{"items": [{"author": "Leah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/967846251232?comment_id=967847463802", "anchor": "fb-967847463802", "service": "fb", "text": "", "timestamp": "1542168276"}, {"author": "Ian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/967846251232?comment_id=967847593542", "anchor": "fb-967847593542", "service": "fb", "text": "When YTS had some questions regarding related issues, we put in an application for help through Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts. You have to pay an application fee and a lawyer in the program then has to \"adopt\" you (which, I think, is why we never really got answers to our questions\u2014I don't think we were ever adopted), but it could be worth a look nonetheless.", "timestamp": "1542168386"}, {"author": "Sophia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/967846251232?comment_id=967883825932", "anchor": "fb-967883825932", "service": "fb", "text": "Dance groups are often insured, right? Would the kind of insurance they usually have cover civil lawsuits in cases like these?", "timestamp": "1542200826"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/967846251232?comment_id=967883825932&reply_comment_id=967885487602", "anchor": "fb-967883825932_967885487602", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The main kind of insurance dance groups have is https://www.cdss.org/.../insura.../group-liability-insurance
I don't know if this includes slander/libel insurance. Even if it does, the main effect this would have would be to spread the cost of a libel suit among all the different groups that get insurance through CDSS. Much better to figure out what we can/can't legally share and follow that.", "timestamp": "1542202258"}, {"author": "Sophia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/967846251232?comment_id=967883825932&reply_comment_id=967886046482", "anchor": "fb-967883825932_967886046482", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman definitely agreed, but I suspect this is the kind of situation where cases are not especially clear cut, and groups might end up being sued even if they are following (or trying to follow) the law.", "timestamp": "1542202758"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/967846251232?comment_id=967904404692", "anchor": "fb-967904404692", "service": "fb", "text": "I think there are many questions that need to be discussed to balance the concerns of a safe dance floor vs. legal aspects of this. Safety advocates would likely suggest that moves to ban people and warn other groups are obvious, but perhaps such moves do run afoul of the law. It's not as obvious as it should sound.
There is much debate, for example, of whether a person can be banned for harassment or assault*outside* the dance - like a bar or even a date. And yes, whether it is appropriate to tell other groups that we banned a person, thus you should ban them too, and whether one can take in that information from elsewhere even if such a person has yet to do anything inappropriate at your own dance.
That said, I'm not sure it's slander or libel if you have documented evidence and a paper trail of actions that led to a person being banned at your dance, and I think that letting other organizations know that it happened and be aware, isn't necessarily libel or slander either. But then again I have zero legal knowledge on any of that.
But then again, I'd have some trouble allowing a known serial sexual abuser on my dance floor knowing that this person has a documented history elsewhere, but a record of perfect behavior at my own dance series. You *know* it's bound to happen, but it hasn't yet. The best way to keep a dance floor safe is to ban that person before he can abuse someone, but OTOH, that person can sue you for something because he has yet to do anything bad at *your* dance. *But* dance organizations are totally responsible for providing a safe dance experience.
That's why, like everything, there is nuance that is worth discussion and asking the questions.", "timestamp": "1542212422"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/967846251232?comment_id=967904404692&reply_comment_id=967905417662", "anchor": "fb-967904404692_967905417662", "service": "fb", "text": "→ While there are lots of questions about how safety committees should work, this isn't what I'm trying to get into here. I'm trying to focus specifically on legal aspects: what are the legal constraints that shape our potential solutions?
\"There is much debate, for example, of whether a person can be banned for harassment or assault*outside* the dance\"
There is debate about whether this is something organizers should consider (I think they should) but have you seen anyone claiming organizers are not legally allowed to consider this information in deciding whether to ban someone? (I had thought this was entirely legal.)
\"But then again I have zero legal knowledge on any of that.\"
This is why I think it would be useful to get advice from someone who does.
(Overall your post focuses on *using* information from other dances, but my understanding is the tricky bit legally is around *distributing* information to the other dances.)", "timestamp": "1542212908"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/967846251232?comment_id=967904404692&reply_comment_id=967905642212", "anchor": "fb-967904404692_967905642212", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Yes, it's the legal aspects that I'm really concerned about, and maybe I didn't get that across. And I think that the using info from other dances gets to the distribution of that information - if you receive information, someone distributed that.
Quite honestly, the only people I've heard suggest that organizers should not consider information from other organization comes from those abusers who have been banned. But those are also the same people who are also likely to sue an organization for slander or libel. And I'd also like to know if they have a legal basis for doing that, or whether that would be thrown out if they have a history of past abusive actions.", "timestamp": "1542213082"}, {"author": "Laura", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/967846251232?comment_id=967906275942", "anchor": "fb-967906275942", "service": "fb", "text": "I know why people avoid getting the police involved, but for bad enough actors, I don't think we should be as afraid to do this as we tend to be.", "timestamp": "1542213549"}, {"author": "Sarah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/967846251232?comment_id=968192497352", "anchor": "fb-968192497352", "service": "fb", "text": "This is relevant for the REACH Panel in coordination with other EA groups. If you find out anything, I would really appreciate hearing about it!", "timestamp": "1542308159"}, {"author": "Philip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/967846251232?comment_id=969464019212", "anchor": "fb-969464019212", "service": "fb", "text": "Can you organize dances through something like Meetup.com? We have a tennis group through meetup.com, and when the organizer had to ban a player for bad sportsmanship, he just added a comment and banned him.
If you just comment that a person is banned for \"bad behavior\" without accusing the person of harassment, that should cover you legally.", "timestamp": "1543118586"}]}