{"items": [{"author": "Bronwyn", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112209325452034727224", "anchor": "gp-1325448090290", "service": "gp", "text": "For me it's less an issue of chosen segregation among regular dancers and more an issue of how newcomers (both to dancing and to the particular community) are treated. If a group of regular dancers thinks they have a right to dance in a set with each other and nobody else, I think the community suffers. Bringing in new people and making them feel welcome is essential.\n
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\nI think there may be a place for segregated 'high energy' (or 'partner swapping' or 'chaos') sets, but I'm not sure that place is 'all the time at a local dance'. Perhaps if it really were just segregation by desired dance style at the time, but I think it's next to impossible to have that without also segregating by experience and familiarity and excluding people who may wish to dance energetically but are unknown or inexperienced. \n
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\nAlso, just as learning to dance both roles makes someone a better dancer (I believe), learning to adjust one's style to the environment does the same. This could be adjusting to a lower-energy neighbor, a partner with an injury, a hard or slippery dance floor... Partnering with a limited set of people keeps dancers from growing as much as they could. But as you say, I think most teenage dancers eventually do expand their horizons as they get older.\n
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\nFor me, local dances are places where I focus on expanding and strengthening the community and growing as a dancer. Special events, weekends, festivals etc are, I think, better places to aim for a particular style/set/experience. I find both environments to be enjoyable.", "timestamp": 1325448090}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1325459641129", "service": "gp", "text": "@Bronwyn\n \"If a group of regular dancers thinks they have a right to dance in a set with each other and nobody else\"\n
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\nI think the scout house fireplace set is about as open to new dancers as anywhere else in the hall. There are some places where there is segregation based on experience (greenfield) but I think at the scout house it's mostly based on age. The description of the 1950s dance did sound this way.\n
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\n\"segregated 'high energy' (or 'partner swapping' or 'chaos') sets\"\n
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\nI don't think me or anyone I quoted was using 'high energy' this way. More 'high energy' as in faster moving with more twirls and other flourishes. I've not danced somewhere with a partner swapping or chaos set.\n
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\n\"local dances are ... special events, weekends, festivals etc are ...\"\n
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\nThis local/special dynamic doesn't exist much around Boston. Aside from NEFFA I pretty much only dance at regularly scheduled events, and most of the experienced dancers likewise. Maybe also Flurry, YDW, or Ralph Page for some.", "timestamp": 1325459641}, {"author": "Bronwyn", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112209325452034727224", "anchor": "gp-1325462127733", "service": "gp", "text": "I've only danced at the scout house once, so I wasn't speaking to that dynamic specifically. Perhaps it is an example of age segregation working well. I would be interested to hear from others who dance there regularly. Really, I think the more important thing is that everyone is respectful and welcoming. If people in the fireplace set are open to newcomers and don't force flourishes and twirls on people just because they ended up in that set, that covers my main concerns.\n
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\nI do believe that dancing with a wide variety of people is important in learning to be a good dancer. Can a community encourage that while still supporting some age segregation? The standard (I think it's standard, at least) of only dancing with the same partner once in an evening is a start to that. \n
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\nI wasn't trying to say that high energy was the same as partner swapping. Just that both are examples of forming sets with the expectation of a particular dance style. \n
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\nIt may be that this sort of segregation is more threatening to smaller dance communities. For instance, the Pittsburgh dance only has two sets and they are generally very well mixed. I don't think it would work well (or really at all) any other way. There is definitely some selective partnering by age group, but not at the set level.", "timestamp": 1325462127}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/117732328885787456164", "anchor": "gp-1325467088398", "service": "gp", "text": "I dance at the Scout House now and again. I'm definitely not one of the \"young\" dancers but in theory I like the idea of dancing in the fireplace set -- except that I can't, as it is invariably too crowded. I can see why some of the older dancers who might be (or consider themselves) more \"fragile\" than I am might want to avoid it.\n
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\nA problem I see frequently, though, is a reluctance on the part of the fireplace set regulars to move to another line when the lines are severely unbalanced in length. This strikes me as basic courtesy. (I notice that this has started to get better recently.)\n
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\nOh, and...higher energy and more twirls are all very well, but not if it messes up your timing. If the extra twirl makes you late for the next move, it's not worth it.", "timestamp": 1325467088}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1325472831523", "service": "gp", "text": "I don't dance there regularly, but it also seems to me like the fireplace set is open to new dances. Or at least there were people in it who seemed to be new dances, seemed to be treated well, and seemed to be having a good time.", "timestamp": 1325472831}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/114987071963782993407", "anchor": "gp-1325473019919", "service": "gp", "text": "I think you know my stance on this matter, but I'll say it again. The 'fireplace'(stage left) line at the concord dance I call the 'energetic' line. they might not be the best dancers, but they definitely are the most exuberant. If you want to be exuberant at the expense of complete smoothness or control, that's where you should be. If you're new and you choose the fireplace set (if you can find your partner quick enough) then expect a firmer and faster correction if you are in the wrong spot. this might involve pushing, even though I would frown upon the tactic. I'll usually dance here more of the night than not, but am certainly willing to leave when it becomes too crowded.\n
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\nThe middle line, I call the 'smooth' line. it usually has a good assortment of good dancers, but more focused on sleekly moving through the dance. I'll dance here 1-4 times a night. I danced here most of the night when I didn't know more younger dancers.\n
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\nThe last line, stage right, is a mixture, I've never found a common current of dancers there, but usually dance there 1-2 times a night just to see what is going on.\n
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\nI do see other dances with separate patterns of lines, but never just based on age - I think that self selection with energy levels and techniques used are completely acceptable. They create their own atmosphere. The issue arises when someone only trained in one line tries to pull the same moves in a different line. You need to align your dancing to the people in that set, or your tone will be off. If I do a dip at all in the 'smooth' line, it will be much more contained than if I try to pull something off in the energetic set.", "timestamp": 1325473019}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1325473374500", "service": "gp", "text": "@Bronwyn\n \"Perhaps it is an example of age segregation working well\"\n
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\nWhile some scout house dancers would say this, my guess is most wouldn't. I know many people who say they don't like the idea of a separate set but dance there anyway because the people the want to dance with cluster in that set.\n
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\n\"don't force flourishes and twirls on people just because they ended up in that set\"\n
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\nI think it's less a matter of forcing them on people than having different defaults. When I danced exclusively in the fireplace set and liked it's separation, I thought of the twirl as being what the dance was. Over time, I became more accommodating, trying to predict whether someone would prefer not to twirl, and to notice when people signal they don't like it. Now my interpretation is closer to that of the older dancers: I think of the twirl as a fun variation. But the 2006 me that thought of it as the default didn't see it as forcing twirls on people so much as not seeing a point of a boring archaic slow version.\n
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\n\"both are examples of forming sets with the expectation of a particular dance style. \"\n
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\nI misunderstood; that makes sense.", "timestamp": 1325473374}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/279608648755157?comment_id=279820648733957", "anchor": "fb-279820648733957", "service": "fb", "text": "1) compared to the center set at the VFW in the 80s thfps is super welcoming. 2) as someone neither young nor old my choice of both partner and line is based on energy and skill. At the bida dances the demographic is so young that I find energy in all lines and most people. 3) The scene in all of the New England dances tends to be younge r because of the college influence, and that somehow groups of high schoolers make the dance an important part of their social life (families like Jeff's being one example). I very much want to nurture the younger dancers, since they are the future of contra.", "timestamp": "1325473539"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1325474355089", "service": "gp", "text": "@Robert\n For the most part I think it's that you value different things. Channeling my 2006 self, having enough space to dance was far less important than dancing with friends. I didn't even consider dancing in a different set: it didn't matter how crowded that set was, it was the only place to dance. Similarly with being late because of twirls: being on time wasn't all that important, and impressing peers was.", "timestamp": 1325474355}, {"author": "Bronwyn", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112209325452034727224", "anchor": "gp-1325474571421", "service": "gp", "text": "I prefer mixed sets myself. If I want an energetic dance, I'll go for an appropriate partner. Toning it down for 15 seconds while dancing with a neighbor who's dancing less energetically doesn't ruin the dance for me. I enjoy the diversity. In my ideal world, everyone else would think the same way.\n
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\nOn the other hand, teenagers are teenagers. You point out a couple times that you and other teens were/are very reluctant to dance with \"creepy old people\". I stopped dancing as a teen because it was what my parents did and therefore uncool etc. Do we need to have a teenager set to keep teens dancing in large numbers? Can we have that and still encourage teens to branch out as they are ready to do so? \n
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\n\"I think it's less a matter of forcing them [twirls] on people than having different defaults.\"\n
\nThis is kind of what I mean about needing to dance with a lot of people to become a better dancer. I've gotten to the point where I can keep people from twirling me if I don't want to twirl without getting my arm yanked painfully. Less experienced dancers may not be able to do this. Learning how to lead without demanding is a really important part of learning how to dance safely and well. Doesn't the community have a responsibility to help it's members not hurt each other? Is there a way of helping teens learn these skills other than to get them integrated with other dancers?", "timestamp": 1325474571}, {"author": "Bronwyn", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112209325452034727224", "anchor": "gp-1325475112980", "service": "gp", "text": "@Danner\n \"The issue arises when someone only trained in one line tries to pull the same moves in a different line.\"\n
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\nI think that's a pretty big issue.", "timestamp": 1325475112}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1325509389686", "service": "gp", "text": "@Bronwyn\n \"Learning how to lead without demanding\"\n
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\nI'm not sure I would call it \"leading\". The twirl was so much the default that doing a courtesy turn instead would be leading. Doing more than one twirl would also have been \"leading\". (As far as I know, things haven't changed among highschoolers)", "timestamp": 1325509389}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/114987071963782993407", "anchor": "gp-1325513796715", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff Kaufman\n \n@Bronwyn\n : My mantra is 'everything is an offer' - that would be the fastest that I could explain the mentality to a new leader.", "timestamp": 1325513796}, {"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/114331051162737492448", "anchor": "gp-1325529882239", "service": "gp", "text": "Great discussion on all points. Personally I favor dance series where the tendency is to have all people who want to dance dancing, and where an absolute beginner or stranger feels welcome. To this end my first priority in choosing a partner is to see who has been sitting out; these people tend to be beginners or strangers. If there's a gender imbalance in my favor, women will partner up out of necessity (some will do that out of preference as well). In those cases I try to notice which women have been dancing the lead part, and I'll ask a woman who danced the lead to see if she'd like to dance the opposite role. Secondary criteria for choosing a partner are people I haven't danced with before, and friends whom I only see at dances. I refrain from booking ahead so that I'm open to dance with anyone, and I'm always happy to dance with anyone who asks me (though if there are a noticeable number of new people who have been sitting out, I have turned down friends in order to dance with beginners; I've also chosen to sit out rather than have a beginner sit out when there are more men than women.) \n
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\nIf you dance with a large variety of dancers (and I think what I try to do encourages that tendency), then you will be in a position to learn to adapt to all different ages and skill levels. In a thoroughly mixed set, where there are all skill levels and ages, and the dance has a neighbor swing, I find I can always dance however I want if I'm patient enough and sensitive to the level of the person I'm swinging with.\n
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\nIn theory I think age mixing is an ideal, but I agree people should trust their \"creepiness\" instincts and dance with people that make them feel comfortable. \n
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\nI also want to echo Bronwyn's initial comments, which I completely agree with:\n
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\n\"For me it's less an issue of chosen segregation among regular dancers and more an issue of how newcomers (both to dancing and to the particular community) are treated. If a group of regular dancers thinks they have a right to dance in a set with each other and nobody else, I think the community suffers. Bringing in new people and making them feel welcome is essential.\" \n
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\nYes. Even if there is no conscious exclusion per se, if a person new to a place perceives that there is a \"preferred set,\" then that perception, however unfair, could lead to the feeling of not being entirely welcome.\n
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\n\"Also, just as learning to dance both roles makes someone a better dancer (I believe), learning to adjust one's style to the environment does the same. This could be adjusting to a lower-energy neighbor, a partner with an injury, a hard or slippery dance floor... Partnering with a limited set of people keeps dancers from growing as much as they could.\"\n
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\nExactly. Contra dancing is a great place to interact with those who are different from you, even if it's only minimally. I think many of the world's problems exist simply because people don't understand enough about each other. Is contra dancing going to solve the world's problems? No, of course not. But it's a small, real step in the right direction.", "timestamp": 1325529882}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/117732328885787456164", "anchor": "gp-1325530305274", "service": "gp", "text": "@Danner\n \"Everything is an offer\": That's a very good way to put it. There are a number of dancers -- some of them \nwell\n past their teens -- who don't understand this. I learned to dance in a culture (or maybe it was just the particular dancer(s) I discussed this with) that made a point of saying that the twirl was the follower's choice. In that view, if you (generic) want to twirl me, greeting me with a slightly raised hand and an inquiring look is the way to do it; if you grab my hand and try to jerk it upward, I'll pull it down even if I had previously been inclined to twirl, and I'll probably be mildly pissed at you, too.\n
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\nI never particularly noticed that the lines other than the fireplace line had different styles. I find the idea vaguely repellent.", "timestamp": 1325530305}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/114987071963782993407", "anchor": "gp-1325530600437", "service": "gp", "text": "@Robert\n \"I never particularly noticed that the lines other than the fireplace line had different styles. I find the idea vaguely repellent.\" \n
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\nThis idea didn't originate with me, but I have seen some aspects that fit the pattern. However, I haven't done a decent analysis of the idea, it could be nothing above noise, and could just as easily be the 'green dress line', where more people wear green dresses than red - I'll be assessing my own thoughts behind this hypothesis, if you could also examine the other lines too, peer review, if you will :-)", "timestamp": 1325530600}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1325530844660", "service": "gp", "text": "@Robert\n, \n@Danner\n When there are three sets at the scout house I notice three different feels. I danced in all three (four some of the night) new years eve. I'm not sure how to describe the difference, though.", "timestamp": 1325530844}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/117732328885787456164", "anchor": "gp-1325530935755", "service": "gp", "text": "+Paul : Yes to pretty much everything you say, expect to point out that if there are more men than women, you don't have to sit out; there are plenty of men who will be willing to dance with you.\n
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\nBy the way, friends of mine -- experienced dancers, mind you -- who have danced at the Scout House when visiting from out of town have complained that the dance as a whole does not feel welcoming to strangers. Their perception is that just about everyone, of whatever age, is mostly interested in dancing with their friends, and that people tended not to ask them (the visitors) to dance. I guess I've been dancing there, albeit intermittently, for long enough that I'm not experiencing this, although I do note a dispiriting tendency to book ahead.", "timestamp": 1325530935}]}