{"items": [{"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/114987071963782993407", "anchor": "gp-1311714136490", "service": "gp", "text": "I leave myself open by saying that I am looking and welcome evidence of God/gods. I have found no viable evidence to currently support the belief, but I shall hold out an open mind to the possibility. As such, I must invoke occam's razor and say that i must operate as if there were no gods, as it is the simpler answer, all evidence in account. If I was to obtain the extraordinary evidence that would support the extraordinary claims, I would change immediately.\n
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\nAs far as filling an important social role? I'm not so gentle here. I'm all for upholding personal beliefs, as long as they do not interfere with my ability to have my own personal beliefs. Once you move away from personal and onto religious principals, I believe that theism is dangerous, and should not be part of the moral/societal code.", "timestamp": 1311714136}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1311715543526", "service": "gp", "text": "\"I must invoke occam's razor and say that i must operate as if there were no gods, as it is the simpler answer, all evidence in account\" -- we don't do this with other beliefs. I don't say that \"I must operate as if there are not nargles stealing my socks, as that's not the simplest explanation\". Instead I just say \"there's no such thing as nargles\" and move on, of course being willing to reconsider later given new evidence.\n
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\n\"Once you move away from personal and onto religious principals, I believe that theism is dangerous, and should not be part of the moral/societal code\" -- then how do you deal with the social aspects of religion and ritual being important to many people's happiness? Many religious people have a form of religion that says very little about what your personal beliefs must be and interacts only a little with science. I'm not convinced that that's a bad thing. I'm not even convinced that highly religious people who feel a direct connection to god and have many things that they do or do not do for religious reasons are worse off for their beliefs.", "timestamp": 1311715543}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/114987071963782993407", "anchor": "gp-1311722993256", "service": "gp", "text": "So I apologize, \"We don't do this with other beliefs\" - I don't hold such a strong an opinion of god/no god to call it a belief. its just an idea that I have an opinion on. This goes with my overall philosophy, Which is to have a very low set of beliefs. my view of beliefs is that they are something that you would kill or die for, and it is my opinion that people shouldn't have too many things to kill or die for. granted, my few beliefs form a very wide foundation, but it is only made up of a few stones.\n
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\nsecond point: i'm fine with whatever you do on your own time to make you happy. ritual away to your hearts content. just don't force me to do the same. most importantly, recognize that you do something because of a personally held belief, and that it might not carry over to everyone else. --what I am worried about here is the religious grounds for persecution of many individuals. \n
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\nI think while I lump religious persecution together, I might as well open it up to all people. There are many things that people do to make themselves happy, socially and otherwise, and i'm not convinced thats a bad thing. There are other people that affect the lives of others in a negative manner, unjustifiably, and I think that should stop. the religious part is just an excuse that people hide behind to justify their actions, and i don't think that religion can ever hold that excuse. \"God said to do it\" is wrong, every time.", "timestamp": 1311722993}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1311723271556", "service": "gp", "text": "I think I'm more willing to use the word belief than you are. The things I'm trying to make an effort to list are not things I would kill or die for, just things I'm pretty sure about that have policy or other implications.\n
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\nI'm not trying to defend persecution, forced conversion, lawmaking based on religious principles, etc. I agree these are bad things. But I do want to make it clear that I'm not the kind of atheist who thinks religious practice is a totally worthless waste of time and everyone who enjoys going to church should stop.", "timestamp": 1311723271}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/114987071963782993407", "anchor": "gp-1311723732281", "service": "gp", "text": "I didn't think there were atheists like that. I haven't met any that have said that out loud. There are far too many people that waste away in front of a TV to complain about church being a waste of time :-P", "timestamp": 1311723732}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1311726569644", "service": "gp", "text": "Perhaps I just took too long to unfrontpage r/atheism", "timestamp": 1311726569}, {"author": "Holly", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103155559413084004700", "anchor": "gp-1311732908344", "service": "gp", "text": "I have definitely met atheists who say those sorts of things out loud. As a ... non-atheist, I super appreciate when atheists have room/respect for me and my religious activity. Thanks Jeff for giving voice to your kind of atheism!\n
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\nPS I don't understand Jeff's 8:29 comment, so if I'm missing any context that that provided, I'm sorry.", "timestamp": 1311732908}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/114987071963782993407", "anchor": "gp-1311767943327", "service": "gp", "text": "holly: the 8:29 comment referred to a part of reddit devoted to atheist discussion. internet atheists can sometimes get pretty angry. frontpaging refers to being able to see those discussions on your homepage or not.\n
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\nJeff and I have mostly semantic differences in opinion on this subject. if we talked about it more, i'm sure we would find only minuscule differences.", "timestamp": 1311767943}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1311773029426", "service": "gp", "text": "@Holly: I was talking about \nhttp://reddit.com/r/atheism\n, which tends to be angry, obnoxious, and inconsiderate. It's shown by default to new users of \nhttp://reddit.com\n and I was saying it took me a while to hide it.", "timestamp": 1311773029}, {"author": "Neil", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/107204461218920856688", "anchor": "gp-1311794280554", "service": "gp", "text": "Jeff, you only say \"there's no such thing as nargles\" because you are taking a mental shortcut, subconsciously invoking occam's razor. You do not know that nargles do not exist, though you can reasonably determine that it is so unlikely that you can operate as if there are no nargles stealing your socks. So you're right: \"We don't do this with other beliefs\", but we should. (apologies if that comes across sounding harsh, it's not meant to)", "timestamp": 1311794280}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1311801597404", "service": "gp", "text": "@Neil: not only are nargles not stealing my socks, neither are heffalumps nor is snuffleupagus. The number of imaginary things not stealing my socks is infinite, or at least very large. When you say that we should do this with other beliefs, you're telling me that I should go through all the imaginary things that could be stealing my socks and say: \"I have found no viable evidence to currently support the belief that X is stealing socks, but I shall hold out an open mind to the possibility. As such, I must invoke occam's razor and say that i must operate as if there were no X, as it is the simpler answer, all evidence in account\", no? That sounds like way too much work.\n
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\nOccam's razor is not a shortcut; it's the only reasonable way to deal with the problem of huge numbers of potential explanations.", "timestamp": 1311801597}, {"author": "Neil", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/107204461218920856688", "anchor": "gp-1311806150851", "service": "gp", "text": "Jeff, perhaps I was not clear, but I think if you read again you'll see I was not calling Occam's Razor a shortcut (and in fact agree with your last statement), but that saying or thinking \"there's no such thing as X\" unless it's proven is a shortcut and that I was suggesting that your subconscious might be doing something analogous Occam's Razor. (granted that last part was definitely not clear)\n
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\nI am \nmost definitely\n not saying that you should attempt to catalog the infinite improbabilities. All you need do is find the first few most probable causes, and then conclude that it is most likely that Julia is stealing your socks and giving them to people in need of socks. =D However, if I come to you and tell you that nargles are stealing you socks, you can tell me that you don't believe in nargles, or that there are thousands of more likely explanations, but what you can't say is that \"there's no such thing as nargles\" because I'll call you on it and you won't be able to prove it. And yes, I realize I'm being a pendant here.\n
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\nIn the case of religion where so many believe in a thing, and which there is no way you could know if it (they?) existed, I think it's important that you go to the long form and say it's possible, if unlikely.\n
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\nAlso, don't get me wrong, metal shortcuts are useful, as long as you realize that you're making them.", "timestamp": 1311806150}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1311823978380", "service": "gp", "text": "@Neil: I'm not sure there is a difference is between \"I don't believe in nargles\" and \"there's no such thing as nargles\". Either way I anticipate the same future experiences, all not involving nargles.\n
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\n(Also, rereading your post, I think I misunderstood what you were saying with occam's razor before)", "timestamp": 1311823978}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/belief-listing-project-atheism/10150238282011213/?comment_id=10151433622551213", "anchor": "fb-10151433622551213", "service": "fb", "text": "I, too, don't believe that there are any gods. I do think that dance fills important social roles and that many people are happier for being dancers. Trusting that your dance partner will take care of you, at least for the duration of the dance, and that you are part of a larger community dance, is very powerful. Shared dance experience turns out to be a very effective thing to build communities around. I think I might be happier if I danced more often. Belief must follow evidence, and in this case I have a fair bit of evidence.", "timestamp": "1372903404"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/notes/jeff-kaufman/belief-listing-project-atheism/10150238282011213/?comment_id=10151434348861213", "anchor": "fb-10151434348861213", "service": "fb", "text": "For me, God is wrapped up in intuition.
Many people do not understand or appreciate intuition, the subconscious, unknown knowing that gets us into and out of so many situations without our realizing it. There are many competitive sports wherein the athlete is not intellectual. Wrestling, fencing and skiing all go by too quickly to think over. But if the image of a goal is maintained in the intellect, the intuition guides the body into doing all the right things. It's how most animals without our cerebral cortex get on in this world.
Creativity: many problems we undertake to solve are just too big, too complex for our intellects. Creative technique: think exhaustively on a problem before going to bed. Writing everything down is a good way to get it out of your head. Literally sleep on it. Frequently by morning, the powerful parallel processor of our intuition has created a solution. The shower is a place where the intellect is on idle, and the intuition can be heard. And frequently is.
Faith is ubiquitous because it works. Believing you've got a friend is a powerful, intuitive aid to surviving and living well. Challenging this faith in others is attacking their very viability. Thus this challenge is the root of the kill for/die for that plagues so much of our world.
Ever anthropomorphize a toy into a playmate? Ever believe God exists in all things in the universe? Intellectually, I believe God is an intuitive construct for giving us courage and helping us focus on a lot of good and necessary things in life. Emotionally, I talk to God all the time. It's a small mind that cannot encompass two diametrically opposed views at the same time.", "timestamp": "1372951767"}]}