{"items": [{"author": "Christopher", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628455488042", "anchor": "fb-628455488042", "service": "fb", "text": "Seems confusing to me. I think most such concerns are silly; how much do you care how much others care about lexical choices?", "timestamp": "1379423528"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628455762492", "anchor": "fb-628455762492", "service": "fb", "text": "@Christopher: I think I can present it in a way that won't be confusing: \"Each couple is standing with one person on the left and one person on the right. The person on the left is 'Port' and the person on the right is 'Starboard'.\"
\"how much do you care how much others care about lexical choices\"
Neither lady/gent nor lead/follow bother me, but I want to foster a dance environment where everyone is comfortable, and where all genders do similar amounts of leading.", "timestamp": "1379423798"}, {"author": "Victor", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628458247512", "anchor": "fb-628458247512", "service": "fb", "text": "That has the advantage of a 2 syllable vs a 1 syllable word. I think \"port\" replaced 'larboard' for this reason.", "timestamp": "1379425880"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628458472062", "anchor": "fb-628458472062", "service": "fb", "text": "Sorry Jeff, I'm offended by nautical terminology. Try again.", "timestamp": "1379426018"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628460383232", "anchor": "fb-628460383232", "service": "fb", "text": "This assumes that people know which is port and which is starboard. Also assumes that there will not be any people who get upset moving away from traditional terms. And yet I think it is worth a try to see what kind of feedback you get.", "timestamp": "1379427468"}, {"author": "Camrin", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628460438122", "anchor": "fb-628460438122", "service": "fb", "text": "I went sailing this weekend and the terms confuse me. I don't sail enough for those to be useful terms.", "timestamp": "1379427528"}, {"author": "Tom", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628460792412", "anchor": "fb-628460792412", "service": "fb", "text": "I prefer \"windward\" and \"leeward\"", "timestamp": "1379427791"}, {"author": "Jeannine", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628461011972", "anchor": "fb-628461011972", "service": "fb", "text": "I could never remember those in gym class.", "timestamp": "1379427932"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628461980032", "anchor": "fb-628461980032", "service": "fb", "text": "As a sailor, I can assure you that using unfamiliar terms in this rapid fire environment will completely screw up a lot of people. \"Ladies, gents\", \"Bares, bands\", \"Leads, follows\" all are specific references to immediate physical realities that people can usually refer to in the instant moment. Yeah, same gender couples are an issue -- in fact THE issue that prompts all this inquiry. Other than \"bares, bands\", I've yet to see anything that works as clearly and cleanly as \"ladies, gents\". But in truth, I don't go to many gender free dances.
Ever notice the ubiquity of \"guys\" to address a mixed gender group? Even an all-women group -- and within the group itself?", "timestamp": "1379428537"}, {"author": "Pamela", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628462364262", "anchor": "fb-628462364262", "service": "fb", "text": "I sail & still get them confused. Same as left & right, at times. Rolls are leader/follower, but I prefer the standard men/women and I dance both parts. I am not offended by being referred to either gender.", "timestamp": "1379428619"}, {"author": "Alex", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628464290402", "anchor": "fb-628464290402", "service": "fb", "text": "I think another important criterion for role names in contra is whether they're quickly understandable by the dancers. My perspective is that Gent/Lady is problematic for the reasons you articulate, Lead/Follow is problematic for the reasons you articulate (also, at the Free Raisins dance at Hampshire College last week, we saw that \"Lead\" sounds too much like \"Lady\"), and nothing else has wide enough acceptance to be useable. I understand critiques of this perspective that it's too complacent to a problematic system, but I would argue that trying to instigate a new vocabulary is as futile as trying to force a change in natural language.
The solution I prefer is to acknowledge that the current options are problematic for these reasons, and use one of them consistently and conscientiously. I prefer Gent/Lady, because it's what I learned with, and I think it's okay because I distinguish the role names from the gender identities they mean traditionally.
What I cannot tolerate is Man/Woman for role names, because that is so indistinguishable from colloquial names for gender roles that when those role names are used, it feels like the dance roles have to be the same as perceived gender roles. THAT is not okay.
I think Gent/Lady mostly avoids this problem because people don't really use those words to refer to gender roles in our contemporary context. Their use for that purpose is archaic, so it's easier to assign them primarily to the dance role definition.", "timestamp": "1379429704"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628464604772", "anchor": "fb-628464604772", "service": "fb", "text": "Alex, bravo!", "timestamp": "1379429814"}, {"author": "Peter", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628465343292", "anchor": "fb-628465343292", "service": "fb", "text": "In MWSD, at level A1 and higher when the caller wants to refer to each of the people in a couple, which could be any of the four combinations of people dancing the two gender roles, \"beau\" (pronounced bow) refers to the person on the left and \"belle\" (pronounced bell) refers to the person on the right. Unfortunately, these terms aren't as phonetically distinct as would be ideal.", "timestamp": "1379430228"}, {"author": "Martin", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628465762452", "anchor": "fb-628465762452", "service": "fb", "text": "I like the French: \"A droite! A gauche!\"", "timestamp": "1379430483"}, {"author": "Marcus", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628465977022", "anchor": "fb-628465977022", "service": "fb", "text": "\"starboard\" also has a minor issue in that it includes the word \"star\", which has a dance meaning.", "timestamp": "1379430624"}, {"author": "Dave", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628467883202", "anchor": "fb-628467883202", "service": "fb", "text": "Not only are these confusing and abstract terms, they take away all of the historical/traditional feel of the dance. One of the great pleasures of contra for me is to think about how this tradition goes back so far. Artificially inserting words from sailing shatters that perception.", "timestamp": "1379431983"}, {"author": "Ian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628468951062", "anchor": "fb-628468951062", "service": "fb", "text": "Something to consider: when I was taught to use port and starboard rowing crew in high school, it was with the understanding that they referred to the left and right of where the boat was pointing, so we didn't have to worry which way the speaker herself was facing. Maybe lots of sailors refer to their personal ports and starboards, but for me, the terms would naturally translate in a contra setting to the left and right sides of the set when facing up the hall (i.e. the set is the boat, with the band at the bow). Obviously I would get used to it in time, but it seems initially counterintuitive.", "timestamp": "1379432728"}, {"author": "Kitty", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628473701542", "anchor": "fb-628473701542", "service": "fb", "text": "Ok here is what I think this all comes down too: we're trying to find a way to distinguish two differing roles in a dance WITHOUT trying to label them. There's an inherent problem with that goal. Simply being, you CAN'T have two roles without making some sort of distinction. Thus those roles need labels. I can understand people not wanting to be labeled since labeling has historically been a source of prejudice and discomfort, but there really isn't a way to escape that unless you fundamentally change how contra dancing works i.e. make it a role-less dance. No matter what words/gestures/animal sounds/fruits etc you decide to use, someone somewhere will feel \"defined\" by it.
I personally feel that lead/follow is our best bet when trying to take out the gendered nature of the gents/ladies label. While I know some folks feel even that is inaccurate, since there are no strong leads and most moves don't require a \"lead\" as it were, I still feel like it is the most easily understandable label as it's used in all kinds of dancing and doesn't impart any other meanings that can confuse dancers (like directions, produce, sailing, etc).
One partial solution is to examine how we (dancers, callers, organizers) present the fact that there are two roles in the dance. If for instance a caller can present the lead/follow paradigm in a way that implies that you can switch roles whenever you and your partner decide you'd like too, and that leaders don't have to be men, or that there are no strong \"leads\" per say but invitations, I think this could go a long way to making people feel less \"labeled\" or \"defined\" by said label. I taught lots of ballroom dance in college and once I explained that there is a lead and a follow and that it isn't necessarily a man/woman combo AND that people could switch (and I even encouraged people to learn both parts) my students felt pretty comfortable in their roles. Now I DO realize that ballroom dance has a much stronger lead/follow feel to it, but I still think the example applies.", "timestamp": "1379436298"}, {"author": "Rob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628477444042", "anchor": "fb-628477444042", "service": "fb", "text": "The gender-free contra in JP uses \"bands\" and \"bare-arms\" to distinguish. The \"bands\" wear a ribbon around their arm. Works well.", "timestamp": "1379438860"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628483626652", "anchor": "fb-628483626652", "service": "fb", "text": "@Robert: The main downside of bands/bare-arms is that it requires physical labels. People being free to switch between the roles is important, and ribbons make that tricky.", "timestamp": "1379442981"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628485527842", "anchor": "fb-628485527842", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, yes, the \"current role names suggest men should dance one way and women the other\", because that is, in fact, how most dancers do it, always have done it, and want to keep doing it. And if you're a beginner, you probably want to start out that way. Later on when you understand how everything really works, you of course can transgress those norms; the contra community (at least in the northeast) is very supportive of that. But the norms are still there, they are useful, and pretending they don't exist or trying to socially engineer them away doesn't seem very wise to me.
There's a deeper thing here, Jeff. You want to change terminology NOT to make things clearer to the dancers, but in order to \"foster a dance environment where both genders do similar amounts of leading.\" Whatever for? The evidence seems pretty clear that most of the dancers don't want that. The current default roles plus very laissez-faire attitude to individuals changing them seems eminently sensible to me.
If you really want to encourage lead/follow role switching - which definitely can be a valuable learning experience in how dancing works - they obvious way to do it is call a dance where you specifically ask people to do that. Not to mess around with \"port/starboard\" terminology.", "timestamp": "1379444398"}, {"author": "Aleksandra", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628486246402", "anchor": "fb-628486246402", "service": "fb", "text": "Can we have a pirate themed dance in which we test out the port/starboard terminology to see how well dancers adjust to it?", "timestamp": "1379445035"}, {"author": "Alex", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628494250362", "anchor": "fb-628494250362", "service": "fb", "text": "Talk to Maggie Jo.", "timestamp": "1379451456"}, {"author": "Gianna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628494390082", "anchor": "fb-628494390082", "service": "fb", "text": "Interesting discussion. None of the options for various terms bothers me really, although I do think the further away you get from usually-obvious terminology, the more confusing you make the dance, as you're asking people to mentally process another thing while dancing. I'd be curious to see how it works and what kind of feedback you get, as I'm also sensitive to the great points someone made above about continuing to ask people who tend to be asked to bear a lot of gender-related burdens to bear this one for the sake of everyone else.", "timestamp": "1379451547"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628496061732", "anchor": "fb-628496061732", "service": "fb", "text": "Every time this issue comes up, it seems to get more complicated.
As to bands/bares: There are getting to be a lot of dancers in the gender-free community who mostly don't wear bands any more -- I often don't, at least in part so I can switch roles smoothly, unless there are a lot of beginners on the floor and it's early in the evening -- and yet the terms continue to be understood in that context. My only problem with them is that they can be hard to distinguish in sub-optimal sound conditions.
I kind of like the idea of port/starboard, but I can see how it might cause some confusion, and require people to do extra thinking when there's not really time to think. Perhaps you could start with a compromise, by telling dancers to think \"gent\" when they hear \"port\", etc., and hope that it eventually catches on.
For myself, I don't mind \"lady/gent\" -- indeed, I don't much care what the roles are called as long as I can tell them apart -- but I understand why some people object to them, and I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for the \"We've always doe ti this way\" argument. OK, no gypsies, no heys, no clapping on petronellas...", "timestamp": "1379452874"}, {"author": "Ala\u017ftair", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628496126602", "anchor": "fb-628496126602", "service": "fb", "text": "I find this a seaworthy solution, Jeff.", "timestamp": "1379452955"}, {"author": "John-Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628518327112", "anchor": "fb-628518327112", "service": "fb", "text": "We can argue about this all we like, but Bare/Bands is the only alternative that will actually work in any situation. All the other options that have been suggested will not work with beginners, because they don't refer to anything directly present and must be translated. And without beginners, contra will die.", "timestamp": "1379468614"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628518636492", "anchor": "fb-628518636492", "service": "fb", "text": "@John-Michael: \" All the other options that have been suggested will not work with beginners\"
That's a testable claim, and I don't think anyone has tested this yet for port/starboard. I'd like to do so.
I do agree that any potential new terminology should be evaluated primarily by its effect on newcomers.", "timestamp": "1379468733"}, {"author": "John-Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628518846072", "anchor": "fb-628518846072", "service": "fb", "text": "Port and Starboard is additionally problematic for the reason that anyone who actually uses those terms on a regular basis will, like Ian, automatically assume the sides of the hall. Left/Right and Port/Starboard have VERY different meanings. One is with respect to a person's view point, the other with respect to the front of the vehicle.", "timestamp": "1379468866"}, {"author": "John-Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628519125512", "anchor": "fb-628519125512", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jeff I do agree that any potential new terminology should be evaluated primarily by its effect on newcomers.", "timestamp": "1379469073"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628519175412", "anchor": "fb-628519175412", "service": "fb", "text": "@John-Michael: \"One is with respect to a person's view point, the other with respect to the front of the vehicle\"
The couple is a vehicle, with a port side and a starboard side.
There are also extremely few dancers coming in who \"actually use those terms on a regular basis\", so that doesn't worry me too much.", "timestamp": "1379469092"}, {"author": "John-Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628519634492", "anchor": "fb-628519634492", "service": "fb", "text": "to finish my comment that was accidentally posted early....
@Jeff I do agree that any potential new terminology should be evaluated primarily by its effect on newcomers.
I once taught an entire room of people who'd never even seen contra before. By the end of the evening they were doing Heart Beat Contra. But I can tell you that even Lady/Gent was too confusing for them for the first hour or so. I had to use Man/Woman or nothing would happen.", "timestamp": "1379469304"}, {"author": "John-Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628519938882", "anchor": "fb-628519938882", "service": "fb", "text": "That might be a bit of an overstatement but you get the point. I had to do ALL thinking I could for them, any extra would have messed the whole thing up. Having to teach them names for roles that they would be dancing would have severely crippled their ability to learn as fast as they did.", "timestamp": "1379469511"}, {"author": "Will", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628520073612", "anchor": "fb-628520073612", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, the couple rarely move as a vehicle (together as a unit) in the dance.", "timestamp": "1379469570"}, {"author": "Kristina", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628524250242", "anchor": "fb-628524250242", "service": "fb", "text": "I want to participate in this experiment! Who knows whether people will be confused until you give it a try. Jeff, thanks for putting the time and thought into offering an alternative to gendered calls. Port/Starboard doesn't really mean anything to me but I'm sure we'll all figure it out quickly enough after the first walk through.", "timestamp": "1379472146"}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628524374992", "anchor": "fb-628524374992", "service": "fb", "text": "Once again, I'm surprised that the word \"larboard\" was ever used.", "timestamp": "1379472227"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628567733102", "anchor": "fb-628567733102", "service": "fb", "text": "The only time you'd need to know which role was in what place is when you line up at the beginning of the dance (when, for those applying the technical nautical meaning, it will be correct), before the ones cross over. After that, all you need to know is \"I'm a port\" or \"I'm a starboard\", and the nautical meaning is irrelevant.", "timestamp": "1379518575"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628571710132", "anchor": "fb-628571710132", "service": "fb", "text": "Personally, I never had a big problem with any of the terms: lady/gent, lead/follow, bands/barearms...though I did mildly dislike bands and barearms because I don't want to wear them, and I intend to switch roles on a regular basis. But I understand that others dislike or are offended by some of those terms for valid reasons. And there are real segments of the contra dance community who will not attend a non-gender-free dance because of the terms chosen. I think it's worth trying out possible solutions to this problem.
As far as I can tell, no one is suggesting they'd be offended by port and starboard. The main objections I'm seeing have to do with the difficulty of learning new terms. But, is it really that difficult? Sure, it will be confusing for the first few dances. But mostly, confusing to people who already know how to dance -- people who, I think, will figure it out quickly because so much else in contra is already instinctive.
We already have a model for people being capable of learning new terms -- bands and barearms were started from nothing, and people learned how to respond to them very quickly. Yes, there was a physical reminder (less consistently true than there used to be, but still relevant), yet I don't think people were constantly checking their arms to see: wait a second, am I an armband or a barearm? I can't remember. No, they put them on at the beginning, and for the rest of the dance they just remembered which term was theirs. It might have been more useful to others to see who was which role in the next couple, but the lack of this reminder seems like a good thing to me. It encourages people, because they don't have another way to tell the difference, to just dance with whoever is in the right spot. Which is, not incidentally, EXACTLY what people who swap roles (or otherwise don't consistently meet peoples' gender expectations) would like us to do anyway.
Is it confusing to new dancers? Maybe, but I think this is overblown. New dancers are going to be confused for their first few dances pretty much no matter what terms you use -- yes, even gent/lady or man/woman. Will they really be notably MORE confused, or take notably longer to figure out the dance, because we've used Port/Starboard instead? I think not, but you don't have to take my word for it. Just try it out. If it turns out to confuse everyone 10 times as much as what we've always done, then at least we'll learn something from the experiment, and after a few attempts the idea will be laid to rest.", "timestamp": "1379521509"}, {"author": "John-Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628589913652", "anchor": "fb-628589913652", "service": "fb", "text": "@Daniel \"Will they really be notably MORE confused, or take notably longer to figure out the dance, because we've used Port/Starboard instead? I think not, \"
And as someone who has taught raw beginners, played for dances with only beginners, and who's father does nothing but teach beginners, my personal experience tells me that they will be unbelievably confused.", "timestamp": "1379533860"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628592089292", "anchor": "fb-628592089292", "service": "fb", "text": "Agree with John-Michael. Most people who try contra dancing probably aren't aware of gender binary issues, and don't have a clue about how this dancing works. They think dance and expect men dancing with women. The vast majority of them come in expecting to play the role of their physical gender. They are learning what a do-si-do is, how to do a hey, a right and left through, progression, etc. The ONE thing they know when they walk in the door is their physical gender (and MAYBE their right from their left). Giving them another title to try to remember who they are will likely add to the confusion. Maybe this is different in younger communities, I can't say for sure.", "timestamp": "1379535447"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628593706052", "anchor": "fb-628593706052", "service": "fb", "text": "Perhaps, John-Michael. I don't claim to be an expert, but I think this is worth trying out. Regardless of who's right here, or what the shades of gray are in between, we'll find out a lot more definitively by trying it and seeing what happens than by discussing it forever. There has already been a LOT of discussion about it, and no sign of agreement in sight.", "timestamp": "1379536691"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628593940582", "anchor": "fb-628593940582", "service": "fb", "text": "I do agree that everything is worth a try, just to see what happens.", "timestamp": "1379536857"}, {"author": "John-Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628594419622", "anchor": "fb-628594419622", "service": "fb", "text": "I agree that everything is worth a try, but I also think this may be very difficult to properly test. You could certainly call a dance at YDW with P/S but what would you learn? The dancers there would have no problems at all.
On the flip side, can you find a caller who would be willing to try this with a large room of complete beginners? Perry, could you see yourself trying this at the Glen Echo friday beginner lesson?", "timestamp": "1379537101"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628594649162", "anchor": "fb-628594649162", "service": "fb", "text": "I think this has to be totally based on the audience that you are teaching. I do not think that it would work well at all at the Friday night lesson at GE. I don't think the whole experiement would work well at GE at all, even for many of the regulars. I think the best place for an experiment is where the population of young dancers is large, such as at a college dance.", "timestamp": "1379537221"}, {"author": "John-Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628595302852", "anchor": "fb-628595302852", "service": "fb", "text": "And that brings me back to my original point; That nothing other then Bands/Bare Arms could ever work as a replacement for Ladies/Gents. There are plenty of terms that could be used with experienced crowds, but unless a term refers to something you have or something you are, it will not work in all situations.", "timestamp": "1379537667"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628595761932", "anchor": "fb-628595761932", "service": "fb", "text": "The problem I have with the bands/barearms is that if you are trying to demonstrate that the two roles are equal and the same, just one on the left and one on the right, having a marker such as an armband actually accentuates differences rather than sameness. That is why I don't like when women wear ties to represent that they are gents - because the tie is supposed to represent \"gent-ness\", I guess. (Of course, forgetting that I, as a male, am more likely to be seen wearing a skirt than a tie.) I've also seen men wear hair adornments to look like a lady. Certainly armbands are less sexist than ties and headwear. I don't think that the armbands really represents TRUE gender-free, since armband=gent and no armband=lady.", "timestamp": "1379538055"}, {"author": "John-Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628596390672", "anchor": "fb-628596390672", "service": "fb", "text": "Well yeah, that's a whole other argument. I don't like arm bands ether. I also don't like Beau and Belle from MWSD because they're just as gendered as Gent/Lady, and their meanings could be derogatory to some. Same for Gent/Lady I suppose, but Beau and Belle are far more likely to be offensive in my opinion.", "timestamp": "1379538528"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628596944562", "anchor": "fb-628596944562", "service": "fb", "text": "Well, most likely Jeff will try it soon, and we'll see what the results are. I agree, though, that it has to be tried with beginners to be meaningful. A session with YDW would tell us how confusing it is for experienced dancers to deal with new terms, but that's not nearly as important as how it impacts beginners. The experienced folk will figure it out one way or another, but if it bars entry for newbies it's not worth it.", "timestamp": "1379538851"}, {"author": "Jenny", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628611335722", "anchor": "fb-628611335722", "service": "fb", "text": "As a woman (straight as far as I know) who enjoys dancing both roles, I've heard various creative labels for gent/lady. Here's an idea that rides the wave of a recent fad: mustaches/cleanshavens or staches/cleans. Could be amusing, but those with real staches would be stuck in one role... Hey, check out the Lavender Country & Folk Dancers' site: http://www.lcfd.org/. And click on the link under \"Other Information\" near bottom of page for fascinating article by Chris Ricciotti called \"Gender-Free Dancing: Historical Perspective.\" On page 21 it gets back to what to call those dancing gent/lady roles. Carl Wittman tried having reds/greens wear colored ribbons, then went to right-file/left-file. (When I lived in OR, friends of mine attended a group which used the latter terms.) The Les Be Gay and Dance group in MN 1981-98 selected/wrote dances without a need to identify gender, but this proved too limiting/frustrating to keep the interest of the better dancers. The author, in response to a request in Jan 1989, started using armbands/bare-arms or bands/bares. He took this tradition to NEFFA for contra and later ECD. Right-file/left-file is still in use, too.... Happy dancing, y'all!", "timestamp": "1379546082"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628681864382", "anchor": "fb-628681864382", "service": "fb", "text": "Jenny: Thank you for pointing out the historical background. One slight correction: The LCFD community doesn't use bands/bares for ECD; it's all by position. I don't think this would work for contra (I'm told that a group in Minneapolis used it years ago, but it greatly restricted the number of dances it was possible to call). There's a quite small number of English dances that are significantly more difficult to teach without reference to roles, but not impossible.", "timestamp": "1379575535"}, {"author": "Will", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628697068912", "anchor": "fb-628697068912", "service": "fb", "text": "At some point someone mentioned that Diane Silver had suggested \"Reds\" and \"Yellows\" which terms are very neutral (unlike some other color pairs) and a clearly distinct from a caller's point of view. I was intrigued and so wrote to Diane to ask her about it. With her permission I share the following reply:
\"Hi Will -- yes, Reds and Yellows is from me. I started it with ONS [one night stand] dances that really wanted to do \"real\" contra dancing, but they were super gender imbalanced, or sometimes had teenage boys who didn't want to \"be the girl.\" So I do \"red on the right\" and \"lellow on the left\" -- and I use red and yellow forestry tape to tie on their right or left wrist accordingly. And then I point out that when they have it right, the wristbands don't touch, so if the wrist bands are together, switch to the other side. It makes progression work, even when doing a 2-hand swing instead of a regular ballroom swing. I point out that when you balance and swing your neighbor (like at the beginning of the dance) you end up trading places, and then I call, \"neighbor balance and swing. Trade place, face across, with the red on the right!\" and it seems to work pretty well. I haven't ever called a modern, adult, gender-free evening, so I haven't used it in that context, but it would certainly be my preference over bands and bare-arms.\"", "timestamp": "1379599321"}, {"author": "Gianna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628703965092", "anchor": "fb-628703965092", "service": "fb", "text": "Daniel there may be a group between rank beginners and regularly attending, experienced dancers. I don't have proof, only my own individual experience, but there may be folks who dance enough to not be beginners, but not often enough to be an experienced dancer. I think this group presents the biggest risk because rather than being something brief to learn and get over, non-obvious roles can deter someone from dancing. I avoided gender-free dances for awhile because it was impossible to tell who was dancing which role and I was not experienced enough for it to seem fun. This is partly because not only were the terms different, but people were dancing the opposite role from what they were wearing (people with bare arms were dancing the bands role because they hadn't bothered to put on a band when they switched roles, and vice versa). Maybe Jeff's solution would actually work better here, because we're only talking about changing terms, not articles of clothing. Hmm.", "timestamp": "1379601790"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628775541652", "anchor": "fb-628775541652", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm in.", "timestamp": "1379650799"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628778336052", "anchor": "fb-628778336052", "service": "fb", "text": "Gianna, that's certainly true, and we should consider in-between folks too rather than just newbies and experienced folk. I'm curious, though, why you feel it so important to know at sight who is dancing which role?
If a caller says \"ladies allemande right in the center\", for instance, and I'm dancing the ladies role, I'll go to the center and allemande the other person who comes to the center. It doesn't really matter to me whether I knew in advance who would come there, or which role the person was dancing. As long as someone comes, I assume it's the person who's supposed to be there. (I usually do know their role in advance by the position they're standing in, but it doesn't seem like I NEED to know, or that there's a problem if I don't.) If someone's in the spot where a \"lady\" should be, I dance with them as though they're a lady. If someone's doing the action the caller announced for the \"gents\" to do, I dance with them as though they're a gent. The general idea is pithily summed up on shirts as \"Dance with who's comin' atcha!\"
Obviously it's confusing if you don't instantly recognize the name of YOUR role, but I think knowing the role of anyone else is relatively expendable. Just dance with the person who's there!", "timestamp": "1379653103"}, {"author": "Emily", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628788420842", "anchor": "fb-628788420842", "service": "fb", "text": "why not just simplify the whole thing and pick two letters that sound different from each other, like... As and Bs or something, it doesnt really matter as long as they arent intended on standing for something (like dont pick Gs and Ls, because people will definitely be like this stands for gents and ladies!!), and dont sound too similar (like Ms and Ns). they arent multisyllable, and people can easily put themselves into one category or the other (or at least as easily as with other words, especially because people are used to dividing things into A group, B group, etc).", "timestamp": "1379673552"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628789149382", "anchor": "fb-628789149382", "service": "fb", "text": "As & Bs does have some resonance with 1s & 2s. I like it, at least as much as the other terms. Color words might also work, but I'd go with something other than yellow.", "timestamp": "1379674746"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628801190252", "anchor": "fb-628801190252", "service": "fb", "text": "@Daniel: \"why you feel it so important to know at sight who is dancing which role?\"
Imagine you go to the center for that aleman left and neither of the people opposite you come in. One of them is on the right, but the one on the left kind of looks like they think they should come in. If you know which one of them is trying to dance the lady, from their physical gender, the lack of an armband, or knowing what role they like to dance, then you know who to make eye contact with and move towards. Otherwise you have to fall back to pure position-based dancing, and when new dancers are out of position they'll switch roles and get more confused.", "timestamp": "1379685533"}, {"author": "Marcus", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628803969682", "anchor": "fb-628803969682", "service": "fb", "text": "For the letter theory: how about \"R\"s and \"L\"s? E.g., \"Rs end the swing on the right of their partner\". That keeps the physical meaning of port/starboard, but easier to remember for people, and doesn't include the word \"star\". And on talk like a pirate day, the Rs can really get into it...", "timestamp": "1379687305"}, {"author": "Aaron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628804428762", "anchor": "fb-628804428762", "service": "fb", "text": "I support this as a way for me to finally figure out which sides port and starboard are.", "timestamp": "1379687672"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628807432742", "anchor": "fb-628807432742", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, that's true. What would you propose we do about it, though? Continuing to call as gent and lady certainly provides a basis for them, but you clearly want to get away from gender-based calling. I think the armbands are clumsy, and you're definitely looking for a different solution. Anything that takes gender out of the names is going to make that aspect more difficult, unless you want to say something like \"We're calling this role 'Port', but it's the one traditionally played by men\" -- which seems also counter to your goals here.
Also, are you expecting to present this to new dancers in a way that they will immediately just dance whichever role they end up in for each dance? Even if gender isn't the primary way one decides their dance role, I do think it would be useful for new dancers to start by consistently dancing the same role. Swapping roles, knowing when to end up on the left and when on the right and which arms to raise when you're in which role, is a more advanced thing. I love swapping roles, but I'd never ask my partner to swap with me if they were new -- I'd expect him/her to do whichever role s/he's used to. If you took a man, and taught that person to consistently dance the lady's role first, it might impede his ability to join a different dance community with that knowledge, until he's comfortable with both. That community might expect him to take the gent's role most of the time.
Edited to add more:
Re: armbands, I think it's typically true that people who are consistently dancing the same role throughout the dance will wear them, and it's more likely (or at least ought to be) experienced dancers who would swap. So, they ought to be reliable indicators for the couple in your example, if you used armbands, and you should be able to use purely position-based dancing when your neighbors are experienced. They know how to be in the right place at the right time (and/or don't mind if they get swapped accidentally). I think one ought to be able to use position-based dancing for any couple that hasn't chosen to wear armbands at an armband dance, which was Gianna's original example.
Maybe that would be something the caller could encourage -- if you aren't confident yet as a dancer, wear an armband/indicator so others know how to help you. I've generally found that wearing an armband is a consistent indicator of role, but not wearing an armband doesn't necessarily indicate the other role, because many people just don't do that. Would this be a reasonable compromise for Port/Starboard? Suggest, perhaps, that new dancers wear something that indicates their role (though the role wouldn't have to be named for it). Use positional dancing for anyone who does not have an indicator.", "timestamp": "1379689606"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628808934732", "anchor": "fb-628808934732", "service": "fb", "text": "I don't like a's & b's or r/L because lack of 1:2 syllable ratio that gent/lady has.
I further prefer to use terms that have:
- intrinsic positional indication, which letters do not
- are not used in common vernacular as letters or colors do (another reason I don't use men / women)
Lastly, R/L both begin with vowels, and lack a certain punch when saying them. They also sound far less distinct from each other than other choices.", "timestamp": "1379690533"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628809249102", "anchor": "fb-628809249102", "service": "fb", "text": "Daniel... re: the part of \"... the role men normally dance\". Why even mention it? \"Ports should have the starboard on their right side\" is explicitly clear to me.", "timestamp": "1379690770"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628809303992", "anchor": "fb-628809303992", "service": "fb", "text": "@Daniel: \"What would you propose we do about it, though?\"
I think on balance being able to assume dance-role from appearance is just something we're going to need to give up. I was trying to answer your question to Gianna, though, as to why knowing at sight who is dancing what role is helpful.", "timestamp": "1379690794"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628809598402", "anchor": "fb-628809598402", "service": "fb", "text": "Ron, I was not suggesting that we should mention that. I was just sort of going through the possible ways of alleviating the confusion Jeff had mentioned, and why each one didn't seem like the right choice to me.
\"Unless you want to say something like \"[quoted above]\" -- which seems also counter to your goals here.\"", "timestamp": "1379690978"}, {"author": "Gianna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628810197202", "anchor": "fb-628810197202", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff Kaufman Daniel Jeff pretty much summarized why it's useful to be able to use sight as one (of many) ways of orienting yourself - and helping others - in a dance. There are tradeoffs involved in switching things up - not that they aren't worth it - but they are there.", "timestamp": "1379691511"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1379692051"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628811544502", "anchor": "fb-628811544502", "service": "fb", "text": "Elliot, remember that 1s and 2s are already used for the two couples in each hands four. I like the idea of using A and 1 rather than 1 and 2 or A and B, because it gets rid of any implication that one is primary and the other secondary, but unless you want to change ANOTHER set of contra terminology at the same time, you really can't use Role 1.", "timestamp": "1379692485"}, {"author": "Carl", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628811654282", "anchor": "fb-628811654282", "service": "fb", "text": "\u2026
\"A\"s and \"Alpha\"s", "timestamp": "1379692577"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628812332922", "anchor": "fb-628812332922", "service": "fb", "text": "I might suggest that this is past a brainstorming time. If you have a suggestion, please defend it. Please explain why it is better / equal to other suggestions. I mean this in the nicest way possible, but just adding new random ideas is not terribly productive.", "timestamp": "1379693111"}, {"author": "Emily", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628830606302", "anchor": "fb-628830606302", "service": "fb", "text": "So to sum up, people in the original post and following discussion are looking for the following (coming from not any one person, but accumulated from what is here.) (please add if Ive missed something important)
- completely gender neutral
- true to the dance style (ie not using lead/follow because of the leading and following aspect not entirely relevant in contra)
- without aspects used in other areas of the dance (ie 1s and 2s, starboard, right and left etc)
- providing a clear idea for new dancers to help with where they are supposed to physically BE (aka easy to follow and understand), especially in lack of a visual indicator
- and along with that, clear intrinsic positional indicator overall
- 1:2 syllable ratio (Im assuming, because the pre existing standard terms- gent/lady or lead/follow- have this)
- not used in common speech
- distinct sound/ability to easily differentiate between terms
- not having one sound \"better\" than the other (or not primary/secondary)
honestly, I'm not sure if there even EXISTS a set of terms that could be used to fulfill the criteria so that everyone is completely ok with them.
SO, my conclusion is at present, that we should just make up completely new words. Like, invent them. Then they do what we want them to do, dont mean anything else, and by definition ARE what we are talking about.
For those who would say this would confuse new dancers, 1. new dancers who come from other dance types would be able to equate the terms with what they already know. 2. dancers who are new to dancing in general would have just as hard of a time figuring out words that are NOT lady/gent or left/right or even lead/follow as made up words that do the same thing. They would then just learn that that is what they are referred to at whatever dance. (why yes, I guess I AM the snarkblat.)
The other main option I can see is to just... figure out which aspects are overall the most important (probably comfort of dancers- gender, etc- and not easily mixed up with other dance parts, etc) and take whatever solves THOSE best. like, if the ideal solution has each term only one syllable, I think that is much more acceptable than settling for terms that make people feel uncomfortable (since one of the points of this is to make people who currently feel uncomfortable feel more comfortable.)", "timestamp": "1379699843"}, {"author": "Jim", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628871404542", "anchor": "fb-628871404542", "service": "fb", "text": "Emily: Using made up words is harder for humans until they have been beaten into the head long enough to become part of the persons vocabulary. Until then, just hearing that new word results in non-trivial extra processing.", "timestamp": "1379723405"}, {"author": "Emily", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628906344522", "anchor": "fb-628906344522", "service": "fb", "text": "Along those lines though, for everyone who is familiar with the current standard terms, using ANY new terms will create the same amount of non-trivial extra processing for everyone who has been dancing before and needs to change their vocabulary from one thing to another thing. So really, the only way to avoid that is to keep the terms that are currently used.", "timestamp": "1379768859"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628907946312", "anchor": "fb-628907946312", "service": "fb", "text": "@Emily: \"ANY new terms will create the same amount of non-trivial extra processing for everyone who has been dancing before\"
The stronger form of this argument is that \"lady/gent\" doesn't require extra processing for new dancers, \"bands/bares\" requires a little processing, and all the other suggestions require more processing. Experienced dancers would adjust; the real question is how the terminology works for new dancers.", "timestamp": "1379770489"}, {"author": "Carl", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628911015162", "anchor": "fb-628911015162", "service": "fb", "text": "\u2026
I believe the solution to the problem lies in education.
Teach the new dancers (and the old) that \"lady\" and \"gent\" are not actually gender-based terms as we use them.
Could be a good life lesson in itself.", "timestamp": "1379773223"}, {"author": "Neil", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628934158782", "anchor": "fb-628934158782", "service": "fb", "text": "The question that pops into my mind is: if these terms were used at regular, non-gender-free, dances, how long would they last as non-gendered terms? How long would it take with people telling new dancers (or just dancers unfamiliar with the terms) that starboard is the term the role that is traditionally danced by women, for the terms to become practically synonymous?", "timestamp": "1379789974"}, {"author": "Laura", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628944862332", "anchor": "fb-628944862332", "service": "fb", "text": "^ It might require a dance series/group to intentionally switch roles often, and actively encourage new dancers to learn both roles from the beginning...otherwise, as Neil said, they would become new gendered terms.", "timestamp": "1379796672"}, {"author": "Laura", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628945720612", "anchor": "fb-628945720612", "service": "fb", "text": "Rowan, that's a good point - asking them to pick one for a night is good, but in order to avoid gender-association, you'd need the majority of experienced dancers to mix up their roles - otherwise, if a new dancer realizes most of the others in their chosen role seem to be of another gender it might make them think they're \"wrong\" - AND experienced dancers might assume the new dancer has switched roles by accident, which could be upsetting.", "timestamp": "1379797129"}, {"author": "Laura", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628945880292", "anchor": "fb-628945880292", "service": "fb", "text": "I do like that \"port\" is 1 syllable and \"starboard\" is 2...sorry if this has been said earlier, since I haven't read all the comments, but one good thing about lady/gent from a caller's perspective is that they sound different. man/woman sound too similar in addition to being even more gendered (in my opinion) than lady/gent. Bands/bares in my opinion sound too similar too, whether or not they refer to a visual cue.", "timestamp": "1379797240"}, {"author": "Laura", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628946199652", "anchor": "fb-628946199652", "service": "fb", "text": "Perhaps this might be a good way to try in a one-night stand scenario: no preconceived notions of gender roles in contra dancing (it's different enough from ballroom and even square dancing so that I might disagree with people \"coming and expecting to dance with members of the opposite gender\"...I didn't really expect anything, to be honest, when I started). I might try it with a group of 4th graders, since most of them prefer to dance with members of their peer group/friends, which at that age tend to be members of the same sex. They might react more negatively to, as someone mentioned earlier, \"dancing the girl part\" or \"the boy part\".", "timestamp": "1379797415"}, {"author": "Richard", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628946948152", "anchor": "fb-628946948152", "service": "fb", "text": "I have a question that may be a little hard to express. Much of the dancing I do involves no \"roles\" at all--for example, circle dances at international folk dancing. Many English country dances are completely equal for the two \"roles\"--for example, Hole in the Wall. For contra terminology I'm happy with Gent and Lady, but happy to see people experimenting with other terminology for various reasons. What I wonder is, would the folks who are uncomfortable with Gent and Lady like to see contra become less of a dance with two separate roles? Should we consider moving away from the ballroom-hold swing, which is unequal for the two roles, and use swings that are symmetrical? Certainly contra choreography can be equal for both \"roles\" too, e.g., the traditional contra Haste to the Wedding. I'd love to hear people's opinions.", "timestamp": "1379797805"}, {"author": "Laura", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628947052942", "anchor": "fb-628947052942", "service": "fb", "text": "Also, don't assume that ubiquity or conventionality means something is the best way or is totally OK with everyone. In college for music education we were actually penalized for using \"guys\" to refer to a group of students. My professor preferred \"folks\" or \"class\", because to say \"guys\" is a hegemonic practice. He allowed \"ladies and gentlemen\" or \"boys and girls\" but I avoid them because the latter feels condescending to me (even though I teach elementary school) and the former seems awkward with my age group...also, it presents gender as having only 2 options, which I would prefer not to do as an authority figure.", "timestamp": "1379797903"}, {"author": "Laura", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628947227592", "anchor": "fb-628947227592", "service": "fb", "text": "(With adults, who are less impressionable, I am OK with using lady/gent as a caller...but if a more equitable system were adopted by a dance community, I would be open to using it there.) Richard, I thought of the egalitarian nature of English too. Perhaps an alternative to the ballroom hold swing might make swinging more comfortable for new dancers, as well - so much touching all in one night definitely scares some people off.", "timestamp": "1379798053"}, {"author": "Laura", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628947561922", "anchor": "fb-628947561922", "service": "fb", "text": "I think the main reasons for having roles is to find out who ends on what side of a swing so that the progression works, and who allemandes with whom at what time so that you keep the original partner...", "timestamp": "1379798141"}, {"author": "Laura", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628948450142", "anchor": "fb-628948450142", "service": "fb", "text": "I'd also like to note that beginners are ALWAYS going to be at least a little bit confused. Generally, a lot confused - and it's the welcoming, forgiving attitude of the experienced dancers (and the great music, etc) that make up for it. I kind of doubt that new terms, IF they are understood and accepted by the experienced dancers and used fluently by the caller, would increase the confusion. Having the experienced dancers confused would increase the new dancers' confusion...but that isn't really the fault of the new terms.", "timestamp": "1379798638"}, {"author": "Laura", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628948759522", "anchor": "fb-628948759522", "service": "fb", "text": "Harrisburg gives out \"Help me, I'm new!\" badges (okay, they say it more nicely than that!) which might help experienced dancers..", "timestamp": "1379798871"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628987167552", "anchor": "fb-628987167552", "service": "fb", "text": "ultimately people are going to dance with people that they want to dance with. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with preferring the opposite gender for partners. Changing peoples dance behaviors is a completely different topic from dance terminology. Dance communities should be able to have their own set of values. If one community wants to promote people dancing both roles, then that's great. However I see no reason fat the change in terminology is implicitly connected to that, and I would not want to push changes in dance behavior and dance preferences another communities just because one community believes it is better", "timestamp": "1379823795"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628987442002", "anchor": "fb-628987442002", "service": "fb", "text": "and before I get flamed for saying that, today I was asked to do the beginners lesson at New York. I had people get up in the circle, partnered them off whomever they were next to,", "timestamp": "1379823949"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=628997157532", "anchor": "fb-628997157532", "service": "fb", "text": "\"Changing peoples dance behaviors is a completely different topic from dance terminology. \"
Well, *completely* different? I think it's at least arguable that terminology affects behavior. Similarly, there was an earlier suggestion that we just \"explain\" that the terms \"lady\" and \"gent\" don't refer to actual gender in the contra context, but you can't change people's longstanding associations with these words, and those associations do matter to some people.
I agree that there's nothing wrong with preferring the opposite gender for partners. I suspect that you would agree (in principle) that there's nothing wrong with preferring the *same* gender for partners; but the insistence on gendered terminology can make people feel as if there is (in the eyes of the community).", "timestamp": "1379837978"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=629025301132", "anchor": "fb-629025301132", "service": "fb", "text": "Robert - smart thoughts. To be clear, I was referring to the intent. Naturally, yes, language will affect how people think and behave. My goal is that terminology might be more inclusive, not to insist that people partner up with people they don't want to.", "timestamp": "1379864838"}, {"author": "Laura", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=629028943832", "anchor": "fb-629028943832", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm not suggesting that we require experienced dancers to dance with people they do not want to dance with, but I think in order for the new terminology to be perceived by new dancers as truly genderless (rather than \"men usually dance port except when there are more women than men, and some women prefer to dance that role too\") we'd need the experienced dancers to intentionally mix it up for a while.", "timestamp": "1379866970"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=629032187332", "anchor": "fb-629032187332", "service": "fb", "text": "Which means that this might be a good experiment to try at, say, BIDA, and not so good at, say, the Scout House (as if!).", "timestamp": "1379869129"}, {"author": "Brad", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=629032222262", "anchor": "fb-629032222262", "service": "fb", "text": "port starboard works for me", "timestamp": "1379869143"}, {"author": "Ted", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/628454604812?comment_id=629239786302", "anchor": "fb-629239786302", "service": "fb", "text": "Just the other day at one of the local dances (Louisville KY), I heard the caller say something like \"We're going to call the person on the right 'llady' and the person on the left the 'gent', regardless of gender.\" That seemed to work for everyone.", "timestamp": "1380037088"}]}