{"items": [{"author": "Gawain", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870270598622", "anchor": "fb-870270598622", "service": "fb", "text": "Interesting idea, but I think your premise that \"If you can dig up one block in a week then you an dig up all the blocks in a week\" is false. Even if you hire enough people and equipment, construction will get in its own way (e.g. Deliveries can't be made if all the streets are dug up.) What do you think?", "timestamp": "1494075927"}, {"author": "Jeremy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870270598622&reply_comment_id=870271511792", "anchor": "fb-870270598622_870271511792", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Oops, was typing my post before I saw yours. Yep, I think this is the basic problem.", "timestamp": "1494076573"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870270598622&reply_comment_id=870284555652", "anchor": "fb-870270598622_870284555652", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Deliveries all ahead of time. You know what you're going to need.", "timestamp": "1494081389"}, {"author": "Jess", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870270598622&reply_comment_id=870285608542", "anchor": "fb-870270598622_870285608542", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Disagree, Jeff. Even the best-planned construction projects are hampered by lack of accurate information and inability to foresee broken tools, etc. Also, the actual workers need to arrive and leave each day.
I think delivery is a managable issue with this sort of plan, but it's non-trivial.", "timestamp": "1494081822"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870270598622&reply_comment_id=870285763232", "anchor": "fb-870270598622_870285763232", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Workers live on site in temporary housing", "timestamp": "1494081872"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870270598622&reply_comment_id=870285783192", "anchor": "fb-870270598622_870285783192", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Broken tools etc are low enough volume to figure out", "timestamp": "1494081901"}, {"author": "Gawain", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870270598622&reply_comment_id=870285897962", "anchor": "fb-870270598622_870285897962", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Deliveries were just an example. Where do you store stuff if the work is happening everywhere? All the dirt?
Are we talking about replacing only underground gas/electric/water or also digging new subway tunnels,etc? You need a way to move supplies during the project. Also, where would the temporary housing be if this is on a city-wide scale?", "timestamp": "1494081941"}, {"author": "Jeremy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870270598622&reply_comment_id=870286012732", "anchor": "fb-870270598622_870286012732", "service": "fb", "text": "→ But even in this, installing temporary housing, electricity, water, etc, we are ending up talking about something that is hugely different than a single block. Beyond that we have the earth moving, which needs a repository and you can't simply put all the pipes, wires, etc, in the street before you dig it up.", "timestamp": "1494082046"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870270598622&reply_comment_id=870286551652", "anchor": "fb-870270598622_870286551652", "service": "fb", "text": "→ You don't have to dig up the full width of the street. You generally have for four lanes worth (two for traffic, two for parking) plus sidewalks and if needed people's driveways.", "timestamp": "1494082311"}, {"author": "Gawain", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870270598622&reply_comment_id=870286596562", "anchor": "fb-870270598622_870286596562", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman If you're removing existing infrastructure, I think you have to dig up the whole street and probably more.", "timestamp": "1494082345"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870270598622&reply_comment_id=870287589572", "anchor": "fb-870270598622_870287589572", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The goal isn't to remove existing infrastructure, it's to lay a full replacement", "timestamp": "1494082898"}, {"author": "Marcus", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870270598622&reply_comment_id=870307459752", "anchor": "fb-870270598622_870307459752", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Even if it is feasible, (which I'm not convinced), doing everything at once would certainly add costs. Since the whole point is to save money, it's hard to argue this is net win.
That being said, this kind of work could certainly be accelerated. It seems to take Somerville about two years to reconstruct a major street, which is ridiculously ponderous.", "timestamp": "1494089371"}, {"author": "Jeremy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870271441932", "anchor": "fb-870271441932", "service": "fb", "text": "I don't know much about this, but the thing that jumps out at me is your assumption that digging up all the blocks in a week is essentially the same as block in a week. When you are in this process, where do you plug in the lights and computers, fill up the tanks, pump water in hoses, or even manage driving equipment and people in and out?", "timestamp": "1494076534"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870271441932&reply_comment_id=870284450862", "anchor": "fb-870271441932_870284450862", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Lots and lots of temporary infrastructure. Grid temporary power from the existing poles in a different color or use generators. For water use portable tanks. On-site portable housing.", "timestamp": "1494081363"}, {"author": "Jeremy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870271441932&reply_comment_id=870296182352", "anchor": "fb-870271441932_870296182352", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Is portable tanks (delivered in advance) really feasible for this kind of project. Not just drinking water, but hydro cutting, concrete making, dust suppression, cleaning, etc?", "timestamp": "1494085772"}, {"author": "Jeremy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870272270272", "anchor": "fb-870272270272", "service": "fb", "text": "I would add, what about people/things who cannot leave. Hospitals, retirement homes, zoos, aquariums, research facilities with ongoing experiments, sensitive or valuable locations/installments/etc, not to mention folks who just don't want to leave.", "timestamp": "1494076787"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870272270272&reply_comment_id=870284291182", "anchor": "fb-870272270272_870284291182", "service": "fb", "text": "→ It's like a hurricane. You tell people to leave, people who stay don't have electricity, gas, running water, police, fire, etc. Unlike a hurricane you give ten years of notice and pay people to be out of town.", "timestamp": "1494081201"}, {"author": "Jess", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870272270272&reply_comment_id=870286536682", "anchor": "fb-870272270272_870286536682", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Having lived in a small city (with a major hospital and an enormous national laboratory) when it was evacuated for a wildfire, I think this is surprisingly doable, especially with advance notice.", "timestamp": "1494082301"}, {"author": "Jess", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870272270272&reply_comment_id=870286756242", "anchor": "fb-870272270272_870286756242", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Also, silver lining, it was super awesome as a Mad Max dystopia experience. They did need the actual army, though.", "timestamp": "1494082406"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870275114572", "anchor": "fb-870275114572", "service": "fb", "text": "Also, how do you get enough power equipment in the region to dig up an entire city in a week?", "timestamp": "1494077883"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870275114572&reply_comment_id=870282399972", "anchor": "fb-870275114572_870282399972", "service": "fb", "text": "→ You have an enormous equipment+labor brigade that goes from city to city. Army scale.", "timestamp": "1494081084"}, {"author": "Jim", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870279286212", "anchor": "fb-870279286212", "service": "fb", "text": "This would make sense if the high price of infrastructure in the US were primarily about the difficulty of interfacing with existing infrastructure, but I don't think it is. Tunnel boring costs much more than cut-and-cover, yes, but US-tunnel-boring also costs much more than Europe-tunnel-boring, due to Baumol and corruption.", "timestamp": "1494079448"}, {"author": "Taymon", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870279286212&reply_comment_id=870281895982", "anchor": "fb-870279286212_870281895982", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Why would Baumol create differential price increases in the U.S. vs. Europe?", "timestamp": "1494080755"}, {"author": "Jim", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870279286212&reply_comment_id=870284286192", "anchor": "fb-870279286212_870284286192", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'm speculating, but my guess would be the financial sector, which consumes a considerably larger amount of human capital in the US than it does in other countries.", "timestamp": "1494081178"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870279286212&reply_comment_id=870284884992", "anchor": "fb-870279286212_870284884992", "service": "fb", "text": "→ By completely changing the approach here with a large scale team traveling around the country you get around existing corruption and favoritism by not using any local labor or equipment.", "timestamp": "1494081580"}, {"author": "Taymon", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870279286212&reply_comment_id=870315174292", "anchor": "fb-870279286212_870315174292", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jim: Is this a different hypothesis from \"the U.S. is much more economically productive per capita than Europe\"?
Jeff: That sounds inefficient. I think large traveling enterprises often locally source a lot of their labor and equipment because it decreases how much stuff they have to lug around. Of course, they'd do this with the more fungible resources that they need; I imagine some kinds of labor and equipment are the same everywhere and others are more specialized.", "timestamp": "1494092547"}, {"author": "Frederic", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870285927902", "anchor": "fb-870285927902", "service": "fb", "text": "There are always people who won't leave. I am not sure who would win in court.", "timestamp": "1494081976"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870285927902&reply_comment_id=870611520412", "anchor": "fb-870285927902_870611520412", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Taking it to court would add tremendous expense no matter who won...", "timestamp": "1494214017"}, {"author": "Jeremy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870286162432", "anchor": "fb-870286162432", "service": "fb", "text": "How is the economic impact of shutting down a whole city for a week measured?", "timestamp": "1494082148"}, {"author": "Jeremy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870286162432&reply_comment_id=870286631492", "anchor": "fb-870286162432_870286631492", "service": "fb", "text": "→ For example, the economic losses of businesses and transport shutting down in NYC during the January 2015 snowstorm were estimated at 6billion per day. What happens if weather, or other unforeseen circumstances arise and the project is delayed by days (or more) who would insure a project that would encompass an entire city?", "timestamp": "1494082359"}, {"author": "Jess", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870286162432&reply_comment_id=870287085582", "anchor": "fb-870286162432_870287085582", "service": "fb", "text": "→ What is NYC's infrastructure budget over a few decades? I bet $6B is peanuts, and significantly ameliorated by the advance warning not available on 9/11.", "timestamp": "1494082647"}, {"author": "Jeremy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870286162432&reply_comment_id=870287519712", "anchor": "fb-870286162432_870287519712", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Of course, however, it's just more differences from the 1,000 blocks=1block*1000 equation.", "timestamp": "1494082849"}, {"author": "Jess", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870286162432&reply_comment_id=870288672402", "anchor": "fb-870286162432_870288672402", "service": "fb", "text": "→ For massive places like NYC you would do it more granularly (borough by borough at the most). For reference, NYC spends $10B/year on capital expenditures. Not sure how much is spent on non-bridge roads https://comptroller.nyc.gov/.../fiscal-year-2017-annual.../", "timestamp": "1494083464"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870286162432&reply_comment_id=870289306132", "anchor": "fb-870286162432_870289306132", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'm not sure this works at all for NYC; thinking more about small and mid sized cities.", "timestamp": "1494083770"}, {"author": "Sonja", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870286162432&reply_comment_id=870396591132", "anchor": "fb-870286162432_870396591132", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I managed the budget for NYC's road reconstruction projects for several years. A decade of road reconstruction is about $2B", "timestamp": "1494120541"}, {"author": "Sonja", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870286162432&reply_comment_id=870397783742", "anchor": "fb-870286162432_870397783742", "service": "fb", "text": "→ (Not on bridges)", "timestamp": "1494121197"}, {"author": "Jess", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870286162432&reply_comment_id=870398312682", "anchor": "fb-870286162432_870398312682", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sonja, is this just for repairing roads that have worn out, or does it include repairing damage done in the process of repairing water pipes and that sort of thing?", "timestamp": "1494121414"}, {"author": "Sonja", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870286162432&reply_comment_id=870405363552", "anchor": "fb-870286162432_870405363552", "service": "fb", "text": "→ This is for rebuilding roads that are being redesigned and rebuilding roads that are beyond surface repair, but not resurfacing or patching after other utility work.", "timestamp": "1494123357"}, {"author": "Forsythe", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870290977782", "anchor": "fb-870290977782", "service": "fb", "text": "I think that the assumption that replacing everything means that you don't have to care about what is there is erroneous. Take gaslines as the example. You have to make the new system connect to all of the existing buildings, which I can guarantee there are not cm-level accurate 3D underground maps for. How would doing everything at once fix the adaptation to what you find need?", "timestamp": "1494084809"}, {"author": "Gawain", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870290977782&reply_comment_id=870295867982", "anchor": "fb-870290977782_870295867982", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Okay how about we just level the whole city and start from the beginning. Can we build a new city in a week?", "timestamp": "1494085605"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870290977782&reply_comment_id=870322639332", "anchor": "fb-870290977782_870322639332", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Forsythe: you do have to care about what's there, but only partly. It's fine to disrupt everything as you go, so you don't need to be careful not to hit things as you dig, which speeds things up a lot. But you do need to see where the existing connections to buildings are so you can re-hook things up.", "timestamp": "1494095237"}, {"author": "Jeremy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870290977782&reply_comment_id=870326292012", "anchor": "fb-870290977782_870326292012", "service": "fb", "text": "→ We dig up a body, or artifacts. Suddenly everything is delayed for an archeological evaluation. What happens?", "timestamp": "1494096866"}, {"author": "Forsythe", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870290977782&reply_comment_id=870331935702", "anchor": "fb-870290977782_870331935702", "service": "fb", "text": "→ To what degree is the careful digging the rate limiting step presently? At the edges where you want to reconnect to existing connections to do have to be careful. If you twist the pipe that you need to connect to you'll cause additional work.", "timestamp": "1494099173"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870290977782&reply_comment_id=870335802952", "anchor": "fb-870290977782_870335802952", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeremy: we decide in advance that we're not going to stop if that happens", "timestamp": "1494100302"}, {"author": "Jeremy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870290977782&reply_comment_id=870335917722", "anchor": "fb-870290977782_870335917722", "service": "fb", "text": "→ That would involve changing a number of laws, doable, but there for reasons mostly", "timestamp": "1494100348"}, {"author": "Jeremy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870290977782&reply_comment_id=870336776002", "anchor": "fb-870290977782_870336776002", "service": "fb", "text": "→ As well as a certain amount of public opinion. Old cemeteries are found on a not irregular basis in large scale construction it seems. Many large construction companies hire archeological surveys in advance to try to make sure there isn't anything where they are digging, but it still happens", "timestamp": "1494100548"}, {"author": "Peter", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870325528542", "anchor": "fb-870325528542", "service": "fb", "text": "Digging up one street in a week may depend on being able to bring equipment/machinery/supplies in, and dirt out, on the streets surrounding it. If they're all dug up, how do you get the pipes you need into place?", "timestamp": "1494096620"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870325528542&reply_comment_id=870335638282", "anchor": "fb-870325528542_870335638282", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Equipment and supplies in before you dig", "timestamp": "1494100270"}, {"author": "Jim", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870325528542&reply_comment_id=870338926692", "anchor": "fb-870325528542_870338926692", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'm not sure there'd be enough space to store that much dirt on-site in many towns.", "timestamp": "1494101692"}, {"author": "Jeremy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870335353852", "anchor": "fb-870335353852", "service": "fb", "text": "Perhaps most troubling of all, what happens if there is a fire, and there are neither roads nor water mains? I would think that this issue alone would make the entire thing impossible, now that I think about it.", "timestamp": "1494100136"}, {"author": "Jim", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870335353852&reply_comment_id=870338911722", "anchor": "fb-870335353852_870338911722", "service": "fb", "text": "→ People being away reduces the risk. Also, firefighting helicopters are a thing and could be kept around.", "timestamp": "1494101648"}, {"author": "Jeremy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870335353852&reply_comment_id=870339280982", "anchor": "fb-870335353852_870339280982", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I don't really think that would cover it.
1. Copters are usually used in conjunction with ground support
2. Emptying the city would mean fires went undetected for longer, spreading within buildings, in subways, etc for longer and growing bigger.
3. Yes it would mitigate risk, but I think that any insurance company would rightfully say \"no way are we gong to cover this\". (Even just to property)
4. Arson, terrorism, and other risks. Empty the city of everything but construction workers, take away transportation, water, electricity, etc. seems like a pretty easy target.
5. Fire being one risk, but what happens when there a hurricane, huge rainstorm, earthquake etc strikes when all the roads are dug up and the infrastructure is gutted?
No, most times it is fine, but neither government nor insurance tends to tolerate much risk.", "timestamp": "1494102022"}, {"author": "Jess", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870335353852&reply_comment_id=870371032352", "anchor": "fb-870335353852_870371032352", "service": "fb", "text": "→ FYI, when the government ordered our town to evacuate for a wildfire, they set up check points at all entrances and exits and then went house to house flushing people out. Anyone who wanted to stay had to register with the police. There was a ton of officers. It was harder to steal something then than on a normal day. You're very conspicuous walking around a deserted town.", "timestamp": "1494108685"}, {"author": "Sonja", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702", "anchor": "fb-870340917702", "service": "fb", "text": "Not a chance. This is exactly my area of expertise and I'd be happy to answer questions about it if you have specific questions.", "timestamp": "1494102702"}, {"author": "Jeremy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870341057422", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870341057422", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Ha, I was just thinking about tagging to ask you your thoughts! I'd be curious to know the main reasons you say that!", "timestamp": "1494102744"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870356945582", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870356945582", "service": "fb", "text": "→ What aspect is most unrealistic?", "timestamp": "1494103578"}, {"author": "Sonja", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870357314842", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870357314842", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think the staging issue is the hardest to wrap my head around. Also, you are assuming that a city knows what infrastructure is where underground, and that is really not true, even when using ground-penetrating radar.", "timestamp": "1494103714"}, {"author": "Zera", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870364610222", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870364610222", "service": "fb", "text": "→ So you're saying it would take longer, yes? How much? For just one block.", "timestamp": "1494106211"}, {"author": "Zera", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870364630182", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870364630182", "service": "fb", "text": "→ And then if that one block isn't scalable to multiple blocks at once, why wouldn't it be?", "timestamp": "1494106233"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870369929562", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870369929562", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sonja: \"you are assuming that a city knows what infrastructure is where underground\"
The idea with doing everything at once is then you don't have to know where any existing underground infrastructure is. You turn everything off, and then lay new everything.", "timestamp": "1494107989"}, {"author": "Sonja", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870370708002", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870370708002", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Alexander , the problem isn't with the one week for a block timeframe, although I imagine if you got everyone on the same page that might be possible, it's the scaling itself that's a problem", "timestamp": "1494108517"}, {"author": "Sonja", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870371022372", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870371022372", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman where do you dig if you don't know where the infrastructure is? Where do you stage materials and equipment if you just dig everywhere?", "timestamp": "1494108675"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870371057302", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870371057302", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Sonja: the goal isn't to dig up the old infrastructure, it's to lay new infrastructure as if the old stuff isn't even there", "timestamp": "1494108710"}, {"author": "Jeremy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870371142132", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870371142132", "service": "fb", "text": "→ But it is though... unless you are just planning on dynamiting thr whole thing, it seems like pipes are different to dig than dirt which is different than tunnels.", "timestamp": "1494108812"}, {"author": "Sonja", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870371411592", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870371411592", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman working around the existing infrastructure would be a serious challenge too, there's a limited amount of space (at a reasonable depth) under the street and in any future repairs it will be really challenging to figure out what is current and what is old infrastructure. If you simply stop maintaining pipes and leave them in, you'll have cave-ins, which are dangerous.", "timestamp": "1494108944"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870371421572", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870371421572", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Jeremy: Sure, but sand is different from rocks when you're digging too. My understanding is the hard part about digging with existing infrastructure is not damaging it; digging/cutting through it isn't so hard. (You do need to know where tunnels are, but we generally do)", "timestamp": "1494108947"}, {"author": "Sonja", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870371506402", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870371506402", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Not to mention old pipes that fill with gas and explode, which is also a thing that happens.", "timestamp": "1494109023"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870371561292", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870371561292", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sonja: \"in any future repairs it will be really challenging to figure out what is current and what is old infrastructure\"
Make the new stuff a different color?
\"If you simply stop maintaining pipes and leave them in, you'll have cave-ins, which are dangerous.\"
Ok, that's key. But I thought in old cities there were generally lots of old pipes that people had forgotten were still there and were completely unmaintained?", "timestamp": "1494109075"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870371805802", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870371805802", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sonja: \"old pipes that fill with gas and explode\"
Yikes! Where does the gas come from?", "timestamp": "1494109097"}, {"author": "Sonja", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870372030352", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870372030352", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The new color is a good idea, but it impacts your entire supply chain, which is already going to be stressed by the huge order of materials.", "timestamp": "1494109207"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870372160092", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870372160092", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Sonja: \"already going to be stressed by the huge order of materials\"
The whole thing would be huge; you'd plan it years and years in advance", "timestamp": "1494109272"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870372224962", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870372224962", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sonja: I'm trying to read about the hazards of unmaintained pipes, and I think I'm not finding the right search terms? I'm seeing stuff like http://pix11.com/.../steam-pipe-problems-spur-street.../ but this is because the pipe was unmaintained while still in use I think?", "timestamp": "1494109311"}, {"author": "Sonja", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870372788832", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870372788832", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Re: old pipes, yes there are a lot of them already there, but it seems like bad planning to just accept that because in the past we haven't sufficiently shored up roadways we're going to do that everywhere in the city", "timestamp": "1494109436"}, {"author": "Jeremy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870372853702", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870372853702", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sonja, can you say more about the staging side of things as well? I'd be interested to know what you meant there too", "timestamp": "1494109498"}, {"author": "Sonja", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870374859682", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870374859682", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeremy yes, when you're tearing up the roadway you need to be able to haul away debris and store new materials that you'll use to build out the new infrastructure and cover it over. I saw Jeff argue in a different comment that they won't need to dig up the entirety of the roadway so they can store materials on an unused lane, but there are a bunch of issues with that. If you're going to be tearing out old infrastructure, you don't really know where all of it is, so you won't know which lanes are okay to store things on. Some materials, like concrete, are time sensitive from mixing to use, so you can't just store it on site. Also, digging up only a portion of the roadway undermines the roadbed (the concrete layer underneath the asphalt) and shortens its useful life.", "timestamp": "1494109916"}, {"author": "Sonja", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870375328742", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870375328742", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I guess maybe you could fly everything in by helicopter, but then we're really using magical thinking.", "timestamp": "1494110186"}, {"author": "Sonja", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870375852692", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870375852692", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Okay, I need to go write a chapter of my thesis, but I can come back and give you more reasons this won't work when I'm done :)", "timestamp": "1494110562"}, {"author": "Sonja", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870386162032", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870386162032", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Okay, I'm taking a break, let's see what other piece of this to tackle next", "timestamp": "1494116519"}, {"author": "Sonja", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870388911522", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870388911522", "service": "fb", "text": "→ So, say we've solved the issue of staging by flying everything in by helicopter, and we have specially-outiftted concrete mixer helicopters too, and we've decided we're going to dig up and rebuild the full width of every street because we want have complete, uncompromised foundations. In that case, we'll need to redesign all the roads too, because the city has upgraded their design standards since the roads were rebuilt last and you're not going to rip out and replace things that you know are unsafe. So in addition to engineering the underground component, you'll need traffic engineers for the above ground component. In that case, we're going to need a lot more engineers. (And city planners, ahem.) It's not a particularly flush time for these professions, but we are still probably near full employment for highly-trained specialized people in professions like that. You've tried convincing all of the engineers in the rest of the country to stop working on their projects and do work for this one city, and (most of) the other cities have refused to give up their workforce. You realize that you need a substantial increase in total number of engineers in order to have enough to work on this project, and you're going to have to develop that pipeline. It's not like there are engineering schools sitting empty waiting to be filled up with students, so you go ahead and found the Jeff Kaufman School of Engineering, City Planning, and Other Road Reconstruction Professions, and get to work recruiting people to join.", "timestamp": "1494117500"}, {"author": "Sonja", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=870389250842", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_870389250842", "service": "fb", "text": "→ ...please hold while I work on my thesis...", "timestamp": "1494117710"}, {"author": "Peter", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870340917702&reply_comment_id=874721953072", "anchor": "fb-870340917702_874721953072", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman http://www.coloradoan.com/.../cut-abandoned.../309230001/", "timestamp": "1495689149"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870342529472", "anchor": "fb-870342529472", "service": "fb", "text": "While you're at it, you can reposition all the fire hydrants to rationalized locations to maximize parking spots. Even though you specified a small city, do it now while you can!", "timestamp": "1494103286"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870369924572", "anchor": "fb-870369924572", "service": "fb", "text": "It's been done, and successfully, by adding depth on the roads rather than digging under the roads. I heard the story a bit differently from what is described in this link. I understood that many buildings were left intact, but the second floor became the first floor when the roads were raised. Unclear whether that happened in some cases, while the process mentioned in this link where buildings were actually jacked up happened in other cases.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_of_Chicago", "timestamp": "1494107982"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=870453921242", "anchor": "fb-870453921242", "service": "fb", "text": "Doesn't the oil industry have this problem figured out already? Granted, you have to hire competent people, but oil prices are still less than $50/barrel", "timestamp": "1494150317"}, {"author": "Eli", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/870267699432?comment_id=874702037982", "anchor": "fb-874702037982", "service": "fb", "text": "Related: https://www.ny.gov/content/mta-genius-transit-challenge", "timestamp": "1495682170"}]}