{"items": [{"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1526927703"}, {"author": "Erica", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942406572552&reply_comment_id=942406717262", "anchor": "fb-942406572552_942406717262", "service": "fb", "text": "→ At least in the SCA, global status isn't super relevant to local status. (except in extreme cases such as if you're homeless and poor you probably can't afford to do much SCA).", "timestamp": "1526927812"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1526927962"}, {"author": "Erica", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942406572552&reply_comment_id=942407630432", "anchor": "fb-942406572552_942407630432", "service": "fb", "text": "→ It would be mean if I posted pictures of unattractive people and said \"these people are super high status despite how they look and plus they're blue collar workers without a lot of money.\" But I could.
While there will always be some crossover, there definitely exist societies where your status consists mainly of of how well you do <x>, plus how much you contribute to the subculture.", "timestamp": "1526928363"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1526929104"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942406572552&reply_comment_id=942409217252", "anchor": "fb-942406572552_942409217252", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Elliot: \"every subculture they feel like entering\"
It can take a lot of work to enter a subculture. Your hypothetical 6 foot tall white guy isn't going to be all that popular in the fiddling world unless they put in lots of work learning to play fiddle very well.", "timestamp": "1526929129"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1526930503"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942406572552&reply_comment_id=942412336002", "anchor": "fb-942406572552_942412336002", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'm sure that's a factor, and another related bit is that smarter people are going to be able to pick up most activities (and style, jargon, and general culture) faster.
But the more work it takes to enter a subculture (at the extreme, where you have to be born into it) the less people with traits that give them high global status will be able to monopolize the high status positions in a bunch of subcultures.", "timestamp": "1526930758"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942406572552&reply_comment_id=942413104462", "anchor": "fb-942406572552_942413104462", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Also: since the status of a subculture depends heavily on the global status of the individuals in it, there's an additional affect where people are likely to be more welcoming to newcomers who would raise the group's global status.", "timestamp": "1526930898"}, {"author": "Erica", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942406582532", "anchor": "fb-942406582532", "service": "fb", "text": "They don't STACK, but I do think that being high status in a subculture does translate to some global status. For example, I'm not a birder, but I'd still convey some status to someone who was obviously a high status birder (ran birding groups? wrote birding books or apps? etc). And I'd convey some status even to an average birder, if the comparison is to \"Person with no hobbies nor social groups\"", "timestamp": "1526927714"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942406582532&reply_comment_id=942408573542", "anchor": "fb-942406582532_942408573542", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Yes, but this part still seems zero sum. Like, if we figured out how to make hobbies and distinct social groups more common, then being a high status glenter would be unusual at the ~1:25 level but not the ~1:25,000 level that being a high status birder currently is.", "timestamp": "1526928972"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942407306082", "anchor": "fb-942407306082", "service": "fb", "text": "Your picture seems wrong: Non-birders (resp. non-dancers) aren't on the birder (resp. dancer) status hierarchy at all.
When I think \"Am I low status or high status in this sub-culture?\" (or more commonly, when unconscious processes reflecting my status occur), I'm not thinking about how I'm \"high-status\" (in this subculture) than all the people who aren't in it at all. That doesn't make sense.", "timestamp": "1526928226"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942407306082&reply_comment_id=942408169352", "anchor": "fb-942407306082_942408169352", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I don't know, I feel like there's a sense in which, within the subcultures I'm in, all outsiders are somewhat lower status. Things like \"not being able to contra dance makes you much less attractive\".", "timestamp": "1526928726"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1526929360"}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942407306082&reply_comment_id=942446312912", "anchor": "fb-942407306082_942446312912", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman Even if you can anticipate that an outsider would have a low status if they showed up to a contra dance, isn't it only relevant if they actually do? At which point they are (perhaps temporarily) not fully an outsider.", "timestamp": "1526947925"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942407306082&reply_comment_id=942448952622", "anchor": "fb-942407306082_942448952622", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Todd it would definitely be a stronger effect at a dance, but for most of the subcultures I'm involved in there's a modest amount of feeling like our whole group is superior to normies.", "timestamp": "1526949288"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942407306082&reply_comment_id=942454122262", "anchor": "fb-942407306082_942454122262", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Hmm, Jeff, interesting that we're in so many of the same subcultures and I would have said my subcultures aren't really like that.
I think we might be conflating different ideas? It's probably true that status bears on whether I want to date someone, but someone not being a contra dancer (or in any of my other subcultures) seems like it contributes to \"we're in totally different worlds\", not \"I'm better than you\".", "timestamp": "1526952023"}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942407306082&reply_comment_id=942454875752", "anchor": "fb-942407306082_942454875752", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I do think that subcultures can consider themselves superior, but I think that's specific to the subculture, not something fundamental to subcultures in general", "timestamp": "1526952388"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942407306082&reply_comment_id=942454905692", "anchor": "fb-942407306082_942454905692", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Evidence for my position: When someone is very high status within a subculture that I'm not part of, I get a \"you're better than me\" feeling.
I guess you could say their subculture status is conferring some general purpose status, but I dunno.", "timestamp": "1526952419"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942407306082&reply_comment_id=942459227032", "anchor": "fb-942407306082_942459227032", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Todd \"I do think that subcultures can consider themselves superior, but I think that's specific to the subculture, not something fundamental to subcultures in general\"
The key thing is, if a subculture can successfully consider itself superior, then that's enough to let us increase the amount of status benefit per capita", "timestamp": "1526954517"}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942407306082&reply_comment_id=942460624232", "anchor": "fb-942407306082_942460624232", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'm not convinced that the benefit of perceived superiority outweighs the cost (that being the negatives one might generally associate with people considering themselves superior), particularly given that the benefit seems pretty minor insofar as status within the group seems much more important.", "timestamp": "1526955191"}, {"author": "Jim", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942408304082", "anchor": "fb-942408304082", "service": "fb", "text": "> \"all the studies on this are correlational and they have trouble distinguishing things like \"feeling higher status makes you healthier\" and \"your higher status gets you better medical treatment\" etc.\"
The confounding is MUCH worse than that. Most people treat visible signs of health as visible signs of status, and as a result, changes in health directly cause changes in status.", "timestamp": "1526928781"}, {"author": "Brian", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/114156500057804356924", "anchor": "gp-1526949918081", "service": "gp", "text": "Another good example: high schools have multiple sports and clubs. Someone not good at one sport could do well in a different one. Or someone not into sports could do well in band or the drama club.\n
\n
\nSince some activities are higher-status than others, this only goes so far. Still, having multiple ways to win is a good thing.", "timestamp": 1526949918}, {"author": "Ben", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942465409642", "anchor": "fb-942465409642", "service": "fb", "text": "I don't think the benefits of being in a subculture are within-group status ranking, but rather as giving a rally point for community. People like being in groups where everyone is in the same footing, and there tends to be a flattening of interpersonal status and a desire for inclusiveness. When a subculture gets obsessed with a pecking order, it's going to lose its effectiveness", "timestamp": "1526957885"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1526958221"}, {"author": "Ben", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942465409642&reply_comment_id=942467530392", "anchor": "fb-942465409642_942467530392", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think there are many such effective communities - music/dance communities, religious communities, etc. When elitism creeps in and the community stops being a fulfilling place, the groups can course correct or splinter", "timestamp": "1526959158"}, {"author": "Jacob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942465409642&reply_comment_id=942596541852", "anchor": "fb-942465409642_942596541852", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I doubt that there has ever been a religious community with more than two dozen people which was flattened in the way you describe. Ever.", "timestamp": "1527056777"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1527087660"}, {"author": "Ben", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942465409642&reply_comment_id=942682983622", "anchor": "fb-942465409642_942682983622", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Have you guys spent much time in religious communities? Go visit the 5 closest local congregations to your home, you'll find lots of warm and inviting people. It's the \"gurus seducing acolytes\" that are the outliers, in practice", "timestamp": "1527116133"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1527116640"}, {"author": "Ben", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942465409642&reply_comment_id=942684924732", "anchor": "fb-942465409642_942684924732", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Church membership is almost completely decided by what the worship culture is, which correlates strongly with things like race/ethnicity/SES. In my (admittedly small) sample of visiting churches where I was a cultural minority, it was pretty clear that everyone was pretty happy to see me and very welcoming.", "timestamp": "1527117284"}, {"author": "Jacob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942465409642&reply_comment_id=942690074412", "anchor": "fb-942465409642_942690074412", "service": "fb", "text": "→ If you visited briefly, you have literally no idea what their status hierarchy looks like. Any group can look welcoming and egalitarian on the surface; until you are established and start violating group norms you didn't know existed, you don't know who can get away with what.", "timestamp": "1527119463"}, {"author": "Ben", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942465409642&reply_comment_id=942691172212", "anchor": "fb-942465409642_942691172212", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Eliot was talking about \"segregated\" churches as evidence of external hierarchies (e.g. \"my church is better than your church\"), not internal ones. Admittedly some churches these days are snobby to other churches, but it's usually about deviations in theology. In successful churches, you will generally find that members don't feel like they are being excluded, and that everyone is welcome. In fact, churches compete rather furiously in the \"be as welcoming as possible\" department", "timestamp": "1527120155"}, {"author": "Jacob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942596641652", "anchor": "fb-942596641652", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm largely with Elliot here; I think most things which make it easy to acquire status make it significantly easier in every subculture, regardless of what particular merits that subculture rewards with local status.", "timestamp": "1527057032"}, {"author": "Brent", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942596641652&reply_comment_id=942875657502", "anchor": "fb-942596641652_942875657502", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Exactly. Rationalist status isn't about rationality; programmer status isn't about programming; artist status isn't about artistic skill.", "timestamp": "1527242781"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942596641652&reply_comment_id=942880108582", "anchor": "fb-942596641652_942880108582", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think it varies a lot by subculture; in traditional music (fiddle tunes) I think skill is a big part of status, as is dance skill in social dance communities.", "timestamp": "1527248201"}, {"author": "Anna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942596641652&reply_comment_id=942904255192", "anchor": "fb-942596641652_942904255192", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Yeah musical skill is absolutely a status-granting thing in lots of musical circles.", "timestamp": "1527264074"}, {"author": "Anna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942596641652&reply_comment_id=942904574552", "anchor": "fb-942596641652_942904574552", "service": "fb", "text": "→ To be clear I don't disagree that demographics/social skills/etc. introduce bias. But they're not the only thing and I'm not convinced that they're more important than skill and community-specific contributions.", "timestamp": "1527264250"}, {"author": "Anna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942596641652&reply_comment_id=942904809082", "anchor": "fb-942596641652_942904809082", "service": "fb", "text": "→ (not sure about the case of rationalist community stuff in particular, since providing value here is often fairly intangible)", "timestamp": "1527264320"}, {"author": "Ben", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942687225122", "anchor": "fb-942687225122", "service": "fb", "text": "I find this really interesting!
I suspect Elliot and Jacob are right that, in many subcultures, status correlates with familiar privileges and traits (race/gender/class/etc.) My experience also matches David's that people outside the subculture don't seem to rank as \"lower status,\" just \"different.\"
That said, I think I still buy your conclusion that the internet allows people across society to experience generally higher status.
I think the reason is that my feeling of personal status isn't really an *average* of my subculture statuses; it's more like a *maximum.* If I'm good at drawing webcomics and bad at rock-climbing, then I pour my sense of self into the thing I'm good at.
Thus, the sheer *multiplicity* of subcultures gives people lots of chances to play the status game. Even if every game is slightly rigged, you've got a better shot at winning at least one of them than you did in the pre-internet days when there were fewer subcultures. Even better, it's not random - people will systematically seek out subcultures where they're likelier to thrive.", "timestamp": "1527118402"}, {"author": "Jacob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942687225122&reply_comment_id=942690478602", "anchor": "fb-942687225122_942690478602", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I actually don't think standard prejudices are tightly connected to status, to be clear.", "timestamp": "1527119699"}, {"author": "Jacob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942687225122&reply_comment_id=942691077402", "anchor": "fb-942687225122_942691077402", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Also, people who \"systematically seek out subcultures where they're likelier to thrive\" probably doesn't look like you think. Real world examples of that include /r/redpill, the Weather Underground, ISIS, and the Nazi party. _Actually_ forming a subculture disconnected from the broader status hierarchy essentially requires holding broader society to be in some sense inferior to your group. Conversely, many people join groups which are terrible for them because those groups are high-status, like online activism.", "timestamp": "1527120031"}, {"author": "Ben", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942687225122&reply_comment_id=942705508482", "anchor": "fb-942687225122_942705508482", "service": "fb", "text": "→ There seem to be lots of internet subcultures with their own idiosyncratic status hierarchies and no radical critique of larger society - contra dancers on Facebook, math teachers on Twitter, weird memes on tumblr, genetic genealogists on blogs, nature poets on WordPress, pretty much everyone on Pinterest... So I think maybe we're talking about different phenomena.
Like, I don't have stats on whether quirky hobbyists or aggressive radicals dominate the internet, but there seem to be plenty of both.", "timestamp": "1527128143"}, {"author": "Jacob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942687225122&reply_comment_id=942865447962", "anchor": "fb-942687225122_942865447962", "service": "fb", "text": "→ You totally misunderstand two things I said. First, that any radical critique is necessary to feel superior to general society. It is not. Spite is enough. (Weird meme communities usually have simple disdain for 'normies'.) Second, you think that contra dancers on Facebook, math teachers on Twitter, etc., have status hierarchies which are disconnected from broader society's. They do not. They value other things, but fundamentally they value the same things.", "timestamp": "1527224382"}, {"author": "Ben", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942687225122&reply_comment_id=942885432912", "anchor": "fb-942687225122_942885432912", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Hi Jacob - to be honest, I don't feel like you're making a good-faith effort to understand what I'm saying (and you seem to feel the same about me) so I'm going to drop it.", "timestamp": "1527252886"}, {"author": "Jacob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/942405320062?comment_id=942687225122&reply_comment_id=942961325822", "anchor": "fb-942687225122_942961325822", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I understand what you're saying just fine. It's empirically wrong, though, and you're only looking at the \"happy path\" cases instead of the ones which are most representative.", "timestamp": "1527288014"}, {"author": "gl", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/113720389476440620975", "anchor": "gp-1527187163709", "service": "gp", "text": "This great Gwern post bears on this: \n
\nhttps://www.gwern.net/The-Melancholy-of-Subculture-Society\n
\n
\nHe reaches your conclusion with a bittersweet twist.", "timestamp": 1527187163}]}