dance that has more askers than askees and I'm in the asker role, and I want to dance, I have to plan ahead.
If I don't, I have _seconds_ to find a partner once the music stops.
If I fail that, _maybe_ an askee will show up after the frenzy, but counting on a partner to appear out of the bathroom or come in off the street is poor planning.", "timestamp": "1336382272"}, {"author": "Linda", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404852766214579", "anchor": "fb-404852766214579", "service": "fb", "text": "Yikes, Carl -- really sorry to hear that. Bad news for us all...", "timestamp": "1336386589"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404867539546435", "anchor": "fb-404867539546435", "service": "fb", "text": "My main reason for not booking ahead anymore is that I tended to forget that I booked with alarming frequency. That ended up in double booking - and when that happens someone's going to get their feelings hurt or see me in a negative light because I have to not dance with one of them and they might wind up sitting out. That's not good. At a weekly dance I never book ahead - I figure if I don't get to dance with someone this week I'll try again next week. An exception is when there is an out-of-town dancer that I REALLY want to dance with who I won't see for a long time. That person I'll book with. When I am dancing out of town, and there is a dance where there is a booking ahead culture, then I do wind up sitting out a lot because everyone seems to be booked, and I walk out of that dance with a bad taste in my mouth. I think there is something to be said about the broader dance community as well as wanting to dance with your friends. I think that both can be tended to in the same evening. Personally I think that EVERYONE should dance with a new person for at least the first two dances to help get them started. That \"community-within-a-community\" can get kind of insular.", "timestamp": "1336389303"}, {"author": "Marlin", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404874872879035", "anchor": "fb-404874872879035", "service": "fb", "text": "At some formal dances they use cards to book dances maybe having more dances that use cards and a code that stops booking at other dances would be a good compromise.", "timestamp": "1336390497"}, {"author": "Jan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404903962876126", "anchor": "fb-404903962876126", "service": "fb", "text": "BIDA organizers (as well as YDW, where I & others had similar experiences) should take note of Carl's experience. We haven't mentioned the role of callers ... they can calm the frenzy or at least expose it. I don't dance much any more but would love to attend an experimental no-booking-ahead evening, where it's not so important who you dance with or whether you take the other gender role.", "timestamp": "1336394690"}, {"author": "Gillian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404910846208771", "anchor": "fb-404910846208771", "service": "fb", "text": "Carl - I'm surprised (and sorry) you had that experience at BIDA last night. I was at that dance, and had a really nice time finding partners, without booking ahead (I'm in the \"will occasionally book the next dance if I encounter an out of town friend, musician, caller, or sound op who I will probably only get to dance with once a year\" practice, because it's part of maintaining a strong community. A big part of community building is welcoming new people, dancing with people you don't know well, expanding your circle of people you dance with - and part of maintaining that community is keeping up on dance friendships, which, occasionally, for me, necessitates booking ahead.)", "timestamp": "1336395639"}, {"author": "Gillian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404919846207871", "anchor": "fb-404919846207871", "service": "fb", "text": "Anyways, my experience of the partner search at BIDA (at the end of each dance, a fairly equal mix of quickly being asked to dance by other people, looking around for someone in particular I wanted to dance with and moving towards them, and moving towards the outside of the hall to get a drink of water before asking someone or being asked to dance) was really pleasant. I danced with a few people I hadn't seen in a while, and several I'd never seen before. It's very possible that my experience comes from privileged place - I'm young, female, a good dancer, equally comfortable leading and following, and while I don't dance a whole lot right now, I've been dancing in Boston for a long time and other long-time Boston dancers know that I'm a good dancer, even if I'm not part of the popular crowd. At this particular BIDA dance, there was a fairly big gender imbalance (more men than women), which led to a lot of men sitting out. I went to the bathroom between dances, and when I came back in asked the man who had just been tending the door if he wanted to jump in. I did this not only because he definitely hadn't danced at all yet, but also to avoid the meat market. I'd forgotten about the asker-askee dynamics of some dances, potentially because if I really want to do a dance, I will ask someone, anyone, regardless of gender, age, or dance experience (if the only people available are ones who have previously looked down my shirt of twisted my arm out of my socket, I might sit out, but this is rare), to dance. I don't like the partner frenzy at the end of each dance either - but I wonder if some part of it is fed by the not booking ahead rule (ie, people refuse to book ahead, but still have very specific people they want to dance with, so as soon as the dance ends they run to find them, as opposed to taking a few moments to look at who is around them). Once the partnering frenzy ends, though, if I don't have a partner, I find one. Again, I recognize that I'm in the fortunate position of being young and female and able to lead and follow, so I can ask pretty much anyone to dance and they'll be happy to, whereas it seems like many men are unwilling, unable, or worried about making other men uncomfortable by doing the same (although at BIDA, this seems to be less of a problem than at many other dances). I think that the partnering frenzy is at least as big a problem as booking ahead - but am not sure how to avoid it. At Scottish dances, everyone clears the dance floor after each dance, then waits for the band to play a snippet of the next tune before coming back and looking for a partner.", "timestamp": "1336396866"}, {"author": "Linda", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404934972873025", "anchor": "fb-404934972873025", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm an older female, experienced at dancing both sides of the set, non-booker. Finding partners is sometimes an issue, when folks don't recognize my face, maybe think I'm a newbie or out-of-towner. This shouldn't stop anyone from dancing with me, but does seem to be the common denominator when I go partnerless.", "timestamp": "1336398844"}, {"author": "Linda", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404936382872884", "anchor": "fb-404936382872884", "service": "fb", "text": "I've had an odd phenomenon backing this idea up: I strongly resemble a well-known and well-liked contradancer in the Boston area. When I do get invites, the folks are addressing me as 'Cathy'! Fortuitous, but odd.", "timestamp": "1336399005"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404944479538741", "anchor": "fb-404944479538741", "service": "fb", "text": "@Carl: I'm sorry. That sounds like it wasn't much fun. Our gender split was about 50/35 male/female last night, which is quite a bit worse than usual. We do have lots of men who are willing to dance with each other, but this still meant lots of men were sitting out after not finding someone they wanted to dance with.
\"What I've learned is that if I'm at a dance that has more askers than askees and I'm in the asker role, and I want to dance, I have to plan ahead.\"
The thing is, all the extra \"askers\" who don't want to dance with each other are going to be sitting out. By booking you can make sure you're not one of the ones sitting out, but that doesn't help this situation overall.
As for the partnering 'frenzy', in which people partner very quickly after a dance, I'm not sure what to do about it. It was worse last night than when we have a more even balance, men trying to make sure they don't sit out, but it's always more frantic than I'd like. Have other dance communities tried to do anything to slow the booking process?
(I also don't like this askers/askees thing, in that I would prefer asking to be something that both genders did about the same amount.)", "timestamp": "1336399963"}, {"author": "Jan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404948662871656", "anchor": "fb-404948662871656", "service": "fb", "text": "Gillian's comment about Scottish dancers clearing the floor between dances is interesting ... would like to know more.", "timestamp": "1336400484"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404958676203988", "anchor": "fb-404958676203988", "service": "fb", "text": "Carl - last night's BIDA dance had a LOT of extra men. I danced with other men a lot, sat out some, and left half an hour early. I did not book ahead (as always). I noticed that there were a fair number of women who danced together, which is their right, but is somewhat vexing in this situation. I think it's even more selfish to book ahead when there's a gender-imbalance, others might think it's more important to book, to make sure they get what they want - finding opposite sex partners in an unbalanced hall is a zero-sum game. Depends on your perspective.", "timestamp": "1336401766"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404963416203514", "anchor": "fb-404963416203514", "service": "fb", "text": "@Gillian: I wouldn't put \"able to lead and follow\" in with the other privileges so much. It's a skill you've developed which is beneficial to you personally and also to the community as a whole. The more people who can dance both roles the less imbalances are a problem. Many more people would have this skill if they decided to acquire it (by dancing gender-swapped on an easy dance etc).", "timestamp": "1336402337"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404983109534878", "anchor": "fb-404983109534878", "service": "fb", "text": "I agree with comments about the gender imbalance last night. I really don't think BIDA is as bad for needing to find a partner instantly as some area dances, but it was harder last night than usual, mostly I think because of the gender imbalance. Many men started to see that there were fewer women, and they might run out if you took too long to ask a partner, and that led to more rushing to find a partner rather than be left out. My father, whom I brought for his first contradance last night, had a good time overall, but he also had difficulty finding partners because he wasn't comfortable jumping into that. I helped him find a few partners, but he still ended up sitting out a number of dances. Sitting out some by choice, but I think also by just not asking fast enough. I suspect last night that no girl had to sit out a single dance for lack of a male partner.
Gender balance is a difficult issue. Some events force a gender balance, with quotas, but I disagree with this practice as a whole, and think it's particularly impractical and unpleasant for a local, regular dance. So, given that there is potential for substantial gender imbalance, what do we do about it? You can try to discourage same-gender dancing among the less-represented gender (as Andy was pointing out, women dancing with women in the already male-heavy crowd), but this is a sort of discriminatory practice if you're discouraging women who prefer to dance with other women, so that men can dance with them instead.
I think probably the most productive thing that can be done is encourage people to learn the other role. As a man who doesn't book ahead, and typically isn't the first into the fray to find a partner either, I ran out of women to ask quite often last night -- so I asked men. As a result, I didn't have to sit out a single dance.
I do think it's sort of rude to ask someone of your own gender, though, if you're not willing to dance the opposite role. Unless you know the person, and they swap often or you know they're comfortable with it. I mean, if I don't know a person, I think it's fair to assume they know their own gender-role, and I have to be willing to make the swap to be the one who asks. I don't think you have to be great at the other role, but you should be willing, rather than expecting the other to do it for you.
Although they will probably never be as mainstream as standard contradances, it's worth noting that gender-free dances will never have these problems.", "timestamp": "1336404791"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=404989482867574", "anchor": "fb-404989482867574", "service": "fb", "text": "Worth mentioning also, it is REALLY HARD to change the culture of a dance hall once it's really established. Because of the sorts of experiences Carl mentions. I mean, encourage people in Concord not to book ahead individually, and you just get the people who listen failing to find partners while the people who book as they always did continue to do the same -- hardly likely to encourage those who listened to do it again. It really needs to be a hall-wide experiment to find out how it works for the overall dynamics. A caller could request this, but given how much luck callers have had asking people to leave the fireplace set, I wouldn't expect it to work even in the short term.", "timestamp": "1336405497"}, {"author": "Gillian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=405030092863513", "anchor": "fb-405030092863513", "service": "fb", "text": "Jan, I'm not sure how the Scottish practice started or how widespread it is - it's just a cultural thing at Pinewoods and at Boston sessions. Scottish dancers in general are much better at following rules than contra dancers (perhaps because you have to pay attention because dances aren't called, or maybe it's just the general dynamic), so I'm not sure how well it would work. I'll ask some Scottish dancers if they know any more about the origins/theory. Andrew, most young women in Boston learned to dance both roles early on, because at the VFW there were often a lot more women than men. There are also fewer bad female leaders than bad male leaders (maybe because they've all had the experience of dancing both roles, and know what makes for a good leader), and sometimes it's just fun to dance with someone of the same gender (or a particular person, or someone who is easy to switch roles with, etc. It doesn't actually matter why some women choose to dance with same gender partners some of the time - it's just the way it is, and, I think, not something that \"ought\" to be changed. Women (at least in most dance communities in the northeast) by and large don't fuss when the gender balance skews the other way - they just dance together. More men can learn to follow. It might be good for them, and would probably make them better leaders. I understand that it's \"vexing\" to have a choice between sitting out the dance, or dancing with someone of the same gender - maybe it would be helpful to think of them as \"new to same gender\" (or \"new to following\") dancers.", "timestamp": "1336408683"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=405033726196483", "anchor": "fb-405033726196483", "service": "fb", "text": "@Daniel, @Andrew: \"discourage same-gender dancing among the less-represented gender\"
I think this is not a good approach. If two people want to dance together then they should do so. When dancing with another man at woman-heavy dances I've been approached by couples of women trying to split us up, and I don't like it. I'm dancing with my (male) friend because we wanted to dance together!
To me the gender of my dancing partner matters some, but isn't that important. Learning to care about it less, partly by learning to be comfortable in both roles, makes a lot more sense to me than discouraging people from dancing with other people just because of their gender.", "timestamp": "1336409104"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=405035956196260", "anchor": "fb-405035956196260", "service": "fb", "text": "@Gillian: \"Women (at least in most dance communities in the northeast) by and large don't fuss when the gender balance skews the other way - they just dance together\"
Somewhat. With dance camps and dance weekends that do gender balancing to avoid extra women it is generally the women who want it. (It's also the women who don't want it, because they're the ones getting excluded. But the places that have decided to keep it are ones with more women who want it than not.) So you could call that fussing.", "timestamp": "1336409345"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=405094202857102", "anchor": "fb-405094202857102", "service": "fb", "text": "Yes, Jeff, I agree. I mentioned it because Andy had alluded to it, but also said it seemed a discriminatory practice. I think the better approach is teaching people to be comfortable dancing with whichever gender is available -- but, of course, you can't force it, and some people will still be left out.", "timestamp": "1336415656"}, {"author": "Linda", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=405178042848718", "anchor": "fb-405178042848718", "service": "fb", "text": "Yes, yes, yes, to encouraging comfort levels in dancing with anyone, even same-gender. It's fun, and you learn so much about what's comfortable (or not)!", "timestamp": "1336425102"}, {"author": "Linda", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=405179696181886", "anchor": "fb-405179696181886", "service": "fb", "text": "Also... lots of folks are now referencing a shortage of women contradancers in Boston area, along with the idea that the ladies prefer (sometimes) to dance with each other. Clue time. Ladies like to contra just as much as the gents. So, the fact that they're staying away in droves and/or booking other women as safer (or just more fun) partners sends up a big red flag. LOTS will have to change in the local culture in order to remedy this situation! And even once changes are made, it will take a while for the news to get around to the ladies that the venues are 'safe' and fun again...", "timestamp": "1336425292"}, {"author": "Linda", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=405183366181519", "anchor": "fb-405183366181519", "service": "fb", "text": "For a while, Boston English got a reputation as cliquish. The problem wasn't too bad, but the reputation was awful. We collectively Took Steps, and the reputation changed. Lots of new folks coming now. Contra, especially male contradancers, will have to seriously look at behaviors and make some changes asap, or lose more ladies and worsen the desperate booking situation. Too rough? Too cliquish? Not listening? Lacking basic courtesy? Fix the problem, and the ladies will return, eventually.", "timestamp": "1336425672"}, {"author": "Gabe", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=405185936181262", "anchor": "fb-405185936181262", "service": "fb", "text": "In my ideal world, people would ask each other to dance by eye contact alone!", "timestamp": "1336425950"}, {"author": "Gabe", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=405186289514560", "anchor": "fb-405186289514560", "service": "fb", "text": "(I'm kidding. Sorta.)", "timestamp": "1336425982"}, {"author": "Gabe", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=405190519514137", "anchor": "fb-405190519514137", "service": "fb", "text": "It just occurred to me that scatter mixers are *great* for helping dancers develop nonverbal asking/accepting skills.", "timestamp": "1336426441"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=405294482837074", "anchor": "fb-405294482837074", "service": "fb", "text": "Linda, your \"clue time\" comment is not based on a large data set. There are many contra dance evenings that are well gender balanced, and there are different factors that might upset the gender balance (and other sorts of balance) in a dance hall, including: pirce, location, popularity of band/caller, night of week, other concurrent events, etc etc. It's not even clear that women are looking for \"safe fun\" (for whatever meaning of safe you happen to intend.)", "timestamp": "1336436003"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1336436939"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=405340556165800", "anchor": "fb-405340556165800", "service": "fb", "text": "@Linda: \"lots of folks are now referencing a shortage of women contradancers in Boston area\"
Really? Last night was unusual I would say. Normally dances are pretty even.", "timestamp": "1336441877"}, {"author": "Gabe", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=405352492831273", "anchor": "fb-405352492831273", "service": "fb", "text": "Justin, thanks!", "timestamp": "1336443223"}, {"author": "Gabe", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=405364216163434", "anchor": "fb-405364216163434", "service": "fb", "text": "Is it possible that part of the problem at Greenfield is that it's generally not brightly lit? Making cabeceo more difficult?", "timestamp": "1336444713"}, {"author": "Linda", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=405388786160977", "anchor": "fb-405388786160977", "service": "fb", "text": "Hi Jeff -- I'll stand corrected, for the moment. (I'm also thinking of the reasons given for friends not wanting to go.) But the observation still holds -- if you ever find a shortage of one gender, look for an underlying reason. There will be one. I doubt price and location are large factors, unless one gender is clustered in a geographic or economic space (rare). Band might influence choices -- some bands are too loud for my taste, even with ear plugs, and even tho I actually like the music, but that's not gender specific, is it?. Concurrent events -- maybe, but why gender difference?", "timestamp": "1336447942"}, {"author": "Ryan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=405425256157330", "anchor": "fb-405425256157330", "service": "fb", "text": "One factor that might somewhat influence the gender balance at some BIDA dances, is there is a reasonable overlap between people who dance at BIDA and people who dance at JP for gender free contra. JP typically has more male identified dancers, for what I suspect is a variety of reasons including some dance related and some not. As such, BIDA, regardless of the gender balance on any given day, ends up being one of the more comfortable, non-gender-free dances for men who want to dance at least sometimes with other men and draws a sizable gay/queer male crowd. This is not to deny that other factors might play in, but I do think that the above plays some role at BIDA.", "timestamp": "1336454149"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=405614182805104", "anchor": "fb-405614182805104", "service": "fb", "text": "Followup post: https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/451362608223725", "timestamp": "1336487476"}, {"author": "Miranda", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=405635986136257", "anchor": "fb-405635986136257", "service": "fb", "text": "Lots of interesting things on here, but I haven't seen one of the reasons I dislike booking ahead mentioned yet: When I'm dancing with someone, from the time we line up until a couple moments after the dance ends and we thank each other, I see myself and my partner as having a special, temporary dancing-relationship. Having someone walk over from another line and ask them (or me) for the next dance, having them cross the hall to book with someone else, overhearing their negotiations with someone else during a neighbor swing, or negotiating during my own neighbor swings (usually with an \"I'm sorry, I try not to book ahead but hopefully we'll find each other later\"), makes my dance experience less special and less fun. Same with the rush to find a new partner practically before the band is done playing - I want the time to acknowledge and thank my partner before moving on to the next. For me the remedy is not booking, my own personal willingness to miss out on dancing with folks who are rapidly booked up, and in the ideal world going to dances with a culture of slower partnering.", "timestamp": "1336490279"}, {"author": "Gabe", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=405951442771378", "anchor": "fb-405951442771378", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm almost wondering whether the whole pairing off thing is all a little quaint anyway. At this year's Dance Flurry Festival, Quena Crain called some dances that involved some rather intense shadow interaction--that is, where your shadow was elevated to the status of a second partner. That proves that we're capable of having partners assigned to us, and it won't make the world blow up.", "timestamp": "1336526356"}, {"author": "Frank", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=406674342699088", "anchor": "fb-406674342699088", "service": "fb", "text": "I mainly dance at the Scout House and book ahead for purely selfish reasons - with my other commitments I only have a limited amount of time each week to go out dancing, and so I want to make the most of my time by dancing. Sometimes when I arrive in the middle of a dance, I stand up on one of the chairs, scope out the field, and bam I know who I want to dance with that night - sometimes booking while standing on the chair and holding out a certain number of fingers. While I have some favorites, I generally don't care who it is as long as they are energetic. Once at the break I booked four because I wanted to dance with four Westboro women in a row (who are usually energetic). Once I booked four Amandas in a row, thinking it was some kind of record - though I'm not exactly sure one of them was actually called Amanda, so I might not have broken it. Once I booked five dances in a row so I could beat my record of four. It's like a game to me. Sorry, everyone.", "timestamp": "1336625094"}, {"author": "Molly", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=406688016031054", "anchor": "fb-406688016031054", "service": "fb", "text": "Responding to something that was a while back up there... Jeff objected to Carl's use of gendered \"asker askee\" language but the way I interpreted Carl's word choice was that he was actually removing the gender... i. e. some leads and some follows, male or female, prefer to be active in asking others to dance and some don't.", "timestamp": "1336627909"}, {"author": "Heather", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=406810532685469", "anchor": "fb-406810532685469", "service": "fb", "text": "I stopped booking at the Scout House a while ago, since I was finding that the same men booked me each week... Despite the fact that I certainly enjoy dancing with those men, this meant that I was unable to dance with anybody else! I found that when I stopped booking, I ended up having much more of a choice of who I danced with, and I was able to dance with more new dancers and other dancers that I hadn't been able to dance with in a while. Although this meant that men that always booked ahead would never dance with me, some made an exception and purposefully did not book a dance so that we could dance, which I really appreciated. I'm guessing that this lack of choice in regards to who one dances with due to booking is more of an issue for the women, since it is more often the men that ask to book (although not always), but I was glad to find that by not booking, I had much more of a say in who I danced with and was able to actually dance with some beginners from time to time!", "timestamp": "1336651933"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=406850729348116", "anchor": "fb-406850729348116", "service": "fb", "text": "@Molly: but Carl wrote \"a dance that has more askers than askees and I'm in the asker role\"
This only makes sense if one of the dance roles is the asker and the other is the askee.", "timestamp": "1336657828"}, {"author": "Mycroft", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=406859519347237", "anchor": "fb-406859519347237", "service": "fb", "text": "I can attest that not booking makes for a very frustrating evening. Nash equilibrium\u2026", "timestamp": "1336658870"}, {"author": "Molly", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=406875636012292", "anchor": "fb-406875636012292", "service": "fb", "text": "I don't know, Jeff, maybe it's a matter of interpretation but it seems to me that if he meant \"askers\" to mean men or leads he would have said men or leads...", "timestamp": "1336660691"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=406907702675752", "anchor": "fb-406907702675752", "service": "fb", "text": "@Molly: he's describing a situation where there are two groups of people who want to pair off into couples containing one of each group, and where one group does the asking. \"if I'm at a dance that has more askers than askees and I'm in the asker role, and I want to dance, I have to plan ahead.\" It really looks to me like he means \"askers\" as leads/gents.", "timestamp": "1336664533"}, {"author": "Carl", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=406908152675707", "anchor": "fb-406908152675707", "service": "fb", "text": "\u2026
The 'If\" at the beginning of that sentence was meant to apply to both clauses.
My 'asker/askee' language was borne out of a half-formed imagining of a dance where the minority role (lead/follow) was *the* role empowered to do the asking. Only then would the posted suggestion to 'Dance with those who were sitting out' even be feasible.", "timestamp": "1336664592"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=406908866008969", "anchor": "fb-406908866008969", "service": "fb", "text": "@Carl: so the dancers would either notice or be informed by the caller that there were fewer of gender Z and so that gender would be the one supposed to ask people to dance?", "timestamp": "1336664683"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1336665679"}, {"author": "Carl", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=406923372674185", "anchor": "fb-406923372674185", "service": "fb", "text": "\u2026
yes, but not by gender, by role.
With this system, at a typical Scout House dance, the asker would be asking to dance the follow role.
It would change the dynamic tremendously.", "timestamp": "1336665726"}, {"author": "Micaya", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=406925476007308", "anchor": "fb-406925476007308", "service": "fb", "text": "So I don't dance contra on Boston specifically because the times I've danced here, I've sat out way more dances than anywhere else. Booking seemed much more prevalent, and the communities more cliquish. I'm already no good at finding partners in a mad rush between dances -- I'm painfully shy, though I think I compensate for it better than I used to -- and asking someone only to find they are rushing off to someone else tends to take up the entire time, leaving me out for a dance.", "timestamp": "1336665815"}, {"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=406933269339862", "anchor": "fb-406933269339862", "service": "fb", "text": "I rarely book ahead; my usual practice is to only book 1/2 a dance ahead; if I meet someone in a set that I've been hoping to get a dance with I will ask in passing. I rarely do this more than once or twice in an evening. I will accept a book one dance ahead, but no further. (If I ask someone to dance and they say \"I have a partner. How about the next one?\", I will accept.) Having not booked, I have found that I am often faced with the choice between dashing away from my previous partner with only a prefunctory thankyou and getting a late start on the game of musical chairs.
I also don't like the \"Sit out if you've declined\" rule. As someone who is more often an asker than an askee, I see the flip side of Melissa's dilemma. I don't want to put someone in the position of either dancing with someone they'd rather not dance with or sitting out when they'd rather be dancing. As a result, I am reluctant to ask someone for a dance if I'm not sure they will accept.
90% of the time I am sitting out at a dance I would rather be dancing.", "timestamp": "1336666157"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=406943412672181", "anchor": "fb-406943412672181", "service": "fb", "text": "@Carl: right, sorry!", "timestamp": "1336667333"}, {"author": "Emily", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=406955762670946", "anchor": "fb-406955762670946", "service": "fb", "text": "Daniel- I am _strongly_ against the idea of asking the less-present gender to not dance with each other (in this case, asking the women not to dance with other women) for the same reason that I am not okay with asking the more-present gender to learn both lead and follow roles:
It is *not* okay to tell people that they should not dance with whom they are comfortable dancing.
If I, as a young, (dare I say, decently attractive) female, feel more comfortable dancing with other women, it is my RIGHT to be able to dance with them *without* judgement. Dances are my safe place; I should be allowed to feel comfortable there. The problem was not that women were dancing with other women or that more men should have been dancing with other men. The problem was that because of the nature of the not-booking-ahead rule coupled with the lead-heavy nature of that evening, there was, indeed, a frenzy and a lot of leads sitting out.
This was not an ideal situation, this much is obvious. I think that it would be more productive to brainstorm ideas of how to prevent such a situation in the future instead of asking people to change the dancing role with which they are comfortable.", "timestamp": "1336668864"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=406973226002533", "anchor": "fb-406973226002533", "service": "fb", "text": "@Emily: I see how a limited booking ahead gives more of a rapid partnering frenzy, but how does it give us more leads sitting out? Isn't that just from which dancers want to dance which roles?
I see trying to break up same gender couples and suggesting people learn to dance both roles as really different. Telling women at a man-heavy dance or men at a women-heavy dance not to dance together is unfair, yes. It has happened to me, and I really don't like it. But if I have learned to dance both roles and am happier for it, I think I *should* be suggesting to other people that they might want to learn to do it too.", "timestamp": "1336670930"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=406988686000987", "anchor": "fb-406988686000987", "service": "fb", "text": "Emily, I think you misinterpreted my comments. I mentioned all the options on the table, but was not endorsing that option. To quote: \"You can try to discourage same-gender dancing among the less-represented gender... but this is a sort of discriminatory practice.\" I totally agree with you and was not trying to suggest that as a good way of dealing with the problem.", "timestamp": "1336672732"}, {"author": "Emily", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=407002255999630", "anchor": "fb-407002255999630", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm sorry, Daniel, I should have been more clear: I understood that you were not endorsing this course of action. It was simply because you were the person who mentioned it that inspired me to tag you. In short, I tagged you because I am agreeing with you.
Jeff- I understand that not all dances are lead-heavy, I was simply using last Sunday's dance as an example.
I dance both lead and follow. I think it's good fun and love to switch it up. The problem that I am having with the \"you should try switching dance roles\" comment is not so much that it is an unfair thing to ask of someone (although, I do find it a bit wrong to tell someone to dance a role with which they are not comfortable), but more to the point, I find it quite invalidating. In the case of Carl, he was sharing a negative experience and was hoping to shed light on a subject that he found important. To tell him that he would not have had that problem had he simply changed roles is negating his purpose in sharing his experience and essentially saying that his experience was his own fault. At least, this is how it comes off to me.", "timestamp": "1336674345"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=407088945990961", "anchor": "fb-407088945990961", "service": "fb", "text": "@Emily: I see. Thank you for explaining. I should apologize to Carl.
Carl: thank you for posting your negative experience. Reading it I, it did make me sad that after I had encouraged you to do something, you had such a bad time trying it. It helped me understand more why people book. When I followed up by suggesting more people learn to dance the opposite role I was not trying to indicate that you personally should stop caring about the gender of your dance partners or which role you dance. It would help in cases where we have a major gender imbalance for more if more people learned to dance both roles, but only in as much as they enjoy it. If you don't think that it's for you, I'm not going to tell you otherwise.", "timestamp": "1336683730"}, {"author": "Cory", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=407564199276769", "anchor": "fb-407564199276769", "service": "fb", "text": "Wow, this is definitely a popular subject! When I was a lot younger and danced in greenfield, I had a very different goal in contra dancing than I do today. When I first started, I found it hard to break into the fray, but once I got to know folks, I definitely booked up my night and was pretty much a \"contra snob\". I actually mostly started dancing in Amherst though, which had a pretty different feel most of the time; it was much more of a community dance than greenfield was. Fast forward to CA, where I lived near San Francisco, at some point I decided booking was becoming a problem for the community as a whole and I took a hard stance on pretty much never booking. This did make it so I pretty much danced with a few guys who booked many dances ahead. The other interesting thing was, there were pretty frequently more women than men there. Although I'd danced the lead role before, I started doing it fairly frequently because I didn't like the weird competition for a partner; often when there were many more women, I would wait till the rush was over, then ask another woman to dance, which felt much better than \"fighting\" my way through to ask a guy to dance! The few times there were more guys, I often felt creeped out by their rush to grab partners, in fact, I would have been more inclined to break my booking policy at that point than any other. Once I moved out here, I have relaxed my booking policy to some extent. I mostly don't book- and people have mostly stopped asking me after being told several times I try not to book- sometimes though, especially if I'm tired or in a bad mood, I really want to dance with someone, or don't feel like I can handle dancing with others. I think its a pretty good balance for both me and the dance community. Although my tendency would be to head towards my friends when its time to get a new partner, I often wind up dancing with someone I wouldn't have otherwise and it often winds up being a good experience. Sometimes the person just winds up being a nice dancer, sometimes we have a great conversation or find something interesting in common, sometimes its a beginner who is grateful to me for helping him/her through the dance. Occasionally, its just a bad experience overall and you chalk that up to life. Oh, as for the whole \"you must sit out if you say no rule\", I don't subscribe to that. Mostly I don't say no, if I do, its either because I already have a partner, because I'm tired, or because this person is too rough, smells, or is a letch; I feel I have the right to say no to any of those and ask someone else to dance, if I so desire. I usually mumble something like \"I'm all set\", which could be interpreted so many ways, so the person can assume I already have a partner and not be offended if they see me with someone else. Overall though, I don't often have a problem with guys asking me that I definitely don't want to dance with; possibly thats because I'm told my face is an \"open book\" and the rare guy that totally offends me for whatever reason likely knows it.", "timestamp": "1336754026"}, {"author": "Kelley", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=407757729257416", "anchor": "fb-407757729257416", "service": "fb", "text": "This discussion spilled into real life discussions with friends recently and I think it's great. Here\u2019s my opinion on Booking.
Sometimes I book. Sometimes I don't. For a while I've had the rule that I would only book one ahead. This was partly because booking more than that leads to horrible things like double booking or forgetting people and partly because there was a general distaste for booking that I went along with. I don\u2019t think the problem is booking. I think the problem is that some people are getting left out. Some people aren\u2019t getting to dance with people they want to whether or not booking is involved. And I\u2019m not entirely sure how one would fix that. I\u2019ve found that most people agree that the mad rush to find partners between dances is not fun. Booking to some extent gets rid of that rush. Honestly, this discussion made me want to book more. By booking more I could probably dance with both popular dancers I might not get to dance with otherwise and with less popular or shy dancers that might not get to dance with me otherwise. By booking (sometimes only in my own head for those dancers that refuse to book) I think I could get to dance with a more varied group of dancers and avoid the sometimes insane rush to find a partner.
That being said, sometimes I\u2019m only comfortable dancing with my friends. Not because they are the \u2018cool, hip dancers\u2019 but because they are the people I feel safe with, both physically and emotionally. And I think it is totally acceptable to only want to dance with certain people as partners. One of the many awesome things about contra is that you get to dance with lots of different people. For some people, that might only mean dancing with them as neighbors and I think that\u2019s okay. You\u2019re still dancing! Jeff, basically I\u2019m saying that I think your presence as a dancer with whomever you choose as a partner (and however you choose said partner) far outweighs any possible negative effects of booking.
I, also, believe that people should always have the right to say no for whatever reason but should try to do so politely. And I think it\u2019s interesting that some people find that they can\u2019t find partners at the scout house because I tend to take the role of askee and am (most of the time) perfectly happy sitting out if I don\u2019t get asked. Basically what I\u2019m saying is that just because I didn\u2019t ask, doesn\u2019t mean that I will say no if you ask me (though sometimes I will say no and I hope you\u2019ll understand since I\u2019ve had to say no at one time or another for a variety of reasons to probably everyone I regularly dance with).", "timestamp": "1336776480"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=408037582562764", "anchor": "fb-408037582562764", "service": "fb", "text": "Oh man, not this again!
Kelley has once again hit the nail on the head: the problem isn't booking, it's the choices dancers make. You can use booking to be welcoming, or to exclude, but you don't need booking to do either.", "timestamp": "1336815578"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=408230045876851", "anchor": "fb-408230045876851", "service": "fb", "text": "The biggest \"harm\" from booking is the creation of cliques. These cliques deny beginners the possibility of learning from the more experienced dancers, and deny the experienced dancers the opportunity to expand their experiences, including the gratitude from newbies. Pay it forward; it's a living community.", "timestamp": "1336839646"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=408380232528499", "anchor": "fb-408380232528499", "service": "fb", "text": "Kelley, re: booking and partner rush, I disagree. If you're booking, absolutely, yes, it helps to deal with the partnering rush FOR YOU. But I think a culture where lots of people book ahead makes the partnering rush that much worse for anyone else in the hall who doesn't. Case in point, Concord, which has the worst partnering rush of any dance I've ever been to, and also has a culture of booking. For people who don't book, a large proportion of the folks around us already have a partner before the previous dance ends, so instead of just asking one person to dance in the \"partnering rush\", I have to be prepared to ask 3, 4, or even 5 people in that time since several might have booked ahead (and the rest got partners while I was asking those first couple people who were already booked).
I think booking also is related to the \"fireplace set\", and why it's so insulated from the rest of the dance hall (though that's a whole other can of worms). Because most of the dancers in that set book during the dance, they end up always booking with other people in the same set, which creates an exclusive sub-community that doesn't interact very much with other Concord dancers. This isn't inherent to booking ahead -- one could make a point to book sometimes with beginners or to go to dancers in other sets and people you might not otherwise dance with to book a future dance -- but it does seem to be the most natural way that it happens.
Nor does it mean people shouldn't ever book, but I really think it's problematic for a dance culture when most people book ahead most of the time. Aside from lack of a car, this is one of the major reasons I don't dance in Concord a tenth as much as I used to, compared with other dances around me, even though I think it has great dancing/calling/music. The way partnering works at Concord is just uncomfortable for me, and I feel that alleviating the problem for myself by booking ahead only makes it worse for other people (like me) who don't.", "timestamp": "1336856853"}, {"author": "Kelley", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=408417145858141", "anchor": "fb-408417145858141", "service": "fb", "text": "Daniel, in Concord, do you know if the partner rush started before or after the booking culture? I think the partner rush in Concord could be from the high energy level of dancers there. Many people want to find partners as quickly as possible so they can keep dancing with little interruption. It could be a matter of order. At some dances, the order is find partner, line up, dance, mill around chatting, find new partner. In concord, I think the order is different\u2026something more like find partner, chat/line up, dance, find new partner, chat/line up, dance OR for one ahead bookers find partner, chat/line up, dance/find new partner, chat/line up, dance/find new partner OR for more extreme bookers find (5) partners, chat/line up, dance, chat/line up, dance, etc. For people who are unfamiliar with that order or don\u2019t like it, it might be hard to get the partner they want without booking. But if there is any balance in the Hall one should still be able to find a partner.
I don't like the assumption that people who book exclude beginners (or anyone). Based on conversations with friends, I believe many of them DO include new dancers in their night of booking. If I wanted to, I could probably book an entire night with people I've never danced with. Or without booking, dance an entire night exclusively with specific people. I've had negative feelings about booking in the past because people told me it was bad and I foolishly believed them without really examining the issue. If I want to say yes to the first person who asks for that dance, I will have to say no to anyone else who asks. Some of these noes will go to friends and many will go to newbies, shyer people, or slower or older dancers that just couldn\u2019t get to me fast enough. If I wasn't taught that booking was so horrible, I could ask for the next dance or the one after with these people. It has to do with who asked me first. I suppose that makes me exclude people but the only way to fix that would be to say no to the first people who ask me (which I think is rude) or book with those dancers that can\u2019t get to me fast enough. I know there is also a different experience for people who take the role of 'asker' versus 'askee'. As I said in my earlier comment, I am often in the position of \u2018askee\u2019 (just because that\u2019s the role I\u2019m comfortable in). The role of \u2018asker\u2019 is less familiar to me but when I do take that position I try not to get offended by people already having partners. I do suppose that if I was often in the asker role I might get frustrated by how quickly certain people I might want to dance with find partners (whether or not they are booking ahead) but I also know that if I really want to dance, I will dance with who ever will dance with me. Dancing with people as neighbors can be just as good as dancing with them as partners.
Can we please separate booking from being exclusive? By having a partner in a dance, one is being exclusive. I have found a way to fix that problem. I won\u2019t take a partner. I\u2019ll just run through the set dancing with whoever grabs me but I wouldn\u2019t suggest that for everyone. For some reason, I really don\u2019t think that would work.", "timestamp": "1336861442"}, {"author": "Cory", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=408489425850913", "anchor": "fb-408489425850913", "service": "fb", "text": "haha, Kelley, this is kind of unrelated, but your last comment just reminded me of a funny story! One time when I lined up without my partner (or he left quickly after we lined up to get a drink or something), the couple in our foursome asked me, somewhat dubiously \"Do you have a partner\"? I replied \"No, usually if I just line up and stand here, a guy will show up eventually and want to dance with me\". Them hummed and hawed for a minute, seemingly trying to figure out the best way to explain to me that this wasn't how it worked... fairly soon after my partner arrived and I smiled and said \"see, here comes one now! It always works out!\" I'm actually not sure if they ever quite figured that out. I've done that several times since in response to that question, but never quite so successfully :)", "timestamp": "1336872463"}, {"author": "Nick", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=408771402489382", "anchor": "fb-408771402489382", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm in favor of booking ahead. When a dance is over I appreciate being able to take time and properly thank my partner, and let them know that I appreciated the dance. Usually this takes about 45 seconds to a minute. By the time this period is over the asking frenzy has begun come to a head, and ended. I've sat out a few times because I was trying to be nice and properly thank someone leaving me with nobody to dance with.
I've also gone to the kitchen for a drink between dances after finding a partner and been asked to dance. It feels much better to say \"next one\" rather than simply I may find you later (because this is not dependable).
I've also got my girlfriend who is guaranteed one waltz and one contra every dance we go to. This can be hard to arrange without any booking ahead.
There are also times when a good friend you don't see often is at a dance with you. You want to dance with each other but I guarantee that if they are a popular dancer and you are as well lining up a time to dance becomes next to impossible unless you book ahead. Since I prefer to dance with friends I don't see often precisely because the opportunity doesn't come up often I unabashedly will arrange to dance with them in advance.
There is also the slightly darker side to all of this which I haven't seen anyone bring up. Often when a new woman shows up she is set upon by a number of men who for lack of a better word are creepy. This happens extremely often if she is young and attractive. I like dancing with new people to help them out, and dancing with a new woman can be difficult at times, especially since I\u2019m not as good at grabbing them after a dance is over due to wanting to thank my partner.
Booking also provides an excuse to some women who don\u2019t feel comfortable saying \u201cno\u201d unless they don\u2019t have a partner. I\u2019ve been asked to dance during a dance numerous times by friends who say \u201cDance with me next dance, this guy keeps coming up to me and asking me to dance with him and I don\u2019t want to,\u201d or while I\u2019m looking for someone to dance with a woman will grab me and say she booked a dance with me when she didn\u2019t which is code for \u201cI don\u2019t want to dance with someone so I told him I booked even though I didn\u2019t.\u201d I know this isn\u2019t the nicest thing to do but it lets some women out of the \u201cI can\u2019t say no unless I sit out,\u201d loophole that some men exploit.
Some of these things aren\u2019t the nicest things to say but that doesn\u2019t make them any less true. There are a lot of issues to deal with in the dance community, but this one has rarely given me a problem even when I set out not to book ahead (Even though I book ahead I usually only do so about half the time.)", "timestamp": "1336913512"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=408910079142181", "anchor": "fb-408910079142181", "service": "fb", "text": "Kelley, I haven't been dancing in Concord long enough to say whether the partner rush or the booking culture came first. I can say however, that I can order the places I've danced semi-regularly for a sufficient period of time by the level of booking ahead, top to bottom -- Concord, Greenfield, BIDA, JP and Williams College -- and that if I tried to order them by the urgency of the partner rush I've felt dancing there, the order would be exactly the same. Correlation doesn't prove causation, but it gives a fair reason for a stronger look. And for anecdotal evidence, one of the reasons I'm always so rushed to find someone is that the first person I ask very often says \"sorry, I already have a partner\" (even if there hasn't been any time for them to get a partner since the last dance, hence booking ahead.) If I take a relaxed pace in asking someone, I won't get a second chance to ask someone else.
I've had friends comment to me that they asked some popular dancer during the first or second dance of an evening for a dance sometime in the night, and the person will already be booked up through the whole evening. Doesn't this sound exclusive? If you weren't there at the beginning of the night, whoops, it's already too late, for the whole night. Or for others, it becomes a way to dance only with the people they know -- they dance with the first person they want to dance with, and then for the rest of the night when many people ask you they'll say \"sorry, I already have a partner\", but when their friend asks, they'll say \"sorry, I already have a partner -- next dance?\" And yes, I know that not everyone does it this way, but I think it's more common than you realize. It becomes exclusive very often because people take that extra step only with the people they most want to dance with, which leaves out those who aren't already a part of that community, or who don't book ahead.
If you book ahead differently, making a point to target some beginners and people you don't know, or people sitting out on the side, good for you! If most people who booked ahead did that, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I'm really not against booking sometimes, to allow you to get a dance with your girlfriend, or that out-of-town friend you don't see often, etc., but when it's the whole night, and when it's a large proportion of the people at the dance, I think it creates problems for the rest of us.
If people are booking to say \"no\" to someone they don't want to dance with, then maybe that's a whole separate issue. Can't we just get rid of the rule that you're always supposed to accept the first guy who asks you? You should be able to say \"no\" if you want to, and still dance with someone else, and you shouldn't need to pre-empt an offer in order to do this. I think this might be worthy of a whole separate discussion to address. How many people subscribe to this rule, how many actually think it's a good idea, and how many do all sorts of otherwise unnecessary things in order to circumvent it?
Also, Kelley, I think the dynamic for asker/askee in the \"partner frenzy\" is COMPLETELY different for a guy and a girl, at least at non-gender-free dances. It may have loosened somewhat, but it is still vastly more common for the guy to ask the girl. You may have issues with how to say no when you're asked by several people for the same dance. As a guy, that's virtually unheard of. If I waited for someone to ask me, I would sit out probably 90% of the time. I may not be creme-de-la-creme, but I'm an experienced dancer and generally well-regarded at the dances I attend, I believe. So if that's the way it is for me, I'm sure it's far worse for newer dancers and people outside the local community.", "timestamp": "1336930167"}, {"author": "Cory", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=408993652467157", "anchor": "fb-408993652467157", "service": "fb", "text": "one little thing I'd like to add is that I think there is a big difference between Concord on Thursday nights and Concord on Monday nights. I believe (perhaps wrongly) that when most people refer to \"Concord\", they are referring to the thursday night crowd. I find its a very different culture on monday nights, particularly on a less crowded monday night.", "timestamp": "1336938624"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=409205092446013", "anchor": "fb-409205092446013", "service": "fb", "text": "Good point, Cory. It has been probably over a year since I've been to Concord on a Monday, so what I've said about that hall applies primarily to the Thursday dances.", "timestamp": "1336964015"}, {"author": "Cory", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=409205675779288", "anchor": "fb-409205675779288", "service": "fb", "text": "You should check it out on a monday sometime, the monday crowd tends to be very community oriented :-) I'm not sur ewhat tomorrow will be like, as its techno-ish (although that will make it fun in its own right!)", "timestamp": "1336964094"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=409206592445863", "anchor": "fb-409206592445863", "service": "fb", "text": "Yeah, I've been before, but it has been a long time. I recall them being more or less a smaller version of Thursdays, years ago, but I've heard they're carving out more of an identity for themselves recently. I'll give it another chance.", "timestamp": "1336964231"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=409641835735672", "anchor": "fb-409641835735672", "service": "fb", "text": "@Kelley: I think the partnering rush is older at Concord. In fact, I think it used to be even worse. Back when there were many dances where the actives did almost everything people really wanted to get partners quickly so they could get to the top and be ones for most of the dance. The lines were long enough that if you started at the bottom you might not get to be active at all, and in many dances that was quite literal: mostly meant standing still.", "timestamp": "1337022689"}, {"author": "Gabe", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/404301022936420?comment_id=409755739057615", "anchor": "fb-409755739057615", "service": "fb", "text": "Seems like there's a refreshing consensus of agnosticism here....I like.", "timestamp": "1337034584"}]}