{"items": [{"author": "Nick", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/618128538332?comment_id=618130604192", "anchor": "fb-618130604192", "service": "fb", "text": "I think we should. People are going to do them anyway, why not make sure they have a way of learning to do them well, safely, and without interfering in the flow of the dance.", "timestamp": "1372426819"}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/618128538332?comment_id=618130848702", "anchor": "fb-618130848702", "service": "fb", "text": "The folks that don't like flourishes in their contra set are quite vocal, and they tend to make workshops encouraging behavior that they dislike to be scarce. Trouble is, just like teens and sex, you can't stop it from happening, so you might as well teach it so they do it safely.
The thing about flourishes is that as you get more of them, you can start appreciate doing them at an appropriate time, instead of all the time. I'd love to teach a workshop on increasing dance move vocabulary, so that folks can learn the cues for the appropriate time to do certain moves, and when to stick with solid connections and unified behavior.", "timestamp": "1372427063"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/618128538332?comment_id=618134626132", "anchor": "fb-618134626132", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm one of the folks you're talking about who \"doesn't like flourishes.\" (Hi Danner!) I agree with you somewhat that \" like teens and sex, you can't stop it from happening, so you might as well teach it so they do it safely.\"
It's not that I don't like the idea of adorning contra dancing. I think if flourishes actually made contra dancing better, everyone would like them. Flourishes tend to work for the couple who does them, but they interfere with the flow of the dancers around them. Sadly, most people who do flourishes aren't aware of the dancers around them, and that's the problem.
Flourishes that show a lack of awareness are in some contra syncretist videos, for example this popular one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbyoOPc0rHQ
This may look like fun, and it may work at a swing dance in your own space, but it doesn't work in the context of a contra dance set shared with others. (As Danner said, like \"teens and sex...\") I haven't looked at lots of contra syncretist videos, but I'm guessing that many suffer from this flaw. Bad timing, bad positioning, no awareness of the dancers around you, and so forth.
Most dancers want to make their dancing pleasant and interesting to others. I appreciate that you want to teach people to do that, but I would suggest doing it in the context of how contra dancing actually works - that is, with awareness of the fact that you are dancing with your partner, your neighbors, and in a hall full of people, and because it's not a free-style form, that there are constraints - guidelines in the music and the calls, things that work and things that don't. Most dancers who do flourishes are like beginner musicians who play any old note and think it's jazz. You might think that's fun if you're doing it yourself, but if I'm trying to play next to you, I might not enjoy it.
So again, if you're going to teach flourishes, teach them in a context of actually dancing with other dancers in sets. Make sure dancers are aware that sharing space and time with others is an immutable element of contra dancing. Ask neighbor dancers if those flourishes \"work for them too,\" that is, I don't expect a partner flourish to be fun for a neighbor, but it should absolutely not interfere with the neighbor's flow either.", "timestamp": "1372429354"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/618128538332?comment_id=618135125132", "anchor": "fb-618135125132", "service": "fb", "text": "If you do it, do this for setup: get all the participants to stand in a set, dance a few times through a dance, then have everyone freeze. Run three lines of masking tape down the set (one down the middle and one behind each dancer) and then run lines of tape across the set between couples.
Use the grid thus created as the teaching space for all the flourishes you do, and remind people that we created the grid based on their actual spacing after dancing. Underscore that, within your grid square, you have a lot of freedom, but that when your body drifts outside your square, you just elbowed someone in the face.
A lot of the non-flourishers feel that flourishing is frustrating because the flourishers often seem to lose their sense of geography and how they interact with others, and this would be a good way--if you continually asked them to focus on it--to bring that awareness into their practice. You could have them stop mid-flourish and look at the floor grid and see whether they've drifted.", "timestamp": "1372429716"}, {"author": "Bronwyn", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/618128538332?comment_id=618136088202", "anchor": "fb-618136088202", "service": "fb", "text": "I can see both sides of the flourish argument. I don't think flourishes necessarily interfere with the flow or space of the dancers around them. I do think that in the culture of some dances, flourishes are valued for their wow factor rather than for what they contribute to the dance experience, and that motivation leads to unsafe or unsatisfactory flourish behavior.
One thing that I think is really important if teaching flourishes is to also teach to the follows; it is a joint responsibility to make flourishes appropriate and safe. If someone tries to lead me into a twirl or flourish that I think will make us late for a move (too late in a swing), will reduce my connection to others (twirl during a circle), or will be dangerous, I know how to refuse. But if a person is inexperienced, s/he may not know how to decline a twirl or may not feel confident doing so. It might work well in a workshop dance setting to instruct people following the flourishes to refuse them occasionally so that both people learn how that works.", "timestamp": "1372430495"}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/618128538332?comment_id=618138049272", "anchor": "fb-618138049272", "service": "fb", "text": "Hollis: tape might be good, but the dance is more dynamic than that. Don't think that you can safely dip if you are within your square. Every move needs to be spotted before initiating it, aware of what currently is in the space, and what could possibly enter the space. This is part of the unseen safety that I add to my flourishes.
@Andrew: I could do away with twirls if my partners would allow me to choose alternate handholds - My biggest fascination is with connections and flows between the led moves, which inherently involves the set and watching all the dancers. The flourishes are actually not my goal, but a way to set up alternate connections that might flow even better (I'm not always right, I explore the world of possibilities). It ends up being a balance between my own desires, the desires of my partner, and the desires of the set.", "timestamp": "1372431882"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/618128538332?comment_id=618138513342", "anchor": "fb-618138513342", "service": "fb", "text": "Danner: agreed. But I was thinking of the grid as a scaffold that dancers who aren't used to paying attention could use to start noticing it.", "timestamp": "1372432238"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/618128538332?comment_id=618142101152", "anchor": "fb-618142101152", "service": "fb", "text": "One flourishes for one or both of two reasons: 1) to show off 2) because it's fun. For people predominately motivated by the former I am unsure that classes will help. For people who are motivated by the latter I suspect that being safe/in control will long run be more fun, and can be convinced of the same. That said, there is an intoxication of the dance where most of the reasoning functions disappear and you do things that you , yourself would think are dumb. There are some people sense and understanding of dance says that can't be, and for them, they are correct, but for others what dance is, is very different, which is part of the problem.", "timestamp": "1372434825"}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1372434848402", "service": "gp", "text": "This seems somewhat similar to me to English Country Dancing \"style\", and there are occasionally style workshops, where people talk about flowing with the music, and making and holding eye contact, and other stuff that you don't have to do in order to Do The Dance Right And Not Ruin It For Others TM, but which make dancing more fun.\n
\n
\nSo I think it'd be neat to have a workshop, so that people who aren't just picking it up by watching/doing (for whatever reason) can learn more.", "timestamp": 1372434848}, {"author": "John", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/100633726263571579985", "anchor": "gp-1372437499457", "service": "gp", "text": "I agree with part of what Andy said on this. \u00a0People will do \u00a0them so the workshops should have some focus on how the flourishes fit in and affect other dancers. \u00a0Then maybe some flourishers will do \"safe flourishes\".", "timestamp": 1372437499}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/618128538332?comment_id=618148478372", "anchor": "fb-618148478372", "service": "fb", "text": "@Andrew: \"teach them in a context of actually dancing with other dancers in sets. Make sure dancers are aware that sharing space and time with others is an immutable element of contra dancing.\"
Definitely.", "timestamp": "1372438614"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/618128538332?comment_id=618195184772", "anchor": "fb-618195184772", "service": "fb", "text": "Phillip - interesting point about \"intoxication of the dance,\" and quite true. If you're a dancer trying to impress your partners and fellow dancers, I think it's good to learn how to keep your focus when all the distracting things happen. These distracting things can include:
erratic dancing from fellow dancers (or from yourself)
tempo or tune changes
attractive partners who you focus all your attention on
I understand that new dancers are going to get disoriented, but an experienced dancer should learn to keep an even keel even when the waters get a little rough.", "timestamp": "1372467466"}, {"author": "Anna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/618128538332?comment_id=618200658802", "anchor": "fb-618200658802", "service": "fb", "text": "The part about contra that I liked was that it allowed for individual embellishments and was not rigid. To introduce the idea that the dancers should all move the same way and be codified to dance that way and within a small space takes it away from it's casual country feel and makes it more like club style square dancing. I'm with the 'teach them to do it safely' camp.", "timestamp": "1372471451"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/618128538332?comment_id=618234146692", "anchor": "fb-618234146692", "service": "fb", "text": "Anna, I often observe that contra is a very \"plastic\" as in moldable form of dance. One of the reasons the 60s/70s revival didn't just go away is that the dance allows a lot of interpretation and free-styling, which is letting each successive generation make it their own.", "timestamp": "1372513870"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/618128538332?comment_id=618236142692", "anchor": "fb-618236142692", "service": "fb", "text": "Anna, about your idea of contra dancing not being rigid, I think any good dancer agrees that contra dancing and any dancing should not be rigid. The problem with \"anything goes in a contra dance\" is that when you don't work within the constraints of the dance form, your choices can cause the other dancers to lock up, that is, it makes the dance rigid for everyone else, and probably for you too. It's similar to the idea of a bunch of cars driving smoothly and quickly down a highway, then one guy driving \"creatively,\" not paying attention to his neighbors, moving at erratic speeds and in careless directions, interferes with all the other drivers and causes them to waste their energy watching out for him, or swerving or hitting their brakes to avoid him, and even if they avoid him, their hitting the brakes can cause other accidents.
I'm for embellishments, but only if they make the dancing \"not rigid\" for everyone. As with any matter of ecology, I think it's not enough that it's better for you, I'm saying that it should also be not worse for your neighbors.", "timestamp": "1372515201"}, {"author": "Anna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/618128538332?comment_id=618241427102", "anchor": "fb-618241427102", "service": "fb", "text": "Agreed - timing is everything, which is why the idea of teaching \"safe\" embellishments is a sound one. If people stick within the time frame to embellish and if they pay attention to those around them and read what they are able/willing to join in, embellishments add to the enjoyment.", "timestamp": "1372517935"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/618128538332?comment_id=618244246452", "anchor": "fb-618244246452", "service": "fb", "text": "Yes, Anna, yes, I agree. Awareness of both time and space - in a contra dance, as contrasted with couple dances like swing, the choreography has you weaving between other dancers, and the space that is yours is limited, it's moving, and it depends on the paths and choices of the dancers around you. Unfortunately, some of the fun embellishments are often prone to disrupting the flow of your neighbors' dancing - twirling out of a swing is a good example of this problem.", "timestamp": "1372520093"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/618128538332?comment_id=618250214492", "anchor": "fb-618250214492", "service": "fb", "text": "Andrew the problem with twirling out of a swing is that most people swing as long as possible, and then tack on a flourish: They need to decide one or the other. This is more of a planning problem. That kind of problem requires one to grok the idea of contra, in order to have alarm bells go off to turn off either the flourish or the swing. While I have contra danced for a long time, the last three or four years have had a bunch of things click in my head. The alarm beels go off sometimes, and sometimes I realize a little late that I am a little late. This beats the heck out of previously when I was just oblivious. I like to believe the alarms will go off more frequently, and more so, I will have the fore site to anticipate the issue and just plain avoid it. What I can't say is what gets people to have the light go on, and I am sure 1) it varies, and 2) the time to get it to happen varies wildly.", "timestamp": "1372524148"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/618128538332?comment_id=618254261382", "anchor": "fb-618254261382", "service": "fb", "text": "Yes, Phillip, (I think) I agree exactly. It's a planning problem - I prefer to think of it as a planning puzzle. Every time you lead a swing, you need to decide how many turns and when and where to open up, and it's based on how fast you want to swing, what the mechanical dynamics is between you and your partner, what figure comes next, and when. Good experienced dancers have these calculations intuitively programmed in their bones.
It's like when you're driving, you don't want to accelerate up to a red light and smash on the brakes, you don't want to run through the red light, you don't want to stop 20 yards before the red light. In a contra dance, you know when the light is going to turn green - the top of the next phrase. You plan it so that you're grooving out of the swing, or whatever the previous figure was, and you're ready to \"punch it\" at the top of the phrase, to move into the next phrase and figure. Not accelerating, just continuing with confidence. That works until the careless driver in front of you veers backwards into your path, and instead of cruising, you're stuck in stop-and-go traffic.
I like twirling and being twirled as much as the next person. A twirl works fine as a replacement for a courtesy turn (after a chain or a right and left through) because there's time for it, and the orientation is clear - usually, you're facing the other couple. A twirl works here because it has the \"same shape\" as the courtesy turn, the mechanical effect of the bodies in motion is similar.
Twirling at the end of a swing can be a mess because of the timing, and because in many cases, the swing may be followed by a circle left (or slide left in a becket progression), where the twirled woman gets thrown to the right, colliding with the oncoming neighbor gent who is already circling left (because the twirler is both late and heading in the wrong direction on the one-way street). For me, careless twirls are the scariest part of contra dancing.", "timestamp": "1372526808"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/618128538332?comment_id=618260578722", "anchor": "fb-618260578722", "service": "fb", "text": "Andrew, I don't think I have ever actually twirled someone out of a swing, too hard.", "timestamp": "1372530220"}, {"author": "Anna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/618128538332?comment_id=618267609632", "anchor": "fb-618267609632", "service": "fb", "text": "Phillip - kudos for using \"grok\" - one of my favorite words!", "timestamp": "1372536394"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/618128538332?comment_id=618297360012", "anchor": "fb-618297360012", "service": "fb", "text": "Anna, it is more expressive than \"develop a comprehensive understanding of\", it's shorter, and it expresses my inner geek.", "timestamp": "1372556588"}]}