{"items": [{"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761788792032", "anchor": "fb-761788792032", "service": "fb", "text": "She needs to stop being a landlord. If she ever gets committed, I doubt she'd be able to convince anyone of her sanity. I'm astounded she hasn't ended up in jail.", "timestamp": "1450369315"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761788792032&reply_comment_id=761791591422", "anchor": "fb-761788792032_761791591422", "service": "fb", "text": "→ She did 6 months in jail for pushing the tenant down the stairs. The judge is also requiring her to inform any potential tenants of her conviction of assault on a previous tenant. My concern is that, in a heavily Salvadoran neighborhood where a lot of people didn't speak English, she'll just end up renting to people who don't understand whatever information she provides. Or, because she's a 72-year-old 5-foot-tall woman, that people just won't believe it.", "timestamp": "1450371041"}, {"author": "Cory", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761788792032&reply_comment_id=761792779042", "anchor": "fb-761788792032_761792779042", "service": "fb", "text": "→ yes, she should be barred from renting at all!", "timestamp": "1450371998"}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761788876862", "anchor": "fb-761788876862", "service": "fb", "text": "\"He sentenced her to two years in jail on the assault and battery charge for pushing Suliman but required her to serve only six months, with the remaining 18 months suspended if she complied with certain probation conditions.\" -- So ok, can she just go to jail for two years instead? Maybe make it four, for being an asshole?
(Can you give someone extra jail time for being an asshole? I wouldn't think so, but it also seems weird that you can sentence someone to learn things. Like, what if she goes to class but doesn't learn anything? Will there be a test? What if she just sucks at taking tests? The idea of compelling someone to learn things just seems deeply bizarre to me.)", "timestamp": "1450369375"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761788876862&reply_comment_id=761815807892", "anchor": "fb-761788876862_761815807892", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Given that she's not being required to take the courses \u2014 only offered a reduced sentence should she take them \u2014 this seems legal and reasonable to me. Obviously the government can't require that she learn, but they can insist she be exposed to it (in order to reduce her sentence.)
I'm sure the idea is that, should she learn some of the reality of the religion, her prejudice would shrink at least to a manageable level. I'm pretty sure it won't work, though. Even to the extent that prejudice can be managed by learning, it seems her bigotry is hardly restricted to Muslims. Imagining a 100% successful conversion to amity with Islam, she'd probably only end up causing problems with some other, non-Muslim tenant instead.", "timestamp": "1450378773"}, {"author": "Sam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761788876862&reply_comment_id=761836162102", "anchor": "fb-761788876862_761836162102", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I don't think the fact that it is optional is relevant here if we are talking about legal president. If for example, an atheist was arrested for possession of cannabis and the judge believed that she had turned to drugs because of a lack of religion in her life, offering to reduce her sentence if she went to church wouldn't seem appropriate to me because it could be seen as threatening her with prison if she doesn't change her religion. To me the relevant facts are that it is quite clear that extreme religious ignorance is related to the cause of her crime and being forced to learn about a religion doesn't seem like a violation of the first amendment to me. In general though, I'm not convinced that it will help but I am in favour of looking for ways to reduce prison sentences in general.", "timestamp": "1450389564"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761788876862&reply_comment_id=761843222952", "anchor": "fb-761788876862_761843222952", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Sam: Why do you say ignorance? I'd be very surprised if her learning more about Islam led her to stop believing that its adherents were going to hell.", "timestamp": "1450393894"}, {"author": "Sam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761788876862&reply_comment_id=761844565262", "anchor": "fb-761788876862_761844565262", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Fair enough. I guess it would be relevant if that was clear. The judge seems to think that ignorance of Islam is related to her crime (otherwise why would he be asking her to educate herself). Not knowing her or the details of the case I'm definitely in a worse position that you to determine if the judge is right on that point but I think the larger issue is whether this violates her first amendment rights, which I don't think it does.", "timestamp": "1450394551"}, {"author": "Avalon", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761789375862", "anchor": "fb-761789375862", "service": "fb", "text": "I'd be concerned for the teacher that had her in their class, if she's as disruptive and violent as you say she is.", "timestamp": "1450369724"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761789375862&reply_comment_id=761791651302", "anchor": "fb-761789375862_761791651302", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Yeah, I don't think classes will be helpful, and I think she'll annoy everyone who's actually trying to learn.", "timestamp": "1450371074"}, {"author": "Avi", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761789765082", "anchor": "fb-761789765082", "service": "fb", "text": "Seems like she needs mental health treatment more than courses on Islam.", "timestamp": "1450370018"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761789765082&reply_comment_id=761791137332", "anchor": "fb-761789765082_761791137332", "service": "fb", "text": "→ She passed a mental health evaluation, and the judge can't really second guess that.
My memory of her is that she usually seemed reasonable and we had some positive interactions, she just also believed in witchcraft and thought we were harassing her in the spirit realm.", "timestamp": "1450370856"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761790748112", "anchor": "fb-761790748112", "service": "fb", "text": "As an alternative to being sued for housing discrimination, seems totally reasonable.", "timestamp": "1450370560"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761790748112&reply_comment_id=761791905792", "anchor": "fb-761790748112_761791905792", "service": "fb", "text": "→ She did rent to all kinds of people - I don't think there's any ground for housing discrimination. I think a hate crime was the more likely charge, but because she did the assaulting and the yelling about Islam at different times, I guess there wasn't a clear connection.", "timestamp": "1450371262"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761790748112&reply_comment_id=761794021552", "anchor": "fb-761790748112_761794021552", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Julia I kinda assumed that berated someone's religion is a de facto renter's test for religion.", "timestamp": "1450372948"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761790748112&reply_comment_id=761813487542", "anchor": "fb-761790748112_761813487542", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Nick Alunni well, I'm not a judge. But the judge in question is", "timestamp": "1450377576"}, {"author": "Alex", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761791067472", "anchor": "fb-761791067472", "service": "fb", "text": "At one point you found the house address was listed as being at risk of foreclosure or something, right? What happened with that?", "timestamp": "1450370820"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761791067472&reply_comment_id=761791860882", "anchor": "fb-761791067472_761791860882", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Apparently she got help through an organization for people about to lose their homes: http://talkingaboutsomerville.blogspot.com/.../foreclosur...
But I'm hoping that with the requirement that she disclose her assault history to potential tenants, it will no longer be viable for her to rent out the building.", "timestamp": "1450371218"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761791067472&reply_comment_id=761807115312", "anchor": "fb-761791067472_761807115312", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sad that the video is gone. It's hosted on blip.tv that disappeared in August 2015. There was an attempt to archive it [1] but the archives aren't searchable. [2] I'd be surprised if SCAT kept a copy, since they're small community access television and there's a huge amount of video they'd need to be saving.
[1] http://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=Blip.tv
[2] https://archive.org/details/archiveteam_blip", "timestamp": "1450376257"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1450370854"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761791132342&reply_comment_id=761803951652", "anchor": "fb-761791132342_761803951652", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The DA referenced those cases:
\"Here, it is clear that there is state action, as the condition is a court-ordered probation requirement, and the defendant would suffer consequences if she failed to complete the requirement. However, the object of the condition is not that she adoptor be discouraged from any religious practice\u2014or even that she attend a Muslim religious service, contrast [1996 cite](prison may not require attendance at Narcotics Anonymous meetings)\u2014but merely that she educate herself; therefore the condition neither advances nor inhibits religion. [2007 cite](drug treatment program required reverence and belief in higher power for successful completion).\"", "timestamp": "1450374059"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1450376379"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761792354892", "anchor": "fb-761792354892", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, one detail you have wrong - there was only one harassment prevention order from our household that was actually put into place. The morning after she banged on our door multiple times during the night and ran away before we could open the door, I filed against her. She filed against all four of us, but the judge only approved the orders between her and me. That was why you guys could talk to her and I couldn't.", "timestamp": "1450371707"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761792354892&reply_comment_id=761805024502", "anchor": "fb-761792354892_761805024502", "service": "fb", "text": "→ My memory was that when we went to court on 2011-08-30 it was to request harassment prevention restraining orders for the other three of us, but it was actually because she had requested enforcement of the order she had taken out against you:
\"On the 21 July after we returned from the court the tenants on the 3rd floor seem to intensify their harassment with the object of provocation. They seem to take turns to do the following jump up at various time deliberately seem to drag heavy objects with wheels along the corridor drop trash in front of my apartment and along the hallway play music to unacceptable level different times including at night jump in the bathroom seem to release electromagnetic radiation using some devise that may be difficult to detect + locate The sulfur smelling emission seem to attack my nerves joints and give headache. They seem to walk with ball of the feet both on the stairs and hallway They leave the security doors at the back open + the front door. They tamper with the windows on my floor by opening it. I have refrained from knocking on their door. I have a 12 year old child with me and she is unable to sleep because of their behavior They also disturbed the tenants on the first floor.\"
I've updated the post.", "timestamp": "1450374795"}, {"author": "Erica", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761792354892&reply_comment_id=761806646252", "anchor": "fb-761792354892_761806646252", "service": "fb", "text": "→ ohmigod, she has a CHILD living with her?!", "timestamp": "1450375911"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761792354892&reply_comment_id=761807055432", "anchor": "fb-761792354892_761807055432", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Erica: I think she didn't usually, though she did at one point?", "timestamp": "1450376186"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761792354892&reply_comment_id=761807873792", "anchor": "fb-761792354892_761807873792", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Her niece was staying with her for a while.", "timestamp": "1450376764"}, {"author": "Cory", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761793637322", "anchor": "fb-761793637322", "service": "fb", "text": "I remember reading about this and wonder if it could be the same landlord. I think the Islam class thing was well intentioned, but poorly thought out. It should be clear that the issue isn't Muslims, but a general hatred/craziness, anger management classes or counseling seems more appropriate and more helpful. As to whether it violates her religious freedom... I'm kind of on the fence, but leaning towards it does, although its true that no one was forcing her to actually practice it.", "timestamp": "1450372710"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761793637322&reply_comment_id=761804056442", "anchor": "fb-761793637322_761804056442", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Uh, it's definitely the same landlord. Same name, same address, same background.", "timestamp": "1450374131"}, {"author": "Ben", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761794101392", "anchor": "fb-761794101392", "service": "fb", "text": "What is the judge theoretically supposed to be accomplishing? Based on the history of past craziness with non-Islamic tenants (which he knew about), it seems pretty obvious that mandatory Islam courses will do nothing to deter future craziness, in fact it could even exacerbate it. Keeping her in jail would be more effective if the goal is protecting the public from future incidents of violence", "timestamp": "1450373002"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761794181232", "anchor": "fb-761794181232", "service": "fb", "text": "Two thoughts: perhaps you should contact the judge and/or DA to provide additional information as Amicus Curiae, and also, it sounds (from your follow-up details) as though perhaps religious counseling from a minister or priest of whatever faith she thinks she follows might be helpful, rather that psychiatric or psychological counseling.
Unless, of course, she's a member of a cult that actually teaches what she practices.", "timestamp": "1450373085"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761794181232&reply_comment_id=761916426252", "anchor": "fb-761794181232_761916426252", "service": "fb", "text": "→ It sounds like the verdict has already been rendered. Of course, Jeff and Julia probably didn't know it was happening until the news story of this finished court case, but I think they've probably already missed the window for providing additionally information.", "timestamp": "1450448335"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761794181232&reply_comment_id=761916660782", "anchor": "fb-761794181232_761916660782", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Daniel: at this point there's still the appeals process, but I'm pretty sure they don't consider additional information like that in this part.", "timestamp": "1450448575"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761807888762", "anchor": "fb-761807888762", "service": "fb", "text": "Nope. Establishing religion. AND unusual (religious) punishment.", "timestamp": "1450376785"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761807888762&reply_comment_id=761816556392", "anchor": "fb-761807888762_761816556392", "service": "fb", "text": "→ A punishment being \"unusual\" isn't enough in itself.", "timestamp": "1450379251"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761807888762&reply_comment_id=761816960582", "anchor": "fb-761807888762_761816960582", "service": "fb", "text": "→ It has to be cruel as well? Actually bringing religion into a sentence has whiffs of the Spanish Inquisition or Sharia law.", "timestamp": "1450379483"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761807888762&reply_comment_id=761817294912", "anchor": "fb-761807888762_761817294912", "service": "fb", "text": "→ She doesn't have to become Muslim out attend the Muslim equivalent of Sunday School. She has to take a college \"comparative religions\" style \"this is what Islam is like\" class primarily aimed at people who aren't Muslim and don't intend to become Muslim.", "timestamp": "1450379809"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761807888762&reply_comment_id=761817369762", "anchor": "fb-761807888762_761817369762", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Don't care about proportions. The recipe is calling for religion. Can't do that.", "timestamp": "1450379876"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761807888762&reply_comment_id=761817449602", "anchor": "fb-761807888762_761817449602", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Walker, I disagree with your logic.", "timestamp": "1450379968"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761807888762&reply_comment_id=761817544412", "anchor": "fb-761807888762_761817544412", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Walker: Imagine I had hurt a Muslim in my community because I believed all Muslims are terrorists. You're saying the government should not be allowed to offer me less jail time in exchange for me taking a class to learn about all the different ways people are Muslim and about how very few are terrorists?", "timestamp": "1450380111"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761807888762&reply_comment_id=761817709082", "anchor": "fb-761807888762_761817709082", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Ron: Simply stating disagreement isn't all that useful. Where does your thinking depart from Walker 's?", "timestamp": "1450380228"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761807888762&reply_comment_id=761817773952", "anchor": "fb-761807888762_761817773952", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff, your question on balancing the degree of punishment is compellingly attractive. But it's throwing in a prohibited ingredient, however efficacious. The Constitution is pretty specific. No religion in the body politic. Exclusion is not a matter of logic.", "timestamp": "1450380289"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761807888762&reply_comment_id=761817813872", "anchor": "fb-761807888762_761817813872", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman disagree. Sometimes I disagree, and let the person ask why. Not everyone cares why I disagree, and I don't want to be pushy", "timestamp": "1450380334"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761807888762&reply_comment_id=761817978542", "anchor": "fb-761807888762_761817978542", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Walker: This is a pretty subtle question in constitutional law, and the DA does disagree with you here. Well see how the appeals court rules in January.", "timestamp": "1450380443"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761807888762&reply_comment_id=761818148202", "anchor": "fb-761807888762_761818148202", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Ron: Can I ask that you not do that on my wall? If your opinion is worth reading then so is the justification; don't worry about seeming pushy in explaining why you disagree.", "timestamp": "1450380537"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761807888762&reply_comment_id=761818732032", "anchor": "fb-761807888762_761818732032", "service": "fb", "text": "→ DA? Like office lends credibility? Like Kim Davis? :) :) No, I respectfully disagree. Yes, it's a new direction in sentencing. But the Constitutional barricade still blocks it. Degree is not the issue. The issue is qualitative.
TANGENT: Cell blocks of evangelical born-again inmates have a much lower recidivism rate. Is this allowed? :)", "timestamp": "1450380835"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761807888762&reply_comment_id=761818896702", "anchor": "fb-761807888762_761818896702", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman sure.
I think as long as - in theory - a judge would be willing to do this for any religion (including atheism) then it's not promoting any one.
The spirit of the decision is, to me, obvious: avoiding establishing religion through inaction of the state to correct a landlord skirting landlord law pertaining to not discriminating against a religion.
Pressuring a Tennant on their religion absolutely is one method a landlord might use to ensure housing goes to their preferred religion.", "timestamp": "1450380974"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1450381113"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761807888762&reply_comment_id=761819285922", "anchor": "fb-761807888762_761819285922", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Elliot, yup! Which is why there is a Constitution on one hand and skid loads (literally) of legislation and case law on the other. And the current SCOTUS might very well go for religion-tainted law -- 5 to 4.", "timestamp": "1450381311"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1450381490"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761807888762&reply_comment_id=761830228992", "anchor": "fb-761807888762_761830228992", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Mac that is a tortured interpretation of the establishment clause. The judge in no way is establishing a religion. The purpose of the establishment clause was to avoid a national church. This is particularly obvious since state churches went on until the civil war.", "timestamp": "1450386544"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1450386785"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761807888762&reply_comment_id=761830718012", "anchor": "fb-761807888762_761830718012", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Don't understand \"tortured\". Establishment clause includes town $ going for nativity creches or ten commandments in public places (which go both ways depending...). A government entity requiring religious study seems straightforward.", "timestamp": "1450386890"}, {"author": "Marcus", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761807888762&reply_comment_id=761837145132", "anchor": "fb-761807888762_761837145132", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The relevant case is Hazel v. Crofoot, where an appellate court ruled that a parole officer could not force a parolee to attend a religious addiction treatment program as a condition of their continued release. (Almost all of the big name ones, like AA, have a religious component.)
There's two caveats though:
- One could argue that learning about a religion is not the same as being asked to participate in religious activities. This, at least to me, seems to have pretty strong sway, given that you can take religious studies classes in public schools, so long as they're academic in nature.
- The Supreme Court never heard Hazel v. Crofoot, so they could rule that it was wrongly decided.", "timestamp": "1450390328"}, {"author": "Sam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761807888762&reply_comment_id=761841885632", "anchor": "fb-761807888762_761841885632", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Walker, I think there is a larger issue here of what constitutes religious freedom. If my god tells me to punish people of other religions and I kill someone and then someone, can I get out of a murder sentence based on religious freedom? I certainly hope not. In-fact I would argue that in that hypothetical, it is necessary for the religious freedom of others that I be prevented from acting on my own extreme religious convictions. If defending my religious freedom infringes on the religious freedom of others then the law is overstepping. The judge is requiring that she be educated in hopes that she won't infringe on the religious freedom of others and I think it is vital that in the name of freedom of religion judges be able to do that.
Personally, I would take this point a bit further than many and say that religious convictions are not a valid justification for bodily harm against infants. I am referring to circumcision here. Infants cannot consent and IMO being a parent doesn't give you the right to harm your children even if your god tells you to. The freedom to practice your religion should end when those practices have the potential to negatively effect people around you. If this woman is using religion as an excuse to assault people then she doesn't need protection from the first amendment.", "timestamp": "1450393077"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1450393489"}, {"author": "Marcus", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761807888762&reply_comment_id=761851196972", "anchor": "fb-761807888762_761851196972", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I forgot another important caveat. The case is being heard by the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts, not the federal courts, although presumably those are still open as a potential avenue for appeal.", "timestamp": "1450398460"}, {"author": "Gabe", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761841142122", "anchor": "fb-761841142122", "service": "fb", "text": "Sometimes you have to wonder if people are going out of their way to rile people. Surely there are other classes that could have done the trick? One of our local community colleges here in the Albany area has courses titled, for example, \"Legal and Ethical Environment of Business I\" and \"Professionalism in a Diverse Society.\"", "timestamp": "1450392790"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761841142122&reply_comment_id=761859899532", "anchor": "fb-761841142122_761859899532", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I don't think those cover \"Don't push people down the stairs,\" or \"Don't yell at children that their religion is evil.\"", "timestamp": "1450403129"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761841142122&reply_comment_id=761861446432", "anchor": "fb-761841142122_761861446432", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Julia: do you think \"Modern Islam and Society\" covers that?", "timestamp": "1450404079"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761841142122&reply_comment_id=761963521872", "anchor": "fb-761841142122_761963521872", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman The real problem is that the judge wanted to do something based on her mental health, which is the actual problem, but can't because the mental health evaluation came back clear. So he has to act on the assumption that the problem is something else, in this case hatred of Muslims.", "timestamp": "1450464575"}, {"author": "Ray", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761932838362", "anchor": "fb-761932838362", "service": "fb", "text": "I agree with the emerging majority view that this punishment is (1) constitutionally permissible, and (2) not a good idea, unlikely to accomplish anything positive, and likely to disrupt the class. I comment mostly to express my sympathy for Jeff and Julia for having lived through what sounds like a nightmarish ordeal with this horrible woman. Tenants should not have to endure this.", "timestamp": "1450456752"}, {"author": "Tom", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761934789452", "anchor": "fb-761934789452", "service": "fb", "text": "Would a judge have ordered her to take a sympathetic course on witchcraft? I doubt it. Her abuse might merit punishment qua abuse, and there are existing laws against discriminating against protected classes when renting out accommodation (which you say she wasn't necessarily doing). But this feels like the judge getting involved in what she believes, which inevitably involves the courts deciding what beliefs are and aren't appropriate and what courses to order people to. That seems problematic to me.
Also, I thought I'd had bad luck with landlords, but your story really puts that in perspective!", "timestamp": "1450458197"}, {"author": "Mary", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761966815272", "anchor": "fb-761966815272", "service": "fb", "text": "You know, she might well be sane. The problem might be cultural. I think what's needed is actually an anthropologist (disinterested suggestion, as I am the *wrong* kind of anthro. for this). This lady needs to get sorted out about what part of her belief system is not generally shared here, and she needs to understand that there are things that make sense to her that register as psychotic in the US. A very minor example, from my family: Hispanic folks believe in humoral medicine: foods are \"hot\" or \"cold' in ways that have nothing to do w/ physical temperature. Oranges are cold. Oranges are therefore a bad thing to give someone who's sick with a cold -- the gesture could even be interpreted as hostile, because it would make the person sicker. I, on the other hand, think that vitamin C is an excellent remedy for colds, so I eat oranges when I have a cold but I don't offer them round -- not that it would upset people, but I've learned that my husband carefully avoids them when he has a cold. If you believe a lot in spirits and witchcraft, you're going to react to folks in some ways that look pretty zany here.", "timestamp": "1450466705"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761966815272&reply_comment_id=761967169562", "anchor": "fb-761966815272_761967169562", "service": "fb", "text": "→ When we lived above her she attributed things to us that we were very clearly not doing, like poisoning her with chemicals and radiation or trailing her. There are cultural factors here, but I really don't think that's all of it.", "timestamp": "1450467066"}, {"author": "Mary", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761966815272&reply_comment_id=761967329242", "anchor": "fb-761966815272_761967329242", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Probly not. But I suspect that there's some cultural baggage dragging on the situation.", "timestamp": "1450467194"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761966815272&reply_comment_id=762005687372", "anchor": "fb-761966815272_762005687372", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Yes, I think she was maybe hearing things that weren't there, and the explanation that made most sense to her given her cultural background was that her neighbors were practicing witchcraft against her.", "timestamp": "1450489423"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761966815272&reply_comment_id=812803054042", "anchor": "fb-761966815272_812803054042", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Witchcraft that evidently involved seem to release electromagnetic radiation from some kind of devise?", "timestamp": "1474489597"}, {"author": "Mary", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=761967069762", "anchor": "fb-761967069762", "service": "fb", "text": "p.s. I wish to add my personal testimony that I have never noticed Julia smelling of sulfur.", "timestamp": "1450466983"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=812770574132", "anchor": "fb-812770574132", "service": "fb", "text": "The SJC just upheld the ruling: http://www.bostonglobe.com/.../0LQlIRjxxEBSufz.../story.html", "timestamp": "1474475903"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=812771008262", "anchor": "fb-812771008262", "service": "fb", "text": "And here's the opinion: http://www.mass.gov/.../reporter.../new-opinions/11957.pdf", "timestamp": "1474476110"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=812771008262&reply_comment_id=812771741792", "anchor": "fb-812771008262_812771741792", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"The record does not indicate what caused tenants to seek harassment prevention orders against the defendant, but the fact that several tenants have sought such orders suggests that her behavior towards tenants is a recurring problem.\"
Too bad they didn't ask us!", "timestamp": "1474476695"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=812771008262&reply_comment_id=812772744782", "anchor": "fb-812771008262_812772744782", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Obi had several objections. My (amateur) reading of the decision, one-by-one:
* A two year jail term for pushing someone down the stairs: judge says it isn't' too harsh, based on precedent and that it doesn't \"shock the conscience and offend fundamental notions of human dignity\"
* Requiring disclosure to potential tenants: not too much of a burden, because it doesn't keep her from renting it out, and narrowly targeted at making sure prospective tenants are aware of the risk they're taking.
* Class on Islam: didn't actually consider whether this is ok, dismissed the objection because it was being raised only on appeal.
* Command to respect the rights of Muslims: not actually a requirement in itself, just clarification around other requirements.
* Request to have the only muslim juror dismissed: Obi's lawyer was unable to demonstrate that this was anything but dismissing the juror because they looked Muslim.
* Judge had previously considered Obi and Suliman and should have recused themself: not considered, because it was raised too late.", "timestamp": "1474477232"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1474521222"}, {"author": "unknown", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ unknown", "timestamp": "-1"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/761788317982?comment_id=812879406032&reply_comment_id=812879445952", "anchor": "fb-812879406032_812879445952", "service": "fb", "text": "→ She has a triple decker and rents #1 and #3.", "timestamp": "1474521277"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1474521537"}]}