{"items": [{"author": "Kristen", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800333029072", "anchor": "fb-800333029072", "service": "fb", "text": "We need this. (This being illustrations of how to deal with incidents in the moment)", "timestamp": "1468902008"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800333029072&reply_comment_id=800362460092", "anchor": "fb-800333029072_800362460092", "service": "fb", "text": "→ A caution: these descriptions of how conflicts could be resolved are mostly not based on my experience as a dance organizer, but instead on other people's descriptions of situations at other dances.", "timestamp": "1468925120"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800348088892", "anchor": "fb-800348088892", "service": "fb", "text": "It is useful for dance organizers to understand interactions and Back stories that happen outside of the dance. But organizers should probably confine themselves to actions at the dance only, both the dancers actions and the organisers actions. Enforcing dance rules is different from mediating conflicts that arise outside the dance.", "timestamp": "1468912010"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800348088892&reply_comment_id=800362704602", "anchor": "fb-800348088892_800362704602", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Taking an extreme example, how do you think organizers should handle a case where a group of five long time dancers they know well and trust come forward to describe a pattern where a specific dancer had over several years invited each of them out on dates, drugged them, and raped them?", "timestamp": "1468925349"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800348088892&reply_comment_id=800364356292", "anchor": "fb-800348088892_800364356292", "service": "fb", "text": "→ PM", "timestamp": "1468927064"}, {"author": "Scott", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800348088892&reply_comment_id=800364441122", "anchor": "fb-800348088892_800364441122", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Not sure, but it should definitely involve social sanctions and not reporting to the police", "timestamp": "1468927091"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800348088892&reply_comment_id=800365314372", "anchor": "fb-800348088892_800365314372", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Scott: it sounds to me (from your past comments) like you're being sarcastic?
I do think people should generally report rapes to the police, but as organizers that's not within our control. People do often have reasons for not being willing to do that, and it's their decision.
One difference is that the standard of evidence for banning someone from a dance or community should be lower than the criminal standard. Still high enough that abusive people can't make things up and get other people kicked out, but it needs to be a balance.", "timestamp": "1468927986"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800348088892&reply_comment_id=800368008972", "anchor": "fb-800348088892_800368008972", "service": "fb", "text": "→ (Scott: this is also the kind of discussion where I'm worried you'll be vicious and rude to my friends who care about this. I know quite a few people who have had to leave dance communities because of harassment and abuse, and I know a smaller few people who have had to leave because others used the dispute resolution system to harass and abuse them. I care about us getting this right, and I want to have a conversation where people don't feel dismissed or personally attacked.)", "timestamp": "1468928316"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800348088892&reply_comment_id=800368403182", "anchor": "fb-800348088892_800368403182", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The useful result of this discussion is to provide organizers with a set of criteria for graduated response to offensive behaviors. When should organizers intervene? Three areas of concern: At the organizer's dance, at other similar dances, and at venues outside the dance community.
What are the degrees of offense requiring organizer's action, and what are the standards of evidence for offenses not witnessed by the organizer? And if action is required, what are those actions?
This discussion has many opportunities for heat rather than light. Let's try really hard to develop organizer policy here.", "timestamp": "1468928657"}, {"author": "Scott", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800348088892&reply_comment_id=800370394192", "anchor": "fb-800348088892_800370394192", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'm being morose, not sarcastic, but you're right that this isn't the place for either. My apologies.", "timestamp": "1468930291"}, {"author": "Becca", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800348088892&reply_comment_id=800376097762", "anchor": "fb-800348088892_800376097762", "service": "fb", "text": "→ You should never report someone else's rape to the police without their consent.", "timestamp": "1468933507"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800348088892&reply_comment_id=800382400132", "anchor": "fb-800348088892_800382400132", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think it might be difficult for dance boards to act unless something happened at the dance itself. Like let's say that nothing ever happened at a dance, but someone dated someone else who was abusive at home and now that they are no longer together they fear abuse at the dance itself. I think this is something that is currently evolving. At this time I think common belief is that if you didn't do anything at the dance, you are welcome. Still in the interest of dance safety, I think that this might develop into a policy where some of these things are addressed.", "timestamp": "1468937283"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800348088892&reply_comment_id=800382539852", "anchor": "fb-800348088892_800382539852", "service": "fb", "text": "→ BTW - you are correct in your concern about using a dispute system to actually harass others. I have heard of at least one person ostracized by communities not for what that person did but because of abusive people within the community holding power in that community.", "timestamp": "1468937356"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800348088892&reply_comment_id=800390828242", "anchor": "fb-800348088892_800390828242", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Re: Police:
There is a 6% conviction rate for rape.
2/3 of sexual assaults go unreported.
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system", "timestamp": "1468941465"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800348088892&reply_comment_id=800394825232", "anchor": "fb-800348088892_800394825232", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Perry: \"At this time I think common belief is that if you didn't do anything at the dance, you are welcome.\"
Depending on the situation, I don't think this is right. This is why I gave my \"extreme example\" to Mac above. I think most dancers would agree that those out-of-dance actions do matter.", "timestamp": "1468942937"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800348088892&reply_comment_id=800400309242", "anchor": "fb-800348088892_800400309242", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I would agree - but I have had discussions with people who insist that they can only take action based on what happened at the dance.", "timestamp": "1468945656"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800348088892&reply_comment_id=800406287262", "anchor": "fb-800348088892_800406287262", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Perry, I've definitely heard the people who seem to forget that dance organizers are private groups. Or they seem to think \"freedom of speech\" means that a private group can't take action based on something someone legally says, but is repugnant.", "timestamp": "1468948403"}, {"author": "Ezra", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800361516982", "anchor": "fb-800361516982", "service": "fb", "text": "This is great Jeff. I worry though, that you're underestimating the political will it takes to ban someone from a dance. In my experience, it usually takes many incidents and much debate within a committee before someone gets banned, and even then it's very rare. What you're suggesting here is a real shift from it being very hard and rare to ban someone to being easy and common. I like your imaginary world better than the existing one, but I'm worried that the path there would be hard!", "timestamp": "1468924159"}, {"author": "Ryan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800361516982&reply_comment_id=800363333342", "anchor": "fb-800361516982_800363333342", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I share a similar concern. Especially in the less clear-cut scenarios (e.g., the \"my abusive ex is at a dance and I don't feel safe\" one as opposed to the \"this person is groping me in line\" one) and especially-especially if the alleged offender is someone who might otherwise be very popular or possibly even on the board (or the safety committee!) for a particular dance series. In practice, I find that things get really murky when it comes down to one person's word against another (which many of the less blatant situations do), even when they really shouldn't -- which is part of why these things get under-reported and people decide it's just easier to stop coming than to convince the organizers that someone else needs to be banned/modify their attendance pattern. I think that the inclusion of *examples* with *guidance* on how to handle those examples is a very good idea, though.", "timestamp": "1468926103"}, {"author": "\u05e0\u05d7", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800361516982&reply_comment_id=800368463062", "anchor": "fb-800361516982_800368463062", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Creative Interventions is an organization dedicated to preventing interpersonal violence. Their EXTENSIVE toolkit is available in pre-release form on their website and is a phenomenally thorough guide for community interventions in situations where someone is (intentionally or not) harming someone else.
http://www.creative-interventions.org/
My anecdotal experience suggests that most everyone who's having interpersonal conflict would prefer help in negotiating a schedule such that they avoid their abuser rather than banning them outright.
Most reporters of problems are extremely fearful of community backlash, since in the absence of a formalized policy, it feels likely that concerns will be dismissed as \"not worth dealing with\" and the reporter will be gossiped about as being \"dramatic\" or \"oversensitive.\" There is at least one case of this happening in the Boston contra dance community in the past year.
We currently have an underreporting problem, where it's easier for attendees to just stop attending events rather that fight the (miserable) battle of trying to be heard and believed about a problem.
The \"threat\" of banning is important because it unambiguously makes the statement that the event cares about safety and is willing to make hard decisions on behalf of attendees. I applaud Jeff for not being afraid to include the option of banning in the policy.", "timestamp": "1468928743"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800361516982&reply_comment_id=800390853192", "anchor": "fb-800361516982_800390853192", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Banning is just one tool an organizer has at their disposal.", "timestamp": "1468941501"}, {"author": "Becca", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800376936082", "anchor": "fb-800376936082", "service": "fb", "text": "This is a big job that is worth doing right. Let's talk about your example above. A known rapist who is brought to your attention needs to be banned and this isn't worth discussing further and becoming rape apologists. What then? Do you involve other people? The police? If the answer is yes you can be sure that a lot of rapists will remain unknown. Most people don't rape AT DANCES, so while a general policy of \"enforcing your own dance's rules at your own dance\" makes sense this is one place where you can't ONLY do that and have your safety goals be taken seriously. If I had a bad experience at a dance with a safety team and I reported it and things went badly I would probably never go back to that dance.", "timestamp": "1468934193"}, {"author": "Avalon", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800376936082&reply_comment_id=800380234472", "anchor": "fb-800376936082_800380234472", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I agree that the action taken in those cases should be more immediate and more serious, but I don't think it should involve law enforcement unless the survivor wants to involve it. Pursuing legal action is often very traumatic for survivors because they have to relive their experiences over and over again for the courts and legal system. It can also be very financially costly, and if a survivor is fleeing an abusive relationship involving control of their finances or income, they may not have the means to pursue it even if they want to.
If someone is banned from an event for something as serious as this, I think that organizers should alert the organizers of events in the surrounding area that X person has been banned for (whatever they did.)", "timestamp": "1468936388"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800376936082&reply_comment_id=800391147602", "anchor": "fb-800376936082_800391147602", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think a zero tolerance policy towards offenders of sexual violence is appropriate.
Likewise, a zero tolerance policy for falsely reporting someone is also appropriate - despite this being rare.", "timestamp": "1468941657"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800376936082&reply_comment_id=800393497892", "anchor": "fb-800376936082_800393497892", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"Let's talk about your example above\"
It's not clear to me which example you're referring to? I gave five examples in the post, and then more were given in the comments. Could you quote some of what you're responding to?", "timestamp": "1468942738"}, {"author": "Becca", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800376936082&reply_comment_id=800437300112", "anchor": "fb-800376936082_800437300112", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman \"Taking an extreme example, how do you think organizers should handle a case where a group of five long time dancers they know well and trust come forward to describe a pattern where a specific dancer had over several years invited each of them out on dates, drugged them, and raped them?\"", "timestamp": "1468962281"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732", "anchor": "fb-800390583732", "service": "fb", "text": "Glad to read this.
Recommended amendment:
The two about flourishes neglect to mention a neighbor, and really has no need to be role specific.
\"Someone injures you while insisting on a flourish you don't want.\"", "timestamp": "1468941268"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732&reply_comment_id=800390933032", "anchor": "fb-800390583732_800390933032", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Also, use of \"lead\" and \"follow\" as role terms may confuse many people.", "timestamp": "1468941577"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732&reply_comment_id=800396257362", "anchor": "fb-800390583732_800396257362", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Fixed, thanks!
(You were right; the roles were irrelevant.)", "timestamp": "1468943238"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732&reply_comment_id=800397509852", "anchor": "fb-800390583732_800397509852", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Cool. Thanks for updating.
I acknowledge it gets trickier with neighbors, but I want to give a real example (identifying info omitted):
Dancer X is aggressive about his spinning, both with swing-spin-outs and allemandes (leans back, then insists on pushing off into a self-twirl). This person injured others, even if it wasn't their partners who got hurt. Eventually, the person was spoken to for that pattern of behavior. That pattern would not have been able to be identified unless individuals felt comfortable speaking up.
Hence, having the dance safety folks as you describe facilitates determining the difference between isolated, inadvertently injury versus a pattern of behavior.
And, I happily add, if the pattern can be addressed earlier, the dancer has the opportunity to be more conscientious about their dancing before a major injury occurs.", "timestamp": "1468944103"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732&reply_comment_id=800400438982", "anchor": "fb-800390583732_800400438982", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think that anything that talks about flourishing with consent and such needs to mention neighbors, and I feel it's even MORE important. With a partner you can discuss things before the dance begins, but you can't do that with all your neighbors.", "timestamp": "1468945782"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732&reply_comment_id=800401526802", "anchor": "fb-800390583732_800401526802", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Reworded some more.", "timestamp": "1468946645"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732&reply_comment_id=800415204392", "anchor": "fb-800390583732_800415204392", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Nick, I personally like the idea of safe flourishing classes.
As for the specifics of an allemande, I find there's a few variations that are all valid, but the basics that are needed:
- straight wrist
- palm to palm contact
- weight provided
Like all moves, how much weight is needed varies from person to person, move to move, so there's no rule other than to pay attention.", "timestamp": "1468952760"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732&reply_comment_id=800415533732", "anchor": "fb-800390583732_800415533732", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I should note that I cringe on the notion that knowing how to flourish makes you an \"improved\" dancer. This gives the impression that in order to be a \"better\" dancer you have to learn how to flourish and do it well. And gives the impression that choose not to flourish or who don't do them well enough as lesser desirable dancers.", "timestamp": "1468952996"}, {"author": "Gawain", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732&reply_comment_id=800415788222", "anchor": "fb-800390583732_800415788222", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Perry I would say unequivocally that *knowing* how to do a lot of moves safely makes you a better dancer, but doing them constantly / without regard for the people around you does not.", "timestamp": "1468953160"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732&reply_comment_id=800416960872", "anchor": "fb-800390583732_800416960872", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Knowing how to do the choreographed figures makes you a better dancer. Knowing how to do flourishes not necessarily. But it certainly is the perception that twirly people are \"better\" partners.", "timestamp": "1468953348"}, {"author": "Gawain", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732&reply_comment_id=800417120552", "anchor": "fb-800390583732_800417120552", "service": "fb", "text": "→ ehh... I sorta disagree. Having a wide range of skills under your belt widens your perspective on what is actually going on with respect to mechanics, so I still think it makes you a better dancer. (This is coming from a person who does a lot of different styles of dancing, outside of contra). But, as you said, totally not necessary.", "timestamp": "1468953491"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732&reply_comment_id=800417639512", "anchor": "fb-800390583732_800417639512", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I would say that it makes you a dancer that happens to have more skills than others, I would say that. Knowing the flourishes and how/when to execute them safely and appropriately, with respect to timing, yes, those are good skills. But I maintain that the ability and desire to flourish doesn't make one a better dancer. I have seen lots of dancers who are great dippers/twirlers/etc but are horrible at giving weight and timing when it comes to the actual figures.", "timestamp": "1468953855"}, {"author": "Gawain", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732&reply_comment_id=800417859072", "anchor": "fb-800390583732_800417859072", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Okay, well of course knowing how to do twirls doesn't automatically make you a good dancer. I'm talking about people who contra dance at the same base level, but may or may not have experience with other forms of dance.", "timestamp": "1468953975"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732&reply_comment_id=800418043702", "anchor": "fb-800390583732_800418043702", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I just don't want people to start believing that you're not a good dancer unless you flourish. That leads to rejection of partners for this reason. And it also leads people to believe that they aren't good enough dancers.", "timestamp": "1468954125"}, {"author": "Gawain", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732&reply_comment_id=800418447892", "anchor": "fb-800390583732_800418447892", "service": "fb", "text": "→ You can be a good contra dancer without any of that, and everyone needs to be comfortable with their own style. It is up to each individual person how they want to develop their style and what moves to pull out. It is also up to other dancers to discern what kind of partners they want to dance with. A lot of people like to dance with \"twirly\" partners because it's fun. I don't think it's just a perception that they're better, but rather that lots of people's collective style has evolved over time.", "timestamp": "1468954400"}, {"author": "Gawain", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732&reply_comment_id=800420219342", "anchor": "fb-800390583732_800420219342", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sorry to hijack your comment thread Ron", "timestamp": "1468955138"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732&reply_comment_id=800420274232", "anchor": "fb-800390583732_800420274232", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I am equal to blame for that (and probably more so).", "timestamp": "1468955178"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732&reply_comment_id=800420613552", "anchor": "fb-800390583732_800420613552", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Nah, that's what sub-thread are for. :)", "timestamp": "1468955361"}, {"author": "Gawain", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732&reply_comment_id=800422494782", "anchor": "fb-800390583732_800422494782", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Nick Alunni I distinctly remember being a new contra dancer, seeing people swing with various different holds and going \"wow I wanna learn that\" so I think you're right. Perhaps I was more thoughtful than a typical newb because my next move was to ask some more experienced dancers to show me, rather than just trying to do it.", "timestamp": "1468956218"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732&reply_comment_id=800423617532", "anchor": "fb-800390583732_800423617532", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I know that when I was a new dancer, I did not do any twirling until I was shown how to do it by experienced dancers. I don't see anything wrong with that - provided that these experienced dancers don't force it on people. This is why one of the things I focus on in my beginner's lesson is defensive dancing - how to decline a twirl if you find it is being forced upon you. I wish I didn't have to do that, but given today's dance environment, I do.", "timestamp": "1468956387"}, {"author": "Gawain", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732&reply_comment_id=800424116532", "anchor": "fb-800390583732_800424116532", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Also, there's an air of cliquishness that I think is more perceived than real, which makes new dancers want to learn flourishes but afraid to ask for instruction. People come in thinking that the fancy moves are for the \"cool\" dancers, and that's why they aren't taught, while in reality the reason they're not taught is because they're optional.", "timestamp": "1468956472"}, {"author": "Gawain", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732&reply_comment_id=800427115522", "anchor": "fb-800390583732_800427115522", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Perhaps Cool-Hip Dancer can weigh in on this.", "timestamp": "1468957627"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800390583732&reply_comment_id=800429780182", "anchor": "fb-800390583732_800429780182", "service": "fb", "text": "→ And Perpetual Beginner", "timestamp": "1468959241"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/800318453282?comment_id=800407345142", "anchor": "fb-800407345142", "service": "fb", "text": "Also, didn't specifically write this earlier, but it bears saying:
By having this policy statement out there publicly, it has added benefits:
- transparency builds trust
- setting expectations
- setting an example for other organizations
(On that last point, BIDA has been a good role model in this sense for years.)", "timestamp": "1468948663"}]}