{"items": [{"author": "Richard", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150233227941213", "anchor": "fb-10150233227941213", "service": "fb", "text": "Hi Jeff. Related to this, you might want to check this page out, if you don't already know it: http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austheir.html#X1x", "timestamp": "1311110515"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150233312946213", "anchor": "fb-10150233312946213", "service": "fb", "text": "@Richard: the author actually objects to precisely this usage: \"Where singular 'their' cannot be used is when referring to a strongly-individualized single person about whom there is some specific information\" and gives the example of \"Chris ... they ...\".", "timestamp": "1311118670"}, {"author": "Margaret", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150233322766213", "anchor": "fb-10150233322766213", "service": "fb", "text": "What happens when I do things in your feed? facebook doesn't know my gender.", "timestamp": "1311119991"}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1311121031600", "service": "gp", "text": "I'm amused by the way Isotropic Dominion does this, referring to \"the deck\" and \"the hand\" rather than \"her deck\" or \"his hand\".", "timestamp": 1311121031}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150233341066213", "anchor": "fb-10150233341066213", "service": "fb", "text": "@Mog: I don't see anything from you using pronouns. Maybe facebook has figured pronounless alternate wordings for everything?", "timestamp": "1311121811"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150233342021213", "anchor": "fb-10150233342021213", "service": "fb", "text": "@Mog: actually, I do see \"Margaret changed their profile picture\" from the beginning of may", "timestamp": "1311121918"}, {"author": "Margaret", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150233342146213", "anchor": "fb-10150233342146213", "service": "fb", "text": "Oh, excellent.", "timestamp": "1311121932"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150233346296213", "anchor": "fb-10150233346296213", "service": "fb", "text": "They could rephrase as \"Margret has a new profile picture\" if they really want to get rid of the pronouns.", "timestamp": "1311122398"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1311122763044", "service": "gp", "text": "@Josh: that doesn't feel so weird to me, but I think learning spanish at a young age where that is standard might be polluting my nesi.", "timestamp": 1311122763}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1311122821148", "service": "gp", "text": "Over on facebook mog pointed out that facebook is still using singular they for people it doesn't know the gender of for a few kinds of updates, including at least profile picture changes.", "timestamp": 1311122821}, {"author": "Margaret", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150233350901213", "anchor": "fb-10150233350901213", "service": "fb", "text": "I wonder why facebook is so wedded to pronouns.", "timestamp": "1311122882"}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1311122908485", "service": "gp", "text": "Ja, I think it's not that weird; it feels a little awkward or stilted, but not appallingly so.", "timestamp": 1311122908}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150233354141213", "anchor": "fb-10150233354141213", "service": "fb", "text": "@Mog: they claimed (in 2008) that they needed gender from everyone so they could do proper translation into languages that require it. Once you have everyone's gender, might as well use pronouns.", "timestamp": "1311123227"}, {"author": "Margaret", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150233358521213", "anchor": "fb-10150233358521213", "service": "fb", "text": "But gender and pronouns don't correlate, sometimes. ...never mind.", "timestamp": "1311123781"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150233359441213", "anchor": "fb-10150233359441213", "service": "fb", "text": "@Mog: I would think gender and pronouns do correlate -- most of the time you will see male pronouns used with people who identify as male and female with people who identify as female. Isn't that correlation? Or are you using a specialized meaning of the term?", "timestamp": "1311123929"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150233393286213", "anchor": "fb-10150233393286213", "service": "fb", "text": "I love pronouns so much I wedded them.", "timestamp": "1311128024"}, {"author": "BDan", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103775592027106438640", "anchor": "gp-1311141142632", "service": "gp", "text": "I've never told Facebook my gender, either, though the only way I was able to get it stop bugging me to set one was by switching to a language without grammatical gender (Hungarian) for a while and then switching back to English. I'm glad that Google is now actually offering the option to keep gender private, though.", "timestamp": 1311141142}, {"author": "BDan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150233512811213", "anchor": "fb-10150233512811213", "service": "fb", "text": "I think what Mog was trying to say is that the correlation is not 100%. Which is precisely the problem with Facebook's approach.
I don't believe that they actually cared about translation, though, since the thing that got them to stop asking me for my gender all the time was changing my own display language to Hungarian (which has no grammatical gender), even though all of my friends were still seeing my updates in English.", "timestamp": "1311144145"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150234460526213", "anchor": "fb-10150234460526213", "service": "fb", "text": "RIchard: that link convinced me far better than Jeff's insistence. Thank you.", "timestamp": "1311258807"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150237004081213", "anchor": "fb-10150237004081213", "service": "fb", "text": "Pronouns are difficult when it comes to people whose gender isn't \"male\" or \"female\". Even singular 'they' (some people's preferred choice) has difficulties (as evidenced by the grammatical rules in Richard's link).", "timestamp": "1311562108"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150237212446213", "anchor": "fb-10150237212446213", "service": "fb", "text": "@David: facebook and google use singular they in all constructions, most notably with a named referent. Might this help lead to people accepting those constructions, until we have a first class ungendered singular pronoun?", "timestamp": "1311593849"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150237371041213", "anchor": "fb-10150237371041213", "service": "fb", "text": "Sure, it seems like that could only help. Are you thinking this will help 'they' become a first class ungendered singular pronoun? Are just lead to more acceptance of constructions like the ones we need?", "timestamp": "1311610432"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150237375276213", "anchor": "fb-10150237375276213", "service": "fb", "text": "The former.", "timestamp": "1311610826"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150237380906213", "anchor": "fb-10150237380906213", "service": "fb", "text": "Yeah, I think we could possibly get there. Right now 'they' is really problematic for this purpose, though -- the grammtical rules Richard pointed to make it feel 'dehumanizing' (which is a danger for trans people anyway).", "timestamp": "1311611405"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150237386271213", "anchor": "fb-10150237386271213", "service": "fb", "text": "I see how \"it\" is dehumanizing in that it is a pronoun only used for non-humans, but how is \"they\" dehumanizing?", "timestamp": "1311612008"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150237401221213", "anchor": "fb-10150237401221213", "service": "fb", "text": "I think the fact that it's for people who are 'generic' / 'unknown' / etc. gives it that.", "timestamp": "1311613234"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150237413286213", "anchor": "fb-10150237413286213", "service": "fb", "text": "@David: singular they can be grammatically (to me and some other people) used for known ungeneric people, as long as their gender is unimportant. For example: \"my boss said they liked my shirt.\" Named referents (\"john said they liked my shirt\") or explicitly gendered individual referents (\"my mother said they liked my shirt\") aren't grammatical to me (yet?). Explicitly gendered indeterminate references are grammatical to me, though: \"one of the boys said they liked my shirt\".
There are a bunch of people who reject singular they for all known referents (including \"my boss said ...\", \"a coworker said ...\") and all gendered referents (including \"one of the boys said ...\").
So I do see what you're saying, that singular they, especially in some people's usage, is used entirely or primarily to refer to generic or unknown individuals.
On the other hand, when g+/fb says \"john changed their profile picture\" I doubt people are thinking this makes john less of a person. People find it confusing, ungrammatical, misleading (who is 'their' about? It can't be john). But once they understand what facebook is doing, don't they just think \"it's saying something weird because it doesn't know john's gender\".
Lots of cis people are not telling g+ their gender or are marking their gender as limited visibility for safety, privacy, or other reasons. So lots of other people will see lots of auto-generated updates using 'they' for cis people, and 'they' won't be limited to people who have trouble identifying with a single gender.", "timestamp": "1311614586"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/singular-they-and-social-networking-google-plus/10150233215001213/?comment_id=10150237417511213", "anchor": "fb-10150237417511213", "service": "fb", "text": "Yep--I definitely agree that this usage in g+/fb will help. I just wanted to state the present difficulty is with 'they'.", "timestamp": "1311614974"}]}