{"items": [{"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/470699439631863?comment_id=470706349631172", "anchor": "fb-470706349631172", "service": "fb", "text": "Interesting questions, and I hope you're successful in your attempts to head off the \"usual discussions\". I don't know if it would attract more dancers, but it might reduce inhibitions against dancing the \"other\" role.", "timestamp": "1357317658"}, {"author": "TC", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/470699439631863?comment_id=470711742963966", "anchor": "fb-470711742963966", "service": "fb", "text": "If BIDA switched to un-gendered terms I would certainly have more fun and probably go more.
But I think your questions are not geared towards people who are already dancing gender-free.", "timestamp": "1357318435"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1357318931868", "service": "gp", "text": "Are you asking whether whether it's important to try to get rid of the expectation of opposite-sex pairs and traditional roles (the expectation exists everywhere! I think you said in an early thread that you'd rarely ask a man you don't know to dance unless only men are left)?\n
\n
\n... Or whether changing the names would help with that endeavor?\n
\n
\nBoth look like clear \"yes\" to me. ", "timestamp": 1357318931}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1357319037578", "service": "gp", "text": "(As a bit of evidence for both, there's lots of regulars at our gender free dance that I never see at other dances.)", "timestamp": 1357319037}, {"author": "Will", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/470699439631863?comment_id=470715412963599", "anchor": "fb-470715412963599", "service": "fb", "text": "I think that non-gendered terms that still give positional information (left-hand person, right-hand person) and don't otherwise carry any referential or connotational baggage will ultimately be the way to go. Port/Starboard works for me but as Alan Winston notes on the Contra Dancers FB page:
\"Mr. Playford's charts showing the initial formation for dances (in 1651 - 1728) used suns (or full moons; they're circles, anyways) and crescents, so there's long historical precedent for moons and suns.\"", "timestamp": "1357319208"}, {"author": "Fran\u00e7ois-Ren\u00e9", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/470699439631863?comment_id=470715916296882", "anchor": "fb-470715916296882", "service": "fb", "text": "If you think genders are equal, why object to being called \"lady\" when you follow?", "timestamp": "1357319297"}, {"author": "Fran\u00e7ois-Ren\u00e9", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/470699439631863?comment_id=470717802963360", "anchor": "fb-470717802963360", "service": "fb", "text": "If you're white, do you also object when you get the black token in a board game?", "timestamp": "1357319619"}, {"author": "Ben", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/470699439631863?comment_id=470717999630007", "anchor": "fb-470717999630007", "service": "fb", "text": "In less gender-sensitive places, such as Texas, people are less comfortable dancing with people of the same gender. In fact, if the terms became gender neutral and more people were dancing the opposite role, I think it might drive some people away. (Although I think this is more men. Women more often dance the gent part, and while men are generally ok with the occasional swing, very few people do full dances with another guy).
For less experienced dancers, I think that expecting someone of a certain gender to be there helps them. If they know their next neighbor is going to be a guy, they look for another guy. Furthermore, women dancing the gent part generally throw on a tie (or have a little \"boy\" sign around their neck), so that others aren't confused. I've found that when I start gender bending, too many people are confused because I'm not female.
Overall, I feel that even though contra is very welcoming to non-traditional genders, using traditional terminology is helpful.", "timestamp": "1357319660"}, {"author": "Holley", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/470699439631863?comment_id=470720499629757", "anchor": "fb-470720499629757", "service": "fb", "text": "gender bending, gender swapping within a dance, women dancing with women and men dancing with other men is becoming more and more the norm in NC. I most often see the younger guys dancing with their malefriends.", "timestamp": "1357320158"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/470699439631863?comment_id=470720849629722", "anchor": "fb-470720849629722", "service": "fb", "text": "Ben: Perhaps one of our goals should be to change that whole set of assumptions. Yes, that will probably take longer in some places than others. I have noticed that in the mostly-gender-traditional dances in Concord (MA), people are rarely confused to see me in the \"lady\"'s role, even when my partner is female.", "timestamp": "1357320216"}, {"author": "Audrey", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/470699439631863?comment_id=470732019628605", "anchor": "fb-470732019628605", "service": "fb", "text": "I'd be curious to find out if other types of \"traditional\" couple social dancing have made the switch to gender neutral terms and what happened once they did change.", "timestamp": "1357322082"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1357322204853", "service": "gp", "text": "@David Chudzicki\n\u00a0\"are you asking whether it's important to try to get rid of the expectation of opposite-sex pairs and traditional roles or whether changing the names would help with that endeavor?\"\n
\n
\nThe latter, and the former to the extent that the latter is true. \u00a0Elaborate on why they're clear \"yes\"s? \u00a0As someone who helps run a dance series that could start suggesting to its callers that they use non-gendered terminology if they think they can do it well, I don't currently have enough in the \"benefits of the name change\" column to push for it.\n
\n
\n\"you said in an early thread that you'd rarely ask a man you don't know to dance unless only men are left\"\n
\n
\nYup. \u00a0It feels awkward and I'm afraid of them saying no.", "timestamp": 1357322204}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1357323502155", "service": "gp", "text": "@David Chudzicki\n\u00a0\"there's lots of regulars at our gender free dance that I never see at other dances\"\n
\n
\nThis happens in Boston too, but I don't think that would go away if the mainstream dances switched to gender-free terminology. \u00a0The historically gender-free dance would still have a culture of being more lgbtq-friendly and welcoming.", "timestamp": 1357323502}, {"author": "Bronwyn", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112209325452034727224", "anchor": "gp-1357324382625", "service": "gp", "text": "\"As a bit of evidence for both, there's lots of regulars at our gender free dance that I never see at other dances.\"\n
\nDoesn't this go the other way as well? \u00a0People who are regulars at 'gendered' dances who don't go to gender-free dances? \u00a0Not having a local gender-free dance, I don't have personal experience one way or the other.\n
\n
\nI like the focus on removing community \nexpectations\n of male-female partnering. \u00a0(As opposed to removing individuals' preference for same- or other- or any- gender partnering.) \u00a0I'm not yet convinced of how important\u00a0terminology is (as opposed to, say, increased emphasis both through teaching and through example on the terms being historical and not referential to the gender of the dancers). \u00a0Perhaps it's hard for me to understand the importance of the words because personally for whatever reason I have no problem being called a 'man' or 'gent' or whatever else in the context of dancing.\u00a0 Until seeing a bunch of these discussions recently, it never even crossed my mind that I might find that uncomfortable.", "timestamp": 1357324382}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1357324480550", "service": "gp", "text": "For the latter: So we know there's an expectation of opposite-gender pairs. My claim is that \"lady\" and \"gent\" reinforce that expectation, and changing the words would undermine it. Surely people (at least new dancers) are influenced by the words -- but even if not, changing them would be a clear signal from the dance organizers that the expectation should change. (It would be clear that's why the words were changing.)\n
\n
\nFor the former: There are surely people who prefer not to be restricted by the opposite-gender pairs expectation. They'd like the dance better with a less strong expectation. I've talked with a bunch of people who say they'd go to our regular dances more if they were less heteronormative. (And yes, as Bronwyn notes, there are people who prefer heteronormative expectations. But I don't like that.)", "timestamp": 1357324480}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1357325078757", "service": "gp", "text": "@David Chudzicki\n: \"changing them would be a clear signal from the dance organizers that the expectation should change\"\n
\n
\nIt's not the only way to send a signal, though. \u00a0Callers can make\u00a0announcements, the dance can put up signs (BIDA already has lots of colorful signs, though I don't think we have this one), the organizers can set an example by dancing both roles. \u00a0Is changing the terms enough better than other easier things we could do that we should do it instead?", "timestamp": 1357325078}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/470699439631863?comment_id=470748256293648", "anchor": "fb-470748256293648", "service": "fb", "text": "@Travis: \"I think your questions are not geared towards people who are already dancing gender-free.\"
My main question is: would gender free terminology have positive effects, enough that I should try to convince other organizers of mainstream contra dances to suggest to their callers that if they felt capable and comfortable with gender-free terminology they should use it.", "timestamp": "1357325274"}, {"author": "Bronwyn", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112209325452034727224", "anchor": "gp-1357325549413", "service": "gp", "text": "\"Is changing the terms enough better than other easier things we could do that we should do it instead\"\n
\nThis is precisely what I'm thinking about. \u00a0The reason I hesitate to use new terms is primarily practical. \u00a0The use of gendered terms is very thoroughly ingrained in my head from a lifetime of dancing (maybe the fact that I primarily danced with my female friends as a young kid helps remove the gender association in my case?). \u00a0I suspect it would take me a long time to start using other words in my head. \u00a0Of course, if we switched this wouldn't be a problem for the next generation of dancers.\n
\n
\nI think it's also true that changing the words isn't enough by itself. \u00a0The expectation of oposite-sex partnering is, I think, established as much by example as by words. \u00a0I suspect there will always be many more people choosing to dance with oposite-sex partners most of the time, so I think even with different words, explicitly pointing out that any partnership is fine (in the ways Jeff suggests) would still be important. \u00a0How much additional difference do the names make?", "timestamp": 1357325549}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/470699439631863?comment_id=470751302960010", "anchor": "fb-470751302960010", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jeff: \"would gender free terminology have positive effects, enough that I should try to convince other organizers...\" Phrased that way, I'd say the answer is \"You won't know unless you try it\". Of course, I know that what you're trying to find out here is whether people *think* it will have positive effects, and some of us, myself included, think it will (while others, apparently, think it might have *negative* effects). But none of us really has enough experience with the experiment to know with any degree of certainty.", "timestamp": "1357325951"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1357326130864", "service": "gp", "text": "Interesting. Maybe I'm underestimating the practical difficulties? The terms most firmly in my head for the roles are \nalready\n \"lead\" and \"follow\".\n
\n
\nI had believed that that's the case for most people who are comfortable with people dancing outside the traditional roles. But it looks like I may be wrong. E.g., \n@Bronwyn\n\u00a0-- you ask people if they'd rather be the lady or gent, rather than if they'd like to lead or follow? \n@Jeff Kaufman\n? Or that people say \"I was following most of the dances\" rather than \"I was the lady most of the dances\".", "timestamp": 1357326130}, {"author": "Fran\u00e7ois-Ren\u00e9", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/470699439631863?comment_id=470752596293214", "anchor": "fb-470752596293214", "service": "fb", "text": "Positive effect on WHOM? Who do you think is enough of an idiot to stop being offended by the very same FACTS just because you have put a different WORDS on it?", "timestamp": "1357326214"}, {"author": "Bronwyn", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112209325452034727224", "anchor": "gp-1357326506092", "service": "gp", "text": "@David Chudzicki\n\u00a0, yes, I do think (and usually say) 'gent', 'lady', 'guy' or similar. \u00a0I actually take a second to parse it when I hear lead/follow because I really don't think of the roles that way (just a personal statement, not trying to restart that giant discussion).", "timestamp": 1357326506}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1357326846160", "service": "gp", "text": "I think the names make a pretty significant difference to very new dancers, at least in terms of which role they choose to dance. I don't know if it influences who they would ask to dance beyond the overall heteronormative expectations of the culture, though.\n
\n
\nThis makes sense; new dancers are looking for anything they can do to make the dance easier to keep up with, and aligning the gendered calls to their gender identity is surely a way to do this. At gender-free dances that's not an option, so new dancers seem mostly to pick a role and stick to it for the evening in order to make it easier to determine what calls to respond to.\n
\n
\nI don't know that I would expect a colorful sign to do much to change the community's expectations about who dances which role and with whom. But I've never been to a dance that had such signs about anything, or if I have I did not notice. Do you find your other signs to have an effect? ", "timestamp": 1357326846}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1357327007701", "service": "gp", "text": "Thanks Bronwyn. I suppose I was underestimating the difficulties changing the words. I also don't actually know how well other methods of changing the culture will work, and how helpful changing the words would be.", "timestamp": 1357327007}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/470699439631863?comment_id=470759752959165", "anchor": "fb-470759752959165", "service": "fb", "text": "Fran\u00e7ois-Ren\u00e9: Apparently, some people do care about the terminology. Their experience is different from yours. If that makes them \"idiots\", I don't see why you would want to have a discussion with them.
There's also the possibility, which is a good part of what this discussion is actually about, that changes in \"WORDS\" might have an effect on the \"FACTS\" in question.", "timestamp": "1357327534"}, {"author": "Bronwyn", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112209325452034727224", "anchor": "gp-1357327891115", "service": "gp", "text": "Anecdotally, there have recently been an increasing number of men dancing with men (especially among the younger set) at my local dance (women have always danced together moderately frequently). \u00a0I've seen a guy go up to new male dancers and get them dancing when they didn't have a partner yet. \u00a0This same sort of thing has been happening with women since I've been here. \u00a0The new person usually dances their gender-matched role (as \n@Allison\n\u00a0says, it's easier to stick with one role for a while). \u00a0It seems to me that these examples from (and personal interactions with) peers are pretty powerful for new dancers. \u00a0Maybe more powerful than the words, maybe not. \u00a0For what it's worth, this community is one of the best I've seen in terms of quickly integrating new people - they are usually among the first to get partners, experienced couples sometimes take the initiative to split up if two new people end up together at the beginning of the evening. \u00a0Maybe prioritizing getting new people experienced partners is weighted over gender concerns in the community and that helps?", "timestamp": 1357327891}, {"author": "Will", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/470699439631863?comment_id=470856239616183", "anchor": "fb-470856239616183", "service": "fb", "text": "Part of my own interest in considering possible new terminology is reflect what is already happening with the contra community, at least here in Western Massachusetts (and referring to the non-Gender Free dances). In the 30+ years I've been contra-dancing there have always been people who sometimes or regularly dance what many people would see as the non-traditional role for the person's apparent gender. Thirty or even 10-15 years ago, this would have largely been women dancing with women.
However, in the last 5 years, the number of men regularly dancing with men. and women dancing together but in non-traditional roles, has increased tremendously. It's most notable among the under-35 dancers, and I very much expect this trend to continue. Men in particular seem to be increasingly more open to and interested in dancing with other men or dancing reverse roles with women.
Some folks are bothered by the traditional terms, others are not but I think it's useful to keep thinking about it. If we can find something that works for most everyone, and is more inclusive, I think that's all to the good. Contra has evolved in many ways over time due to the interests of the dancers, callers and musicians. Especially in the last 40-50 years we've seen the development of \"zesty\" urban contras, the development of a \"dance community\" rather than an existing community that comes together for a dance, and the increasing cross-pollination of musical genres that produce the likes of Wild Asparagus, Giant Robot Dance, The Gaslight Tinkers, Firecloud, and so many more fabulous bands.
I think this discussion is very fruitful regardless of whether we come up with the perfect new terms or not and I appreciate everyone who has been taking part.", "timestamp": "1357339977"}, {"author": "Gianna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/470699439631863?comment_id=470902356278238", "anchor": "fb-470902356278238", "service": "fb", "text": "I'd have no problem with it, but one thing I find a little confusing at the gender free dances I've been to is that after the first dance or two, people stop wearing the arm brand or whatever role signifier is supposed to signal a particular dance part. I never realized how much I was using gender to help me figure out where to go next until I tried to dance gender free. So while I'm happy to change terms, dance the \"other\" role, our dance with someone of the same gender, I do find it helpful to have some sort of visual cue.", "timestamp": "1357349201"}, {"author": "Rachel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/470699439631863?comment_id=470979852937155", "anchor": "fb-470979852937155", "service": "fb", "text": "Bronwyn Woods, I also have \"woman\" ingrained in my head from dancing for many years, but I don't have a problem translating when I dance at the genderfree dance and use armband/barearm language. So it might not be as difficult as you imagine (though you and I may have different experiences of how it works in our brains)", "timestamp": "1357365362"}, {"author": "Christopher", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/470699439631863?comment_id=471078162927324", "anchor": "fb-471078162927324", "service": "fb", "text": "I prefer role names to reference gender, and would prefer it to remain that way, primarily because I am fairly conservative, and have a base preference to retain older ways of doing things unless there is a very compelling reason to change. (This is completely ignoring all the political battles that can and often are fought over terminology.)", "timestamp": "1357387662"}]}