{"items": [{"author": "Sasha", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623983734472", "anchor": "fb-623983734472", "service": "fb", "text": "What about Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma?", "timestamp": "1376308442"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623984078782", "anchor": "fb-623984078782", "service": "fb", "text": "@Sasha: simpler than go by default, but how much more complex do you need to make the game before it gets interesting enough? (It might help if you proposed rules that you thought would lead to interesting gameplay.)", "timestamp": "1376308827"}, {"author": "Sasha", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623987067792", "anchor": "fb-623987067792", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, not sure what you mean? I was under the impression game theorists spent at least large parts of their career writing strategies for it. I think the potential strategy infinitely complicated, since any strategy you generate can be countered.", "timestamp": "1376311733"}, {"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623987621682", "anchor": "fb-623987621682", "service": "fb", "text": "\"Go\" might be a rival to Chess in this regard.", "timestamp": "1376312202"}, {"author": "Sasha", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623988340242", "anchor": "fb-623988340242", "service": "fb", "text": "I would say checkers has a simpler ruleset than Go, and at least was sufficiently complicated to occupy a person for their whole life before the advent of computers.

I think you\u2019re also assuming something about game subtypes in the question. Physical combat is technically a game, people have definitely dedicated their lives to it, and I\u2019ll bet aliens would at least have played it in their past.", "timestamp": "1376312991"}, {"author": "Hassan", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109686970531250960199", "anchor": "gp-1376313666771", "service": "gp", "text": "Building off Sasha's comment, do you include sports in the category of games? I think there are probably very simple sports that people spend their whole life playing. I imagine variations of darts or similar target games developed independently, and have very few rules.", "timestamp": 1376313666}, {"author": "Adam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623990241432", "anchor": "fb-623990241432", "service": "fb", "text": "In terms of simplest possible rule sets. It's reasonably likely that aliens \"play\" the simplest forms for cellular automata.", "timestamp": "1376314583"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1376315260718", "service": "gp", "text": "@Hassan\n\u00a0I was thinking about games that had no physical component, but I'm not sure if that's a reasonable category. \u00a0I think it probably is; we probably have more non-physical games than physical ones.", "timestamp": 1376315260}, {"author": "George", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623991488932", "anchor": "fb-623991488932", "service": "fb", "text": "Connect 6 is pretty good. You can extend tic tac toe family games and get some very interesting stuff.", "timestamp": "1376315282"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623991593722", "anchor": "fb-623991593722", "service": "fb", "text": "@Paul: chess has much more complex rules than go.", "timestamp": "1376315347"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623991858192", "anchor": "fb-623991858192", "service": "fb", "text": "@Sasha: \"iterated prisoners dilemma\" by itself isn't a game any more than \"territory competition on a board\" is a game. They're both interesting things you can build a game around, but to do that you need to specify a lot of free parameters. All the ways I've seen to turn the prisoners dilemma into a full game (ex: diplomacy) need a lot of additional complexity to make it interesting. But if you have a simple way to do that, I'd be curious.", "timestamp": "1376315550"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623992367172", "anchor": "fb-623992367172", "service": "fb", "text": "@Sasha: \"checkers has a simpler ruleset than Go\"

I think the rulesets are actually very similar in complexity. They both specify a board, what constitutes a legal move, and the effects of the move. The determination of a legal move is a little simpler in Go, the effects are simpler in checkers, and the end-point and scoring are simpler in checkers, but you could specify both games in about a paragraph. Checkers is definitely a competitor to Go here, though.", "timestamp": "1376315932"}, {"author": "George", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623992387132", "anchor": "fb-623992387132", "service": "fb", "text": "http://homepages.cwi.nl/~tromp/go.html", "timestamp": "1376315970"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623992456992", "anchor": "fb-623992456992", "service": "fb", "text": "Ultimate Tic Tac Toe might be my best guess for an interesting game aliens might haw invented. As you said, Tic Tac Toe is simple, and it's a very natural extension. Not sure if you could devote your life to it or not.", "timestamp": "1376316022"}, {"author": "Brandon", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623993579742", "anchor": "fb-623993579742", "service": "fb", "text": "Telephone pictionary seems to have developed independently in different friend-clumps.", "timestamp": "1376316551"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623995865162", "anchor": "fb-623995865162", "service": "fb", "text": "What's the simplest set of rules for checkers? I'm thinking something like:

1. Checkers is played on an 4x8 grid of points arranged the long way between two players called Black and White.
2. The players have tokens in their colors, and each space on the grid may hold no more than one token.
3. The game begins with the three rows closest to each player fully populated with their tokens.
4. Tokens may move forward straight or on the diagonal, left when leaving odd rows and right when leaving even rows.
5. A turn consists of moving one token towards the opposing player into an empty space.
6. A token may move through a single space occupied by an opposing token into an empty space. This allows a second move by this token and removes the opposing token from the game.
7. If a token reaches the far side it gains the ability to move in both directions.
9. A player with the option to capture an opposing token must do so.
10. Players alternate turns until one takes the last opposing token, winning the game, or is unable to move, losing the game.

To play a 10x10 game change 4x9 to 5x10 and \"four\" in #3 to \"five\". If you play with flying kings you'd need to add that.

As a paragraph this is 174 words compared to the 179 for the Go rules George linked to, but as I just made them up they probably are overly verbose in some places and underspecified in others.", "timestamp": "1376317987"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623996024842", "anchor": "fb-623996024842", "service": "fb", "text": "My #6 is underspecified. When making a double move like that you need to either go straight and then diagonal or diagonal and then straight. (Which makes me wonder whether you actually get simpler rules from setting it on a standard grid as I did here.)", "timestamp": "1376318086"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623996164562", "anchor": "fb-623996164562", "service": "fb", "text": "Looking at lengths of implementations in code would be safer.", "timestamp": "1376318174"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623996179532", "anchor": "fb-623996179532", "service": "fb", "text": "@Brandon: how do you know it was developed independently? Can you identify someone who invented the game?", "timestamp": "1376318178"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623996259372", "anchor": "fb-623996259372", "service": "fb", "text": "And probably easier than optimizing your English word count.", "timestamp": "1376318196"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623996409072", "anchor": "fb-623996409072", "service": "fb", "text": "@David: the problem with code is that it's vulnerable to the same potential optimizations. The shortest program I could write implementing checkers or Go would be absurdly terse and unreadable. But maybe that's ok?.", "timestamp": "1376318295"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623996997892", "anchor": "fb-623996997892", "service": "fb", "text": "I think it is okay. What makes something unreadable (to humans) is more likely to be human-specific. I'm not saying aliens won't have a distinction between readable/unreadable code, but it's likely to correspond less cleanly to our notions than correct/incorrect.", "timestamp": "1376318722"}, {"author": "Arthur", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623997382122", "anchor": "fb-623997382122", "service": "fb", "text": "You're assuming a lot of things about the parameters of a \"game\" like that it's a well-defined logical construct based on abstract reasoning. I think it's quite likely that there are more things thought of as \"games\" that are loosely defined and based on social skills and shared knowledge -- I think Charades or Twenty Questions or \"the old riddle game\" would be more likely to find in another civilization than Go.", "timestamp": "1376318922"}, {"author": "Brandon", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623998714452", "anchor": "fb-623998714452", "service": "fb", "text": "I cannot.", "timestamp": "1376319693"}, {"author": "Sasha", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=623998934012", "anchor": "fb-623998934012", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff - how complicated it is is a function of your starting assumptions. Physical combat is far more complicated if you think you have to define movement etc, but we've already seen numerous cultures and species develop it independently.", "timestamp": "1376319833"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=624000715442", "anchor": "fb-624000715442", "service": "fb", "text": "@Arthur: \"well-defined logical construct based on abstract reasoning\"

This is a large category for humans, though, so I think it's reasonable to look through it to find the members most likely to be independently developed.", "timestamp": "1376320910"}, {"author": "Arthur", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=624000994882", "anchor": "fb-624000994882", "service": "fb", "text": "Sure, but \"physical combat\" as usually practiced rarely falls into that category either.

It's almost certain that any alien race at all similar to us will indeed have physical combat, and engage in combat as \"play\" sometimes rather than in earnest -- whether they will have something as formalized as our sports of fencing or wrestling or whatever is an open question though.", "timestamp": "1376321077"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=624001209452", "anchor": "fb-624001209452", "service": "fb", "text": "@Sasha: \"how complicated it is is a function of your starting assumptions\"

This is diminished for games that are essentially abstract, and we have a lot of these.", "timestamp": "1376321172"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=624002422022", "anchor": "fb-624002422022", "service": "fb", "text": "It's hard to imagine any form of physical combat or sports as the \"same game\" when played by aliens as by humans, unless their physiology were surprisingly remarkably similar to ours.", "timestamp": "1376321646"}, {"author": "Arthur", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=624003070722", "anchor": "fb-624003070722", "service": "fb", "text": "I think a decent comparison can be made between sports and social games like Charades or knowledge games like the riddle game -- many of our games have a huge metagame component involving factors that go beyond the \"rules\" of the game.

The game theory part of the riddle game is really a game about making strategic guesses about the overlap between the asker's body of knowledge and her opponent's, just like the game theory part of running a marathon involves a body of knowledge about the physical abilities of oneself and one's competitors.", "timestamp": "1376322022"}, {"author": "Sasha", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=624003724412", "anchor": "fb-624003724412", "service": "fb", "text": "If the physical limitations of the participants are part of our definition of what constitutes the game, then no game has ever been played more than once.", "timestamp": "1376322391"}, {"author": "Bryce", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/110073329443149494347", "anchor": "gp-1376324772144", "service": "gp", "text": "I like \n@George\n's suggestion of gomoku. Other games with simple rules that people still play are nim (strongly solved) and hex (ultra-weakly solved).\n
\n
\nAnother class of games that aliens might play are those requiring mixed strategies (the simplest example being matching pennies). Everyone knows the equilibrium in rock-paper-scissors is to mix 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3, but it's hard to implement it. That difficulty keeps the game interesting, albeit not life-consuming.", "timestamp": 1376324772}, {"author": "Robbie", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118222038073834017046", "anchor": "gp-1376325012577", "service": "gp", "text": "Your post reminded me of the quote:\n
\n
\n\"While the Baroque rules of Chess could only have been created by humans, the rules of Go are so elegant, organic, and rigorously logical that if intelligent life forms exist elsewhere in the universe, they almost certainly play Go\"\n
\n-- Edward Lasker", "timestamp": 1376325012}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=624009946942", "anchor": "fb-624009946942", "service": "fb", "text": "@Sasha: soccer is a coherent game despite people varying in ability because that variance isn't that big. When the variance is too large we divide people into groups to limit it (ex: under-10, under-12, under-14 leagues).", "timestamp": "1376325897"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1376326016595", "service": "gp", "text": "@Robbie\n\u00a0I think \"almost certainly\" is too strong, but I do think more likely Go than anything else in that category.", "timestamp": 1376326016}, {"author": "Sasha", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=624011259312", "anchor": "fb-624011259312", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, I agree - I was using that as a reductio against the physical properties of the players being part of the game rules.", "timestamp": "1376326643"}, {"author": "Jeff", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=624025465842", "anchor": "fb-624025465842", "service": "fb", "text": "dots and boxes is probably simpler than go, and is an exceptionally hard game. dunno about \"reasonably devote their whole life to playing\"", "timestamp": "1376334961"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=624045460772", "anchor": "fb-624045460772", "service": "fb", "text": "@Sasha: in a game like soccer physical limitations are loosely part of the rules. If your feet are capable of grabbing onto the ball as you run, you're not playing soccer anymore.", "timestamp": "1376340550"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=624047925832", "anchor": "fb-624047925832", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff Kaufman it also depends on how/where you choose to define your complexity. The last time I was aware of such things there were excellent computer programs for playing checkers and chess, but not Go. Go's complexity is shifted the execution, but you have to develop a profound understanding/feel for the game to play it well. Checkers may have a few more constraints, but I think developing an understanding is more straight forward (but the difficulty in mastering should not be underestimated). Chess has more constraints, but actually is more straight forward than believed. The pieces for instance either move forward, diagonally or laterally or some combination thereof. rooks forward and laterally, bishops diagonally, Knights one move forward one move diagonally (hence their placement between the rook and bishop). The Queen can move an unlimited amount in all directions while the King can move one square in all directions. Pawns are forward and capture on the diagonal, they are odd in that unlike the rest of the pieces the pawns are meant to work as a unit. It should be understand that chess was used to help develop the strategic military mind. As in the real world you have units of different capabilities, with with different speeds, that require coordination. Chess is really more of an early simulation/exercise, than purely a game. Go Is a bit more of a game, since it has less of a real world analog, but it is great for teaching long term planing and subtlety.", "timestamp": "1376342155"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1376342343"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=624048804072", "anchor": "fb-624048804072", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jeff: more on dots and boxes: http://library.msri.org/books/Book29/files/westboxes.pdf", "timestamp": "1376342469"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=624094841812", "anchor": "fb-624094841812", "service": "fb", "text": "To answer the question of complexity properly, I wrote some computer programs: http://www.jefftk.com/p/simplest-interesting-game

(Spoiler: Checkers needed a longer program than Go.)", "timestamp": "1376359418"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/623983460022?comment_id=624101857752", "anchor": "fb-624101857752", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff Kaufman there are still checkers tournaments, so there is still serious competitive play. At times in my life I have been a serious chess player, but I dislike the saw of one person is playing checkers while another is playing chess. Checkers is a hard game, but in the way that Go is (all pieces of equal value), as opposed to chess. I think chess is the harder game,but not by enough to have the comparison that is so popular.", "timestamp": "1376361983"}]}