{"items": [{"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=322631701101377", "anchor": "fb-322631701101377", "service": "fb", "text": "Unfairly, non-uniformly, and frequently enough, incorrectly applied. It must go.", "timestamp": "1326390358"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=322645724433308", "anchor": "fb-322645724433308", "service": "fb", "text": "While I believe there could be a deterrent value, I do not trust the state (generically, not MA, which I absolutely don't trust) to administer it well.", "timestamp": "1326391965"}, {"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=322650397766174", "anchor": "fb-322650397766174", "service": "fb", "text": "\"I don't, however, oppose the death penalty in the abstract. I think you could have a healthy society where the standard punishment for some crimes was death.\" Do you think there could be a healthy society without the death penalty? If so, and all other things being equal, would there be any preference between two societies, one with the death penalty, and one without?", "timestamp": "1326392466"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=322716024426278", "anchor": "fb-322716024426278", "service": "fb", "text": "@Paul: \"Do you think there could be a healthy society without the death penalty?\"
Certainly.
\"all other things being equal, would there be any preference between two societies, one with the death penalty, and one without?\"
It seems really unlikely that \"all other things\" would be equal if you took the death penalty out of a healthy society that had one or added it to a healthy society that didn't.", "timestamp": "1326399621"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=322785527752661", "anchor": "fb-322785527752661", "service": "fb", "text": "How healthy a society are we talking about? Like one where people didn't murder and rape each other in the first place?", "timestamp": "1326406992"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=322787484419132", "anchor": "fb-322787484419132", "service": "fb", "text": "@Julia: I didn't think much about what \"healthy\" meant here. I didn't mean anything that strong. Perhaps: I think there could be societies that I would want to live in that included the death penalty as part of their justice system and where replacing the death penalty would make me want to live there less.", "timestamp": "1326407224"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=322808271083720", "anchor": "fb-322808271083720", "service": "fb", "text": "The countries with the lowest murder rates mostly don't have the death penalty (Japan being the exception). So yes, it's obviously possible to have healthy (in the sense of not killing each other very much) societies without additional killing of people as a deterrent.", "timestamp": "1326409716"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=322864427744771", "anchor": "fb-322864427744771", "service": "fb", "text": "@Julia: that's in response to Paul, right?", "timestamp": "1326417036"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=322865504411330", "anchor": "fb-322865504411330", "service": "fb", "text": "Right.", "timestamp": "1326417166"}, {"author": "George", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=322897311074816", "anchor": "fb-322897311074816", "service": "fb", "text": "I hate the death penalty in practice and in the abstract. It is the single thing I am most certain about not wanting in our society and most unequivocally against.", "timestamp": "1326421136"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=322915347739679", "anchor": "fb-322915347739679", "service": "fb", "text": "@George: I agree that it doesn't belong in our society, and I would be in favor of completely eliminating it. The reason for my second paragraph is that I realized that my opposition is entirely practical and so there could be a society (and perhaps there have been, if I knew more history or anthropology) in which the issues I have with it do not apply.", "timestamp": "1326423366"}, {"author": "Joy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=322954947735719", "anchor": "fb-322954947735719", "service": "fb", "text": "Nothing practical is served \u2014 moreover nothing moral \u2014 by so permanently violating a person's body and spirit as is in the manner of state-conducted murders.
My medievalist colleagues and I make light that the Middle Ages never ended; this ineffectual holdover of the Anglo-Saxon/Germanic vendetta is one of the most disturbing, visible demonstrations thereof. After moving to Arizona for PhD this summer, for the first time in my life my state tax dollars are going toward legalized murder and it makes me physically ill on a routine basis. I rarely vent my opinions like this, and I really haven't said much of substance here, so I'm sorry.", "timestamp": "1326428453"}, {"author": "George", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=322956141068933", "anchor": "fb-322956141068933", "service": "fb", "text": "Ben, didn't your taxes go to NYS also? And didn't during some of that time, NYS have the death penalty? Perhaps during that time you didn't pay taxes, I don't know the exact dates.", "timestamp": "1326428641"}, {"author": "Joy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=322957881068759", "anchor": "fb-322957881068759", "service": "fb", "text": "NYS did briefly have the death penalty re-legalized by that idiot Pataki from the late 90s to the early 2000s, but it was never used before the state supreme court ruled it unconstitutional :) So I was paying taxes during part of that period, but fortunately for my over-principled conscience, NYS didn't \"legally\" murder anyone during that time.", "timestamp": "1326428894"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=323136844384196", "anchor": "fb-323136844384196", "service": "fb", "text": "@Ben: do your beliefs extend to cia assassinations? Or wars?", "timestamp": "1326461655"}, {"author": "George", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=323222354375645", "anchor": "fb-323222354375645", "service": "fb", "text": "I can't speak for Ben, but as much as I hate extrajudicial assassination, I hate the state executing prisoners more. It means the state endorses killing someone who has wronged society simply because they have wronged society. In a war, as much as I don't like it, I don't see returning fire or even preemptive bombing as being as bad.", "timestamp": "1326471979"}, {"author": "Joy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=323342161030331", "anchor": "fb-323342161030331", "service": "fb", "text": "I have similar thoughts to George. My beliefs absolutely extend to wartime killing and assassinations. Since we've been delineating between abstract and real here, I might as well too: abstractly I see them as exactly the same thing. Realistically, I think there is something of a moral hierarchy. George just laid out executions as I would; you've removed whomever it is from society. They can't continue to do whatever they were doing. Assassination to me is very nearly as bad. With that you're not even making an effort to try and take them alive. At least nominally, though, assassination is reserved for cases where that is almost impossible to realistically achieve, whereas execution is exercised upon fish in a barrel.
I'll deviate from George on preemptive bombing \u2014 I don't condone that. Wartime killing regardless of circumstances is murder to me: there is intent to do harm, even if one is hoping for a non-lethal strike. In the moment, I recognize the complications of self-defense if/when fired upon. Your murder isn't any better than the murder of the person attacking you. On the other hand, it's all part of a military/war machine, a highly advanced Foucauldian technology of murder that humanity has been honing for eons. Our technologies of coexistence, respect, and peace, by contrast, are in the proverbial stone age.", "timestamp": "1326485275"}, {"author": "George", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=323360197695194", "anchor": "fb-323360197695194", "service": "fb", "text": "I hope my comment didn't make it seem like I condoned preemptive bombing.", "timestamp": "1326487212"}, {"author": "Joy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=323424641022083", "anchor": "fb-323424641022083", "service": "fb", "text": "Gah, no, that's my fault, George. You did not at all \u2014 in re-reading your statement I mis-read what you said. Errata to my statement!!! : George and I seem to be in pretty complete agreement :) \u2014 Sorry about that :(", "timestamp": "1326493764"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1326548900851", "service": "gp", "text": "@Lucas\n The concerns apply somewhat, but I think getting rid of discretionary sentencing, in cases where we've tried it, has been negative.", "timestamp": 1326548900}, {"author": "Rick", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=328269607204253", "anchor": "fb-328269607204253", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, even assuming that you could be 100% sure that all the people killed were actually guilty (which I don't think you ever could), what would be the point? Why would you want to kill them? I don't think this is the act of a civilized society. The research shows it is not a deterrent, and revenge killing is barbaric. Also, one could argue that anyone you would think should be killed for their crime is probably mentally ill.", "timestamp": "1327144294"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=328422253855655", "anchor": "fb-328422253855655", "service": "fb", "text": "@Richard: In talking to George about this post I sorted out a condition that I think would make the death penalty make sense: a very high relative cost of imprisonment. In our society we save no money by killing someone instead of imprisoning them for life, but this is partly due to circumstance. In a situation more like the early American colonies, where they could not afford to feed and shelter someone for the rest of their life I don't see it as barbaric that they killed criminals. To make it even more extreme, imagine maybe a \"one way\" Mars colony where people are being sent to establish a society. Keeping people alive is very expensive, and you can't banish people as you might have done in the American colony example. If one colonist were to kill another, I could imagine that the only practical solution might be to execute them.", "timestamp": "1327163556"}, {"author": "George", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=328441603853720", "anchor": "fb-328441603853720", "service": "fb", "text": "I don't really view the Mars colony situation as an actual preference for the death penalty. What I think it is better described as is a willingness to kill people because of resource constraints. Would you, Jeff, really have a strong preference towards killing a criminal in the Mars colony situation vs having a lottery to kill someone assuming we modify the situation we talked about such that we can instantly rehabilitate criminals for free and don't need to lock them up (so they are just as likely to kill again as someone who hasn't killed before)? What I am trying to tease apart is if you think revenge is a valid reason to pick one sentence over another and that is what I would say is one of the things that distinguishes people who support the death penalty in the abstract. I even know people that think there are some crimes where people should just be killed for committing them, regardless of the whether they could be rehabilitated.", "timestamp": "1327165335"}, {"author": "Carl", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=328453697185844", "anchor": "fb-328453697185844", "service": "fb", "text": "\u2026
Execution teaches nobody anything, but it _does_ remove that person from society (and the gene pool). That's it's only real function.", "timestamp": "1327166578"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=328582287172985", "anchor": "fb-328582287172985", "service": "fb", "text": "@George: \"instantly rehabilitate criminals for free\"
That's very strong, but that would take away the need for execution.", "timestamp": "1327179388"}, {"author": "Christopher", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=328906767140537", "anchor": "fb-328906767140537", "service": "fb", "text": "I am intrigued by the idea that a crime could be so heinous that it must be punished, by death or some other means, completely aside from whether that punishment will deter future acts of that crime. This is removed from the emotional revenge impulse -- I think the idea is more that the criminal has violated something greater than he (e.g. the gods, God, society). Many early (savage? barbarian? uncivilized?) societies seem to have held this thinking. I'm curious why modern popular rejection of this belief is more reasonable than their support of it.", "timestamp": "1327226406"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/322600594437821?comment_id=329241400440407", "anchor": "fb-329241400440407", "service": "fb", "text": "@Christopher: are you sure these societies didn't execute people primarily for deterrence? I'm not seeing people say that the death penalty doesn't keep people from committing crimes, only that it has no additional deterrence effect over life imprisonment. These early societies couldn't really do life imprisonment.", "timestamp": "1327263660"}]}