{"items": [{"author": "Victor", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287021351405500", "anchor": "fb-287021351405500", "service": "fb", "text": "Why would that be ideal?", "timestamp": "1342527071"}, {"author": "Sam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287022708072031", "anchor": "fb-287022708072031", "service": "fb", "text": "Decrease the frequency with which men ask women to dance, likely by increasing the amount that men dance with each other. I think part of the issue is that men want to dance all the time, and only feel comfortable dancing with or asking women to dance, which means they'll tend to ask other people to dance before they have a chance to *be* asked, and since they're *only* asking women to dance...", "timestamp": "1342527350"}, {"author": "Sophia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287023731405262", "anchor": "fb-287023731405262", "service": "fb", "text": "I think a simple posting of dance \"norms\" (including \"anyone can/should ask anyone to dance\") would go a long way to making this happen.", "timestamp": "1342527572"}, {"author": "Sophia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287024631405172", "anchor": "fb-287024631405172", "service": "fb", "text": "Also, it's ideal because it would mean that everyone would have the same amount of control over who they dance with.", "timestamp": "1342527714"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1342531781"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1342531811"}, {"author": "TC", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287053484735620", "anchor": "fb-287053484735620", "service": "fb", "text": "start dancing gender free and throw all of your gender \"rules\" to the wind.", "timestamp": "1342532177"}, {"author": "Becky", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287053874735581", "anchor": "fb-287053874735581", "service": "fb", "text": "I think it's important to keep in mind that at least some of this cultural conditioning originates outside the contra dance community -- that is, people coming from our society at large often enter the contra community with these gendered expectations. So public announcement is necessary (to inform/remind people that the expectations here are or should be different) but probably not sufficient to undo a lifetime of conditioning. As Sam has noted, \"queering\" a contra dance (by encouraging partnering regardless of gender) might have the side effect of helping to change the dance's asking norms.", "timestamp": "1342532247"}, {"author": "Ben", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287057011401934", "anchor": "fb-287057011401934", "service": "fb", "text": "I agree with the folks advocating more role-switching. In my very anecdotal experience, at dances where it's more \"normal\" for men to dance follow (and women to dance lead), women ask men to dance more frequently.", "timestamp": "1342532904"}, {"author": "Liz", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287061658068136", "anchor": "fb-287061658068136", "service": "fb", "text": "Travis is right - I haven't noticed this issue in our little gender role free world. BTW, we tend not to dance in the gendered world - the men tend to be too rough and the women too passive. I can neither afford to have my arm wrenched (by guys proving that they're in charge) nor my back put out by women who expect their partner to hold them upright.", "timestamp": "1342533719"}, {"author": "Cecile", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287071418067160", "anchor": "fb-287071418067160", "service": "fb", "text": "Usually I don't particularly care who I dance with, and someone usually asks me to dance pretty quickly so I don't need to bother asking someone. If I actually have a chance to look around the room and see a guy who doesn't look like he has a partner, I will ask him to dance, but most of the time I'm not left alone long enough.", "timestamp": "1342535707"}, {"author": "Cecile", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287071428067159", "anchor": "fb-287071428067159", "service": "fb", "text": "That said, I do approach my male friends to make sure I get to dance with them, but I feel like that's not really the issue here.", "timestamp": "1342535710"}, {"author": "Cecile", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287071444733824", "anchor": "fb-287071444733824", "service": "fb", "text": "Usually I don't particularly care who I dance with, and someone usually asks me to dance pretty quickly so I don't need to bother asking someone. If I actually have a chance to look around the room and see a guy who doesn't look like he has a partner, I will ask him to dance, but most of the time I'm not left alone long enough.", "timestamp": "1342535712"}, {"author": "Cecile", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287072034733765", "anchor": "fb-287072034733765", "service": "fb", "text": "So maybe men being less aggressive about approaching women would help. They wouldn't have to dance with each other, just give the women 30 seconds to look around and ask somebody instead of pouncing on them immediately.", "timestamp": "1342535854"}, {"author": "Dex", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287078591399776", "anchor": "fb-287078591399776", "service": "fb", "text": "Come dance on the west coast. (Seattle, Bellingham, Vancouver, Portland). Men dance with men often. Men wear skirts. But getting (some) women to ask a man to dance is about the same as asking my father to do something in the kitchen. It is not that he cannot do it, but he has years of conditioning saying \"Do not ever do that\".", "timestamp": "1342537207"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287083048065997", "anchor": "fb-287083048065997", "service": "fb", "text": "@Dex: men wear skirts and dance with each other in Boston too. My impression is that this isn't an east/west thing.", "timestamp": "1342538010"}, {"author": "Laura", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287085251399110", "anchor": "fb-287085251399110", "service": "fb", "text": "I almost always ask for almost every dance. I would say maybe all except 2 in an evening. But I'm impatient :p", "timestamp": "1342538454"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1342538818"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287088028065499", "anchor": "fb-287088028065499", "service": "fb", "text": "There are several factors, several of which have been mentioned. One I haven't seen is that a lot of people -- both men and women -- approach contra dancing (and dancing in general) with some level of expectation of following historical precedents. They don't necessarily know a lot ABOUT those historical precedents, but several memes that have persisted quite strongly are a) that men ask women to dance, b) that women who turn a man down MUST sit out even if a man they would prefer to dance with then asks them (i've also seen this applied with reversed gender roles), c) that two people who aren't romantically involved shouldn't dance together more than (either once or twice -- it varies) in one night, d) that even two people who ARE romantically involved shouldn't dance together more than (usually twice), e) that the evening should end with a waltz, and f) that the waltz should be reserved for someone special and you should sit it out if you don't have someone special there that night.
These memes don't all live in equal proportions across our dance community, but I've seen all of them in the Boston area. a, b, and c are the ones I've noticed most often, and are all based in 19th century dance etiquette (though the rules may go back further in history). Every now and then someone prints excerpts from old dance manuals and brings them to modern dances (NOT me, and not always from the 19th century), and also some of these rules of etiquette are reinforced through period drama, literature, and movies, or even more modern pieces that simply perpetuate them.
I think in order to really kill off these dance rules, it would be necessary to declare a break from the past, as well as to declare the new rules, and teach them to new people, and we would *still* have a lot of influence from expectations engendered elsewhere in society.", "timestamp": "1342539063"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287088868065415", "anchor": "fb-287088868065415", "service": "fb", "text": "@Dex: I'm curious what the male/female ratio at your dances is.", "timestamp": "1342539271"}, {"author": "Melissa", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287089444732024", "anchor": "fb-287089444732024", "service": "fb", "text": "This is fascinating. I usually ask others to dance (men or women), and started doing it long ago because it meant that I'd have a better say in who I got to dance with. Does that make me modern, choosy, normal, initiating, all of the above, or something else entirely? Who knows... :-)", "timestamp": "1342539412"}, {"author": "Andy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287098894731079", "anchor": "fb-287098894731079", "service": "fb", "text": "I was told that if I wanted to dance, I had to ask people. I too find that often I am not alone long enough to choose (this is not a complaint!) but am wisked off. I will dance with everyone and switch gender mid dance if requested to do so. This comes from years of attending dances, being a teacher's child and teacher though. As stated, new people come in constantly with preconceived ideas and they take time to learn new habits. I love the idea of \"etiquette posters\" with helpful pictures and sayings that help others get the idea. \"Dance art\" so to speak. We had these in Folk Dancing years ago.", "timestamp": "1342541461"}, {"author": "Jeff", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287109981396637", "anchor": "fb-287109981396637", "service": "fb", "text": "I do see a problem with women being \"pounced on\" so quickly that they never get to ask the person they really want to dance with. (This happens to men too, but most often to women.) One way to get over that is to ask that person beforehand, so you can say to the pouncer, \"maybe later, but I promised the next to someone else.\" But I also think that throwing away gender roles is not everyone's preferred solution. For shy or inexperienced folks, for example, social dancing can be a way to interact with the opposite sex in a non-threatening way. Encouraging people to ask to dance with whomever they like, regardless of gender, is a good thing. But I don't like the idea of fostering an attitude that it's somehow \"wrong\" to prefer to dance with one or the other gender.", "timestamp": "1342543591"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287115808062721", "anchor": "fb-287115808062721", "service": "fb", "text": "@Andy: \"I love the idea of \"etiquette posters\" with helpful pictures and sayings that help others get the idea\"
BIDA has these: colorful posters giving tips for better dancing. It's hard to tell how much they're doing.", "timestamp": "1342544700"}, {"author": "Dvor\u00e1", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287122031395432", "anchor": "fb-287122031395432", "service": "fb", "text": "Liz - you are my hero for saying what you did about the evils of roughness and passivity, but i think you underestimate the degree to which (at least) the former occurs in the gender-free dane world.", "timestamp": "1342545931"}, {"author": "Ben", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287142178060084", "anchor": "fb-287142178060084", "service": "fb", "text": "I think the question is bigger than who asks whom. In my experience, there is often a brief period of milling about in between dances, in which I make eye contact with someone (almost always a woman), at which point one of us will ask the other to dance. In this case it doesn't seem to matter who actually speaks the request, since the arrangement is largely non- (or pre-) verbal. At other times, when there is a specific person I want to dance with, I will actively seek him or her out (especially if the dance is not explicitly gender-free and the person I want to dance with is a man).
If neither of these scenarios happens, and I still want to dance, I will move toward where people are standing or sitting at the edge of the room, and begin the sometimes awkward process of determining who is waiting to be asked (mostly women), who is looking for someone to ask (mostly men), and who is sitting out (also mostly women, at least at BIDA - not sure why this is).
I guess from my perspective, admittedly that of a man, difficulty arises less from an imbalance of who does the asking, and more from uncertainty about what people are looking for. What gender(s) do they want to dance with? Do they want to dance at all, or are they sitting out? I agree that greater flexibility overall would probably help, but I also want to respect the wishes of people who come to a dance wanting to dance primarily with either men or women.", "timestamp": "1342550146"}, {"author": "Muriel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287262914714677", "anchor": "fb-287262914714677", "service": "fb", "text": "In my world we already live there. Certainly in contra dances, but elsewhere too. I think we are all as equal as we believe we are.", "timestamp": "1342574846"}, {"author": "Adrian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287299204711048", "anchor": "fb-287299204711048", "service": "fb", "text": "@ Jeff: Queering genders at a contra is not about to create some \"reverse homophobia\" for straights. Chill the fuck out. @ Ben: As a queer woman who danced contra in high school, it should be noted that the contra community is still, by default, a straight space even if it's relatively welcoming to queer folk. This is true for most spaces in general. But the wishes of more than just straight people should be recognized in the construction of a positive dance community. Focusing only on straight people here, as many in this thread have done (even the question you posed, Jeff, is focused on heteronormative patterns) is counterproductive. If you find this statement threatening, consider that people focus on straight people 99% of the time, unless they're looking to blame or highlight those queer freaks/pedophiles/radicals/whatever. That's what I have to say on the sexual orientation piece of this.
On the gender piece, I don't got a lot more helpful to say except from what people have already said. Dismantling sexism and rape culture would be a good start for solving this problem. Someone on this thread talked about the expectation that a woman will sit out a dance if she turns somebody down. Men, since they are in the default asking position and because they are not conditioned to be deferentially pleasing to the opposite sex, do not encounter this situation, which is somewhat coercive. What if you want to dance, but you don't want to dance with said dude for whatever reason? Rape culture both plays into this scenario and is produced in a small scale by this standard. In terms of creating a space where women are more forward, obviously larger societal work needs to be done, but the rigidity of expectations around accepting dance partners is a problem within the contra community that could be fixed more immediately. This could have the double effect of making contra a more accessible space for women who are traumatized by rape culture, and of reducing the sexist expectations of who should dance when, with whom, and who should ask.
I stopped contraing mostly because it fizzled out as an interest for me, but I do think that had it been less gendered, straight, and coercive (in the manner of this dance-with-me-or-sit-out expectation), I would have fit and felt comfortable just that much more easily.
I like the solution of making all contras gender-free contras. It's not gonna stop you from asking someone of the opposite sex to dance with you, friends. Your freedom to proceed with straightness (or opposite-sex friendness) will not be crushed. Thanks for listening.", "timestamp": "1342584486"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287417788032523", "anchor": "fb-287417788032523", "service": "fb", "text": "@Marianna: \"Someone on this thread talked about the expectation that a woman will sit out a dance if she turns somebody down. Men, since they are in the default asking position and because they are not conditioned to be deferentially pleasing to the opposite sex, do not encounter this situation, which is somewhat coercive.\"
Men encounter this situation less, but women also ask men to dance and it does happen for men too. [1] I agree that this is an unpleasant situation that happens much more to women, though, and is one reason I would like asking to be closer to gender neutral.
\"I like the solution of making all contras gender-free contras.\"
Contra is moving in this direction. A generation ago at mainstream contras men didn't dance with men pretty much at all, and women danced with women mostly when there weren't enough men. A male-female couple wouldn't dance gender-swapped either. While partnering and role-choosing in non-gender-traditional ways certainly isn't the default now, it's far more common than it used to be, and I think even a little more common than it was when you used to dance at the Scout House. I expect gender to continue to become less relevant to people's decisions about who to dance with and what role to dance. (I'll often ask partners \"do you have a preferred dancing gender?\". Older women tend to think I'm making a joke, while younger ones (and male dancers of all ages, probably because I'm male) are more likely to hear it as a serious question.)
[1] I'm not trying to say men have this worse, or that it's about equal between the genders, just that \"do not encounter this situation\" is too strong.", "timestamp": "1342618888"}, {"author": "Marcus", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/111675838261170541573", "anchor": "gp-1342651977604", "service": "gp", "text": "\"it should be noted that the contra community is still, by default, a straight space even if it's relatively welcoming to queer folk\"\n
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\nI do have some queer non-contra-community acquaintances who wondered about the possibility of a proper gender-free contra because they weren't very interested in coming to a \"normal\" contra. This was an eye-opener for me, making me realize that while it is a start, being LGBT friendly and accepting same-gender dancing may not be sufficient (there is also somewhat less same-gender dancing at Glen Echo than in Boston).\n
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\nI'm not sure if a \"gender-free\" dance will necessarily change the culture sufficiently, though. Less gendered language (lead/follow vs. gents/ladies, for example, though even lead/follow isn't perfect) is an obvious step, but a small one - and still not necessarily easy, since it would involve getting visiting callers to change their style (my Modern Western club would sometimes need to ask visiting callers to remove sexist jokes from their repertoire, but that's easier than removing all gendered language). I know NEFFA has a successful gender-free dance during the weekend, and the JP contra manages it weekly, but will this model translate to all dance communities? Part of the success of the NEFFA dance is due to it being an outlier - as an outlier, people are more willing to dance with same sex partners, and wear armbands to help prevent confusion. I didn't go to the JP dance enough to really know how it works (does it require arm bands?). But at a hetero-dominated dance, would being \"gender-free\" just default back to the standard 98% male lead/female follower role? Also, I know that some new dancers, and some \"traditional\" dancers can find traditional gender roles a useful crutch - in Glen Echo sometimes such dancers are confused when encountering a same-gender or gender-swapped couple in the line - would 100% gender-free dancing make dancing harder for these people? I know in my Modern Western club, we used to ask dancers who were taking the class to pick a gender role and stick with it until after the class ended and they were good enough to be able to handle both roles... even though, unlike some MWSD clubs, we did teach \"all-position\" dancing so that there were only about 3 actually gendered calls (allemande-left your corner, star-thru, and slide-thru being the ones that come to mind).\n
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\nRegarding the \"pouncing\": I agree this is a problem. I think this has been discussed in Jeff's previous posts about the book-ahead culture. It is unfortunately self-propagating: the more pouncing, the more people feel the need to pounce (or book ahead) if they want to dance with popular dancers. Connecting back to gender-free, as a new and somewhat shy dancer, I actually danced same gender 1 out of 3 dances or so because I wasn't pouncing, and didn't like booking ahead. (though I did notice that when going to a strange dance, dancing the \"wrong\" gender role competently seemed to serve as a signal of being a good dancer, making it easier to get good partners later).\n
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\nRegarding the \"rule\" about accepting dances or sitting out: my impression was that this \"rule\" was originally designed to make for a more inclusive dance community, to avoid the problem in some dance communities of a snob culture where if you aren't good, you can't get a partner. Unfortunately, this rule is abused: I have heard too many (mostly female) complaints about being targeted by creepy dancers (or, in some cases, partners who push or twist too much during dancing, and therefore aren't physically safe). I think perhaps it is time to think about a new way to encourage inclusiveness without making people dance with people they don't want to dance with.\n
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\n\u00a0", "timestamp": 1342651977}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1342663460682", "service": "gp", "text": "@Marcus\n\u00a0\"Unfortunately, this rule is abused: I have heard too many (mostly female) complaints about being targeted by creepy dancers (or, in some cases, partners who push or twist too much during dancing, and therefore aren't physically safe).\"\n
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\nI think in those situations it is completely fine to say \"no\" and then dance with someone else.", "timestamp": 1342663460}, {"author": "Adrian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287642621343373", "anchor": "fb-287642621343373", "service": "fb", "text": "Craig. If you read my comment, you'd see that I was not discouraging opposite-sex dancing. (Check the last paragraph, it's a pretty clear summary of that argument.) I was pointing out how folks' advocacy of gender-free contras seemed to instigate a fear in some folks on this thread that opposite-sex dancing would be frowned upon. Really, this is a laughable fear, but ironically one that you hold as well. I play a tiny violin for opposite-sex dancers, who have monopolized dance floors for a long-ass time, and will continue to do so without fear of much repercussion. I, of course, advocate for the freedom of decision in anyone to choose a dance partner. Surprisingly, I do sometimes dance with members of the opposite sex, and this even applies to me directly. As a matter of fact, I am encouraging MORE freedom of decision in terms of with whom one dances, both in terms of the bind that the gender binary places on people (up to and including the coerciveness of rape culture) and in terms of the bind that heterosexism places. This is all about removing the restrictions that are placed on people that explicitly or implicitly deems their choice of dance partner or method of choosing them \"wrong.\"
As for tolerance, I have a lot to say on the topic but little room. I will try to be brief. First, it's a sort of lukewarm word to begin with. Is that the best we can do, tolerate each other? Second, I refuse to tolerate--instead I will deconstruct--views that are blind to privilege and prejudice and/or perpetuate it. In the process of this deconstruction, taking a firm stand is no crime, and anger is understandable. (It's not always the best teaching tool--but then, I am not always a teacher, and my anger does not come and go as I please.) Last I heard, passion and loudness wasn't exactly a hindrance to justice. Those are all big words for this small topic of these issues within one community, but contra has huge potential as a place that might be flexible and open enough to incorporate many of these changes, and it is thus important in that way.
Jeff, I see how this situation happens for men--although I believe you and I agree that the valence is quite different when it happens for women, as it happens in a context of an entire culture of coercing women and their expected capitulation. There is also the question of some of the elderly men who come dancing, it seems, specifically to ask much younger women to dance with them time and again. They can be quite quick in asking someone to dance, and persistent, often making this a definite downside to contraing even for women who are experienced at avoiding an unwanted dance. I understand this happens sometimes with elderly women and younger men, too, but the dynamic is simply different. Oh, one other thing--I think at the time I danced regularly, contra was more like the \"generation ago\" that you described, at least where I was. So I am working from that framework--although it seemed similar when I went dancing once last year.", "timestamp": "1342667636"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287988021308833", "anchor": "fb-287988021308833", "service": "fb", "text": "@Craig, @Marianna: If you don't mind, I would encourage you not to take your conversation to a private forum out of fear of annoying others. Just because you're currently the only ones talking doesn't mean other people aren't interested.", "timestamp": "1342746983"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287990704641898", "anchor": "fb-287990704641898", "service": "fb", "text": "@Craig: \"Fear of repercussion? That doesn't sound like freedom to me.\"
I didn't read \"fear of repercussion\" to mean \"fear of repercussion for choosing to dance only with people of the opposite sex\" so much as \"fear of repercussion for fostering an environment in which opposite sex dancing is much more accepted\".", "timestamp": "1342747512"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=287993857974916", "anchor": "fb-287993857974916", "service": "fb", "text": "@Marianna: \"at the time I danced regularly, contra was more like the 'generation ago' that you described, at least where I was. So I am working from that framework\"
Setting aside how far we are from gender-irrelevant partnering, the main point I was trying to make is that we have moved a lot in that direction over the last few decades and I think we're moving further that way.", "timestamp": "1342748060"}, {"author": "Adrian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=288016554639313", "anchor": "fb-288016554639313", "service": "fb", "text": "Craig, I am fully aware of what \"regard\" means, thanks. And as I said before, I do not tolerate blindness to privilege in a dialogue. And guess what? This isn't my passion-du-jour. These issues are unavoidable to me as a queer woman--this is my life.
I'm not responding to any fears you may seem to hold in your life in general, Craig. I'm responding to the seeming paranoia that has sprung from this thread that apparently gender-free contras will infringe on the ability of people to dance freely with the opposite sex--and this is one that you have expressed in your comments as well. As traditionally gendered contras definitely create an environment where same-sex dancing is less prevalent (at least because much of the rest of the line is opposite sex, but also because opposite-sex dancing is just the norm), and where gender roles are more or less encouraged (see the discussion above), freedom to choose one's partner, to have a variety of neighbors that is less gender-segregated, and to simply dance in a less gendered/rigid/coercive mode is therefore limited. Gender-free contras would help to break down the heteronormative and sexist implications in the way things are currently set up (but I am sure would not complete the job, they aren't a panacea by any means). This means more freedom for everyone--it does not mean a radical queer insurrection. It means reducing the range of straight privilege and male privilege, which can feel restrictive for those who have enjoyed it, but that reduction in the end helps everyone--because everyone will feel safer and freer to dance with the people they'd like to dance with. (An important part of consent, as well, which just makes dancing and life so much better and non-rape-culturey.)
I assume you know the stats, so I will state the obvious without facts: homophobia and sexism are alive and well, and they have a disproportionate negative impact on those directly affected: queer people and women. This means that this is not just about one group's preferences versus another group's preferences: it is about the power that one group holds over the other. And when that power is vastly disproportionate, it has some negative effects, including restrictions of freedom on those oppressed. Gender-free contras are not some sort of proposal to reverse the power balances: it simply suggests, and I am putting this in asterisks for emphasis, not because I am shouting, that *people should have the freedom to choose their dance partners in a setting that does not automatically and institutionally (or otherwise) enforce those power differences.*
I also will note that when you quoted me on fear of repercussion, you quoted me fine but apparently read me wrong: I said, \"WITHOUT fear of repercussion.\" (Jeff, the distinction you made isn't quite relevant to what I am saying--both are true in terms of the privileging of opposite-sex dancing in this society.) I'm not advocating for anyone providing any repercussions for anyone's choice of dance partner or method of procuring one (provided it is consensual). You missed the point. I am saying that, by and large, opposite sex dancers can dance without fear of repercussion in a heteronormative world. This is a fact. And that is a large part of access to the freedom to dance with whomever you'd like, and general societal freedoms as well. I am sure I do not need to remind you of the rate of murders, suicides, and hate crimes towards/within the queer community, or the rate of assault of women in this society. That is what repercussion can look like.
And that is where our disagreement hinges. You seem to see this as a question of choice in an equal world. That is not the reality we live in. Many people have limited choices due to inequalities and threats on their freedom. This limit of options is one facet of oppression. Which is present, yes, even in the contra community. Which, yes, has the potential to change, if more folks will open their eyes, educate themselves, and listen. And gender-free contras wouldn't be a bad start to simply increasing those options.", "timestamp": "1342753451"}, {"author": "Mary", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=289086917865610", "anchor": "fb-289086917865610", "service": "fb", "text": "I agree with Ben; the issue is not so much who asks whom but what people want. I like gender-free dancing for other reasons, but I'm even more concerned about asking a man to dance there because he's less likely to want to dance with a woman. On the other hand it's easier to ask women to dance, which is an improvement for me but still not a balance. I don't think balance is worth pursing, though; my general experience is that men go to gendered dances for the women, while women go for the dancing. So if a man asks a woman to dance, she probably did want to dance. If a woman asks a man to dance, it's not so clear that he wanted to dance with her. I know many men do just want to dance but until they become a much bigger and more visible percentage, I'm not going to behave like strangers have the same desires I do--and run the risk of imposing on them.", "timestamp": "1342993452"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=289130927861209", "anchor": "fb-289130927861209", "service": "fb", "text": "@Mary: \"my general experience is that men go to gendered dances for the women, while women go for the dancing. So if a man asks a woman to dance, she probably did want to dance. If a woman asks a man to dance, it's not so clear that he wanted to dance with her.\"
Is this really that prevalent? Paul's formulation of coming to dance with people who are \"good friends, good dancers, and good looking\" in descending order of importance matches what I've noticed, both for myself and for most people I've talked to.", "timestamp": "1343003712"}, {"author": "Mary", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=289527971154838", "anchor": "fb-289527971154838", "service": "fb", "text": "0. It's prevalent enough for me to take it into account. 1. My good friends don't dance; they're not that coordinated and/or they're not into the whole sweaty farmer atmosphere of contra. 2. Don't you ever wonder about the bad dancers? When I see a guy who still hasn't learned to swing in years of contradancing, I assume he's there for the women, not the dancing. Guys especially are just not that into things they're bad at; if they do them anyway it's probably out of an ulterior motive. [The pause and edit at this point was accidental.] 3. Really, looks rank third? Do you have to make my point for me? I'll keep that in mind the next time I'm dancing with an 80-year-old with bad teeth. [Pretend there's a new paragraph here, instead of the perils of hitting return.] In conclusion: you talk to your good friends and women who are there to dance, so you have a skewed perspective. I talk to men who aren't your friends, and I also dance other styles where you have to be able to dance (and so the men generally are there to dance, too), so the difference with contra is quite striking to me.", "timestamp": "1343100653"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=289637711143864", "anchor": "fb-289637711143864", "service": "fb", "text": "@Mary: response as a top level post: http://www.jefftk.com/news/2012-07-24.html", "timestamp": "1343134337"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=289705214470447", "anchor": "fb-289705214470447", "service": "fb", "text": "@Marianna: I just read something supporting my \"we have moved a lot in that direction over the last few decades and I think we're moving further that way.\":
\"I usually dance at gender-free dances where most of us don't care which role we dance or what gender the partner is. but I've seen a huge change in scout house dances and at NEFFA about people dancing with the same gender or reversing roles; and now it is extremely rare that if I ask a man to dance that he refuses which didn't use to be the case.\"
http://www.jefftk.com/news/2012-07-24.html...", "timestamp": "1343147788"}, {"author": "Adrian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=289846461122989", "anchor": "fb-289846461122989", "service": "fb", "text": "Thanks for the link Jeff. Couldn't find a way to post on that thread but I agree completely with Becky. And it's not about what would be more or less beneficial in terms of who asks who to dance. Also, it shouldn't be such a gender essentialist/straight-focused conversation. There's a lot more out there, but Becky said it best in terms of male-dominated dance interactions. There are reasons a woman would not want to dance with a guy apart from attraction, ie, feeling comfortable/safe. Consent works wonders!", "timestamp": "1343177781"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=289872774453691", "anchor": "fb-289872774453691", "service": "fb", "text": "@Marianna: \"Couldn't find a way to post on that thread\"
If you'd like to, try here: https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157", "timestamp": "1343184864"}, {"author": "Katherine", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/287020628072239?comment_id=529748933799406", "anchor": "fb-529748933799406", "service": "fb", "text": "I am very new to Contra dancing. I went to a dance last night with a friend who is an experienced dancer. She was asked all night long to dance, and I sat on the sidelines for much of the night. Being new, and not knowing the \" rules\" , I am shy to ask anyone to dance. And maybe because I am not a great dancer yet almost no one asked me to dance? I left the dance not feeling so good, although I love to dance. I am thinking of giving it up.", "timestamp": "1388318964"}]}