{"items": [{"author": "MonkAndCanatella", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4re64b", "anchor": "r-c4re64b", "service": "r", "text": "Only got %50! Some more diverse examples would be helpful though, I could barely hear the piano in the first place.\n", "timestamp": 1337783076}, {"author": "OnaZ", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4recvu", "anchor": "r-c4recvu", "service": "r", "text": "Very interesting post, I got 7/12 right. A few comments:\n\n\n
Both pianos come off as having that amplified piano sound which makes me wonder how the acoustic piano was miked.\n
The piano was often buried in the mix compared with the violin which made it harder to hear.\n
This type of repertoire doesn't take full advantage of the range of the piano. We get a lot of short choppy chords instead of something that would show off more of the piano.\n
Keyboards often have trouble matching the dynamic range and overall thickness of sound of an acoustic piano, so a song that employes more dynamic contrast may make it easier to detect the keyboard versus the piano.\n\n\n
If you are the Jeff of this blog, I'd love to see future tests like this.\n", "timestamp": 1337784021}, {"author": "babyzeeps", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rki53", "anchor": "r-c4rki53", "service": "r", "text": "→ I came here to basically say all of this. Another problem with keyboards is even the most amazing high-end keyboards cannot replicate the feeling of a piano. I have played several very high end keyboards, and it just isn't the same. There are a thousand different sounds you can get by striking a key at the same volume, but the sensors on a keyboard just aren't good enough to detect that, and I don't think they ever will.\n\n
There's just magic in an acoustic piano that cannot be replicated digitally.\n", "timestamp": 1337810759}, {"author": "Rhapsodie", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rlapm", "anchor": "r-c4rlapm", "service": "r", "text": "→ → I love my Casio Privia like anyone else, it's an excellent practice instrument, but I still recognize the differences, I wouldn't say faults, of digital pianos, regardless of a blind test.\n\n
Other frontiers the digital piano has, there's the inimitable imperfections (the character of a given instrument, e.g. growly steinway vs. bright fazioli, idiosyncrasies of a single instrument--no two pianos are the same, that we'll lose if digital pianos somehow replace acoustic, they'll all be perfect) and the 3-dimensionality (the bass strings are, what, 3-4 feet from the treble?), and a digital piano has far to go before it can deal with advanced pedal technique\u2014I've yet to see one that can emulate quarter/half pedaling, pedal vibrato, or holding down a chord silently to get the sympathetic vibrations etc., and this isn't even considered "extended technique", this is pretty standard fare for late Romantics/Impressionism.\n\n
But anyways, isn't this just like the electric violin/stradi test and new Cali/aged French wine tasting? The connoisseurs get them wrong 50% of the time anyways?\n", "timestamp": 1337814446}, {"author": "babyzeeps", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rlcq6", "anchor": "r-c4rlcq6", "service": "r", "text": "→ → → There are some recordings where you cannot tell the difference. That is because the electric piano is "tuned" (for lack of a better word) for the style. However, I think if you were to take the electric piano in the test recording and play a rachmaninov piece instead of the fiddle music, even an untrained ear could find the differences without a problem.\n\n
edit for clarity\n", "timestamp": 1337814717}, {"author": "Rhapsodie", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rlfkn", "anchor": "r-c4rlfkn", "service": "r", "text": "→ → → → Yes. I haven't bothered to look at the test since I'm not interested nor sure of the utility of it (it doesn't follow that, just because people get some wrong on this test, then "keyboards sound just as good as pianos") for exactly the reasons you stated.\n", "timestamp": 1337815102}, {"author": "cbr", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rlgg5", "anchor": "r-c4rlgg5", "service": "r", "text": "→ → → → What do you mean "tuned for the style"? Just that it happens to be a good fit for fiddle music?\n\n
(It's on it's default setting.)\n", "timestamp": 1337815220}, {"author": "babyzeeps", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rlmyp", "anchor": "r-c4rlmyp", "service": "r", "text": "→ → → → → Yeah like the tone quality of the piano is ideal for the type of music. The thing is, the tone is static. If you were to play something like a rachmaninov, chopin, or something else from the romantic/20th century era, you would need to be able to have a broader range of tone. It's very difficult to explain with words, but its something you can definitely hear.\n", "timestamp": 1337816099}, {"author": "cbr", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rlnjv", "anchor": "r-c4rlnjv", "service": "r", "text": "→ \n
wonder how the acoustic piano was miked\n\n\n
If I remember correctly the top was open about 2 feet and there was a single mic on a boom stand, probably an sm57, pointing in at an angle. I wasn't running sound.\n\n\n
The piano was often buried in the mix compared with the violin which made it harder to hear ... This type of repertoire doesn't take full advantage of the range of the piano ... more dynamic contrast\n\n\n
In this sort of music that's generally where the piano is and what it does. That does make this test less generally applicable, though.\n\n\n
I'd love to see future tests like this\n\n\n
I record most of our gigs, and they're a mix between ones where the venue has a piano and where we bring my keyboard, so I definitely could post more some time. It's tricky though because I want to be fair and most of the real pianos we play with aren't very good. (Often they're bad enough that we use my keyboard anyway.)\n\n
I did do a vaguely similar test on mandolin microphone placement.\n", "timestamp": 1337816176}, {"author": "OnaZ", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rmp4f", "anchor": "r-c4rmp4f", "service": "r", "text": "→ → SM57? I thought you were supposed to use nice condenser mics for pianos.\n", "timestamp": 1337821289}, {"author": "cbr", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rn3os", "anchor": "r-c4rn3os", "service": "r", "text": "→ → → On a chaotic stage in a noisy dance hall the durability and cost of dynamic mics generally outweighs the marginally better sound quality of condenser mics. There is a difference, and you'd hear it in a recording, but I don't think it's very noticeable in the hall.\n", "timestamp": 1337823300}, {"author": "shakyjellyfish", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4red02", "anchor": "r-c4red02", "service": "r", "text": "Because these are recorded examples, the sound of the keyboard and the piano will be similar. After all, a keyboard uses piano recordings that were deemed high quality, not necessarily a piano that sounds good, so it makes sense for the keyboard recording to sound better. Hearing a piano and a keyboard in real life is always, in my opinion, pretty easily distinguishable. \n", "timestamp": 1337784037}, {"author": "cbr", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rlhj5", "anchor": "r-c4rlhj5", "service": "r", "text": "→ In this environment, a big dance hall, almost everyone is hearing just the amplified sound. There are definitely other environments where people will be hearing it mostly (or entirely) acoustically.\n", "timestamp": 1337815369}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/461256387233115?comment_id=461294907229263", "anchor": "fb-461294907229263", "service": "fb", "text": "I got 10/12 correct and had question marks next to both one the ones I got wrong.
I think we can talk about the semantics of the phrase \"sounds better\" a lot here. I agree that the real piano sounds better in that its tone is more pleasing to me, and real pianos are certainly a hell of a lot more fun to play. I also agree that the keyboard sounds better in that its tone is more predictable and even and clear in the different registers pianists play in.
At the bottom line: I'd rather listen to a real piano in a concert, because it has more depth and beauty of tone, and the players have more room to express themselves. I'd rather listen to a keyboard while dancing, because the chances are much better that I'll be able to hear all the notes from the back of the hall and that there won't be a ton of room noise and bleed in the piano notes that are far away from the mics.", "timestamp": "1337785312"}, {"author": "Peter", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103618186481362054522", "anchor": "gp-1337785800779", "service": "gp", "text": "At a dance with live music, there's another big consideration. Pianos are loud enough that they don't need amplification in a small hall, even for dancing. Therefore, in a larger hall, a sizable area near the piano doesn't really need it to be amplified, while the rest of the hall does and therefore the balance is really different throughout the hall. I find this issue particularly troublesome in C# at Pinewoods. Not having this problem, using an electronic keyboard may make the overall sound better for more of the dancers.", "timestamp": 1337785800}, {"author": "DarthRiven", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rexfu", "anchor": "r-c4rexfu", "service": "r", "text": "Yeeeeah sorry, got 11/12 (some of the samples you could barely hear the piano) and I prefer the piano by a rather large margin. Kudos to the test though, very interesting stuff.\n", "timestamp": 1337786733}, {"author": "[deleted]", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rfhhe", "anchor": "r-c4rfhhe", "service": "r", "text": "It's not only about how it sounds, but importantly, about how it feels. A keyboard will never give you the range, feeling, and control of a piano\n", "timestamp": 1337789257}, {"author": "cbr", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rlokz", "anchor": "r-c4rlokz", "service": "r", "text": "→ It is definitely nicer to play a real piano. But if you're playing to make dancers happy, which we are, the main thing is how it sounds.\n\n
(If you want to say that playing a keyboard makes the musician less happy and so the music is worse, that's a claim about how it sounds and should show up in the recordings.)\n", "timestamp": 1337816309}, {"author": "[deleted]", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rm9cx", "anchor": "r-c4rm9cx", "service": "r", "text": "→ → Very true! I did not know the context. If it is just for listening and people dancing, a keyboard is great!\n", "timestamp": 1337819143}, {"author": "Robincognito", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rfjge", "anchor": "r-c4rfjge", "service": "r", "text": "10/12. Admittedly, I had to guess for a couple where the piano was quieter, but in other cases it was very obvious. The keyboard had that typical "mellow" sound which is easy to identify.\n", "timestamp": 1337789511}, {"author": "TTTA", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rfr4m", "anchor": "r-c4rfr4m", "service": "r", "text": "I noticed that for recordings of the piano, it took me a while to guess, but when it was a recording of a keyboard I immediately able to identify it as a keyboard.\n\n
I listen to piano music on Pandora a lot. I am able to identify when recordings were made on a keyboard on a fairly regular basis, and it annoys me to no end. The keyboards just don't have the warmth and layers and layers of overtones that a real grand piano has.\n", "timestamp": 1337790511}, {"author": "George", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/461256387233115?comment_id=461384357220318", "anchor": "fb-461384357220318", "service": "fb", "text": "I think the best digital pianos sound a lot better than many acoustic pianos, but the very nicest acoustic pianos can sound the best. Also, if the P85 is what I am thinking it is, it has nicer touch and subtlety of sound than the vast majority of acoustic pianos. Although the best acoustic pianos I have played are better, but they typically cost more than ten times as much.", "timestamp": "1337791633"}, {"author": "reddell", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rg1ig", "anchor": "r-c4rg1ig", "service": "r", "text": "I do, but recording a piano and listening to a digital representation of it is not the same as being in the same room as the piano, so I don't know if this is the best way to test that.\n", "timestamp": 1337791801}, {"author": "Fillanzea", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rh2sa", "anchor": "r-c4rh2sa", "service": "r", "text": "I have the same keyboard, a Yamaha P85, and I... can believe, theoretically, that I could mistake it for an acoustic in certain situations where there's not a lot of dynamic contrast. But trying to negotiate all of the subtleties from pianissimo to fortissimo? There may be some keyboards that are up to that, but the P85 isn't.\n", "timestamp": 1337796298}, {"author": "Jerome", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/461256387233115?comment_id=461444803880940", "anchor": "fb-461444803880940", "service": "fb", "text": "Thanks for putting together what turned out to be an interesting exercise. I scored 8/12, but like Hollis was uncertain about the ones I got wrong.", "timestamp": "1337797888"}, {"author": "Jerome", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/461256387233115?comment_id=461453250546762", "anchor": "fb-461453250546762", "service": "fb", "text": "I think, too, that it is worth distinguishing between being able to distinguish the sound of a keyboard vs. a real piano and one being better than the other. Where I felt certain and was correct, I could clearly make out a brighter, more percussive sound from the keyboard. I could, if you're interested, comment on some of the specific samples, but I don't want to spoil it for people who want to test their own ears.
It also does depend on how the piano is being used. As primarily a Scottish and English player, where the piano takes melody more often than in contra, I think it's easier to distinguish the two in, say, a piano solo strathspey.
I once received a CD from a local SCD band, The White Cockade, and was listening to it while driving. It took a while to tell, but by the end of the trip I was convinced that the piano on the CD was a keyboard. Googling the recording studio where the disc was made revealed that I was correct.", "timestamp": "1337798353"}, {"author": "Jerome", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/461256387233115?comment_id=461458803879540", "anchor": "fb-461458803879540", "service": "fb", "text": "As to whether one is better than the other -- I still maintain that a real piano is usually better, provided that it is in good tune and regulation. I've had to play pianos that were unplayably out of tune, or had keys that tended to stick at inopportune times. And I'd probably pick playing my Yamaha P120 over a ratty old spinet even if it were in tune. But a good piano offers nuances that a keyboard, even the best ones that have multiple samples per note based on the key velocity, cannot capture.
Another issue (besides touch) is that with an acoustic piano, even if the band needs to be amplified, the band itself can usually play acoustically, without monitors. I think this helps tremendously with balance, but that may just be me.", "timestamp": "1337798829"}, {"author": "Scott", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/461256387233115?comment_id=461464273878993", "anchor": "fb-461464273878993", "service": "fb", "text": "8/12", "timestamp": "1337799374"}, {"author": "mtVessel", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4ri90h", "anchor": "r-c4ri90h", "service": "r", "text": "I'm a Yamaha P200 owner and I love my keyboard but it will never rival a real piano for touch or sound. Oh, and I got 8/12, but so what? Most of these clips barely touched the piano's range, and the instrument was buried in the mix. I'd love to try an A/B test with solo piano clips of greater diversity. I can't imagine I'd ever prefer a fake.\n", "timestamp": 1337801234}, {"author": "Mark", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/461256387233115?comment_id=461495300542557", "anchor": "fb-461495300542557", "service": "fb", "text": "8/12 here too (1,4,8,11 wrong). I think some of the subtleties of the differences may be lost in the MP3 compression - do you have uncompressed versions of these?", "timestamp": "1337802714"}, {"author": "aplen22", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rjcjf", "anchor": "r-c4rjcjf", "service": "r", "text": "Couldn't hear the nuances of the piano over that damn fiddle. You CAN tell the difference if you just listen to a piano on it's own.\n", "timestamp": 1337805781}, {"author": "cbr", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rljsg", "anchor": "r-c4rljsg", "service": "r", "text": "→ That's what the dancers will hear. In this style of music the piano pretty much never plays on its own.\n", "timestamp": 1337815672}, {"author": "[deleted]", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rw7y3", "anchor": "r-c4rw7y3", "service": "r", "text": "→ → Then don't ask r/piano the very plain question of "do pianos generally sound better than keyboards?" If you're talking about a specific context, then mention that context in your title.\n", "timestamp": 1337880958}, {"author": "Launchywiggin", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rjclt", "anchor": "r-c4rjclt", "service": "r", "text": "Missing the point by using recordings. \n", "timestamp": 1337805789}, {"author": "cbr", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rlig6", "anchor": "r-c4rlig6", "service": "r", "text": "→ We play for dances in big halls where people will hear the piano coming out over the speakers. I agree that this test doesn't tell you much about situations where people hear the piano acoustically.\n\n
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KphO2Uja0t0\n", "timestamp": 1337815488}, {"author": "farfle10", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rmkf2", "anchor": "r-c4rmkf2", "service": "r", "text": "→ and it's funny because it's still pretty easy to pick out the fake ones even with piano being so quiet and surrounded by other instruments\n", "timestamp": 1337820634}, {"author": "cbr", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4s0rfx", "anchor": "r-c4s0rfx", "service": "r", "text": "→ → Lots of people seem to have gotten 8/12 or worse. I suspect there is some selection bias where people who did well are more likely to post while people who scored less than 50% less likely. So I don't think it's "pretty easy".\n", "timestamp": 1337900547}, {"author": "Jean", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/461256387233115?comment_id=461524540539633", "anchor": "fb-461524540539633", "service": "fb", "text": "8/12.", "timestamp": "1337805817"}, {"author": "Grezzz", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rjwps", "anchor": "r-c4rjwps", "service": "r", "text": "10 / 12 Correct.\n\n
I found it somewhat difficult with the violin being so overpowering. A large percentage of my decision making process was based on the volume and clearness of the pianos recording rather than which I thought sounded "better". It has to be much easier to record a clearer, louder, consistant sound from a keyboard than it is to mic up a real piano.\n\n
I would be interested in seeing a similar test with solo piano pieces, perhaps have the same piece played twice (once on each instrument) and listen for the difference.\n\n
Of course it also different greatly between different keyboards and pianos too.\n", "timestamp": 1337808136}, {"author": "[deleted]", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rljok", "anchor": "r-c4rljok", "service": "r", "text": "Hmm, I got 10/12 correct.\n\n
I have a P95, and I can say for a fact that it does not replicate the nuances of an acoustic piano well enough to pass as one. If this test had used solo piano pieces instead, I think the differences between the two would have been obvious.\n", "timestamp": 1337815657}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/461256387233115?comment_id=461618987196855", "anchor": "fb-461618987196855", "service": "fb", "text": "@Mark: sorry, I don't!", "timestamp": "1337816535"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/461256387233115?comment_id=461625683862852", "anchor": "fb-461625683862852", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jerome: \"with an acoustic piano, even if the band needs to be amplified, the band itself can usually play acoustically, without monitors. I think this helps tremendously with balance, but that may just be me\"
Sometimes this works well, but other times the piano will be too loud on stage with no way to turn it down. It varies.", "timestamp": "1337817480"}, {"author": "Knight_of_Malta", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4rly25", "anchor": "r-c4rly25", "service": "r", "text": "I can't hear the piano. Use something better.\n", "timestamp": 1337817600}, {"author": "Jerome", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/461256387233115?comment_id=461626837196070", "anchor": "fb-461626837196070", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, in that case, I would have to say that the pianist needs to pull back a notch. Judging this sort of thing is precisely what I find to be harder when a keyboard is involved.", "timestamp": "1337817636"}, {"author": "Julie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/461256387233115?comment_id=461684597190294", "anchor": "fb-461684597190294", "service": "fb", "text": "I hate them both. LOL", "timestamp": "1337824801"}, {"author": "lvm1357", "source_link": "http://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/u0ze0#c4s0hnn", "anchor": "r-c4s0hnn", "service": "r", "text": "Well, both of these are recorded piano sounds - so it would be hard to tell the difference by listening to a recording. To me, the main difference is in how the instrument feels, how responsive it is, and how much emotional expressiveness one can get out of it. Mind you, I can play with feeling on a keyboard, but it's a lot harder.\n", "timestamp": 1337899209}, {"author": "Max", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/461256387233115?comment_id=2079520968739974", "anchor": "fb-2079520968739974", "service": "fb", "text": "10/12 going with the strategy of not marking \"fake\" unless it was obvious, and it was obvious in 4 of them. No, mp3 compression is NOT an issue here at all; it has a very distinct type of distortion which wasn't present here. To be fair the piano is almost entirely drowned out by the violin, and maybe in 2012 it was hip to use crappy earbuds to listen to everything.
More importantly this is not a fair comparison; I know this is 5 years old, but the industry standard to use a huge # of samples per note and per velocity layer is a lot older than 5 years so there's no excuse for a performance-level \"digital piano\" not to contain at least the level of detail that a musical composer would use to make a fake piano sound real. There should be at least 20+ possible recordings per note; the one used in these recordings probably only had 3.
Come to think of it, I don't think any of the digital pianos in 2017 do that either, and it really boggles my mind as to why. Seems like even playing my shitty 49-key keyboard using the \"Imperfect Samples\" professional piano library will sound way more realistic than playing on a digital piano's default soundbank today. There is a lot of music today which uses fake pianos which sound completely real. The performance-oriented digital piano industry needs to catch up.", "timestamp": "1507234481"}]}