{"items": [{"author": "Kate", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131094997069680", "anchor": "fb-131094997069680", "service": "fb", "text": "I think you should pick role names which sound very different to make instructions clearer and minimize people mishearing. I like leader/follower personally! I definitely agree that some kind of marker will be key for newer people, as well as not-so-new people at confusing moments. :)", "timestamp": "1362499245"}, {"author": "Dvor\u00e1", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131095057069674", "anchor": "fb-131095057069674", "service": "fb", "text": "If you use armbands, please invest in a better technology than flagging tape. Yes, it's economical, but tying something onto your own arm (possibly multiple times, if you switch roles a lot), is not easy to do well.", "timestamp": "1362499258"}, {"author": "Dvor\u00e1", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131095987069581", "anchor": "fb-131095987069581", "service": "fb", "text": "Also, although armbands are perfectly good as visual markers, they're a terrible basis for role names, for phonetic similarity reasons. I'm also not a fan of 'lead'/'follow', because I'm a reactionary/English dancer about that whole issue, but also because I've experienced too many gent-type people using that as a justification to manhandle their partners, and too many lady-type people taking it as an indication that they should just sort of go limp and become impossible to read for what they're actually trying to get out of the dance. I say pick any two role names that aren't those.", "timestamp": "1362499533"}, {"author": "Mycroft", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131096217069558", "anchor": "fb-131096217069558", "service": "fb", "text": "In general, I'm not a fan of armbands, but it seems to be the most common method.", "timestamp": "1362499618"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/117732328885787456164", "anchor": "gp-1362499669011", "service": "gp", "text": "While I'm ambivalent about the use of armbands myself (I too like the option of switching roles during a dance), I agree with your inclination to stick with the gender-free tradition currently in effect, and I'll provide an additional reason: The caller for the evening has been using \"armband\" terminology for at least 20 years, and it might complicate his life unnecesarily (and impact his calling) if he had to use something else on short notice. (I assume you've discussed it with him, but still.)", "timestamp": 1362499669}, {"author": "b", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109680641548243670506", "anchor": "gp-1362500222257", "service": "gp", "text": "@Robert\n: In principle, armbands of some kind don't preclude the possibility of switching roles. If you have elastic armbands, say, it's fairly easy to quickly take them off and pocket them between dances. It just doesn't work with the flagging tape option. Of course, getting elastic armbands for one event doesn't make a ton of sense.", "timestamp": 1362500222}, {"author": "Kate", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131098077069372", "anchor": "fb-131098077069372", "service": "fb", "text": "I support using lead/follow and also helping people understand that those terms don't mean pushing/limp wrists. :) I think now people tend to just be like, 'okay do you want to be the guy for this?', which reinforces the idea that men should do the leading. Also Jeff, you guys should do an announcement about some dance courtesy/conventions like having tension, not shoving people, etc! I have only been to one gender-free contra and it was the worst thing ever because the men I danced with were super rude about my leading (which was pretty good back then!).", "timestamp": "1362500274"}, {"author": "Holly", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131098133736033", "anchor": "fb-131098133736033", "service": "fb", "text": "What about making the arm bands into necklaces/neckties, big loose things that would be easier to swap around on the fly?", "timestamp": "1362500287"}, {"author": "Cory", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131098257069354", "anchor": "fb-131098257069354", "service": "fb", "text": "yes, I hate the term bands and bares, just because they sound too much alike and I have to do too much translating in my head too because those terms are not particularly familiar to me. I know some people don't like lead and follow, because its technically not a lead follow dance, but I think its an easy term to use and remember and maybe can include a simple explanation with it", "timestamp": "1362500315"}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1362500787108", "service": "gp", "text": "I was skeptical of this technology at first, but now I have danced for awhile in the SF gender free contra scene, and the armbands don't seem like much of an encumbrance to advanced dancers role-switching during a dance. People who plan to switch usually don't have either partner wear an armband, and this works fine. (But you might want to alert your usual suspects for mid-dance switching that this is the preferred method; I have danced with a partner who wanted to switch and also wanted to have the \"band\" wear a band, and that was awkward and I think made it harder for people dancing with us.)\n
\n
\nIn fact, I generally don't wear an armband no matter what role I am dancing and how long I plan to keep it, and this also works fine. Occasionally a partner will insist, usually an experienced dancer who is concerned for new dancers, and I will wear one to avoid the argument, but mostly new dancers do just dance with who comes to them. More so than in traditional contra, I think. ", "timestamp": 1362500787}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/117732328885787456164", "anchor": "gp-1362500819926", "service": "gp", "text": "@benjamin\n As a matter of fact, for a little while a number of years ago, the JP dance used pieces of rainbow ribbon attached to alligator clips, which make it really easy to add or remove, and I snagged one for myself and still use it. But for some reason they seem to have all disappeared.", "timestamp": 1362500819}, {"author": "Joshua", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131100397069140", "anchor": "fb-131100397069140", "service": "fb", "text": "ties? how retro. I have a few in my closet that haven't been worn in 15 years or so.", "timestamp": "1362500932"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131101170402396", "anchor": "fb-131101170402396", "service": "fb", "text": "I've suggested optional differently colored armbands for the different roles, with beginners encouraged to use them. I thought having a signal for \"beginner\" (presence of armband) would be useful, but maybe that's not true.", "timestamp": "1362501136"}, {"author": "Joshua", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131101380402375", "anchor": "fb-131101380402375", "service": "fb", "text": "I think that anyone who has been to a couple of BIDA dances is used to people switching roles and certainly to two men dancing together. I think that an experienced partner should let a beginner choose the role that's easier for them, but I think that we'll do fine without any markers at all.", "timestamp": "1362501194"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131101460402367", "anchor": "fb-131101460402367", "service": "fb", "text": "I think two questions may be getting conflated here. The one that most people seem to be addressing is \"What terms should we use for gender roles going forward?\" -- which has been discussed to death in this and other forums in the past, and will be again in the future. But my understanding of Jeff's question is \"What terms should we use at this particular event?\" and I don't think the answers to these two questions are necessarily the same. Jeff's original post gave some reasons for sticking with the \"armband\" terminology for the March 17 dance, and I gave an additional one in my comment on Google+: The caller for this dance has been using it for 20+ years.", "timestamp": "1362501214"}, {"author": "b", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109680641548243670506", "anchor": "gp-1362501356273", "service": "gp", "text": "@Allison\n: If you have two unmarked experienced dancers dancing together, it means inexperienced dancers in the same hands-four can't use them for parity checking to make sure they're in roughly the right place. This isn't generally a huge problem, but given the stated goal of keeping people labeled for the inexperienced it seems suboptimal.\n
\n
\n@Robert\n: Yeah, I've seen elastic bands used in the the Bay Area, and they work great. I assume they have a similar problem with tending to vanish. I wonder what it would cost to maintain a stable supply.", "timestamp": 1362501356}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1362501557989", "service": "gp", "text": "Also, a recent dance weekend had a gender-free dance whose caller was expecting armbands but did not have armbands. I was surprised and impressed by the dances he managed to call without role terms at all, but wouldn't recommend the style unless your caller is enthusiastic about it. It required extra planning on his part and extra memory from the dancers (for instance, in a couple of dances, he gave us a \"home side\" and used that in calls: \"give and take to your home side\"), and also relied on us swinging in a consistent manner on our own (at least for neighbor swings) which was safe in this experienced crowd but wouldn't be everywhere. You could choose dances to minimize these problems, even if you didn't choose them to be completely role-free in the way you usually call them, but that would also take pretty much thought, I imagine.", "timestamp": 1362501557}, {"author": "Ben", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131102913735555", "anchor": "fb-131102913735555", "service": "fb", "text": "There really aren't many things you can wear and switch easily while dancing. Hats?", "timestamp": "1362501663"}, {"author": "Cory", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131103000402213", "anchor": "fb-131103000402213", "service": "fb", "text": "I think that experienced dancers certainly don't need markers, however, the helpful reason for beginners to have markers is so, if they are mixed up and in the wrong places, the experienced dancers can sort them out easier and help them be where they need to be.", "timestamp": "1362501696"}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1362502094209", "service": "gp", "text": "@benjamin\n, in this situation it is pretty easy for the experienced dancers to do the parity checking. Also, I think, this is actually preferable. Especially because people do not always wear armbands in a consistent manner; inexperienced dancers do not necessarily have the time and attention to spend looking for an armband that may have slipped down to a wrist or be partially covered by a sleeve. It is better for them to know that if they see am armband, that is a definite role signal, but if they don't see one, they should just keep dancing. Most are actually quit good about this.", "timestamp": 1362502094}, {"author": "BDan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131106847068495", "anchor": "fb-131106847068495", "service": "fb", "text": "I also dislike both bands/bares and leads/follows for reasons previously cited. Personally, I'm fine with the use of gents/ladies and being whichever one of those, but I understand why that might be objectionable to some, so I'll vote in favor of some other set of terms.", "timestamp": "1362502986"}, {"author": "Victor", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131109027068277", "anchor": "fb-131109027068277", "service": "fb", "text": "Robert-That the terms have been used for 20 years doesn't seem important to me. By that logic, we should say ladies and gents. I think that bands and bare are terrible terms for a variety of reasons, including that they start with the same letter. Leaders and followers, although someone inaccurate, works better for me.", "timestamp": "1362503644"}, {"author": "b", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109680641548243670506", "anchor": "gp-1362503887300", "service": "gp", "text": "@Allison\n: That solution is generally adequate, but it doesn't present the best learning path for inexperienced dancers to start developing a sense of sanity checking (which is one of the more important seriously under-taught but vitally important skills). It also aggravates problems associated with experienced dancers who don't know each other, and dancers who think they're more experienced than they are. Concretely, I've from time to time had the experience of going to a new dance (as a reasonably experienced, albeit non-expert dancer) and ending up dancing the 'lady' role while presenting as male, and having had people I meet in the dance pause for a moment to try to decide if they're supposed to be correcting me - not a huge deal, but it is annoying and it tends to screw up the flow, and there are a number of other scenarios like this. It's true that a missing armband is never unambiguous proof of a parity error, but it still seems like maximizing available parity information can only be an improvement.\n
\n
\nYes, if you're really switching roles so often that armband handoffs aren't viable, of course you just take them off an figure everybody else will deal. But in situations where handoffs are viable, or would be viable with superior armband technology, that seems preferable.", "timestamp": 1362503887}, {"author": "BDan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131110227068157", "anchor": "fb-131110227068157", "service": "fb", "text": "Oh, and one more thing not to do: please don't use anything based on room characteristics. I can never remember which side has the windows in which hall.
(That said, I'm going to be out of town for this particular dance, so my opinions probably shouldn't count for as much as those who are actually going to be there.)", "timestamp": "1362503913"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131111270401386", "anchor": "fb-131111270401386", "service": "fb", "text": "Victor: That wasn't really my point; I was thinking of the comfort level of the particular caller in question. And while I'm sure Chris is prepared to be flexible (and surely he can speak for himself, if he's following any of this), I think asking him to switch to an unfamiliar terminology on short notice is not fair to him, and making the caller's life difficult probably leads to making the dancers' lives difficult.
When LCFD or the JP dance books callers who have not previously called for a gender-free dance, we try to make sure that they know well in advance what terminology they're expected to use. (We failed to do this properly for the English caller for one dance weekend, with somewhat unfortunate results.)", "timestamp": "1362504179"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131111817067998", "anchor": "fb-131111817067998", "service": "fb", "text": "@Victor: \"bands and bare are terrible terms\"
My understanding is that they work pretty well for the groups that use them. When I've heard complaints about the system it's always been dislike for dealing with the physical markers, not that the words didn't work.", "timestamp": "1362504351"}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1362504480623", "service": "gp", "text": "@benjamin\n, it's interesting that you mention people trying to \"parity check\" you into the gent role at traditional contras. It's this kind of thing that makes me think using visual cues in other dancers' appearances as a check on where they (or you) should be is not a desirable habit to emphasize for new dancers. Having a sense of one's own position relative to the set, especially at the moment of progression, is a much more reliable sanity check to cultivate.\n
", "timestamp": 1362504480}, {"author": "Victor", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131112950401218", "anchor": "fb-131112950401218", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff-You are right that they work for people who get used to them, but they don't work well for people, like me, who only occasionally dance at a gender free event. Terms beginning with different letters would work better. Port and Starboard? Windward and leeward? North/South? Sun/moon(has been used)?", "timestamp": "1362504734"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/117732328885787456164", "anchor": "gp-1362504736465", "service": "gp", "text": "@benjamin\n : In the present context, I think it's worth noting that at BIDA dances in particular it's pretty common to find people dancing in a different role than their gender presentation would suggest, so people are unlikely to consider \"correcting\", more especially at a dance that's billed as gender-free. I agree that the armbands are a useful marker for beginners, but BIDA has actually been coping with a \"gender-flexible\" crowd without visible markers for some time.", "timestamp": 1362504736}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131113820401131", "anchor": "fb-131113820401131", "service": "fb", "text": "Well, to be honest, even after 16 years I've occasionally had trouble being sure whether the caller has said \"band\" or \"bare\", especially if the sound is a bit muddy. But I've had similar problems with \"left\" and \"right\", so what are you gonna do?
I think that a shift to something else (I rather like port/starboard myself) might be a good thing in the long run, but I don't think this particular event is the place to start, for reasons already expressed.", "timestamp": "1362505020"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131116897067490", "anchor": "fb-131116897067490", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff: The next time you find yourself in possession of a container of worms, you might want to hide the can-opener. :-)", "timestamp": "1362505294"}, {"author": "Matthew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131120540400459", "anchor": "fb-131120540400459", "service": "fb", "text": "If we only have bands/no-bands as identifiers, it seems like that decreases the role flexibility for dancers who just like dancing. Can we also have another marker (necktie?) for \"I'm a person, dance with me however I come\"?", "timestamp": "1362506327"}, {"author": "Ofer", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131128040399709", "anchor": "fb-131128040399709", "service": "fb", "text": "IMO you could either have:
1) A gender-free experienced dancers dance, with no markers.
2) A gender-free regular dance for all levels of experience, with markers, where people do not switch roles during a single dance, and deal with the annoyance of having to take a band on or off if they want to switch between dances.", "timestamp": "1362507727"}, {"author": "Gillian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131128110399702", "anchor": "fb-131128110399702", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm all about the Port/Star(board). The physical markers (ties, bands, whatever) are unnecessary and distracting - the awkward pause to look at someone's arm to see if they're flagging anything is just as awkward as the pause and double-take of someone's perceived gender not matching the word that goes with the role they're in. Inexperienced dancers should be counted upon to not switch roles mid-dance, and thus can be expected to remember which way they're ending a swing (and which word to listen for), and, as several people have said, assuming that the person who comes at you knows which role they're dancing and are on the appropriate side of the set unless otherwise indicated (look of terror, wandering around, etc.) is good training for all dancing.
Assuming lack of physical markers, bands/bares is confusing terminology to listen to, and because they are random - who knows which side the bands end on? Port and Starboard have real meanings (left and right) that fit with something real about the dancing - which side you end a swing on. This BIDA dance seems like it's the perfect time to use new and different terminology, since most of the dancers who go to BIDA are comfortable with role switching and gender-free dancing in practice if not in name, and so will have a minimum of confusion about the new terminology (only trad names to get confused about, not trad names, band/bare, and new words).", "timestamp": "1362507737"}, {"author": "Ofer", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131128527066327", "anchor": "fb-131128527066327", "service": "fb", "text": "What about using hats as role markers? Advantages include ease of taking on/off, and the fact that you'll see whether someone has a hat or not without having to look for it.", "timestamp": "1362507842"}, {"author": "Marcus", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/115811589251174483775", "anchor": "gp-1362507876812", "service": "gp", "text": "I vote for no armbands, I've always found them more cumbersome than helpful.\n
\n\u00a0\"Leads\" and \"Follows\" are fine terminology.", "timestamp": 1362507876}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131130733732773", "anchor": "fb-131130733732773", "service": "fb", "text": "@Gillian: \"Inexperienced dancers ... can be expected to remember which way they're ending a swing\"
Inexperienced dancers get confused about this a lot as is.", "timestamp": "1362508494"}, {"author": "Jude", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131130930399420", "anchor": "fb-131130930399420", "service": "fb", "text": "I've been to dances where they called it as As and Bs. Worked fine.", "timestamp": "1362508553"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131131057066074", "anchor": "fb-131131057066074", "service": "fb", "text": "@Ofer, Ben: I'd be worried about hats messing up people's hair, getting sweaty inside, and falling off.", "timestamp": "1362508583"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131131123732734", "anchor": "fb-131131123732734", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jude: did they combine this with markers?", "timestamp": "1362508605"}, {"author": "Jude", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131131647066015", "anchor": "fb-131131647066015", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, I honestly don't remember. It may not have been a specific \"gender-free\" dance, but just a caller who wanted to do it that way. I've only seen arm bands used as markers. But as for other ideas... How about Mardi Gras beads? They are very cheap and we could probably collect enough for free just by having people bring in their extras.", "timestamp": "1362508740"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1362508875351", "service": "gp", "text": "@Marcus\n\u00a0\"I vote for no armbands, I've always found them more cumbersome than helpful.\"\n
\n
\nIs this considering that you're not the target audience for armbands? \u00a0That is, armbands are mostly to make things easier for dancers who need the reminders, not people who are as comfortable as you.\n
\n
\n\"'Leads' and 'Follows' are fine terminology.\"\n
\n
\nThe problem with leads/follows is that there are a lot of people who very strongly dislike them. \u00a0I think this is even more than the number of people who dislike ladies/gents. \u00a0When there are other options that aren't hated by anyone (bands/barearms, ports/starboards) I think that's reason enough to avoid leads/follows.", "timestamp": 1362508875}, {"author": "Marcus", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/115811589251174483775", "anchor": "gp-1362510343594", "service": "gp", "text": "If they're actually helpful for beginners, I'd be fine with them, but I'm not convinced that's true.\u00a0 Is there anyone who has personally founded it helpful, as a beginner, rather than just assuming that it would be helpful for beginners?\u00a0 The hesiitation Benjamin describes comes from gender switching in an environment where its unusual, in my experience.\n
\n
\nI wasn't aware that language was offensive.\u00a0 I come from more of a ballroom tradition, where it's more descriptive, so it didn't occur to me. My apologies.", "timestamp": 1362510343}, {"author": "Yaron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131140197065160", "anchor": "fb-131140197065160", "service": "fb", "text": "Here's a stupid question: What are you expecting to happen differently at a BIDA dance that's labeled \"gender free\"? Are you thinking that those who come regularly (most of whom generally prefer to dance their visually guessable role, though some flexibility is exercised) are more likely to switch roles b/c it's labeled \"gender free\"? Are you expecting more gender-free types to show up at this dance than at other BIDA dances?", "timestamp": "1362511069"}, {"author": "Yaron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131140790398434", "anchor": "fb-131140790398434", "service": "fb", "text": "In other words, why is this night different from all other nights?", "timestamp": "1362511173"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131147363731110", "anchor": "fb-131147363731110", "service": "fb", "text": "@Nigel: \"switch part way through a dance, perhaps more than once, perhaps more often then we change neighbors\"
I think the way people usually deal with this is that neither wears an armband, and they compensate by being sure to be in the right place at the right time for their neighbors so that no one would need to check.", "timestamp": "1362512886"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131149670397546", "anchor": "fb-131149670397546", "service": "fb", "text": "@Yaron: \"Are you thinking that those who come regularly are more likely to switch roles b/c it's labeled 'gender free'\"
Yes. I think the dance being advertised and led as \"gender free\" will lead many people who mostly dance one role out of practice and habit to give the other a try. There are of course also people who are attached to the role they usually dance, and not everyone is interested in dancing both genders.
\"Are you expecting more gender-free types to show up at this dance than at other BIDA dances?\"
We're trying to publicize broadly so that people who prefer gender free dancing know we're doing it and can come.", "timestamp": "1362513806"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131172483728598", "anchor": "fb-131172483728598", "service": "fb", "text": "I really like Matthew's suggestion of having another marker for people who swap often and should be danced with as whatever position they're in. It eliminates the ambiguity between no-armband-because-I'm-following and no-armband-because-I'm-switching-and-armbands-are-inconvenient. But yet, it still allows people who will be consistent through a dance to have a signal that people can reliably use to determine their role. I've never heard this suggestion before, and I think it's a great one for gender-free dancing.
Ofer, it would be ironic if switching roles within a dance, as well as between them, were encouraged at regular BIDA dances but discouraged at gender-free ones. That seems counter to the whole idea of a gender-free dance.
Re: \"parity checking\", I think most beginners fail to do this. They either don't do it at all, ending up in the wrong place occasionally and having no idea, or they look around frantically trying to determine what went wrong, but have no idea how to fix it or what should have happened. In general, I think we're better off encouraging them to go with wherever they ended up. If they're not going to fix it accurately in most cases, might as well let someone else handle that, instead of worrying so much about interfering with what is already ineffective. The experienced dancers will figure it out, and after the beginners have been to enough dances, they'll learn too.
I dislike armbands and barearms -- I think it's cumbersome terminology, but my bigger issue is with the physical items getting in the way when I want to swap within a dance. Matt's suggestion would largely deal with this for me. I like leads and follows, but understand that others have issues with it. I'm all for creating a brand new set of terms that sidestep all these issues (Port and Starboard sound reasonable to me), but it's definitely an issue for an ongoing gender-free community to deal with. A one-off dance using brand new terminology would be confusing to both caller and dancers, and wouldn't build enough momentum for the terms to take off anyway. An ongoing community might get some initial confusion, but it would dissipate through continued use. The initial investment would be much more likely to pay off.", "timestamp": "1362519869"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1362520210112", "service": "gp", "text": "@Marcus\n\u00a0\"If they're actually helpful for beginners, I'd be fine with them, but I'm not convinced that's true.\"\n
\n
\nI'm not convinced either. \u00a0It's an important question. \u00a0I think the people who run gender free dances might be able to help here.", "timestamp": 1362520210}, {"author": "Yoyo", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112374925965540306459", "anchor": "gp-1362522022483", "service": "gp", "text": "One thing I've heard of (but not actually seen) is using the words \"armbands/barearms\" as a historical vestige without the arm accessories (that is, without any physical armbands), similar to using the words \"gents/ladies\" as a historical vestige without the gender.", "timestamp": 1362522022}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1362524192431", "service": "gp", "text": "I definitely talk to beginners who say they find the armbands helpful as visual cues. \u00a0I think this is likely especially true in a beginner-heavy crowd; at the Oakland Queer Contra there are often groups of four made up entirely of relatively new dancers, particularly near the beginning of the evening. In that situation, the armbands also help nearby dancers come in and sort out confusion during the walkthrough.\u00a0\n
\n
\nI'm not sure how much people really rely on them during the dance, though; I don't notice people stopping and looking for an armband before dancing with me when I am in the band role, the way people sometimes stop and look for the man to dance with when I am dancing the gent. And of course almost no one has learned to contra dance in the absolute absence of visible role signals, so it is difficult to compare.\u00a0", "timestamp": 1362524192}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/117732328885787456164", "anchor": "gp-1362524613364", "service": "gp", "text": "I think that one way that the armbands are helpful when there are significant numbers of beginners is that they enable the experienced dancers to determine whether the beginners are in the right place, so they can help fix it if they aren't.\n
\n
\nI think that I found the armbands helpful when I was a beginner, but it was long enough ago that I couldn't swear to it. It seems to me that there was less role-switching in the gender-free community 16 years ago, and that there was pretty well always one armband being worn per couple.", "timestamp": 1362524613}, {"author": "Ryan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131186200393893", "anchor": "fb-131186200393893", "service": "fb", "text": "I was already a decently experienced dancer (and experienced with dancing gender-sapped or whatever) before I began dancing in official gender free dances, so take my opinion for what it is. When I danced at JP regularly, myself and several other dancers would not consistently use the armband markers. I would if a partner requested it, but if I had an experienced partner, or was rushed between dances, would frequently go without. It never seemed to confuse people especially when I was lacking markers. It also is possible to inform potentially confused neighbors that \"I'm a band\" despite not wearing a band at the present moment, just like I have no hesitation to tell people \"I'm a lady\" if I'm dancing that role in a traditionally gendered dance . Despite neither matching my actual physical appearance, most dancers seem to be able to cope just fine.", "timestamp": "1362524687"}, {"author": "Ryan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131186283727218", "anchor": "fb-131186283727218", "service": "fb", "text": "Also, I miss dancing in Boston.", "timestamp": "1362524706"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1362527337"}, {"author": "Laura", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131217207057459", "anchor": "fb-131217207057459", "service": "fb", "text": "I was at a dance recently where the caller called gender free by refraining from using any terms to distinguish the roles. Instead, it went something like, \"people with their left hands free, turn each other by that hand once and a half.\" It was at times clumsy and awkward, but i was so impressed that i was quite willing to deal with the extra time it took to teach and get dances. The event we were at had almost no beginners, but I wonder if beginners would be able to pick that method of calling up almost as easily if they had no other norm to compare it to.", "timestamp": "1362532694"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131221130390400", "anchor": "fb-131221130390400", "service": "fb", "text": "@Laura: \"people with their left hands free, turn each other by that hand once and a half\"
What did they do for prompting during the dance? I can't think of a succinct way of reminding the people with their left hands free that it's their turn to initiate something. (Whereas with gendered calls it might be all you need to keep the dance flowing at a certain point is a simple \"gents\".)", "timestamp": "1362534225"}, {"author": "Laura", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131221987056981", "anchor": "fb-131221987056981", "service": "fb", "text": "The caller was Dean maybe he can explain it better. I think it was just left hand allemande, or left people allemande left? After a while, people remember who does what. Also, there were a lot of dances that did not have role specific figures.", "timestamp": "1362534563"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131240153721831", "anchor": "fb-131240153721831", "service": "fb", "text": "Commenting to indicate I'm listening. My goal in this experiment is to get a representative gender-free experience, so I'm reluctant to exert too much personal influence. I'm trying to keep an open mind, but in the abstract the bands/bares thing doesn't appeal to me.", "timestamp": "1362539912"}, {"author": "Susan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131252223720624", "anchor": "fb-131252223720624", "service": "fb", "text": "I really like the sun-moon terminology--that's the one I would like to try. Then you could call it cosmic contra instead of gender-free.... :)", "timestamp": "1362541588"}, {"author": "Rissie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131271870385326", "anchor": "fb-131271870385326", "service": "fb", "text": "As a person who has danced on both poles of the dance partnership, and enjoyed it immensely. But the terms are secondary to allowing oneself to experience both ends of the pairing. I have no trouble being a gent(leperson) or a ladiperson. Do those who usually occupy the gent role have trouble being ladipeople? Is it the term, or the very slight \"lead\" role associated with what is called the gent side of the pairing? I just wish to dance!", "timestamp": "1362542164"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131276043718242", "anchor": "fb-131276043718242", "service": "fb", "text": "The reason I've come to care about the terminology is that I've come to understand that some people find gendered terminology oppressive. (Not just inaccurate or outdated, but alienating and hurtful.) I'd like to find a way to make those people feel welcome, without confusing those who are new to contra dancing or alienating other constituencies.", "timestamp": "1362543477"}, {"author": "Rissie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131276897051490", "anchor": "fb-131276897051490", "service": "fb", "text": "Makes sense.", "timestamp": "1362543771"}, {"author": "Dean", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131291253716721", "anchor": "fb-131291253716721", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm coming late to this thread, but thanks Laura for drawing my attention to it. It is possible to call a dance without gender markers (gender-free ECD folks do it all the time). You teach the dance by saying this like\"person on the left, you have your left hand free. Do a left allemand with one another\" When you call, you just say \"Left allemand\" or, if someone seems confused, \"Left hand person do a left allemand\" (which you can fit pretty easily into the cadence of a dance move). And yes, in a swing, you could actually lose your partner (as someone said earlier, but I can't find the comment). So the caller has to choose dances where either (1) there are no neighbor swings on the side, or, more likely, (2) these are followed closely by a partner interaction that lets the foursome fix any errors before progression happens. This is more prep work for the caller, but hey, this is why they pay you the big bucks.", "timestamp": "1362546819"}, {"author": "Steve", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131297457049434", "anchor": "fb-131297457049434", "service": "fb", "text": "Is the choreography of a gender free dance different from a regular contra dance?", "timestamp": "1362550202"}, {"author": "Sam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131383477040832", "anchor": "fb-131383477040832", "service": "fb", "text": "Becky recently suggested \"ports and starboards\" as alternative names for dance roles, which captures meaning would fit on calls, and is unencumbered. I go to a gender free dance regularly, and never really wear a band, and people don't seem to mind, or notice. I've also never noticed a band on someone...", "timestamp": "1362573433"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131383820374131", "anchor": "fb-131383820374131", "service": "fb", "text": "@Steve: \"Is the choreography of a gender free dance different from a regular contra dance?\"
Not usually, though it sounds like the way Dean calls it's a bit different. For the 3/17 BIDA dance we'd like to have it be as much like our regular dances as possible while being gender free.", "timestamp": "1362573543"}, {"author": "Becky", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131390580373455", "anchor": "fb-131390580373455", "service": "fb", "text": "Sam, I stole that idea from someone else on Facebook (can't remember who suggested it originally as many people were chiming in in favor during that thread). And I like it a lot except for potential star/starboard confusion - I'd need to experience a dance that used it to see how much of a problem that would be.", "timestamp": "1362575756"}, {"author": "Dean", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131413007037879", "anchor": "fb-131413007037879", "service": "fb", "text": "I was at a dance that my church put on on Friday, geared toward beginners, and anything requiring partners was basically gender-free. (There was one point at which she suggested that mixed-sex pairs put the gent on the left, though I don't think she did that more than once, at least while I was there.) I don't think she executed much of anything as well as some other caller could have, but I will volunteer that it was a big mess when she simply tried not to name the roles in one early dance. Part of the problem (even if executed well) with \"people with your left hand free\" and beginners is that if they've made a mistake that has left their left hand free, they will have unintentionally and unknowingly switched roles, which will compound their confusion. (One of the great things about contradancing is that, no matter how badly you screw up, you can typically muddle along until a partner swing and start a new 32 measures from scratch.)
One of the things the caller did poorly was that she failed to make it known that one role was supposed to be on the left and the other on the right after a swing, in a promenade, etc. Of course, experienced dancers can and do switch roles (viz. don't necessarily come out of a swing on the same side that they were on the last promenade), but I think for beginners something like port/starboard is a great idea, insofar as the beginners who remember they're ones might still have trouble remembering which side that means. (On Friday, \"ones\" and \"twos\" met with some success.)", "timestamp": "1362580462"}, {"author": "Dean", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131416207037559", "anchor": "fb-131416207037559", "service": "fb", "text": "Incidentally, I'm a fairly experienced dancer, but still like visual role indicators, especially when I'm supposed to pair up with someone coming out of a different star or circle. Arm bands aren't great, though, mostly because I'm not looking at people's arms. If hats would stay on, that would be better, at least for me. In dances where almost men (or, more pertinently, people I visually identify as men) dance the \"gents\" role and almost all women (same caveat) dance the \"ladies\" role, I lean somewhat on appearance for guessing roles in those contexts. In gender-free contexts, even if there are arm bands, I mostly just cope with not knowing who in a nearby star is dancing which role.", "timestamp": "1362581318"}, {"author": "Diana", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131426430369870", "anchor": "fb-131426430369870", "service": "fb", "text": "Every time I've been contra dancing, women danced with women, men with men, women and men leading, women and men in pants with men and women in skirts...how much more freedom from gender is really possible? Does the caller say \"humans chain?\"", "timestamp": "1362582524"}, {"author": "Dean", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131451710367342", "anchor": "fb-131451710367342", "service": "fb", "text": "\"Right Hand chain\" does very nicely (especially since, when standing side by side, one partner has a right hand handy, and the other doesn't)", "timestamp": "1362588585"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131474663698380", "anchor": "fb-131474663698380", "service": "fb", "text": "@Diana: \"\"how much more freedom from gender is really possible?\"
Terms and expectations. While certainly at a BIDA dance everyone is welcome and encouraged to dance either part most of the dancers in the 'gent' role are male and most in the 'lady' role are female. With gender-free calling the intention is that people feel more free to dance either role as they want.
\"Does the caller say 'humans chain?'\"
As only half the dancers initiate the chain that's not so helpful a call. \"Bare-arms chain\" or \"Starboards chain\" communicate the idea without pulling in gender.", "timestamp": "1362594789"}, {"author": "Dean", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131477043698142", "anchor": "fb-131477043698142", "service": "fb", "text": "I have been wondering about the relevance of gender-free dancing in general (this is very relevant for me, since I only accept gigs where I can call gender-free). If a dance encourages role-swapping, do we really need gender-free calling? I think that in 2013, the answer is still \"yes\" - I meet any number of dancers who have the skills and aptitude to dance both roles, but haven't yet \"taken the plunge\". A gender-free session (or weekend) can be the impetus to make that happen.", "timestamp": "1362595491"}, {"author": "Danni", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131495873696259", "anchor": "fb-131495873696259", "service": "fb", "text": "As a transgender person who is not a man or a woman, I have not been able to even learn how to contradance because there are no genderfree opportunities to do so where I live. So I am strongly in favor of ANY genderfree solution to this problem. It's actually really discouraging to me to hear so much resistance to the idea from presumably cisgender people. That tells me either that people like me are entirely invisible, or that the contradance community isn't really that concerned with including people who aren't men or women, neither of which make me feel like I would like to learn to contradance. But it looks like so much fun! So I hope y'all figure this out. :P", "timestamp": "1362597894"}, {"author": "Cecile", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131500817029098", "anchor": "fb-131500817029098", "service": "fb", "text": "I think it's important to make sure beginners don't accidentally switch roles (see below)*, and to do that you need to know what role they're supposed to be dancing. It might be helpful for a beginner to be able to see what role others are dancing though maybe it would be obvious if the other dancers are experienced.
I'm in favor of an indicator worn around the neck, though more of a neckerchief or thick lanyard than a tie. Especially if they are a bright, unnatural color, they'd be easy to spot and could be easily removed and switched between partners if they wanted to switch roles during a dance.
*I was a beginner not too long ago, and I know how confusing it is at first. I learned my way around pretty quickly because the other dancers consistently made sure I got where I needed to go so I was able to figure out the patterns. I would not have been nearly so successful if the other dancers had let me accidentally switch roles all the time - there would have been no consistent pattern for me to pick up on.", "timestamp": "1362599254"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131510207028159", "anchor": "fb-131510207028159", "service": "fb", "text": "@Oliver: \"I have not been able to even learn how to contradance because there are no genderfree opportunities to do so where I live\"
While gender free dances as a whole are more welcoming to people who don't identify with either gender, there are genderqueer dancers who enjoy dancing at the mainstream dances, especially in urban areas. You're near Philly, right? I think if you went to the Glenside dance people would be friendly and welcoming.
But this does mean being comfortable choosing, for eight minutes at a time, to be a 'gent' or a 'lady'. Some genderqueer people don't mind this, others dislike it enough that they'll only go to gender free dances.", "timestamp": "1362602146"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131511167028063", "anchor": "fb-131511167028063", "service": "fb", "text": "@Ren: \"leaders and followers\"
This would be a fine solution, except that too many dancers hate the idea. Summary: some dancers think of the lead-follow component of contra dance as a minor embellishment at best and an unwelcome intrusion at worst, and either way much too small a component of the dance form to use in naming.
\"I don't see how having other people stick to a role between dances helps you learn to dance\"
Could you point out where someone's advocating this? I can't find it.", "timestamp": "1362602472"}, {"author": "Danni", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131515187027661", "anchor": "fb-131515187027661", "service": "fb", "text": "Having to pretend to be a gender that I'm not doesn't work for me, nor does assuming that a roomful of total strangers will agree with whatever gender I chose to pretend to be. I would like to learn to contradance, but it's a pretty big stretch outside my comfort zone to dance around other people in the first place, without also being constantly misgendered just to be able to participate.", "timestamp": "1362603938"}, {"author": "Do", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131516543694192", "anchor": "fb-131516543694192", "service": "fb", "text": "We used hats and no-hats once at Twin Oaks Community. It worked quite well and the \"hatless chain\" sounded quite funny!", "timestamp": "1362604507"}, {"author": "Do", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131531000359413", "anchor": "fb-131531000359413", "service": "fb", "text": "I did a lot of contradancing when I thought I was straight :-), then stopped because I didn't necessarily want to dance only with all the men, but liked the \"ladies\" part (and am a short person so it worked better). Now I can't spin because of vertigo :-(.", "timestamp": "1362609116"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131537713692075", "anchor": "fb-131537713692075", "service": "fb", "text": "@Oliver: \"Having to pretend to be a gender that I'm not doesn't work for me\"
Dancing as a 'gent' or a 'lady' doesn't require pretending to be male or female. Whichever role I dance (and I dance them about equally) I still act male. But if having the caller use the words 'lady' or 'gent' to describe you and all the dancers choosing to dance the same role would be unpleasant then I think you're right that a gender free dance would suit you much better.
\"assuming that a roomful of total strangers will agree with whatever gender I chose to pretend to be\"
It's definitely true that when finding partners at a gendered contra dance people will make guesses (assumptions) about which role people prefer to dance. (One option would be wearing a button that said \"I dance gent\" or \"I dance lady\".) While dancing, however, anyone can dance either role.", "timestamp": "1362611497"}, {"author": "Mary", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131588363687010", "anchor": "fb-131588363687010", "service": "fb", "text": "For Scottish country dancing I've used \"ties\", some of which may have once been actual ties but most of which are just tubes of plaid fabric sewn to create a loop that fits easily over a would-be lead's head. They'd be easy to swap, but they might be dangerous if made of something as light as armband tape.", "timestamp": "1362627557"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131617113684135", "anchor": "fb-131617113684135", "service": "fb", "text": "Oliver, many of us take the names \"lady\" and \"gent\" to be just names for dance roles rather than indicative of our genders. I think a person sort of has to think this way, for people who swap in dances that aren't officially \"gender-free\". I'm definitely male, but rather loose with my gender expression in lots of ways and not terribly attached to acting in masculine ways, or even wearing masculine clothing. There are plenty of people who have a clear gender, but frequently dance the opposite of the expected role. That said, there are also plenty of people who avoid ever dancing the other role, in large part because it involves taking on a different gendered term.
I'm really surprised that there aren't any gender-free dances near Philly. But I think you would be much more comfortable at this sort of dance. There's nothing inherently gendered about contradancing, except the terms we use, and some inconsistent but historical trends of which people typically dance which role (but don't have to.)
Do you know any contradancers in your area who might share your concerns? Other trans folk who might be more willing to take on a dance role, but still have an understanding of why it's so uncomfortable for some? G/L/B folk who just want to dance with people of their own gender without assigning a new gender(ed term) to either partner? People at the intersection of the GLBT community and the mainstream dance community may be able and willing to create gender-free dances in your area -- if you show them that there's demand for it.", "timestamp": "1362638057"}, {"author": "Danni", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131726463673200", "anchor": "fb-131726463673200", "service": "fb", "text": "So, like I said in my original comment...I've never done contradancing before, it's an activity that would be majorly stretching my comfort zone, I have no experience with it whatsoever other than that my friends seem to like it. I'm not looking to make such a huge commitment to it that I'd want to invest the time and energy in creating a whole space. I just want to be able to quietly show up and try it out, like anyone else who's new and nervous about it, without it having to be a whole big activist deal.", "timestamp": "1362669156"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=131803566998823", "anchor": "fb-131803566998823", "service": "fb", "text": "I wasn't suggesting you would try to be a leader in creating that new space, but that reaching out to people already in the community and letting them know that a gender-free dance community would be valuable to you. Ideally, those people would then take the leadership to make it happen, but I understand it's a long shot and you don't want to spend that much time and effort to push it into existence. So, I hope something is created where you can comfortably learn and enjoy. You might also want to look into whether there are other equivalent gender-free events near you for different kinds of dance, since gender-free contra doesn't seem to be available in your area. It's too bad, because it's lots of fun!", "timestamp": "1362683965"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=134088756770304", "anchor": "fb-134088756770304", "service": "fb", "text": "Using the terms port and starboard would make me much more likely to come. I'm very interested in experiencing that.", "timestamp": "1363208116"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=134095753436271", "anchor": "fb-134095753436271", "service": "fb", "text": "Update: we're planning to use the JP-style with armbands for this dance. We want to do something our caller (Chris R) will be used to and comfortable with and we're worried that port/starboard would be too confusing for new dancers. I still want to do a dance with port/starboard some time and see how it works, at bida or elsewhere, but it probably wouldn't be a good fit for this sunday.
But: dancers who don't want to deal with armbands are welcome not to just not wear them. Treat it kind of like dancing \"gender swapped\" at a regular dance: because you're not giving the standard cue to other dancers as to which role you're dancing it's a bit more important that you be in the right place at the right time.", "timestamp": "1363209640"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=134096426769537", "anchor": "fb-134096426769537", "service": "fb", "text": "How are dancers supposed to tell the difference between barearms and swappers? Would it make sense to have a second color of band?", "timestamp": "1363209868"}, {"author": "Jeannine", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=134097613436085", "anchor": "fb-134097613436085", "service": "fb", "text": "I've seen the neck-ties in 3 states so far, and they are easy to swap in a hurry. But they are not really necessary unless you have a lot of beginners.", "timestamp": "1363210179"}, {"author": "Penelope", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=134098073436039", "anchor": "fb-134098073436039", "service": "fb", "text": "ugh, yes, right place right time, everything else is gravy. (Personally I hate the armbands, the neckties and the people who waggle switchy fingers at me!)", "timestamp": "1363210276"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=134098186769361", "anchor": "fb-134098186769361", "service": "fb", "text": "@Chris: \"How are dancers supposed to tell the difference between barearms and swappers?\"
At a regular dance, how are dancers supposed to tell the difference between ladies and women dancing as gents? Normally the primary symbol for \"I am a gent\" is \"I look male\" and the symbol for \"I am a lady\" is \"I look female\". But at a regular dance there are many people who dance the other role, with someone of the same gender or not, and this works fine because of positional dancing. As long as you're in the right place at the right time no one needs to worry about your role symbols. So at this dance this primary system becomes \"I have an armband\" -> \"band\", \"I don't have an armband\" -> \"barearm\" and if you want to not use a band all you have to do is be in the right place at the right time.", "timestamp": "1363210309"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=134098356769344", "anchor": "fb-134098356769344", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jeannine: the downside of neckties in this context is that they indicate gender.", "timestamp": "1363210361"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=134100883435758", "anchor": "fb-134100883435758", "service": "fb", "text": "Here's a thought I haven't (personally) seen explored: dancers of different roles wear markers of different colors. The caller could refer to the roles by their colors. I'm sure we could find two colors that are distinguishable both visually and aurally (hopefully even to colorblind dancers).
Dancers who want to swap can then wear no marker, but it would be an explicitly laid-out responsibility of theirs to be in the right place at the right time.", "timestamp": "1363211063"}, {"author": "Jeannine", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=134189356760244", "anchor": "fb-134189356760244", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, women wear neckties too!", "timestamp": "1363224329"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=134191510093362", "anchor": "fb-134191510093362", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jeannine: \"women wear neckties too!\"
But the point of a necktie in contra is to say \"this woman is dancing the gent's role\". When men dance the gent's role they don't wear ties. Which is all well and good, but only makes sense because the roles are matched to genders.", "timestamp": "1363225320"}, {"author": "Jay", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/131092813736565?comment_id=134296240082889", "anchor": "fb-134296240082889", "service": "fb", "text": "Armbands. They are cheap and easy. It always works for the JP crowd.", "timestamp": "1363256874"}]}