{"items": [{"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/114987071963782993407", "anchor": "gp-1312123925832", "service": "gp", "text": "I say, stop giving the words power over you, they can stop being boxes to fit you into, and just be words. you already know that I hate 'bands' and 'no-bands', 'leader' and 'follower' feel just as unequal, even heightening who is in control. I feel perfectly comfortable saying \"I'm the lady\" if someone doesn't understand why I have arrived in front of them. I think it would be easier to reach equality by saying lady and gent than by changing to lead and follow --what is really needed is the understanding of the listener that lady and gent personas are on equal footing.\n
\n
\nI am way more uncomfortable at a gender-free contra than at a regular contra, someone won't dance with me because I don't happen to be wearing the band? people are more freaked out about gender at a gender-free contra than at a regular contra.", "timestamp": 1312123925}, {"author": "BDan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150241858131213", "anchor": "fb-10150241858131213", "service": "fb", "text": "I tend to favor B. The last bit still needs some work, but that's mostly a matter of teaching. I think that people should learn to dance both roles, but I prefer the traditional terms simply so as not to have to keep learning new ones. This goes for all other forms of dance that involve partners, too, some of which need a lot more work than contra.", "timestamp": "1312125216"}, {"author": "John", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150241867826213", "anchor": "fb-10150241867826213", "service": "fb", "text": "At LCFD dance camps and the various gender free local dance series such as the one in Jamaica Plain those people who would have the gents role wear arm bands (usually not on their arms) and the caller says arm band and bare arms. When the caller abbreviates this to bands and bares sometimes it is hard to tell the difference. Not everyone wears arm bands and if you and your partner decide to switch roles during the dance you wouldn't want them It is convenient for experienced dancers when beginners wear the arm bands so =if they are lost they can be directed. At the Seattle gender free dance they use leads and follows for terminology.", "timestamp": "1312126141"}, {"author": "BDan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150241893616213", "anchor": "fb-10150241893616213", "service": "fb", "text": "And I've seen English Dance callers just use room-specific features to identify the sides (since most dances are proper), which I find a incredibly confusing -- I don't normally pay that much attention to the hall other than where the music is. Hence my preference for the consistent use of \"men/women\" or \"gents/ladies\", no matter what role I'm dancing. I find it much easier to think, \"Okay, I'm a lady now\", than to think, \"I'm on the window side\", or, \"I'm not wearing an arm band\", and then remember what that means in terms of the dance.", "timestamp": "1312128694"}, {"author": "Cory", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150241936016213", "anchor": "fb-10150241936016213", "service": "fb", "text": "I hate that \"bands and bares\" terminology, mostly because the words are so similar I get them confused when its going fast and because I'm so used to other terminology it takes me a minute to make the connection anyway! I think leaders and followers would be a less confusing terminology, but I understand they are trying to get away from that too. But maybe bands and nones or something!", "timestamp": "1312132942"}, {"author": "Rachel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150241980376213", "anchor": "fb-10150241980376213", "service": "fb", "text": "I can see how the dance doesn't necessarily have a lead and a follow, but I feel like there is a bit of that in the way we dance it. The person dancing the man usually decides how long the swing lasts and whether there are flourishes, whether to do a courtesy turn or a turn under the arm, etc. Right? So I get confused when people say there is no leading and following. In general, I don't think I care too much what words are used as long as the dance is very welcoming to people of all genders dancing all parts of the dance. I find this easier in genderfree contexts, where no one expects me to dance the women's role unless I specifically set out to do so.", "timestamp": "1312137319"}, {"author": "Adam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150241985346213", "anchor": "fb-10150241985346213", "service": "fb", "text": "It seems that the most gender-free connotation would be \"lead\" and \"follow\" as any gender identity can play either role. To suggest that followers can lead from the following role, invites problems and by this I mean that when someone is following (gender is unimportant) and they attempt to twirl themselves out, the \"leader\" has little control over where people will stop. It is quite clear that contra dance is a lead-follow dance. If people are not comfortable with that, try contact improv or something similar. I generally dance the lead in contra and I consider my primary role to keep followers safe and on time. When I follow, I am more than happy to abdicate that responsibility and abide the lead. There are certainly fuzzy areas (e.g. back leading, if one is helping a beginner or if the leader is unsafe), but this does not affect most of the dancers out there.", "timestamp": "1312137753"}, {"author": "Melissa", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150242003636213", "anchor": "fb-10150242003636213", "service": "fb", "text": "Interesting thoughts! I like to use \"gents\" and \"ladies\" because it's the easiest way to determine where everyone is in relation to the other dancers. \"Lead\" and \"follow\" might not work for those who are just learning. Thanks for sharing this!", "timestamp": "1312139480"}, {"author": "BDan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150242011266213", "anchor": "fb-10150242011266213", "service": "fb", "text": "Adam: that might be the case if everyone were a good and considerate dancer, and everyone had the same preferences, but that is not remotely the case. As a follow, I can expect a mix of leaders who will give good and useful leads, leaders who will give no leads at all (often with limp arms and no eye contact), and leaders who will attempt to twirl my feet right off the floor (and possibly my arm out of its socket). The second case requires that I do some leading, while the third case requires what amounts to defensive dancing, sometimes actively resisting the lead. As a leader, I can expect a mix of follows who like to twirl a lot, follows who only like to twirl a little bit or not at all, and beginners who don't even know how to follow a lead for a twirl. The latter I can usually spot, but distinguishing between the first two often requires active communication from the follow to me, usually in the form of back-leading. While there is a bias towards one role giving the signals, I think it's a serious mistake to ignore the need for two-way communication.", "timestamp": "1312140351"}, {"author": "Adam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150242040796213", "anchor": "fb-10150242040796213", "service": "fb", "text": "BDan- i agree with your points and I apologize if my comments did not reflect that in in parenthetical examples that I cited. My comments were more of a general nature, and not intended to rule out helpful feedback by followers.", "timestamp": "1312143137"}, {"author": "John", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150242121841213", "anchor": "fb-10150242121841213", "service": "fb", "text": "In JP at Gender Free English we use window side/clock side and 1st/2nd diagonals. This is along the lines of what Heather and Rose does.", "timestamp": "1312149745"}, {"author": "Cory", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150242157831213", "anchor": "fb-10150242157831213", "service": "fb", "text": "lots of good points out there! I think using gents and ladies is the EASIEST terminology for \"regular\" contra dances and for beginners and experienced dancers alike. However, just because its the easiest, does not necessarily mean its the best! I don't honestly have strong feelings either way on what we should use (except the whole bands and bares confuses me! lol and I've had guys tell me that the term \"bears\" confuses them for a minute in particular ;-)
Generally I agree that there is sort of a lead and a follow, however I also think that too many people forget that the man \"offers\" a twirl and the lady chooses whether to \"accept\" it. I've definitely had more than one guy twirl me so poorly it made me dizzy, misplaced me in the dance, and was not desirable. So the next time I come upon that guy I will generally refuse the twirl (note here to any men reading this, poor twirling is not the ONLY reason I might refuse a twirl!) and sometimes guys will fight like crazy to try and make you twirl! Plus there are a lot of newer dancers who never really take a lesson, but think that the twirling is a requirement, even though they can't do it properly at all. Those in the leader role should never force a twirl, unless its with someone you know whom you know appreciates your twirling ability
anyway, didn't mean to write a book, but here's some more food for thought: my biggest pet peeve has nothing to do with twirling, its the guys (and sometimes ladies) who dig in with their thumb when holding your hand! Thumbs should not be part of the equation :-p", "timestamp": "1312152857"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312163066007", "service": "gp", "text": "Should the 'lady' and 'gent' (regardless of the actual genders of the dancers) each be 'leading' equally? I'm definitely used to the 'gent' 'leading' (again -- regardless of the actual genders).", "timestamp": 1312163066}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312163142021", "service": "gp", "text": "It's maybe worth noting that A and B are each collections of potentially-independent claims.", "timestamp": 1312163142}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/114987071963782993407", "anchor": "gp-1312164077913", "service": "gp", "text": "@David Chudzicki\n gent refers to the leading role, lady to the following role, no matter the gender of the person leading or following. all you need to do is identify that you are playing that role. its like a performance, and its time for you to disconnect from your normal role, and put on a costume that is required. performing can be fun!", "timestamp": 1312164077}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312164405455", "service": "gp", "text": "Umm, yeah. I know that. I'm just repeating the question (already implicit in Jeff's post) about whether 'leading role' is an appropriate description of the 'gent'.", "timestamp": 1312164405}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1312165928126", "service": "gp", "text": "I have almost no experience actually doing gender-free contra, but I think it's a great idea. If I had to make it up, I'd (a) divide the roles by something non-gendered, like A and B or Orange and Green or something; (b) make it trivially easy for people to switch roles, so instead of saying \"tonight, I'm a Green, and need to look for Oranges to dance with\", you'd instead just pick people to dance with, and then decide between yourselves which of you will be Orange and which will be Green for that dance.\n
\n
\nAs far as I can tell, the only reason you need to be visually different in the first place is so that people \nother\n than your partner can tell which role you are. How often does that really matter? In gendered dancing, people get used to the idea that they can use gender as a checksum, but would it really be that much harder without that?\n
\n
\nIf so, I still think that something like giving everyone \ntwo\n arm/head/whatever bands, or a double-sided one, or something, would work. I guess there's still the complexity that you want to encourage people to reset to neutral in between dances... So I think my instinct is still to avoid markers at all, and just accept that you can't tell which role someone is dancing by looking at them. How disastrous would that be?", "timestamp": 1312165928}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312166244327", "service": "gp", "text": "@Josh: you're right. Having overt indicators of the roles is not necessary.\n
\n
\nI think Danner's complaint about the explicitly \"gender-free\" contras is that they use these overt indicators, which end up being kind of a pain. ", "timestamp": 1312166244}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1312166263776", "service": "gp", "text": "I think \"lead\" and \"follow\" are appropriate descriptions of the roles in contra, for most contras and most dancers-- in my experience, the \"gent\" does lead many more slight divergences from the called activity than the \"lady\" does (even if the same two people have just switched roles), and this is partly because it is often physically easier to do from the \"gent\" position. (I am thinking particularly of leading things during the swing; the hand on the back is in a more useful place than the hand on the arm/shoulder, for moving a person, in addition to the overlap with dancers' experience of other social dance, where the \"gent\" leads much more definitely than in contra.)\n
\n
\nWe used to use belt/ no-belt in folk dances where there was really no leading going on; we had physical belts, but people generally took them off between dances, because we did many dances that didn't involve roles at all.\n
\n
\nI am a better lead than follow, in dancing of all kinds, and so it weirds me out when people think leading is \"harder\" or \"more important\" or something. But it's true that they do.", "timestamp": 1312166263}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/114987071963782993407", "anchor": "gp-1312166500803", "service": "gp", "text": "@Josh\n Gender-Free dances use \"band\" and \"no-band\" as identifiers. People will grab you as if you are a newbie if you come to them with the incorrect marker for your role. I attempted to divert the situation by placing the band on my hat, which could be swapped, that works well for a while, but who really wants to wear my sweaty hat?\n
\n
\nJust dance with whoever comes to you, and if something was wrong, work on fixing it. don't stop the dance until you get everything cleaned up and put back in their boxes again, just dance!", "timestamp": 1312166500}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312166860388", "service": "gp", "text": "More discussion is happening on facebook: \nhttps://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213", "timestamp": 1312166860}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312167073503", "service": "gp", "text": "@Josh:\"In gendered dancing, people get used to the idea that they can use gender as a checksum, but would it really be that much harder without that?\"\n
\n
\nI think it is harder. Often, as an experienced dancer, I'm in a hands four where me and my partner are doing ok but the other couple is confused. If I have a way to know which of them is supposed to be dancing which role, I know what needs to happen to fix things. Role ambiguity means there's one more thing for new dancers to need to get right.\n
\n
\n(I like switching roles, and I don't want people to have to dance only one role or the role they look like they most match. So I'm just noting that role freedom does make the dance a little harder)", "timestamp": 1312167073}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312167373424", "service": "gp", "text": "@Allison: I find leading more difficult in dance forms I'm less familiar with. I'm an ok swing follow and a bad swing lead. I think the time it takes for someone to be able to dance adequately in a heavily led dance like tango is usually much less for a follow than a lead (from talking to people learning). So I would say leading is 'harder', in that it takes longer to learn. This is much less true in contra than other dance forms because leading/following and improvisation in general is so much less of the dance.", "timestamp": 1312167373}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312168271748", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff: what's a \"Facebook\"?", "timestamp": 1312168271}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1312169016807", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff: I find both roles hard in dance forms I am unfamiliar with, but in different ways. If I'm unfamiliar with the dance, I am very likely to be a fairly boring lead-- which is okay for some follows, bad for others. As time goes on, I will get less boring. As a new follow, however, I don't have the choice to be boring-- I have to follow whatever is led, which does generally go well enough, if the lead is not too much more interesting than I would have been as a lead. If the lead \nis\n particularly interesting, though, I tend to spend a lot of time not where they were trying to get me to go.\n
\n
\nThe result is that I am \ncomfortable\n sooner leading than following; whether I am \nadequate\n is probably best left up to my dance partners. Since I usually follow the rule of \"mostly ask people to dance who are probably at or below your skill level\" I suspect the follows I choose to dance with don't mind my boring leading too much.", "timestamp": 1312169016}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312169020687", "service": "gp", "text": "Neither here nor at Facebook are people engaging much with the question of whether contra is a \"led\" dance. I think it is -- someone over at FB thinks it is. Someone else at FB doesn't want to say 'lead' and 'follow' but for reasons that appear independent of any view on whether contra is a led dance.\n
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\nWhy do I think contra is a led dance? Well, that's how we do it. And I think it works well, because (as with lots of kinds of dances), things are easier when one person is making most of the decisions.", "timestamp": 1312169020}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/114987071963782993407", "anchor": "gp-1312172443585", "service": "gp", "text": "@Allison\n Interesting choice of rules on who you ask to dance. I would choose and recommend to others the exact opposite. I know its a tangent here, but just wanted to voice that. Perhaps my view is adjusted to contra more than other partner dance?", "timestamp": 1312172443}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1312176045227", "service": "gp", "text": "I was taught that \"good social dance citizenship\" is dancing with whoever asks you, or sitting out the dance entirely if you are asked to dance by someone you just won't dance with, and mostly, but not exclusively, asking people to dance who aren't obviously better than you. That worked well in the community where I learned to dance, although the opposite rule would also work, so long as it was the one the other dancers were also following. Using the rule no one else is using is not optimal in either case.", "timestamp": 1312176045}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312199410687", "service": "gp", "text": "@David: the question of whether contra dance is led may depend on what generation you are. Jenny beer, for example, does not think it is. In this view, initiating a variation is not the prerogative of either role. I described dancing with chris at the wedding, switching back and forth between roles, and how the way we were dancing the person dancing the gent has a kind of priority for starting things. She said that this wasn't needed if you pay attention to your partner and have a good connection.\n
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\nI wonder how much of contra dance not being led is coming from a time when dancing swapped was much less acceptable, and so if the men, dancing the gent, were the only ones who could initiate variations it was much less interesting for the women.", "timestamp": 1312199410}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312199769454", "service": "gp", "text": "@Allison:\"If the lead is particularly interesting, though, I tend to spend a lot of time not where they were trying to get me to go\"\n
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\nAn experienced dancer who wants to lead something should be able to gauge their partner's ability and choose things that will be fun but not too difficult or confusing. This is important in contra dance (don't twirl people who will be confused by it) but more important in more heavily lead forms.", "timestamp": 1312199769}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150242501901213", "anchor": "fb-10150242501901213", "service": "fb", "text": "@Rachel: \"The person dancing the man usually decides how long the swing lasts and whether there are flourishes, whether to do a courtesy turn or a turn under the arm, etc. Right?\"
I do think that's how we and a lot of other people dance. Talking to jenny beer, though, she and some other people see the dance as more equal than that. The two people decide together when to end the swing, whether to twirl, etc. My guess is that becoming more of a led dance form is a change, and one that has almost entirely gone through. But perhaps more people who were paying attention a few decades ago could let me know what they remember?", "timestamp": "1312200148"}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1312200225392", "service": "gp", "text": "I don't think that contra is an inherently led dance form; I'm not sure if I'm Jenny's generation, yours, or somewhere in the middle. :^) I think that some particular contra dances may feel more like led dances, but I don't think it's universal.\n
\n
\nI'd also say that some improvisation does need one person to initiate it, which you could call \"leading\", but I don't think there's any reason it has to be the same person each time -- that only one person can be looking for improv opportunities, while the other can only be looking for their partner to signal them that it's time to improvise. I've definitely danced with (female) partners who took turns leading and following in this sense, and it worked fine. Sure, maybe not for beginners, but I don't think \"beginners do better if an experienced partner leads them\" speaks much to the question of whether the form of dance as a whole is led or not.", "timestamp": 1312200225}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150242503776213", "anchor": "fb-10150242503776213", "service": "fb", "text": "@Melissa: \"Lead\" and \"follow\" might not work for those who are just learning.\"
Maybe a little, but probably less if a caller is good at it. Get people to start dancing by saying \"find a partner\" and in our culture they will most of the time make opposite gender couples. At that point \"lady\" and \"gent\" or \"man\" and \"woman\" don't require much thinking on their part. A caller who did a lot with new dancers and 'lead'/'follow' terminology would probably start by asking the dancers something like \"find a partner, anyone you would like to dance with, either gender\" and then \"decide which of you is going to lead and which is going to follow. Then stand with the lead on the left and the follow on the right.\" But remembering whether they are the lead or the follow is probably harder than remembering whether they are a man or a woman for most new dancers.", "timestamp": "1312200441"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312200685231", "service": "gp", "text": "From a commenter on facebook: \"to suggest that followers can lead from the following role, invites problems and by this I mean that when someone is following (gender is unimportant) and they attempt to twirl themselves out, the \"leader\" has little control over where people will stop. It is quite clear that contra dance is a lead-follow dance. If people are not comfortable with that, try contact improv or something similar.\"", "timestamp": 1312200685}, {"author": "Melissa", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150242506136213", "anchor": "fb-10150242506136213", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, that last part is probably what I was thinking, especially if they've never ever danced anywhere before, plus there's SO much to teach during that first lesson! I do think it's good to be sensitive to gender issues, and I do make sure first timers know they can dance with someone of the same gender. It probably would be hard for me as a caller to break from the tradition of using those calls since it's habit now - Or maybe not, I don't know! I mean, our job as callers is to be super flexible, among other things! An interesting discussion in today's cultural climate! Love the food for thought, thanks!!", "timestamp": "1312200809"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312208627569", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff: Yeah, I basically agree with that FB commenter.", "timestamp": 1312208627}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312208863131", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff: Interesting generational difference. There's a caller (Jo Mortland--also older) in the Chicago area who mostly \"follows\" when we dance, but when she wants to lead something, she'll momentarily switch our hand position so that she's the \"lead\". I think that's neat (and entirely consistent with my view of contra as a lead-follow dance).", "timestamp": 1312208863}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1312209098437", "service": "gp", "text": "I think that FB commenter is thinking about it the wrong way: In the move \"one dancer twirls the other out\", the dancer who's twirling out is the follower, and the dancer doing the twirling is the lead -- \nfor that move\n. What I'm arguing is that those scope-of-the-move roles (a) don't have to correspond to which line you were standing in when the dance began; (b) don't have to be consistent throughout the dance.\n
\n
\nI can twirl my partner, and then she can twirl me; whoever's being twirled is following at that time. But it seems too limiting to say that only one of us can be twirled for the entire dance.", "timestamp": 1312209098}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1312209260718", "service": "gp", "text": "@David re: Jo Mortland: That sounds like exactly what I'm talking about. :^) However the partners communicate about it, whether by eye contact or hand position or whatever, it shouldn't be hard to switch who's following and who's leading for any particular figure. I just don't like the idea of nailing it down for the duration of a dance.", "timestamp": 1312209260}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312209298625", "service": "gp", "text": "@David: you mean swap from hands down to hands up?", "timestamp": 1312209298}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312209694009", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff: Yes.", "timestamp": 1312209694}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312209911831", "service": "gp", "text": "@Josh: Yes, I have no problem switching who's following and who's leading. But I also think the the person 'leading' is the person in the role often called 'the gent'.\n
\n
\nUnlike much of the \"gender-switching\" one sees, Jo's switch of hand position was often so brief as to not affect any other figures in the dance. But even then, it's clear to everyone (before anything is initiated) who's leading and who's following.", "timestamp": 1312209911}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1312210670810", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff:\"Should\" is certainly true here. \"Does\" is another matter, at least for dancers who are leading me. I assume this is at least partly that even if we are dancing a form I am relatively unfamiliar with, they may have seen me lead it a little-- which in their eyes means I should be a very experienced follow in that form, however inexperienced I actually seem by the time we are dancing.", "timestamp": 1312210670}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312210675826", "service": "gp", "text": "What about when the lady twirls the outside gent on a down/up the hall four in line?", "timestamp": 1312210675}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312210768041", "service": "gp", "text": "@Allison: I agree that accurately determining the skill level of your partner is difficult and a lot of people don't do it well. It being difficult is one of the reasons I think dancing the lead is harder than dancing the follow.", "timestamp": 1312210768}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1312211042591", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff I would say this makes following difficult as well as leading! But perhaps we are talking about reaching different degrees of skill, or being able to achieve different aims. And perhaps this lengthy conversation says \"some people find leading harder and others find following harder\" much as some people find math harder and others find playing music harder.", "timestamp": 1312211042}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312214369616", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff:\"What about when the lady twirls the outside gent on a down/up the hall four in line?\" Some exceptions can arise -- I think most of the \"exceptions\" come in neighbor interactions (where there isn't a 'lead'/'follow' relationship, even if one is a 'lead' in their own couple and the other a 'follow').", "timestamp": 1312214369}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312215268462", "service": "gp", "text": "@David:\"most of the 'exceptions' come in neighbor interactions (where there isn't a 'lead'/'follow' relationship, even if one is a 'lead' in their own couple and the other a 'follow')\"\n
\n
\nReally? I was thinking all the people talking about lead roles and follow roles would say that, say, in a neighbor swing the gent would be the lead and the lady would be the follow, even though they are not partners.", "timestamp": 1312215268}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1312215341206", "service": "gp", "text": "Thinking about this a little more, I agree that it makes a lot more difference when you have to be able to tell who in the other couple is currently leading or following, and that in fact there may be more figures where this is relevant than I was originally thinking. A ladies chain (what do gender-free callers call this?) seems like an obvious example, where you can't just switch roles on the fly, if it flows into the previous and/or next figure.\n
\n
\nBut you could, for example, switch roles each time through the dance, just by adding an extra half-turn somewhere; especially coming out of a swing. So I still don't like the idea that you have to tag one dancer as \"lead\" and one as \"follow\" for the duration of the dance. (Which may be an idea that no one's actually arguing in favor of at this point, in which case I'll shut up about it. :^)", "timestamp": 1312215341}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312216112267", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff: Yeah, I didn't mean the swing. Maybe other stuff during the dance? Or maybe I'm just wrong about that.", "timestamp": 1312216112}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312216304658", "service": "gp", "text": "@Josh: The suggestion in your second paragraph makes a lot of sense, and is very common among some groups (e.g., most of my friends who contra dance). So I don't propose that someone is necessarily 'lead' or 'follow' for the whole dance -- but at any moment, someone is 'lead' and someone is 'follow'. (And that these labels for those roles make more sense than 'gent' and 'lady'.)\n
\n
\nSo I'm pretty close to position (A) from Jeff's post.", "timestamp": 1312216304}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150242661726213", "anchor": "fb-10150242661726213", "service": "fb", "text": "Here's an idea that I just had: If the traditional lead role were called alphas and the follows were called zulus, it would be ridiculously easy to hear the difference (unlike bares/bands) and it would preserve some connotations of leading/following without being implicitly lead/follow. I personally have trouble remembering lead/follow and I think alpha/zulu would be much easier to remember, but I'm not sure if anybody else feels the same way.", "timestamp": "1312216706"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312217015211", "service": "gp", "text": "@Josh:\" I still don't like the idea that you have to tag one dancer as \"lead\" and one as \"follow\" for the duration of the dance.\"\n
\n
\nI think views on role swapping during a dance are orthogonal to this. Both sets of role names are compatible with swapping, and if my partner and I switch roles I might go from a lady/follow to a gent/lead partway through a figure.\n
\n
\nThe question about whether it is a lead/follow dance form really is one about whether the person dancing the traditionally female role can lead things or whether they have to first swap to the traditionally male role.", "timestamp": 1312217015}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150242665021213", "anchor": "fb-10150242665021213", "service": "fb", "text": "More discussion over on g+: https://plus.google.com/.../10301377735.../posts/TJ8VgTzBKCD", "timestamp": "1312217035"}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1312217415445", "service": "gp", "text": "I feel like \"lady\" and \"gent\" are harder to swap, because they have some gender implications. If an English speaker who didn't know anything about contra dancing overheard me saying \"I switched between leading and following\", they wouldn't think twice about it; if they heard \"I switched from a lady to a gent\", they'd probably find that confusing. More normatively, using language that traditionally defines gender seems to me like it reinforces the notion that leading is a Male thing and following is a Female thing.\n
\n
\nAs to the second question: I think it depends. In particular, in figures where the leading/following is \npurely\n improvisational (like who twirls at the end of a swing), I think the lead role can do the traditional \"follow\" thing (like twirl, rather than be twirled -- but still end up on the left exiting the swing). In figures where the leading/following defines where you go and who you dance with (like a ladies chain), I don't think the follow can lead without actually swapping.", "timestamp": 1312217415}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1312217450836", "service": "gp", "text": "...and I was definitely thinking more about improvisational leading and following when I first posted about this.", "timestamp": 1312217450}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1312217772629", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff-\"The question about whether it is a lead/follow dance form really is one about whether the person dancing the traditionally female role can lead things or whether they have to first swap to the traditionally male role.\"\n
\n
\nI think that there are things that the person dancing the traditionally female role can lead without role swapping (eg turning the neighbor gent in a 4-in-line), but it is still a led dance form. It isn't a purely led dance form, of course, or necessarily a very strongly led one-- but I entered the contra community as a good contra dancer (from folk dance) and a good lead but a pretty bad follow, and this was no problem at all when I danced the \"gent\" role and a big one when I danced the \"lady\" role; I could not cope with all the spinning that happened when I encountered \"gents\" who noticed that I was able to give weight and assumed I was also able to follow things, sometimes complicated things. If it was not a led dance form, and people didn't (descriptively) behave like the \"gent\" is the lead and the \"lady\" the follow, this wouldn't have happened, or would have happened also when I was in the \"gent\" role. I think it's kind of goofy to ignore this-- I can imagine a dance form like contra but where there was no leader/follower thing, but first we'd have to replace most of the contra community with, I suppose, the contact improv community. I don't see this as feasible; I see replacing the (not purely accurate) words \"gents\" and \"ladies\" with the (not purely accurate) words \"leads\" and \"follows\" as much more feasible.", "timestamp": 1312217772}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312217874420", "service": "gp", "text": "@Josh:\n
\n
\nA (me):@Josh: People can learn that \"lady\" and \"gent\" are just roles that can be inhabited by people of any gender. But yes, I agree that language without connections to gender would be better. Like \"lead\" and \"follow\".\n
\n
\nB (?): But contra isn't a lead-follow dance! So let's stick with 'lady' and 'gent'.\n
\n
\nC (?): I agree with B that it's not a lead-follow dance. But language without gender implications would be better.\n
\n
\nA (me): Uh, it's definitely a lead-follow dance, \nat least\n enough that \"lead\" and \"follow\" make sense as labels. Even in Jenny Beer's generation, isn't the 'gent' deciding when a swing ends, for example?", "timestamp": 1312217874}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1312218043321", "service": "gp", "text": "@David I... wouldn't have chosen that example. I backlead the ends of swings all the time. But it was often dancers of Jenny Beer's generation assuming that if I was dancing the \"lady\" competently in non-led parts, I would follow their leads competently as well-- but not so, necessarily, if I was dancing the \"gent\".", "timestamp": 1312218043}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312218197006", "service": "gp", "text": "@Allison: Okay, sure. Thanks for the stronger example! (Even in swings, though, I would guess you only backlead the end of the swing if it's 'necessary' in some sense -- either the lead doesn't end soon enough to continue with the rest of the dance, or maybe the swing is uncomfortable, etc.)", "timestamp": 1312218197}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312218371816", "service": "gp", "text": "@Josh:\"In figures where the leading/following defines where you go and who you dance with (like a ladies chain), I don't think the follow can lead without actually swapping\"\n
\n
\nIn don't interpret either role in a ladies' chain as leading/following. If we're using the 'leads'/'follows' terminology, then the follows pull by and the leads walk backwards during the courtesy turn. The most common variation in a chain, twirling on the courtesy turn, I've mostly seen led by the 'lead'/'gent'. But I don't see how the chain itself is lead/follow", "timestamp": 1312218371}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1312218376430", "service": "gp", "text": "@David Yeah, mostly I let the lead do it if I think they will end the swing in the right place at a reasonable time and I am not uncomfortable. Because I find contra to be a led dance form; if not, I would backlead a heck of a lot more.", "timestamp": 1312218376}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312218390001", "service": "gp", "text": "@Allison, @everyone:\n
\n
\n\"If it was not a led dance form, and people didn't (descriptively) behave like the \"gent\" is the lead and the \"lady\" the follow, this wouldn't have happened, or would have happened also when I was in the \"gent\" role.\"\n
\n
\nYeah, the word \n\"descriptively\"\n is sort of key here. I think it's pretty clear that for most people, contra is at least sort of a 'led' dance, which is all A needs to make their argument. So B's argument (I think) needs to be largely normative, arguing that even if it is like that, it \nshouldn't\n be like that, and that adopting labels which support this tendency would be a \nbad thing\n.", "timestamp": 1312218390}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312218553583", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff:\"In don't interpret either role in a ladies' chain as leading/following.\" \n
\n
\nI guess it's sort of 'lead'/'follow' in form, though not in function (when there aren't variations).", "timestamp": 1312218553}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312218578246", "service": "gp", "text": "@Allison:\"I think it's kind of goofy to ignore this--I can imagine a dance form like contra but where there was no leader/follower thing, but first we'd have to replace most of the contra community with, I suppose, the contact improv community\"\n
\n
\nThis is also my impression, and apparently that of everyone else talking here and on facebook. Over the years, though, I've heard various dancers claim contra dance is not (or is not traditionally) a lead/follow dance. Most recently jenny beer, in the car ride back from david and jenny's wedding, where the second perspective is my attempt to understand her view (though I could easily have gotten some of it wrong).", "timestamp": 1312218578}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312218813373", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff: Yeah, we of the Google+/Facebook generation mostly seem to be of one mind on this. I couldn't really tell, but maybe Danner is making the kind of normative claim I outlined a few comments back.\n
\n
\n(\"... 'leader' and 'follower' feel just as unequal, even heightening who is in control.\" )\n
\n
\nDanner?", "timestamp": 1312218813}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312219047148", "service": "gp", "text": "@David:\"B's argument (I think) needs to be largely normative, arguing that even if it is like that, it shouldn't be like that, and that adopting labels which support this tendency would be a bad thing.\"\n
\n
\nI think it's important to B's argument both whether contra dance was traditionally led and how much it is led now. My guess is that it was not traditionally led, and that this is pretty new, coming in from other dance forms. We're also somewhat biased in our sampling, in that the people who want to talk about contra dance online tend to be younger and also tend to be people who have danced a lot of it. Many contra dancers have never had a period of their lives where they danced more than once a month and they do not initiate variations. Which means to them contra dance is probably not a lead/follow form.", "timestamp": 1312219047}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312219222934", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff: One of the things I (and you too, I think) like about contra is its willingness to change and evolve. So I'm especially going to dislike B's argument if it's based on a normative claim that in general, we should dance how we used to dance.", "timestamp": 1312219222}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1312219287847", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff It's a bit confusing, because it's certainly not a lead/follow dance in the way that tango is. But it isn't \nnot\n a lead/follow dance in the way that contact improv isn't, or line dances aren't. It's a weird hybrid, everywhere I've danced it, but one where there is definitely a \"more of a lead\" and \"more of a follow\" role. It's possible that in some other time or place those roles didn't involve as much leading or following as where I am and now-- certainly we did some contra-like dances with no real leading or following in my college folk dance classes. We had a bunch of novice dancers, and we didn't tell them there was any room for improvisation in, for example, La Bastringue, and they didn't guess there was and start using it.", "timestamp": 1312219287}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312219458535", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff: There's a difference between people to whom contra is not a lead/follow form because no one does anything outside the instructions of the caller, and people to whom it's not because both dancers in a couple can and should improvise equally. I think the latter are likely to accept B's argument. \n
\n
\nBut the former--I think they'll accept that sometimes people will lead flourishes, that the person who does that more is (and probably should be) the 'gent', and also that \neven without flourishes, contra has some lead/follow tendencies\n (e.g., swings).\n
\n
\nSo I don't think that inexperienced/infrequent dancers can be a reason to accept B's argument.", "timestamp": 1312219458}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1312219650331", "service": "gp", "text": "I also want to point out that there are lots of dances (lead/follow and not lead/follow) which have room for improvisation besides whatever comes with the lead/follow structure. No one is going to argue that lindy is not a led dance form, but good lindy follows improvise on their own, and in fact there are ways for the lindy follow to decide to switch roles and be the lead. It's not necessarily all about \"the lead improvises and the follow goes along with it\" even if there is a lead and a follow.", "timestamp": 1312219650}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1312219669983", "service": "gp", "text": "\"[I] don't interpret either role in a ladies' chain as leading/following.\"\n
\n
\nWell, not in a traditional sense (that the lead is deciding what to do, and the follow is, well, following their lead), I think that's true. I meant in the sense that there are two roles and they're doing very different things, so it's important to know who is which; unlikely, say, a right hand star, when it doesn't matter whether you (or anyone else in your group of four) know which of you is currently thinking they're \"lead\" and which is \"follow\".", "timestamp": 1312219669}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312219704967", "service": "gp", "text": "@Allison: what you're saying about how theres a \"more of a lead\" role and a \"more of a follow role\" matches my experience well. I'm not sure, though, whether there are other things I should be considering that are leading jenny beer and others to say otherwise.", "timestamp": 1312219704}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1312219983113", "service": "gp", "text": "Yeah, I've definitely gotten somewhat tangled up in my own mind over the course of this about whether we're talking about structural things, like which dancer dances where and when; and flourish (good word) things, like twirls out of swings or during courtesy turns or whatever.\n
\n
\nI don't feel like contra is a lead/follow form in the structural sense, because the structure is dictated by the caller (or by convention -- coming out of a swing, the Orange ends on the right, and the Green on the left, and this isn't up to one (or both) of the dancers to decide).", "timestamp": 1312219983}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312220092809", "service": "gp", "text": "@Josh:\"there are two roles and they're doing very different things\"\n
\n
\nDefinitely. [1] So when you wrote \"I don't think the follow can lead without actually swapping\" in regards to non-improvisational leading did you just mean that the gent can't do the pull by in the ladies chain without becoming a lady?\n
\n
\n[1] There are actually some groups that do role-free contras that are really role free. People find a partner and do the dance, but at no point is there a figure where one half of every couple has to do something. I'll actually often call this way to groups that are almost all new dancers, because it's one less thing for them to think about.", "timestamp": 1312220092}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1312220352828", "service": "gp", "text": "\"did you just mean that the gent can't do the pull by in the ladies chain without becoming a lady?\"\n
\n
\nEssentially, yes -- at least for the duration of the figure; he could swap back immediately afterwards.\n
\n
\n...but I'm also not entirely sure how important that is. What does it mean for the gent to \"be a lady for the duration of the figure\", other than \"be the dancer who's pulling by\"?\n
\n
\n\"People find a partner and do the dance, but at no point is there a figure where one half of every couple has to do something.\"\n
\n
\nYeah, I was thinking about that earlier; my knowledge of contra dances and figures isn't sufficiently encyclopedic to have a good sense of how limiting it would be to say \"only symmetrical figures\".", "timestamp": 1312220352}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312220414509", "service": "gp", "text": "(aside: I'm finding it confusing to follow the conversation because it feels like posts are moving, or appearing out of order, or something. It may just be that people are commenting while I'm commenting. In which case the new post should appear above my post in progress)", "timestamp": 1312220414}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312220550946", "service": "gp", "text": "@Allison:\"it was often dancers of Jenny Beer's generation assuming that if I was dancing the \"lady\" competently in non-led parts, I would follow their leads competently as well\"\n
\n
\nDo you mean people jenny's age or who have been dancing as long as she has (30+ years)? Because there's two potential meanings of 'generation' here and I think \"when you learned this dance form\" is the relevant one for looking at changes over time.", "timestamp": 1312220550}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1312220776885", "service": "gp", "text": "Of her age. I don't usually know how long people have been dancing, though unless there simply aren't people in Chicago who have been dancing as long as Jenny, I would be surprised to find there aren't such people who assumed I could follow when I couldn't simply because I was dancing the \"lady\". It was a pretty universal thing, amongst older people dancing the \"gent\".", "timestamp": 1312220776}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/114987071963782993407", "anchor": "gp-1312237411441", "service": "gp", "text": "I'm not sure why things got this far out, but just to blur the lines a little more: \n
\n
\nMy mental thought as I lead is to 'offer'. I am offering the follow a move, and it is up to them to say yes or no. If I get too many no's, I understand that the follow either is new, or that they want a more basic dance. I adjust my offers until I get a good response. If I get a lot of yes's to my offers, then I open up my dance vocabulary to accommodate for the current music, and for what my partner gives me in terms of feedback. Basically, I plan a streetmap, and the follower/lady chooses where we go. Who is in control of that? The same thing happens in all partner dances, or should, in good improvisational forms.\n
\n
\nThe problem is informing both parties that they have these obligations, to only offer, not force; and to understand that every action has a choice(to spin or not, how fast, how much momentum to allow your partner to play with). advanced partners make the driving and navigation look fluid and amazing, but things get odd as you go towards the beginner on the spectrum.\n
\n
\nI prefer lady and gent because they both sound elegant, and they put me in character for way I am supposed to behave. lead and follow sound like you are simplifying the roles past their delicacy, making a brute-force stab in order to possibly make it easier for beginners, when actually, you might be bringing them farther away from the truth they need. perhaps the driver and navigator, or the planner and decider, are more accurate names? (NO, i do not suggest using these names!)", "timestamp": 1312237411}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1312248017938", "service": "gp", "text": "Danner: In other contexts, I believe this is called \"topping from the bottom\". :^)\n
\n
\nBut your experience definitely matches mine: A good lead doesn't just dictate the action, they offer ideas that the follow can go along with or decline. (And a good follow looks for offers, and makes it clear whether they're accepting or declining.) A bad lead can drag their partner through a flourish, but that's not how it's supposed to work.", "timestamp": 1312248017}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/114987071963782993407", "anchor": "gp-1312248965692", "service": "gp", "text": "@Josh\n I was going to use that analogy, but i couldn't decide how best to put it ;-) contra doesn't have safe words...\n
\n
\nThe beauty between the offer and the accept/decline is that there can be a bit of miscommunication, where the follow interprets the lead differently than intended. that's where the magic is, honestly. new things happen there. I've danced with amazing dancers, who followed every lead i gave perfectly, and yet there was something missing. I had seen all the things they did before (or perhaps I couldn't see the subtleties that my partner was introducing! eek!) but with someone who has just a bit of miscommunication, new moves, new styles, new interpretations are found. I love not being quite able to figure a person out, it keeps me interested. in the same manner, I attempt to be both a smooth and a confusing, so my partner cannot jump to conclusions about where the road may go, but gets there without any accidents. all of that combines into a dreamlike dance, where we don't quite know what each other is doing, but it all works out wonderfully.\n
\n
\nAhh, I could dance like that forever!", "timestamp": 1312248965}, {"author": "John", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/100633726263571579985", "anchor": "gp-1312257053586", "service": "gp", "text": "Some people just don't like the idea of being called a lady when they are a man and vice versa. When Chris Ricciotti started the Gay and Lesbian Contra Dance in Jamaica Plain (Boston) ~23 years ago (Now called Boston Gender Free Dancers) he used ladies and gents. Some people objected and that is where the arm band/ bare arm terminology started and took hold. There was a gender free dance in Minneapolis before that and they chose to not label the roles at all as is done in Heather & Rose English which also preceded this which made some dances impossible to call. As far as leading and following go, some of the traditional things can be modified. For example there is a gender free swing \"hold\" with left arm up and right below for both partners that is symmetrical; some of us do that some of the time.", "timestamp": 1312257053}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312257681160", "service": "gp", "text": "@Danner:\n
\n
\n\"I prefer lady and gent because they both sound elegant, and they put me in character for way I am supposed to behave.\"\n
\n
\nThis is where we get to the \"Sexist Terminology\" part of Jeff's title. Our culture (which is sexist) tells men and women that they should act in certain ways 'appropriate' to their gender. The fact that you think the terms \"put you in character for [the] way [you're] supposed to behave\" is due to these gender terms that we have. Since I think these norms are wrong (immoral, as well as nonsensical), I dislike the fact that we reinforce these norms by using the words \"lady\" and \"gent\" for roles that are respectively the way that women and men are traditionally supposed to behave.", "timestamp": 1312257681}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312259511582", "service": "gp", "text": "If contra wasn't a lead/follow dance in Jenny Beer's generation, that explains a lot about the \"gender-free contra\" folks' difficulty coming up with appropriate labels.\n
\n
\n'Lead' and 'follow' seem to work perfectly well now. (Or 'planner' and 'decider'.)\n
\n
\n@John: I think a \"gender free swing\" only makes sense (a) when the people swinging are dancing the same role, or (b) in a dance where the roles are completely symmetric. When the roles are naturally assymetric ('lead' and 'follow'), I don't see a reason to symmetrize the swing. The assymetric swing is actually an important cue for me, to remember whether I'm leading or following.", "timestamp": 1312259511}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/114987071963782993407", "anchor": "gp-1312259766195", "service": "gp", "text": "@David Chudzicki\n my apologies, I refer to character as in my above post where I talk of theatrics. While I agree that nobody should be held to a standard of a norm, I find it silly that it should matter if someone gets offended by a role. Taking a step back for some perspective seems appropriate, but perhaps we cannot step back far enough.\n
\n
\nLike I said before, the words have ceased to mean anything different to me, other than two variables. if there was an elegant way to say foo and bar, those words would be fine as well. My thought is to remove meaning from the words, instead of changing them. Perhaps I need more education on why the words have so much power to people, or others need more education on why they don't need to have any power at all.\n
\n
\ntl;dr: I'm in the B camp.", "timestamp": 1312259766}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312260310936", "service": "gp", "text": "@Danner: Still confused. It sounds like the words \"lady\" and \"gent\" \ndo\n have meaning to you that's related to how you're supposed to behave (\"they put me in character for way I am supposed to behave\"). Hence aren't meaningless like \"foo\" and \"bar\". (The elegant solution is \"lead\" and \"follow\".)", "timestamp": 1312260310}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312286243331", "service": "gp", "text": "@David: Because it's not 'leader' and 'follower', I would think it would be 'plan' and 'decide' instead of 'planner' and 'decider'.", "timestamp": 1312286243}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1312287531169", "service": "gp", "text": "I can't speak for Danner, but my guess is that what he meant was that the words have \nmeaning\n, but he doesn't see the meaning as problematic; and that their meaning (or perhaps just the way they sound) is more elegant than something purely functional like \"lead\" and \"follow\".\n
\n
\nJeff, looking back at your original post, you'd said (in the original B position) \"When you say 'lead' and 'follow' you accept this sexist practice of leading that comes in from swing, blues, etc.\" Why is the practice of one role leading, while the other role follows, necessarily a sexist practice? Those dances are traditionally done with one man and one woman, but then so is contra; isn't one of the premises of the question that gender shouldn't dictate what role you dance?", "timestamp": 1312287531}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312290640437", "service": "gp", "text": "@Josh: A and B are not me. They are partially opposing views I have tried to understand. But trying to be B here:\n
\n
\n\"Why is the practice of one role leading, while the other role follows, necessarily a sexist practice? Those dances are traditionally done with one man and one woman, but then so is contra; isn't one of the premises of the question that gender shouldn't dictate what role you dance?\"\n
\n
\nThe idea that men should tell women what to do is sexist. That swing, blues, etc ended up with men leading and women following is no accident: it is a direct reflection of our culture's idea that men should make decisions and women should obey them, It's good that we've progressed so that people can now dance either role, but people mostly dance the role that matches their gender and the led couple dances still reenforce sexism. Contra dance has never had a lead/follow relationship until it very recently started to borrow one from swing and blues. Throwing away the traditional equality of contra dance so that people dancing the gent's role can lead and people dancing the lady's role can follow is not only sad but unnecessary. If dance partners pay attention to each other they can each lead some things and follow others.\n
\n
\nI wonder what someone thinking along B's lines thinks about waltzes being led?", "timestamp": 1312290640}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1312291041267", "service": "gp", "text": "\"I wonder what someone thinking along B's lines thinks about waltzes being led?\"\n
\n
\nI imagine they wouldn't like it. :^)\n
\n
\nWhat are some examples of couple dances that \naren't\n led? This isn't my expertise at all, but my vague sense is that basically all Western-style couple dances involve a man leading and a woman following at least to some extent.", "timestamp": 1312291041}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/114987071963782993407", "anchor": "gp-1312293075041", "service": "gp", "text": "Just recall, just because you are leading it the traditional sense doesn't mean that you are in control. \n
\n
\nIt might also relate to what people call left and right brained thinking, where the planner thinks in a serialized stepwise pattern, and the decider creates snap judgements in the moment, using all information available in a parallel/wide looking approach. There is beauty in each of these, and some people connect better with one way of thinking than the other, and overall, I think the combination of the two is better than two of one or the other.", "timestamp": 1312293075}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312293794065", "service": "gp", "text": "@Josh: I think the scottishe (shadish) and hambo are unled. Or it may be that they are led, like many dances, when you have experienced dancers but not when you are a beginner like I am.", "timestamp": 1312293794}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312293900555", "service": "gp", "text": "My thinking (as you all can see) is somewhat similar to B's. I don't object to led dances (waltzes, contra, etc). I do object to an expectation that women will do the following and men will do the leading.\n
\n
\n(I'll admit to often having that expectation myself -- but I still object to it.)\n
\n
\n@Jeff: You're disappointed that contra (now?) has a lead/follow nature?", "timestamp": 1312293900}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312294379159", "service": "gp", "text": "@David: my actual views are neither A nor B, they are much weaker because I am not sure about any of this. I think B is disappointed while A thinks it's natural.\n
\n
\nI don't know either way.", "timestamp": 1312294379}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312294672332", "service": "gp", "text": "Agh, typo. Meant to say above I'm closer to A. Apparently can't edit from phone. ", "timestamp": 1312294672}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/117732328885787456164", "anchor": "gp-1312305145356", "service": "gp", "text": "@Danner\n : I'm curious to know what gender-free dances you've been to.Your description doesn't sound anything like what happens at the gender-free dances in Jamaica Plain, where I have been dancing for 14 years. People add or remove bands at will, and when I ask somebody to dance, I ask while lining up if they have a role preference; this is pretty much the norm.\n
\n
\nOn the more general topic: Since this is where I learned to dance, I'm accustomed to the armband/bare-arm terminology, but I agree that it can sometimes be hard to distinguish them if the caller goes fast or isn't clearly intelligible (because of sound balances or whatever). I've also gotten used to lady/gent from dancing at other places (like Concord) and I can usually remember which I am :-). As for \"lead\" and \"follow\", I notice that in discussing who's going to do what people often use these terms (\"I'd rather follow\", etc.); as long as people don't take the terms too literally (as some people, especially \"leaders\", sometimes do), it should work. I believe that is what the recently-formed Seattle gender-free dance does.", "timestamp": 1312305145}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/117732328885787456164", "anchor": "gp-1312305278361", "service": "gp", "text": "As for the physical armbands themselves: As has been pointed out (I've lost track if it was here or in the Facebook post), it makes it harder for people to switch roles in the middle of the dance. On the other hand, it makes it easier for beginners -- both because they can look for the appropriately-banded neighbors, and because the experienced dancers can help them better if they know what role they're dancing.", "timestamp": 1312305278}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/117732328885787456164", "anchor": "gp-1312305473142", "service": "gp", "text": "@Josh\n \"I have almost no experience actually doing gender-free contra, but I think it's a great idea. If I had to make it up, I'd (a) divide the roles by something non-gendered, like A and B or Orange and Green or something; (b) make it trivially easy for people to switch roles, so instead of saying \"tonight, I'm a Green, and need to look for Oranges to dance with\", you'd instead just pick people to dance with, and then decide between yourselves which of you will be Orange and which will be Green for that dance.\"\n
\n
\nThis is \nexactly\n the way the Jamaica Plain dance works. If you're in the Boston area, come join us (see \nhttp://www.lcfd.org/jp\n).", "timestamp": 1312305473}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1312305739221", "service": "gp", "text": "The \"almost\" in my \"almost no experience\" is in fact the JP GF dance. :^) I liked it the one or two times I went, but the location is very convenient for me these days. Definitely on my list of things to check out again, though.", "timestamp": 1312305739}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312307452645", "service": "gp", "text": "@Robert: I really do like switching roles mid-dance, so the armbands are a bit difficult.\n
\n
\nBut I understand that having no visual cues of role can make things difficult with beginners.\n
\n
\n@Allison\n had a neat idea (from verbal conversation, not in this thread) about signaling roles for beginner dancers: The idea is that only beginners (and perhaps their partners) would wear a visual cue as to their role, and would have an explicit cue for either role. So maybe leads would have one color armband (or whatever) on their right arm, and follows would have another color, on their left arm. More \"experienced\" dancers would not need to be wearing any cues.\n
\n
\nThis is good for a number of reasons: Since contra is very explicitly friendly to beginners, it's not harmful (actually, it's nice) to have this cue indicating that someone's a beginner. Also, visual cues to indicate role are actually much more important/useful for experienced dancers to learn the roles of the inexperienced dancers, so we can help them be in the right place. Inexperienced dancers don't actually need cues as to my role--instead, they should learn to just dance with whoever comes at them.\n
\n
\n(Allison, let us know if there's anything I'm missing about this idea?)\n
\n
\nThis could be useful for \"gender-free\" contra, but I'm really thinking of it as useful for any contra, since I think all contras should be free of gender-related norms.", "timestamp": 1312307452}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312307470251", "service": "gp", "text": "@Robert: I suspect danner's experience with armband dances is the gender free dance at neffa. That's mine, at least.", "timestamp": 1312307470}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312307907630", "service": "gp", "text": "@David: or you could have two explicit markers, and people who wanted to be able to switch roles in the middle of the dance could wear both of them", "timestamp": 1312307907}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1312308138716", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff: I was imagining two explicit markers, one for \"lead\" and one for \"follow\".\n
\n
\nIsn't the information signaled by wearing both the same is the information by wearing neither?\n
\n
\n(Or I guess maybe you're looking for an explicit signal \"I might switch roles!\" as distinct from \"I'm experienced--just dance with me--you don't need a visual cue as to my role.\")", "timestamp": 1312308138}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1312309065015", "service": "gp", "text": "I have mixed feelings about Jeff's two-marker plan. Explicitly communicating that one is likely to switch roles mid-dance can be useful, I know. But I think the most important thing I want to foster is a community norm that it is not okay to try to correct someone's dancing based on the role you think they are dancing, unless they have told you that they are trying to dance that role. I think only having markers that actually say what is going on at that moment is better for this purpose than markers that say \"later I may be doing something else\". It emphasizes the point (or what is the point to me) more. \n
\n
\nDouble-marking for people who switch roles has another drawback, which is that people will probably tend to notice the marker that \"agrees\" with the dancer's perceived gender more than they will tend to notice the other one. (Brains are weird!) Of course, a third distinct marker would avoid this problem, at the cost of further complicating the system, though.", "timestamp": 1312309065}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/114987071963782993407", "anchor": "gp-1312310455238", "service": "gp", "text": "If \n@Jeff Kaufman\n wants to switch roles AND be explicit, he should have a switchable marker, made of EL wire and a clicky button, perhaps. click the button to swap.\n
\n
\nI like the two marker beginner/making-it-explicit idea, the mentality would be \"I would like some extra assistance while i wrap my mind around this dance\", otherwise, dance with whomever is in front of you. experienced dancers, if the person in front of you has the same marker as the role you currently are playing, direct that person to your partner, and hopefully they will do the same, OR, just dance with them as the other role, and fix it later(this one shows just how advanced you are) :-)", "timestamp": 1312310455}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312310642479", "service": "gp", "text": "@David: I like double marking because then you're not putting a special marker just on new dancers, which might make them feel awkward and less welcome.\n
\n
\n@Allison: perhaps a third marker that is a visual composition of the other two markers?", "timestamp": 1312310642}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1312311569764", "service": "gp", "text": "Now I'm imagining a martial-arts style belt system. I'm trying for my contra brown belt next weekend! :^)", "timestamp": 1312311569}, {"author": "b", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109680641548243670506", "anchor": "gp-1312312278202", "service": "gp", "text": "Jeff - having danced contra intermittently in both gender-free and relatively gender-rigid communities, I've occasionally wondered if the gender-free communities actually have more of the lead/follow mentality, but I don't have a large enough sample to have an informed opinion. Do you have any thoughts on this?\n
\n
\nI'm fairly invested in the part of B that says that contra is supposed to be mostly un-led. I don't find the gendered names for the two parts especially objectionable, but at the point where they're correlation with the gender presentations of the dancers is about at chance, it does start to sound a little silly.", "timestamp": 1312312278}, {"author": "b", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109680641548243670506", "anchor": "gp-1312313893646", "service": "gp", "text": "@Danner\n: in my (limited) gender-free contra-ing, I've has almost no problems with my switching roles on the fly. As for band storage, I usually wrap it around the base of my ponytail like scrunchy when I'm not using it, but I realize that doesn't work for everybody.", "timestamp": 1312313893}, {"author": "b", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109680641548243670506", "anchor": "gp-1312314171620", "service": "gp", "text": "My big objection to associating the 'band'/'gent' role with the 'lead' indentity is that it artificially eliminates certain of role and behavior. I mean, if I happen to prefer defaulting to the 'lady'/'bare' half of a swing and a chain, why on Earth should this mean I can't take the initiative in introducing flourishes? Except for a few very specific swing- and chain-related flourishes, it seems like these issues ought to be totally separable.", "timestamp": 1312314171}, {"author": "b", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109680641548243670506", "anchor": "gp-1312314372393", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff Kaufman\n: I think I somehow got issued Jenny's generation's perspective on all this, although I'm not entirely sure how. The first time somebody complained about me backleading, I thanked her for her feedback very politely, but what was going through my head was 'Gods, if I wanted to deal with this shit, I'd dance swing or go to a fetish club. I thought this was a contra.'", "timestamp": 1312314372}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312315258574", "service": "gp", "text": "@Ben:\"I don't have a large enough sample to have an informed opinion\"\n
\n
\nI don't either; my only experience with explicitly gender free dancing is at neffa.", "timestamp": 1312315258}, {"author": "b", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109680641548243670506", "anchor": "gp-1312317201983", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff: I wonder if it makes a difference whether the gender-free dance is more about being post-gender or more about being overtly queer-aligned.", "timestamp": 1312317201}, {"author": "Alan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150243710421213", "anchor": "fb-10150243710421213", "service": "fb", "text": "I reject both A and B, because I can't answer the question of whether contra dance is a led dance form. I think all dancers are responsible for knowing the figures, making progression work, etc, and describing the \"ladies\" role as a \"follow\" or the \"gent\" role as a \"lead\" is counterproductive for that. But many of the flourishes are lead-follow. So is contradance essentially longways-progressive-duple-minor-improper country dance, where if you do what the caller says in the amount of time the music gives you (and, perhaps, care about stuff like whether your long lines are straight), or are the flourishes the essential part of contra dance? Without answering that - and my impression from reading the facebook and g+ discussion is that old farts (26 years contradancing) think the former is essential and the latter optional, and people who've started more recently think the latter is essential, so it's not unanimous - I can't answer the terminology question.", "timestamp": "1312327628"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312331973835", "service": "gp", "text": "Alan winston gave an interesting viewpoint on the trad-dance-caller mailing list:\n
\n
\n\"\"\"\n
\nThe bones and genes of contra dance are in an egalitarian dance mode where\n
\neverybody has their role in the bigger set and executes it. Everybody does\n
\nwhat the caller says, and \"leading\" and \"following\" are kinda null concepts,\n
\nexcept so far as reminding people of where they're supposed to go next, which\n
\nis typically done by whoever remembers rather than being attached to a\n
\nparticular role. (If the 1s are supposed to be doing a half-figure eight down\n
\nout of long lines, both 2s can give a gentle tun on the hand they're holding -\n
\nso no mapping of leading to ladies/gents.)\n
\n \n
\nMany flourishes and variations are definitely led (or at least suggested) by\n
\nsomeone and followed (or acquiesced to, or not avoided fast enough) by someone\n
\nelse, whether it's grabbing your same-sex neighbor for a micro-swing in the\n
\nmiddle of the hey or doing a deep dip coming out of a partner swing.\n
\n \n
\nSo the roles at base are not lead / follow, but the variations sure are.\n
\n\"\"\"\n
\n
\nSo perhaps whether the dance is lead/follow comes down to how integral to the dance you view variations?", "timestamp": 1312331973}, {"author": "b", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109680641548243670506", "anchor": "gp-1312333834567", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff: Winston's view seems both variation-heavy and anti-lead/follow, though, so it doesn't seem to be a clean \"if you're obsessed with variations, then you're into lead/follow\" principle.", "timestamp": 1312333834}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1312335661463", "service": "gp", "text": "I was just thinking about bringing up the \"is contra dance fundamentally a led dance form\" question again; and in fact I think it isn't. In particular, I very much \ndon't\n think that the variations are integral to the dance, in the specific sense that they don't change the structure of the dance, which I see as being defined by the figures. Not by the solo flourishes, nor by whether or not you skip, nor by whether or not you make a lot of eye contact, nor by whether or not you flirt, nor by whether you swing in a traditional ballroom hold or a symmetrical hands-clasped-in-the-middle hold or a romantic hands-clasped-over-your-heads hold, nor any number of other things.\n
\n
\n...which is why I agree with your original A that \"lady\" and \"gent\" are sexist terms; but I agree with B that contra is not a led dance form, and that \"lead\" and \"follow\" are also misleading terms. Thus my original preference for \"orange\" and \"green\" or \"bands\" and \"bare\" or \"shirts\" and \"skins\" or whatever.", "timestamp": 1312335661}, {"author": "Rachel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150244056231213", "anchor": "fb-10150244056231213", "service": "fb", "text": "One thing that helps, I think, is if we understand \"following\" to be active instead of passive. Then it makes sense that as a follower, you still know all the figures and are active in deciding what flourishes you do and don't do.", "timestamp": "1312373278"}, {"author": "Rachel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150244099091213", "anchor": "fb-10150244099091213", "service": "fb", "text": "dear people on google+, please do not assume that all genderfree dancing is like the neffa dances! that would be like assuming all scottish dancing is like the neffa scottish dance. things are different when there is a large portion of folks not used to the dance form. people are more flexible about the armbands at JP.", "timestamp": "1312378797"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/117732328885787456164", "anchor": "gp-1312386597514", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff:\"my only experience with explicitly gender free dancing is at neffa.\"\n
\n
\nNEFFA's gender-free sessions, in my experience, are atypical of gender-free dances, and I think that's mostly because the vast majority of dancers at NEFFA are accustomed to traditional \"gendered\" dancing; I notice comparatively few people at these sessions dancing the opposite role to their biological gender. I was pleased this year that Bob Golder called a dance with same-role sings and gypsies, to make \nsure\n that people ended up doing things they weren't accustomed to.\n
\n
\nI'll note that you've had plenty of experience with ad-hoc gender-free dancing at BIDA, where at least one dancer I know likes to switch roles on every partner swing (which is the easiest and most natural place to do it, if you're going to switch).\n
\n
\nOf course, since this started out as a discussion of terminology, then the \"explicitly gender-free\" issue does make a difference. My personal view is that people get a little too hung up on terminology, but I accept that these labels are important to many people.\n
\n
\nI don't know a whole lot about Modern Western Squares, but I do know that the GLBT MWS groups have decided to stick with \"boy/girl\" in order to try to limit confusion; but I gather that this has been a topic of some discussion, if not controversy.", "timestamp": 1312386597}, {"author": "Thom", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150244327416213", "anchor": "fb-10150244327416213", "service": "fb", "text": "Terminology: A rose is a rose is a rose. Call us anything you like, just call great dances!
Lead/Follow: Contra is a \u201cled\u201d dance form. It is led by a caller. And music. COUPLES work in tandem throughout a dance giving weight, facilitating flourishes and responding to a PARTNER. A Chain across the set is performed with twirls based upon cues given by the person chaining AND the person receiving.
I have danced both roles and I take and give cues to the twirler or pivot based on the exact moment in time that we are dancing TOGETHER. If the pivot lifts an arm to allow a twirl I either twirl with abandon or move my hand forward to continue the movement without a flourish. If I come upon a dervish I lift my arm and enjoy the breeze from the twirls. The same collaboration happens with every person I meet in the line and in all the figures of the dance. That's why it's SO MUCH FUN!", "timestamp": "1312402476"}, {"author": "Alan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150244340886213", "anchor": "fb-10150244340886213", "service": "fb", "text": "@Rachel: I certainly prefer \"following\" to be considered an active and equally responsible role, but I don't think that's the general understanding. (We wouldn't have terms like \"backleading\" if it weren't considered unusual for followers to initiate suggestions.) If we have to redefine a word contrary to both the general definition of the world and the general couple-dance-specific understanding of the word, I think it's the wrong word.) Also, completely endorse your remark about the NEFFA dance being unrepresentative. (I've only been to one gender-free NEFFA contra dance [with a fabulous band and caller] and it was nonetheless a sad mess compared to either the Queer Contra I've done on the West Coast or the JP gender-free English (which I've called a couple of times).", "timestamp": "1312403951"}, {"author": "Karla", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150244359911213", "anchor": "fb-10150244359911213", "service": "fb", "text": "I know I'm a relative newbie to the contra dance world, but here are my two cents: I prefer \"leads\" and \"follows\" to \"gents\" and \"ladies,\" but I'm not raring at the bit about it.
I do find it somewhat surprising that so many people here insist that there isn't a lead/follow relationship in contra dance.
I admit I don't know the technical usage of the terms, but there's a definite difference in dominance between the two roles. Following is *not* a passive role. But there definitely is a huge difference between the way it feels dancing each role. The ability to direct your partner into a spin is not purely the lead's prerogative, but many leads are completely resistant to the idea of being spun. The joint improvisation in the dance feels largely to be in the lead's hands.", "timestamp": "1312405833"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150244458066213", "anchor": "fb-10150244458066213", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm finding it very strange that fb and g+ have a near consensus on it being lead/follow while trad-dance-caller is so sure it's not", "timestamp": "1312414803"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1312414834723", "service": "gp", "text": "I'm finding it very strange that fb and g+ have a near consensus on it being lead/follow while trad-dance-caller is so sure it's not.", "timestamp": 1312414834}, {"author": "Alan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150244472091213", "anchor": "fb-10150244472091213", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jeff: Trad-dance-callers was founded as a forum for dialogue between contra dance callers and square dance callers (both trad and modern Western style). It's full of people who've been doing whatever they're doing for quite a long time, and tilted toward people who believe the caller is in charge. (I don't know if Dudley, at 80, is the oldest member since Culver died at 93.) And it's an email forum, not a social-networking forum, so it tends to skew older in any case. I think it's the likeliest place to find people who think that contra dancing is *in essence* about dancing the pattern the caller told you to the music and that flourishes are inessential frills. Contradancing has changed a bunch even while I've been paying attention (mid-late 80s), and I suspect one of the changes is in a view about flourishes being of the essence. (I was charmed to find a youtube series in which people teach flourishes the way couple dance teachers do.)", "timestamp": "1312416501"}, {"author": "Ben", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/113533092043162478796", "anchor": "gp-1312422081535", "service": "gp", "text": "Like many people here, I'm not really comfortable with either points A or B. As others have said, I believe that while contra can come very close to being a non-led form, this is only when dancers follow the calls exclusively; flourishes \ntend\n to be initiated (or invited) by the person playing the gent. I therefore disagree fundamentally with the contention that I see as implicit in argument B, that dancers should take the same basic approach to dancing, regardless of their role.\n
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\nThat said, I also disagree with argument A in that I don't believe that gendered terms for roles are inherently sexist. I see them as respecting the cultural history of the form, without limiting who can actually play out the roles. Like Danner, I see the roles as theatrical, but not inherently gendered (i.e., when I dance as a \"lady\" I do not affect \"feminine\" mannerisms or feel that my masculinity is in any way diminished). As a member of the traditionally privileged gender group, however, I do not feel that it is my place to declare that the terms are entirely inoffensive. For the time being, therefore, I find \"lady\" and \"gent\" to be useful and appropriate terms to use, but would be open to changing my mind if I heard from someone who was actually offended by their use.", "timestamp": 1312422081}, {"author": "Read", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150244560431213", "anchor": "fb-10150244560431213", "service": "fb", "text": "I do think there is leading and following in contra, and I've found the arguments that there isn't to be a description of what someone would like to imagine is true rather than what's actually true. That said, I think emphasizing it by calling it that may be a mistake.There's a political argument to be made _for_ calling a gender-free dance with 'gents' and 'ladies' in that a man dancing the ladies role is more subversive than a man dancing the bare-arms role, but it's a subtle point that many wouldn't get (or be interested in making). I'm quite used to 'bands' and 'bares', and have rarely had trouble hearing the difference\u2014initial consonants don't contribute much to distinguishing words, and most accents make a clear distinction between those vowels (though some definitely don't, and that's sometimes been a problem).", "timestamp": "1312426159"}, {"author": "Read", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150244565326213", "anchor": "fb-10150244565326213", "service": "fb", "text": "There is (pretty-)long-established tradition for gender-free calling in English country dance (40+ years) based on current position\u2014right file, left file, first diagonal, second diagonal. http://www.heatherandrose.org/terms.shtml I'm not a caller and haven't thought about how it would work or not in contra, but it does in English country dance. Indeed, in English, I think it actually enhances the dancing by subtly encouraging dancers to think about the overall pattern of a dance and not just her or his role in it.", "timestamp": "1312426743"}, {"author": "Alan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150244568986213", "anchor": "fb-10150244568986213", "service": "fb", "text": "\"Right file\" / \"left file\" starts to break down in improper dances. (And I don't much like a positional notation which names a position in which I might not be, although for some inconsistent reason landmark notation (\"clock\" and \"window\" at JP, \"Porch\" and \"Hill\" at Mendocino) doesn't bother me much. I've also noted that \"first diagonal\" - in the Heather and Rose sense - is pretty unintuitive once you get into a square. I applaud the H&R aim of globally-based calling and use as much of it as I can when calling for non-gender-free groups.", "timestamp": "1312427103"}, {"author": "Read", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150244641036213", "anchor": "fb-10150244641036213", "service": "fb", "text": "(Oops\u2014that gender-free English terminology is more like 35 years old.)", "timestamp": "1312437031"}, {"author": "Thom", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150244798366213", "anchor": "fb-10150244798366213", "service": "fb", "text": "Just had this thought: With some contra dancers you can change the descriptor from \"lead\" to \"push.\"", "timestamp": "1312462867"}, {"author": "Rachel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150244815106213", "anchor": "fb-10150244815106213", "service": "fb", "text": "My experience of leading/following isn't just the flourishes and isn't just with younger types. It's also things like men giving me a nudge to propel me in the right direction, etc. (Sometimes this is adds flow, and sometimes it feels patronizing.)", "timestamp": "1312464417"}, {"author": "Alan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150245109851213", "anchor": "fb-10150245109851213", "service": "fb", "text": "@Rachel: There's definitely some leading of the kind you describe in non-flourish contra dance, but it seems to me that there isn't a lead *role* as such. There's dances where the men roll the women away; where the women roll the men; where the 1s roll the 2s; where the 2s roll the 1s. Roll away (properly, in my opinion) has that little tug on the joined hand by one who isn't rolling, which is a leading move, but it just doesn't map to saying \"leads tug\".", "timestamp": "1312494421"}, {"author": "Taviy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150255437471213", "anchor": "fb-10150255437471213", "service": "fb", "text": "Bands and bares? Bands and bears? (I really want to call a gender-free dance with \"tops\" and \"bottoms\"... there's a case of a terminology where gender is irrelevant and lead or follow is not implied; whether you're a top or bottom is a matter of personal preference and consensus with your partner. Something tells me that people might not get past the inherently sexual associations of the terms :-/)
I personally came up in a community where our dancing masters - John McIntire and Nancy Rosalie - treated the \"gent\" and \"lady\" terminology as explicitly dance-based roles, separating them from gender orientation and from \"lead/follow\" implication. Personally, i'm quite comfortable dancing \"as a lady\", though cross-dressing and other gender-transgressive activities are a total turn-off to me. However, gut tells me this is a highly individual, personal thing. I think both \"men/women\" and \"lead/follow\" are too specific in their own ways, and thus my preference would be for the establishment of a conventional terminology which maintains a neutrality from both sex-based roles and \"lead/follow\", as in my experience of contradance, both are fluid constructs.
All that said, based on the way \"gent/lady\" were presented to me, i find nothing sexist about the terms, and enjoy them, when appropriately packaged/presented, as a link to the tradition which allows some flexibility of role interpretation.", "timestamp": "1313692345"}, {"author": "Dada", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150489376126213", "anchor": "fb-10150489376126213", "service": "fb", "text": "This has just come up as a question at our dance because (hooray) we now have a sensitive bisexual in our midst. There is no stress over it, but it has gotten me thinking. I have three entirely separate proposals. (full disclosure: I am admitedly old-school about this. I am open minded, yet I admit I think some of the arguments against bare nonbare make sense to me. Also, I never know if the band is for socalled gents or socalled ladies, so it confuses me. I still havent mastered dancing that way. The aforementioned John McIntire view is the one I am most comfortable with.) Tavi's comment made me realize that in contra we already have an inherent directional map by which to specify the position, but it is a slightly incomplete map. Tavi suggests top and bottom, but these already have specified meanings in contra...directions relative to the caller/music. Taking it one step further, within each minor set of four (saving minor sets of six, etc for later) there are the four positions, and it is notable that there is what I claim is a small lack of unique nomenclature for them. Yes, you can say top gent, first gent...this has the gent problem. I have never been happy with \" first\" terminology as in first corner second corner. What is first about it? first and second are not symmetrical the way I think the two pairs are. I think we do all have a dancer radar that generally keeps us always tuned into the north star of the caller. So, one proposal is to come up with a term that somehow distinguishes the \"people on the downward left slope\" and \"downward right\" slope, but I am not there yet. Alternately, and perhaps better, I think we should invent/coopt entirely unrelated words ...four for each of the four positions (I suggest charm, strange, truth, beauty, like the physicists use...randomly picking say strange for first gent, charm for first lady, beauty for second gent, truth for second lady?), and then other semisensical terms for the diagonals and for the same gender cohorts. I think the element of whimsy is what is missing...the other quarks, up down top and bottom, wouldnt work, as I stated. However, this line of thinking brought me to the suggestion of calling bands/gents protons and nonbands/ladies neutrons. Protons and neutrons as dance partners like to stay together, exchange energy in form of gluons, are always coming apart and uniting, and what's more, though almost identical in composition and frequency, there is a slight, but critical difference in mass and charge. What say ye? We can still use armbands/lights/ties but a convention that say, it is the protons that wear them (like a charge, say) would make things nice and square in my world, which you are all allowed to live in.", "timestamp": "1327868426"}, {"author": "Dada", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10150489408676213", "anchor": "fb-10150489408676213", "service": "fb", "text": "ps I misspoke...I like what tavi said about top and bottom--- however, just to clarify what I wrote, he didn't \"suggest\" them in earnest, as I possibly implied, but more mentioned them as a joke.", "timestamp": "1327869355"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1336668550726", "service": "gp", "text": "@Allison\n Reading back over this after more people are talking about wanting to use lead/follow as standard (\nhttp://www.jefftk.com/news/2012-05-06.html\n)\n
\n
\n\"I think \"lead\" and \"follow\" are appropriate descriptions of the roles in contra, for most contras and most dancers-- in my experience, the \"gent\" does lead many more slight divergences from the called activity than the \"lady\" does\"\n
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\nWouldn't this same line say that \"man\" and \"woman\" are appropriate descriptions of the roles in contra, for most contras and most dancers-- in my experience the \"gent\" does tend to be male while the \"lady\" female.\n
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\n(That is, that the names for roles match what usually happens on the floor is only a minor criterion in whether they're good.)", "timestamp": 1336668550}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1336673420858", "service": "gp", "text": "Indeed, there are many criteria for whether a naming scheme is good. I personally think that whether it is descriptive is a major one-- but that's easy to overlook, because in the real world we usually have such a variety of descriptive names available that we never consider using names that aren't descriptive. (The real world here contrasts with, among other things, research level math, where many people have real trouble naming concepts in descriptive ways.)", "timestamp": 1336673420}, {"author": "Ted", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/contra-dance-and-sexist-terminology-two-perspectives/10150241834146213/?comment_id=10153511556646213", "anchor": "fb-10153511556646213", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm with B", "timestamp": "1467743005"}]}