{"items": [{"author": "Victor", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/400413869971558?comment_id=400416856637926", "anchor": "fb-400416856637926", "service": "fb", "text": "You'll certainly have fun when you decide to learn all the differently pictched saxophones!", "timestamp": "1333133191"}, {"author": "Melissa", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/400413869971558?comment_id=400418066637805", "anchor": "fb-400418066637805", "service": "fb", "text": "I once was talking to a physicist about this. He asked me how it was possible for the trumpet to play the same pitches as, say, a piano. When I told him that the trumpet is actually a transposing instrument a light turned on in his head. Seemed to make sense to him from a physics standpoint. Still doesn't to me :)", "timestamp": "1333133300"}, {"author": "Frank", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/400413869971558?comment_id=400462413300037", "anchor": "fb-400462413300037", "service": "fb", "text": "Also, they make trumpets in C and picollo trumpets are in D", "timestamp": "1333137841"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/400413869971558?comment_id=400463993299879", "anchor": "fb-400463993299879", "service": "fb", "text": "@Frank: if I thought I was learning on a Bb trumpet to eventually play on a C once I thought it was worth it enough to buy one, I'd learn the notes with their Bb-based names. As it is, trumpet is unlikely to become my main instrument so I want to be able to play on widely available cheaper Bb ones.", "timestamp": "1333138007"}, {"author": "Stephen", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/400413869971558?comment_id=400466489966296", "anchor": "fb-400466489966296", "service": "fb", "text": "That chart should also work for tubas in Bb as well. They have the same finger progression. I'm basing this on my baritone horn.", "timestamp": "1333138248"}, {"author": "Bryce", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/110073329443149494347", "anchor": "gp-1333138612097", "service": "gp", "text": "Apart from reading sheet music, learning the transposed note names can also be helpful when switching between brass instruments, because the fingerings are relative to the partials, not the pitches. The invariant among brass instruments is that the note called 'C' in the instrument's key is its fundamental frequency with no valves depressed. On trumpet, this is 'Bb2'; on horn, it's 'F1'.\n
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\nThis causes a couple of additional awkwardnesses with horn: first is that most players use a double horn, where the thumb valve toggles between an 'F' horn and a 'Bb' horn (fundamental = 'Bb1'). Most horn players are taught to think in 'F' and just memorize 4-valve fingerings including the occasional use of the thumb valve. Jeff's last post leads me to believe that this is not the way he would learn the horn. The second problem is that in lots of old music, the horn part is written in the key of the piece, with the assumption that the horn player will use a crook to put his instrument into that key. Modern hornists play such pieces on a double horn and must engage in mental gymnastics to transpose them into 'F'.", "timestamp": 1333138612}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/400413869971558?comment_id=400475669965378", "anchor": "fb-400475669965378", "service": "fb", "text": "@Stephen: That makes sense: the valves change the tubing length by the same amounts.", "timestamp": "1333138907"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1333139644081", "service": "gp", "text": "@Bryce\n I think I would treat this like pennywhistle: learn the fingerings of the instrument I first approached, and then get in the habit of transposing by a fifth in my head when necessary. This is made much easier by not working with written music.\n
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\n(Most people learning whistle first learn 'D'. This lets them play in D, G, Em, Bm, Amix, Dmix. If they're going to play a different whistle, perhaps C or E, they're doing this because they want to play in a key that whistle is better suited for. Which means that playing a differently keyed whistle is usually as simple as picking it up and identifying the appropriate start note for the tune.)\n
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\nI would probably approach the horn by learning to play all the notes in the key of D or G. Which might be a big pain and a bad idea.\n
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\nI wonder why horns are F/Bb instead of E/F or A/Bb?", "timestamp": 1333139644}, {"author": "Bryce", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/110073329443149494347", "anchor": "gp-1333140586016", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff Kaufman\n Horns are F/Bb largely for historical reasons, but there are some advantages to the two 'sides' of the horn having significantly different lengths. The main reason is that the longer tube produces a richer sound in the low range, while the shorter tube is easier to play precisely (since the partials are farther apart) in the high range. The secondary reason is that it fills in the gap that results from the lowest partials being an octave apart. On trumpet it's possible to play E3 (trumpet F#, fingering 1-2-3), and Bb2 (trumpet C, fingering 0), but not any of the notes in between. Offsetting the two keys on the horn allows the Bb side to fill in the gap between B1 and F1.", "timestamp": 1333140586}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1333141232301", "service": "gp", "text": "@Bryce\n Your point about the low range is good, and I hadn't thought of that, but with the high range wouldn't an E/F horn allow you to use fingerings that gave you easier partials to hit? (I'm very new at brass instruments, though, so my impression that some partials are easier than others to hit may be wrong.)", "timestamp": 1333141232}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/400413869971558?comment_id=400515809961364", "anchor": "fb-400515809961364", "service": "fb", "text": "Somehow this is making me want to learn the trombone.", "timestamp": "1333143204"}, {"author": "Bryce", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/110073329443149494347", "anchor": "gp-1333143652351", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff Kaufman\n The main difficulty in playing horn (relative to other brass instruments) is that the normal range is higher in the instrument's harmonic series. This means that the partials are closer together, so lip vibration has to be more precise to ensure hitting the right one. This is related to the fact that the horn has a small mouthpiece, but a long tube; trumpet/trombone/tuba mouthpieces scale in size with the length of the instrument. For a sense of scale (don't take these numbers as gospel: I got them from the internet, but they're close):\n
\n
\napproximate mouthpiece diameter:\n
\ntrumpet: 16mm\n
\nhorn: 18mm\n
\ntrombone: 25mm\n
\ntuba: 32mm\n
\n
\napproximate instrument length:\n
\ntrumpet: 4.5ft\n
\ntrombone: 9ft\n
\nhorn: 12ft\n
\ntuba: 18ft\n
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\nRelative to the F horn, Bb horn is a couple feet shorter, and therefore a fourth higher, so for any given pitch, the nearest partial is farther away. Some horn players go further, using a tripple horn, where a second thumb-valve adds a 'high-F' side to the horn, where the tube is only 6 feet long. I haven't played a tripple horn for more than 5 minutes, but in high school marching band, I played melophone (6-foot tube), which feels much more like a trumpet.", "timestamp": 1333143652}, {"author": "Cecile", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/400413869971558?comment_id=400591076620504", "anchor": "fb-400591076620504", "service": "fb", "text": "I would go crazy if I had to think of pitches in other-than-concert names.", "timestamp": "1333153183"}, {"author": "Christopher", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/400413869971558?comment_id=400595516620060", "anchor": "fb-400595516620060", "service": "fb", "text": "I would like to point out (partially in addition to some of the g+ posts) that unlike the treble clef instruments, the low brass (tuba, baritone, trombone)'s fundamentals are Bob just like trumpet, but people learn hose instruments in concert pitch. Also, the baritone is concert pitch when read in bass cleff, but transposed when in treble cleff (for the trumpet players that switched over)", "timestamp": "1333153912"}, {"author": "Mark", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/105303832002231091966", "anchor": "gp-1333166003778", "service": "gp", "text": "Trombones are typically Bb-fundamental but notated in concert pitch. Also, the mouthpieces are huge! I tried playing valve trombone one day in the high school band room; I think there was a crowd of people outside the practice room laughing (or so I was told).", "timestamp": 1333166003}, {"author": "Mark", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/400413869971558?comment_id=400685346611077", "anchor": "fb-400685346611077", "service": "fb", "text": "I tend not to do the transpositions by scale degree (i.e. 1-2 is mi), but sometimes I'll do it that way for a prolonged arpeggiated passage (or I'll just pencil in the key on the music). Frank - F trumpets are not uncommon, but substantially less common than Bb and C. A lot of orchestral trumpet players like using C horns, but I don't mind the transposing, so I just have a Bb (also, I don't play enough to merit having a second horn). The biggest problem with transposing to F is all the ledger lines for the really low stuff. Transposing from Bb to E is just weird.", "timestamp": "1333166827"}, {"author": "Darren", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/400413869971558?comment_id=401047359908209", "anchor": "fb-401047359908209", "service": "fb", "text": "Venturing into folk music, as someone who plays pennywhistle, I do find that while it's possible to play in any key with a given whistle, it can make fingering and articulation very difficult, and you sacrifice a lot in sound quality. So while I would like to be able to play a set of tunes in Gm, C, and Em without switching instruments, it's just not worth it because pennywhistles are relatively cheap.
However, I have a friend who wants to play traditional tunes on a Bb clarinet, but because she was taught that the instrument\u2019s fundamental was C, she can\u2019t read sheet music correctly. So I wonder, would it be easier for her to simply transpose the dots, or actually learn new keys on her instrument, or just buy a different instrument?", "timestamp": "1333220737"}]}