{"items": [{"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629525453822", "anchor": "fb-629525453822", "service": "fb", "text": "I think the question remains open, but I also think we should have a community social norm that a caller should post something like a Creative Commons license which grants commercial use and requires attribution. I am unclear on how to do that when copyright is unclear though.", "timestamp": "1380288228"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629526396932", "anchor": "fb-629526396932", "service": "fb", "text": "@Andrew: \"Creative Commons license which grants commercial use\"
One strange trend I'm seeing is callers using the \"BY-NC\" creative commons license which only gives permission for non-commercial use. But calling at dances where you're being paid is the most common case.", "timestamp": "1380289176"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629527085552", "anchor": "fb-629527085552", "service": "fb", "text": "Is it still commercial use if the caller isn't being paid but the band is? I weakly suspect that trend is from callers not wanting to have a mental association between Contra and large corporations.", "timestamp": "1380289698"}, {"author": "Adam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629527135452", "anchor": "fb-629527135452", "service": "fb", "text": "It would seem that to have one's dance called by someone else would be something to be happy about- provided that credit is given to the dance choreographer.", "timestamp": "1380289775"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629527275172", "anchor": "fb-629527275172", "service": "fb", "text": "I have read of and seen the common etiquette of attributing dances. This is probably as far as the concept will reach in contra. In fact, the article was slanted towards getting as many callers as possible to call your dance. This is one of those interesting gray lines in law.", "timestamp": "1380289917"}, {"author": "Will", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629529336042", "anchor": "fb-629529336042", "service": "fb", "text": "I can't recall what the source was but I remember doing some research on this a while back with respect to posting online dances written by others. I believe the conclusion was that a contra dance is not able to be copyrighted in the US but could be in the UK because of differences in the law. Be that as it may, I think it's still a good etiquette to ask the author before posting a dance on a website as a semi-permanent page or reference. (Some authors have books they want to sell and do not want the full text of their dances available online.)
I do think it's fine to list the full dance description in discussion pages, such as FB and Yahoo Groups, and on videos descriptions, crediting the author(s) whenever possible.
Finally, coming out of my development of my Caller's Companion software ( http://callerscompanion.com ), I'm working on a long-term project with CDSS to establish an online database of contra dances. We already have a test site up and running but it needs some additional work along with permission from the authors.", "timestamp": "1380291050"}, {"author": "Stephanie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629532180342", "anchor": "fb-629532180342", "service": "fb", "text": "I say \"yes\". Many people have called dances that Nathaniel wrote. As far as I know, he is always pleased to discover that someone has called his dance.", "timestamp": "1380293237"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629532394912", "anchor": "fb-629532394912", "service": "fb", "text": "I would agree that attributing the dance, when calling it, is common courtesy. I think you're looking for an issue that doesn't really exist. Though I hadn't thought of the point about selling books, therefore preferring no online publishing. However, as both a dancer composer and caller I generally feel that part of the \"community\" feel is that folks generally contribute their work. This goes not only for composers of both music and dance but performers. The pay, generally, isn't enough to make dances real moneymakers for the performers so there's a contributory part of their work, as well. I've heard stories of ASCAP showing up at dances trying to figure out copyright and royalty issues. In the end they figured out there just wasn't enough money involved to be a concern.", "timestamp": "1380293502"}, {"author": "Will", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629532829042", "anchor": "fb-629532829042", "service": "fb", "text": "Regarding licensing agencies, I always though the reason they gave up was because most tunes were in the Public Domain, but Sue Songer corrected me on this issue in reference to my FB \"Note\" on Putting on Techno Contra dances ( http://on.fb.me/1d2R4iM ). Sue wrote:
\"It is true that trad music is Public Domain, but most contra dance bands today play many, many tunes that are under copyright. In fact, it would be really hard to find a contra dance where only trad tunes were played. Quite a number of these copyrighted tunes are also registered with one of the licensing agencies (ASCAP, BMI, SOCAN, PRS, and others), all of whom have reciprocity when it comes to collecting fees. I would venture a guess that it would also be hard to find a dance where a licensed tune was not played. Whether ASCAP chooses to go after the venue for a licensing fee is another matter. But in any case, I think that musicians should be aware that much of the music they are playing is probably under copyright and could be registered as well.\"", "timestamp": "1380293770"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629533487722", "anchor": "fb-629533487722", "service": "fb", "text": "Thanks for sharing the clarification. I guess I had this in mind when I wrote my comment. It was clear to me that many tunes were copyrighted. The particular story I'd heard, from a dance organizer many years ago, left me with the impression that it was more work than it was worth to figure out which tunes had a current copyright and what royalties were due. Particularly given the relatively small amounts of money dealt with at a traditional dance.", "timestamp": "1380294413"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629533737222", "anchor": "fb-629533737222", "service": "fb", "text": "There isn't any problem \"calling\" someone's dance, but publishing it online is another matter. Some callers publish their dances in booklet form and they should not be denied the opportunity to recoup their publishing costs, if not make a tiny profit. For this reason, we should be careful about sharing dances in a public forum unless the author has already given permission either explicitly or implicitly by publishing their dances online.", "timestamp": "1380294666"}, {"author": "Will", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629534051592", "anchor": "fb-629534051592", "service": "fb", "text": "It's way off topic but for what it's worth, anyone producing, calling or DJing contra dances that use recorded music (alternative, techno, whatever...) other than their own, should have ASCAP/BMI licensing. Lisa Greenleaf and others usually obtain this through CALLERLAB", "timestamp": "1380294854"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629535578532", "anchor": "fb-629535578532", "service": "fb", "text": "Will maybe off topic, but good to know. That's another hurdle for expansion in that direction. While I love trad, I thnk the techno market is way under served, and could lead to more growth in contra.", "timestamp": "1380295968"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629537025632", "anchor": "fb-629537025632", "service": "fb", "text": "Techno is inevitable, given the changing tastes of the younger market.", "timestamp": "1380296804"}, {"author": "Will", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629537574532", "anchor": "fb-629537574532", "service": "fb", "text": "While there may be \"demand\" for techno style dances, there are some issues related to doing them. In particular, for techno dances that only use pre-recorded music, there is key element lost - the interaction between band, caller and dancers - and the ability to build the excitement across a set with live music. We strive at our dance to have new dancers who are drawn by the name \"techno\" come back for all the great traditional music as well. For those reasons and others, the organizing committee for the Downtown Amherst dance, most of whom are in the 20s, was unanimous in deciding to only have a techno dance every 6-8 weeks.", "timestamp": "1380297220"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629537784112", "anchor": "fb-629537784112", "service": "fb", "text": "Will, great! No, I was not suggesting that techno would take over, only that it is fast becoming a fixture of the dance. I totally agree with your board's choice for frequency of techno.", "timestamp": "1380297407"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629538198282", "anchor": "fb-629538198282", "service": "fb", "text": "Will I prefer live music for a number of reasons, and agree with your choice for the Amherst dance. While, like most activities, people come once or twice, but don't become regulars, I note that very rarely do I see new comers who seem disappointed with the experience. I would hope in places such as Boston and the five college area that dances would spring up on campuses. I think that techno would be a good way to have that happen.", "timestamp": "1380297760"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629538752172", "anchor": "fb-629538752172", "service": "fb", "text": "If someone is trying to claim copyright on a contra dance, they: (a) are going to have a hard time popularizing it (b) are missing the point (c) will see me write a computer program and publish literally every possible contra dance and public domain them.", "timestamp": "1380298211"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629539505662", "anchor": "fb-629539505662", "service": "fb", "text": "@Ron: \"write a computer program and publish literally every possible contra dance and public domain them\"
There may be too many for that. How many possible contra dances are there? Would that take an impractically large amount of space? If we limit to dances that have 8 8-count figures and each figure is one of 20 standard ones, that's 8^20 or 1 quintillion. If practical limitations of progression etc limit us to 5 figures per space that's still 1 billion.", "timestamp": "1380298924"}, {"author": "Will", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629539765142", "anchor": "fb-629539765142", "service": "fb", "text": "Just for fun: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~ref/random-contras.html", "timestamp": "1380299167"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629541232202", "anchor": "fb-629541232202", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, it's a solvable complete set. I bet we could reduce it to 100 million. And at that size, simplified notation, 1kb allottes per dance, easily stored on a 1TB hard drive, cheap server, dynamically generated html, and $10/mo hosting.", "timestamp": "1380300314"}, {"author": "Ryan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629541292082", "anchor": "fb-629541292082", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff: if there are 20 standard moves and we allow repetition, it would only be 20^8 = 25.6 billion? And if we don't allow repetition, it gets as low as 20C8, which is only 125,970. Or did I do my combinatorics wrong?", "timestamp": "1380300353"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629541556552", "anchor": "fb-629541556552", "service": "fb", "text": "In any event, the point I'm making is that even if you could copyright basic dance moves, which there's plenty of precedence that says you can't, it'd be counterproductive to getting the dance to spread, would effectively limit the number of dance halls that would welcome a person as a caller, and ultimately be defeatable by technology.
Also, in a few more iterations of Moore's Law, same may be true of music.", "timestamp": "1380300532"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629541591482", "anchor": "fb-629541591482", "service": "fb", "text": "A few more iterations, and prose, too.", "timestamp": "1380300592"}, {"author": "Nicholas", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629541835992", "anchor": "fb-629541835992", "service": "fb", "text": "I think the best analogy for dances would be recipes: there are a bunch of ingredients and instructions (most all are in use in other recipes) and individual chefs perform them in their own slightly distinct way. And it's black letter law that recipes are not copyrightable. What is, however, is the text used. For example, if I write \"Fry an onion, lightly saut\u00e9 the garlic, add the tomatoes, wait till it bubbles, then simmer for half an hour\" and you write a book with that recipe and the exact same words, you'd violate my copyright. But if you wrote \"Dice an onion and put in pan on medium high, add chopped garlic, two minutes later add tomatoes, heat till near boiling, then set to low for 30 minutes\", I have no claim at all. As well, if I list \"1 can tomatoes, 1 onion, 1 clove garlic, oil\" I can't copyright that, because a basic list of ingredients isn't original enough to be copyrightable. The same, it seems, would be true for dances. The moves, like ingredients, are basic and used in thousands of other dances (recipes). (If someone invented a new move, that could count, but it seems more like only the demonstration of that would be copyright, while the move would fall under patent protection, and once performed publicly once, that's no longer possible.) What would be copyrightable are the calling notes (but not the ideas behind them, just the words) as well as the specific way of calling the dance, assuming that was original (and you'd have to specifically copy/repeat every word; left-hand star vs. star left would likely be enough to secure yourself against a claim).
Anyway, IANAL, so don't trust me on anything, but you're probably fine.", "timestamp": "1380300818"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629544630392", "anchor": "fb-629544630392", "service": "fb", "text": "@Ryan: \"it would only be 20^8 = 25.6 billion\"
You're right: it's 20^8 not 8^20. That's much more practical.
\"if we don't allow repetition ...\"
Lots of contras have multiple circles, swings, lines, and balances.", "timestamp": "1380302979"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629544969712", "anchor": "fb-629544969712", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff Kaufman I suspect you could look at 1,000 dances and get a pretty good idea of frequency of repetition, and build that into a likely contra combinations model. Probably a 90% solution.", "timestamp": "1380303206"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629545114422", "anchor": "fb-629545114422", "service": "fb", "text": "#missingthepointguys", "timestamp": "1380303344"}, {"author": "Ryan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629545174302", "anchor": "fb-629545174302", "service": "fb", "text": "On the one hand it is certainly possible to generate that many and publish them. On the other hand, it's nice to know that there are so many possible dances that we might get to try!", "timestamp": "1380303398"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629547240162", "anchor": "fb-629547240162", "service": "fb", "text": "@Ron: the number of possible contra dances gives us a rough estimate for the originality of one.", "timestamp": "1380304950"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629547624392", "anchor": "fb-629547624392", "service": "fb", "text": "@Nicholas: \"the best analogy for dances would be recipes\"
Legally I think recipes and choreography are not treated the same. Note that http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#102 has \"choreographic works\" but no category that looks like it would contain the content of a recipe (as opposed to a particular description which would fall under (a)).", "timestamp": "1380305179"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629547669302", "anchor": "fb-629547669302", "service": "fb", "text": "Only if you can accurately determine the % of danceable dances out of the total possible.", "timestamp": "1380305195"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629547838962", "anchor": "fb-629547838962", "service": "fb", "text": "@Ron: That seems like something we could estimate.", "timestamp": "1380305297"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629550323982", "anchor": "fb-629550323982", "service": "fb", "text": "How? It essentially needs to understand flow programmatically. There's just far too many variables.", "timestamp": "1380307216"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629555952702", "anchor": "fb-629555952702", "service": "fb", "text": "I think dances are more like chord changes than recipes - constrained short strings of items from a limited set. Chord changes cannot be copyrighted. I am guessing that you are discussing this out of curiosity, and not because there is a choreographer who copyrights contra dances and requires permission.", "timestamp": "1380311960"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629557509582", "anchor": "fb-629557509582", "service": "fb", "text": "@Ron: I don't think flow is that hard to understand programmatically. Wouldn't keeping jerk (the time-derivative of acceleration) under a threshold be a sufficiently good estimate of flow?", "timestamp": "1380313448"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629557644312", "anchor": "fb-629557644312", "service": "fb", "text": "@Andrew: \"more like chord changes than recipes - constrained short strings of items from a limited set\"
Mostly, but the space of chord changes is smaller and has been much more thoroughly explored. It's possible that no one comes up with novel chord progressions anymore but people are still writing novel dances.
\"I am guessing that you are discussing this out of curiosity, and not because there is a choreographer who copyrights contra dances and requires permission.\"
Right.", "timestamp": "1380313523"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/629524765202?comment_id=629557669262", "anchor": "fb-629557669262", "service": "fb", "text": "@David: \"Wouldn't keeping jerk (the time-derivative of acceleration) under a threshold be a sufficiently good estimate of flow?\"
I bet you do better just to make a list of which moves can follow which.", "timestamp": "1380313557"}]}