{"items": [{"author": "BDan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/294530933922962?comment_id=294538223922233", "anchor": "fb-294538223922233", "service": "fb", "text": "I would believe that it's possible to contra to a tune with phrases that aren't powers of 2, provided the dance is designed for it, but even if it's a good tune that makes it clear what's going on, it's going to be a bit harder because we're not used to it. I think dancing to something with no phrasing at all would be nigh-impossible without constant counting, which isn't really fun.", "timestamp": "1324312538"}, {"author": "Peter", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103618186481362054522", "anchor": "gp-1324318475864", "service": "gp", "text": "So if the caller kept calling, perhaps even more rhythmically than usual, one could dance to music without phrasing without having to count--though I think that would be less fun than usual. However, how much of a PITA is that for the caller?", "timestamp": 1324318475}, {"author": "Dan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/294530933922962?comment_id=294594047249984", "anchor": "fb-294594047249984", "service": "fb", "text": "David Kaynor's dance, Cherokee Shuffle, comes to mind as a contra composed to a tune that has 10-measure B parts. Dancers get used to it after a short time, but it *is* well-phrased. As a dancer (and a caller) I dislike it when I have to count to keep track of how long the movements are; I'd rather be enjoying the other dancers. Clear phrasing is, in my mind, an essential component of what makes contra dancing contra dancing.", "timestamp": "1324318980"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1324319018232", "service": "gp", "text": "@Peter\n You've just described unphrased patter calling, as you might see for southern squares.", "timestamp": 1324319018}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/294530933922962?comment_id=294598153916240", "anchor": "fb-294598153916240", "service": "fb", "text": "@Dan: Another tune/dance like this is black jack [1], which is AAB where the 'A's are 12 beats and the 'B' is 20. It's quite well phrased, even though the phrases are not standard length. What matters is how dancers will hear it.
[1] http://www.jefftk.com/contras/tunes/blackjack.mp3", "timestamp": "1324319473"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/294530933922962?comment_id=294599517249437", "anchor": "fb-294599517249437", "service": "fb", "text": "As a fairly strong proponent of techno contra, I agree with you. The thing that makes My Cool successful is that it's got clear 8-beat phrasing. I've done techno contra like the one in the Spokane vid, and to DJ Improper and Double Apex, and the kind like the Spokane vid is much less satisfying.
I also believe that it's easier to hear phrases in techno and other alt-music for contra if you're used to listening to that kind of music...which many contra callers and dancers aren't.", "timestamp": "1324319630"}, {"author": "BDan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/294530933922962?comment_id=294604720582250", "anchor": "fb-294604720582250", "service": "fb", "text": "Sure, and there are lots of ECD dances/tunes that follow all sorts of odd structures. The critical thing is that the dance fits the music; since most contras are written to be danced to any 32 bar tune in 8 bar phrases, they can't be danced to anything else. If the dance fits well enough, the dancers may not even notice that it's odd.
I still want to see a slip jig with 9-bar phrases, though. :-)", "timestamp": "1324320241"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/294530933922962?comment_id=294618400580882", "anchor": "fb-294618400580882", "service": "fb", "text": "It was useful to me to drill thru to the Contra Syncretist interview with Terra Price and then further thru to the \"My Cool\" vid mentioned in the interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcwgicJf4rg&feature=youtu.be
Frankly, I think we're looking at the future of contra here. No art form remains static without becoming, well, static. Young people, teens, 20's, are the life blood of a continuing folk art form. And they turn out enthusiastically for music that older folks tend to find bemusing, or even confusing.
The younger dancers in the \"My Cool\" vid clearly have no problem with the lack of phrasing. While watching it, I started counting beats in 8's, and then stopped when I realized I was on count 13. There was no clear signal that triggered my well developed need to count up to 8 and then restart at 1. BTW, my classical music view of contra counting is that there are 64 beats per progression, and that phrasing occurs at 8 or 16 of those beats. To further clarify, A=16, A'=16, B=16, B'=16.
That being said, my personal preference is for a mix in a dance series with classic contra tunes based in Celtic and Appalachian, as well as techno-contra a la Perpetual eMotion and beyond.", "timestamp": "1324321724"}, {"author": "Dan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/294530933922962?comment_id=294659660576756", "anchor": "fb-294659660576756", "service": "fb", "text": "Well, I watched the video. It seems that the caller either chose or had to call throughout the whole dance (perhaps because of the obvious lack of phrasing, I'd guess). This made the activity seem eerily like Modern Western square dance -- all that was missing were the Mainstream and Plus level calls. With MWSD, the beat, and not the phrase, is the thing. In my mental model of contra dancing, the primary relationship is the band/music and the dancers, with the caller as a catalyst who shuts up ASAP. This is magic. In MWSD, the relationship is with the caller and the dancers. Because of this critical difference, I think MWSD contra is an inherently different activity.", "timestamp": "1324326243"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/294530933922962?comment_id=294792720563450", "anchor": "fb-294792720563450", "service": "fb", "text": "The YDW (my cool) video doesn't look like the future of contra dancing to me. I don't see adults doing it. What I see in the YDW video is young people who are paying attention mostly to their partners, and not paying much attention to other dancers or to the whole dance. The YDW video shows lots of pieces of 8-count figures, but not much transition between the figures. I see in the YDW video lots of posing, groping, grinding and dipping, but not many of the parts of contra dancing that I enjoy, that is, dancing with my partner *and with* other people in the set, and having fluent transitions between the figures and between the dancers. I have nothing against posing, groping, grinding, and dipping. I just think those activities interfere with the flow of a contra dance.
I see no diversity in this YDW crowd, no newcomers, no old folks. They have plenty of room to dance. It looks like a high school clique. It doesn't look like the planet I contra dance on.", "timestamp": "1324343098"}, {"author": "BDan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/294530933922962?comment_id=294893043886751", "anchor": "fb-294893043886751", "service": "fb", "text": "Andrew: you do realize that YDW stands for \"Youth Dance Weekend\", right? It's explicitly a weekend for young people (defined as \"under 35\"). And being a weekend that requires a substantial advance commitment, there aren't likely to be many newcomers, either.
Personally, I like looking at the person that I'm most directly interacting with at any given point in the dance, and I think that does more in terms of dancing with the other people in the set than anything else.", "timestamp": "1324358076"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/294530933922962?comment_id=294907027218686", "anchor": "fb-294907027218686", "service": "fb", "text": "Yes, BDan, I know what YDW is (from rumor, not from going), and I don't mind that people dance that way as an alternative to contra dancing at an event that I can avoid. I've been contra dancing weekly since I was 20, so I did dance as a youth. I was responding to Mac's comment that he saw it as the future of contra dancing. I see it as something other than contra dancing. And I understand that the video from YDW is something of a demo, but I also see elements of that kind of dance on some contra dance floors, and it tends to be disruptive to the flow of the dance, because most dancers can't do those breaks (like dips, embraces, and poorly placed twirls) and flow smoothly into the next figure.
Re techno music, I was in my 20s during the 80s, and I danced to a bit of it, including at large raves. Based on a limited sample, I'd say the contra dance version is a pale imitation, though I appreciate the intent. I danced to DJ Improper in Watertown a few months ago, but I understand that one dance in a small church hall is not enough to judge.
Re looking the person you're interacting with, that's good, assuming you interact with people other than your partner as the choreography dictates. There are many dancers who focus exclusively on their partners, and I find it tedious to have to dance around them. It's not even just a matter of making eye contact, sometimes it's a \"time and space\" choice - choosing a line that works smoothly for you and your partner and for the couples around you as well.", "timestamp": "1324360816"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/294530933922962?comment_id=294996757209713", "anchor": "fb-294996757209713", "service": "fb", "text": "@Walker: I'm not convinced this is the future of contra. Dan and Andrew seem to be making a technical argument that this may take off but isn't *contra*. I don't think it's going to become that popular. The big issue is that getting music that fits the dance well requires a huge amount of work (double apex, perpetual emotion) or very careful selection (and possibly live mixing) of prerecorded music. Perhaps people will stop caring about this match (as in modern western squares or unphrased southern squares), the electronic tools may become less work, or some particular prerecorded tracks will become standard. These seem unlikely, at least currently.
A video that I prefer as a target: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beOFeIIk4KY
(I do see people in the \"my cool\" video paying attention to people who aren't their partners. They *are* tending to pick a person and focus on them for longer than people normally do. Normally people spread their attention around more, making passing eye contact with lots of people. But most of these dancers dance the same way at non-techno contras too.)
(I would also be wary of reading too much into how comfortable the dancers in Forrest's video are with the reduced phrasing. It's a highly edited video recorded at a dance weekend in multiple takes with the caller not included in the audio.)
(Your understanding of the tune as being A/A'/B/B' is the same way most musicians and callers think of it, although they usually say A1/A2/B1/B2. \"My Cool\" is alternating four beat chunks, so while it doesn't give the \"this is where you are in the dance\" or \"this is the top of the dance\" cues it does give the \"its time to start the next figure\" cue.)", "timestamp": "1324381939"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/294530933922962?comment_id=295041627205226", "anchor": "fb-295041627205226", "service": "fb", "text": "I can't tell you how many times I've watched this particular vid. Next to Doug Plummer's Crowfoot in Tacoma, it is my favorite demonstration video of what contra is.
http://www.dougplummer.com/#/Videos/Crowfoot/1
But you use the word \"target\". For me, both vids are a pretty good demo of what contra is today, although I think there are more dips and elaborately linked twirls performed today at Scout House than three years ago. This seems to be an influence of swing dancing. Question is where is contra headed, based on many dancers' preferences. My prediction is that more of the music will become techno. An economic impetus: members of two person bands take home more money each than four person bands. Techno literally amplifies the product -- though \"expands\" would be a better word. Notorious is the only non-techno band I can think of where two musicians produce music as energizing as Perpetual eMotion.", "timestamp": "1324389364"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/294530933922962?comment_id=295046567204732", "anchor": "fb-295046567204732", "service": "fb", "text": "@Walker: \"members of two person bands take home more money each than four person bands\"
At the extreme, where a fixed pot is divided among the band, that's still only 2x a four-piece and 1.5x a trio. Talking to Julie, preparation for double apex is well more than 2x as much work as for a conventional band. I don't think the economic incentive is that strong.", "timestamp": "1324390142"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/294530933922962?comment_id=295048070537915", "anchor": "fb-295048070537915", "service": "fb", "text": "@Walker: as a demonstration, I think the crowfoot video you link might be better: showing more angles, including the overhead one, makes it more clear how people are in groups of four all doing the same thing.
The crowfoot video is of an older crowd; I might choose one or the other video depending on the age of the person I was trying to convince to come dancing. Thinking more, the videos Frank takes make the crowd look younger than it is because the fireplace set skews young and that's where the camera is.", "timestamp": "1324390359"}, {"author": "Frank", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/294530933922962?comment_id=295137480528974", "anchor": "fb-295137480528974", "service": "fb", "text": "Doug Plummer's video is great - love the multicamera angles and I've been meaning to put another camera in the Scout House office for an overhead shot (which I used to do when my swing band played there), but I never got around to doing it. My video from 1/2/09 used to be one of my favorites until I got my HD camcorder and now I can't watch low-res anymore haha. That video does show a lot of the younger dancers but what I liked best was Eph dancing with the girl in the blue top (whose name I cannot remember and I think she has defriended me from FB so I can't look her up), showing a difference of at least 60 years between partners!", "timestamp": "1324402099"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/294530933922962?comment_id=295144457194943", "anchor": "fb-295144457194943", "service": "fb", "text": "@Frank: I didn't mean to say that your video is uniformly young: I like that it's not. Just that the average age is higher in Doug's (and the range is lower).
HD is nice (we really like the HD videos you sent us after we played the friday dance) but as long as I can hear the music and kind of see what's happening, I'm happy.", "timestamp": "1324402935"}]}