{"items": [{"author": "BDan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/271812882851746?comment_id=271827419516959", "anchor": "fb-271827419516959", "service": "fb", "text": "I've seen that graph before, but I'm not sure that it really says that much about actual income inequality. Since it only measures by percentile/ventile, it doesn't say anything about the actual relative incomes involved. The 70th percentile might make only twice as much as the 1st percentile, and the graph would still be the same.", "timestamp": "1318515741"}, {"author": "Alex", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/271812882851746?comment_id=271830679516633", "anchor": "fb-271830679516633", "service": "fb", "text": "I agree that inter-national inequality is also a big problem (and so do most of the protesters) and I believe that the corporate culture being protested is connected to the culture in the US that contributes to such inequality. Additionally, this graph doesn't seem to illustrate cost of living differences in different countries.", "timestamp": "1318516291"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/271812882851746?comment_id=271831669516534", "anchor": "fb-271831669516534", "service": "fb", "text": "@Alex:
\"this graph doesn't seem to illustrate cost of living differences in different countries\"
It adjusts for cost of living: \"\"\"The household income numbers are all converted into international dollars adjusted for equal purchasing power, since the cost of goods varies from country to country. In other words, the chart adjusts for the cost of living in different countries, so we are looking at consistent living standards worldwide.\"\"\"
\"I believe that the corporate culture being protested is connected to the culture in the US that contributes to such inequality\"
I don't think I understand what this means.", "timestamp": "1318516462"}, {"author": "Alex", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/271812882851746?comment_id=271838099515891", "anchor": "fb-271838099515891", "service": "fb", "text": "Oh, huh. I think the reason I thought that it didn't factor CoL in was because I couldn't fathom that the richest people in India are no better off than the poorest in America. Something seems false about that. Do you have a better idea of what that is?
To me, the broad target being protested is \"capitalism without ethics\". That is at the root of corporate malfeasance, perpetuated economic racism, and economic inequality, AS WELL as the frivolous spending of money and political power (both federal and individual) that could be better spent to correct global inequality. While it is great for you to contribute heroic portions of your income to charity, those sums are piddling compared to what could be done through the magnitude of the federal budget. That's not to see the Fed might directly donate to Oxfam, but I'm sure there are more ethical uses for the money than military funding and corporate subsidy.", "timestamp": "1318517555"}, {"author": "Bronwyn", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112209325452034727224", "anchor": "gp-1318517569905", "service": "gp", "text": "I don't want to argue with the general point of the graph you show. But it also got me thinking from a data analytic point of view - is income (even adjusted somehow for purchasing power, which also seems like a tricky problem) the best way of measuring prosperity? What about cultural norms on possessions, differing definitions and stigmatizations of poverty, necessity for money in general (availability of social services and education for free), etc? Does having equal purchasing power really equate to equal prosperity? Obviously having sufficient money for necessities is important to prosperity (defined as... happiness? something else?), but that's not what the graph gets at. Though I don't dispute there is a problem with international inequality, I think this is too one-dimensional a way of looking at it. Not that I have much in the way of better ideas.", "timestamp": 1318517569}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/271812882851746?comment_id=271844736181894", "anchor": "fb-271844736181894", "service": "fb", "text": "@BDan: What would you like to see?", "timestamp": "1318518624"}, {"author": "BDan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/271812882851746?comment_id=271849482848086", "anchor": "fb-271849482848086", "service": "fb", "text": "I'd like to see the vertical axis measured in actual income (in international dollars). Probably on a logarithmic scale.", "timestamp": "1318519360"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/271812882851746?comment_id=271872042845830", "anchor": "fb-271872042845830", "service": "fb", "text": "@BDan: that would be interesting. It wouldn't change the ordering of the curves, but could dramatically change their shape.", "timestamp": "1318522736"}, {"author": "Bil", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/271812882851746?comment_id=271883872844647", "anchor": "fb-271883872844647", "service": "fb", "text": "Amusing, but it's really not possible to make a reasonable comparison. I earned 100x what most of my students' families \"earned\" when I was in Kenya. But as nomads, they didn't use money much. They had their camels, they roamed the desert, life was good.", "timestamp": "1318524442"}, {"author": "Bil", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/271812882851746?comment_id=271884372844597", "anchor": "fb-271884372844597", "service": "fb", "text": "The only important thing is to make our country better.", "timestamp": "1318524516"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1318525717753", "service": "gp", "text": "\"we are the (global) 1%\"?\n
\n
\nMore seriously, I remember something (I think from Paul Krugman at an LSE lecture) on the idea that increasing trade between two countries can simultaneously decrease inequality between the countries (and overall) while \nincreasing\n inequality within \nboth\n countries.", "timestamp": 1318525717}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/271812882851746?comment_id=271914559508245", "anchor": "fb-271914559508245", "service": "fb", "text": "@BDan: what about this graph: http://sccs.swarthmore.edu/.../world_income_distribution.png (from http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/globalincometrends.pdf )
If I'm reading it right (it's complex) It makes the same claim: that the poorest people in rich (OECD) countries are at about global percentile 70%, but it also tells us what incomes the percentiles correspond to.", "timestamp": "1318528464"}, {"author": "BDan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/271812882851746?comment_id=271926392840395", "anchor": "fb-271926392840395", "service": "fb", "text": "What do those abbreviations mean? I'm not familiar with them. In any case, it looks like the 40th percentile has about 10 times the income of the 1st percentile, and the 90th percentile has about 10 times the income of the 40th percentile, and then theres a lot of room above the 90th percentile. The 70th percentile makes about 30 times what the 1st percentile makes, while the 99th percentile makes about 12 times what the 70th percentile makes... but then the 999th permillile makes many times more than that. And I would guess that the top percentile of the U.S. is all in the top permillile of the world.", "timestamp": "1318529894"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/271812882851746?comment_id=271932559506445", "anchor": "fb-271932559506445", "service": "fb", "text": "@BDan: I think the abbreviations are groups of countries. I don't recognize all of them, and I can't find their definitions.
OECD is close to what I think of as the first world: www.oecd.org/membercountries
ECE is eastern and central europe
LAC I think is latin america and carribean
EAP I think is east asian and pacific
SAS probably south asia
AFR probaly africa", "timestamp": "1318530719"}, {"author": "Jim", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112932743371759723915", "anchor": "gp-1318534724430", "service": "gp", "text": "Thanks for the meme! A commenter at the site where you got that graph said it would be useful to see one showing, not income, but total wealth. Got any idea how that would differ from this one?", "timestamp": 1318534724}, {"author": "Kevin", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/271812882851746?comment_id=271970902835944", "anchor": "fb-271970902835944", "service": "fb", "text": "To me, OWS isn't just about the 99% having it rough, it's about the 1% using illicit and illegal (unconstitutional) leverage to keep it that way, through political-economic structures. Status quo government policy, in so many ways, enlarges the challenges faced by the 99%. That policy is controlled by monied interests. These interests likewise control media, another institution that is historically charged with giving voice to all people, but which is instead in many cases serving the particular agendas of its owners (by definition, wealthy individuals).
My grievance arises from the fact that economic wealth is being leveraged for political power, which is in turn, circularly, used to consolidate wealth. Representation in government, in \"news\" media, and ultimately in the financial system, is being purchased by those who can afford the price tag. A basic ideal our cultural ancestors fought for in establishing this United States polity is that representation IS an entitlement. It is not a thing which must or can be purchased under any system I would describe as a democracy.
The system in which those types of representation is purchased is called plutocracy; rule by the wealthy few. I protest the disproportionate control of political, financial, and media structures by the plutocrats of America, not just the fact that the wealthiest 400 have more money than the poorest 60%. (http://www.politifact.com/.../michael-moore-says-400.../ note: at the bottom of the explanation is the validation for the 60% figure.)
Mayor Bloomberg is evicting the protesters. They will be allowed to return after the park is \"cleaned,\" but they will not be permitted to bring tents or sleeping bags, and will not be allowed to lie down in the park, effectively ending the occupation. Everybody with a telephone, please call New York City's complaint line at (212) NEW-YORK--that's (212) 639-9675. http://www.nypost.com/.../wall_street_protestors_will...", "timestamp": "1318535560"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/271812882851746?comment_id=271998682833166", "anchor": "fb-271998682833166", "service": "fb", "text": "@Kevin: I agree that rich people having outsize influence over policy and law is bad. When you say things like \"media ... is historically charged with giving voice to all people, but which is instead in many cases serving the particular agendas of its owners\" it sounds to me like you view this as a new problem, a recent change. Consider early 20th century newspapers and hearsts heavily political use of his papers. This problem of money buying power is one we have had for a very long time, and has so far proved very difficult to solve (campaign finance reform morass etc). Do we have new approaches?", "timestamp": "1318539308"}, {"author": "Kevin", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/271812882851746?comment_id=272040339495667", "anchor": "fb-272040339495667", "service": "fb", "text": "@jeff: you're right its not a new problem. you're right it's very difficult to solve. i think what's different is transparency: recently, the big players screwed the 99% over in very publicized, very well-documented ways, and so public understanding has shifted. i think many of the occupiers are people who would have occupied 5 years ago, but i think the public's response and support is greater than it would have been 5 years ago. thus, i think the ability of this movement to grow to critical mass and have sweeping impacts is greater than in the recent past.
i do think the plutocracy problem IS getting worse, resulting from the growing income disparity, and successively worse erosions of democratic integrity. i think the media problem is getting worse, due to pandering from increased political polarity. so yeah... i think the problem's bigger.
i have a somewhat limited perspective on how it's been in the past, so maybe i should be careful making that comparison. ultimately, i think its irrelevant to the movement. the protest isn't about the shift, its about the status quo.
i suggest you go to dewey square, general assembly is at 7pm, you'll get to see and be part of the decentralized decision-making process. its something i think everybody in boston should go check out, its pretty astounding to be in the middle of it. (general assembly is also a time of day when nobody is engaged in direct action, so if you're uncomfortable protesting or aren't sure you want to associate yourself with the movement, that's the ideal time to show up.", "timestamp": "1318545784"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/271812882851746?comment_id=272047622828272", "anchor": "fb-272047622828272", "service": "fb", "text": "@Kevin: ok; I think I'll go look.", "timestamp": "1318547137"}, {"author": "Frederic", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118156077148469167305", "anchor": "gp-1318554746559", "service": "gp", "text": "And yet, China and India have lower Gini coefficients than the US does. We have the highest coefficient of any first world country besides Singapore.", "timestamp": 1318554746}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1318561821036", "service": "gp", "text": "If you took the whole EU and considered it as a country, its gini coefficient would be closer to that of the US (though I think still lower). Like with many measures of income inequality, larger countries are penalized.", "timestamp": 1318561821}, {"author": "Bil", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/271812882851746?comment_id=272173832815651", "anchor": "fb-272173832815651", "service": "fb", "text": "Totally rad to see you at Occupy Boston! Y'all come on down on Sat for the march! Let us make the United States the country that it should be!", "timestamp": "1318572796"}]}