{"items": [{"author": "Uma", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531061943586364", "anchor": "fb-531061943586364", "service": "fb", "text": "I view lady/gent as the titles of roles, similar to lead/follow. I consider myself a gent when I am dancing that role and don't think it's weird to be called one. The word \"gent\" is much less common in ordinary speech than \"lady\", and I'd be curious to know how men who dance the ladies role feel about the terminology.", "timestamp": "1349493654"}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1349493845362", "service": "gp", "text": "I use \"lady\" and \"gent\" as dance-role-only terms at contras; it does not feel strange to me to call someone I presume (or know) to be a woman a gent, nor to call a man a lady. \"Contra gent\" and \"contra lady\" come across particularly clearly as unrelated to the dancer's actual gender identity to me.\n
\n
\nIn my college folk dance classes we had \"folk dance women\" and \"folk dance men\", so this language is a big step down in awkwardness for me, in that it does not contract to terms I use in my daily life. Perhaps this suggests that for older dancers the distinction between gent and man or lady and woman is harder to make, cognitively; I think there is some generational skew in terms of who uses \"gents\" and \"ladies\" outside the confines of a contra dance.", "timestamp": 1349493845}, {"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531064536919438", "anchor": "fb-531064536919438", "service": "fb", "text": "As someone who frequently dances both roles, I have no objection to being called the lady. It's the traditional name for the role that I'm dancing, and any alternative names for the roles sound contrived. I will admit that I'm largely indifferent to any aspects of gender beyond anatomy.", "timestamp": "1349494250"}, {"author": "Bronwyn", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112209325452034727224", "anchor": "gp-1349494275679", "service": "gp", "text": "I don't find any of those terms weird for any people in the context of contra. \u00a0When dancing, I disassociate \"lady\", \"gent\", \"man\" and \"woman\" from the physical/mental/social gender of the people dancing. \u00a0I'm fine with being called \"gent\" or \"man\" when dancing that role. \u00a0I look at it just as an established way of giving direction and don't read any more into it. \u00a0I'm sure that's not true for many people though, especially those new to dancing.", "timestamp": 1349494275}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1349494881526", "service": "gp", "text": "For me lady/gent is fine, man/woman is not, and lead/follow is best. ", "timestamp": 1349494881}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531076853584873", "anchor": "fb-531076853584873", "service": "fb", "text": "Likewise. I swap frequently, more often in standard dance role contexts than in \"gender-free\" contexts. I'm used to being called the lady, and I make joking comments about when I \"forgot what gender I was\", and that's just part of the territory for me. However, I understand that many people have stronger feelings about gender than I do, and would be uncomfortable with this. I'm not sure I really like any of the solutions.", "timestamp": "1349497197"}, {"author": "Jack", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109674141422733742628", "anchor": "gp-1349497258954", "service": "gp", "text": "@David Chudzicki\n: But it's really not lead/follow. \u00a0That relationship doesn't really exist in contra dance -- at least not in the way it exists in almost all couple dance. \u00a0We are dancing two different roles. \u00a0In couple dance, the follow doesn't generally do much initiating of moves. \u00a0In contra there are some moves done by the lady and some by the gent. \u00a0Thinking about some of the phrases that get used typically in describing a contra move... \u00a0\"Ladies, lead half a hey, gents follow them across the set\" sounds really strange termed with L/F -- \"Follows, lead half a hey, leads follow them across the set\"\n
\n
\nLadies and Gents are the roles we're dancing, termed that way because those were traditionally the folks dancing them, when those terms were more in use in everyday speech. \u00a0Because of this, I have for most of the time I've been calling used ladies and gents almost exclusively (though I do use ring and circle as Jeff described in the original post...rings don't move, circles do). \u00a0Not to mention the fact that men and wo-men can sound way too much alike -- particularly if the caller doesn't\u00a0enunciate\u00a0well...\n
\n
\nBack to terms... \u00a0 The use of leads and follows, I think, also carries the strong implication that the \"gent\" always leads moves and the \"lady\" should follow them, where in contra, it's actually quite possible for the \"lady\" to initiate a flourish too, and in either case, a lead should be something that can be refused too...but that's a soapbox for another time. \u00a0:-/\n
\n
\nIf you want to get completely away from gendered terms, I'd rather deal with the (rather clunky, but usable) convention of \"bands\" and \"bare arms\". \u00a0At least they are also ways of describing a dance role and doesn't imply control resting in the hands of either role, they're easy to hear, and they scan the same as far as number of\u00a0syllables...\n
\n
\nOk...that was more than I had planned to write, but I think it at least make a start at getting my thoughts on this out. \u00a0", "timestamp": 1349497258}, {"author": "Katherine", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/111274538329832838041", "anchor": "gp-1349498090777", "service": "gp", "text": "I don't have a strong preference for lady/gent or man/woman. I tend to use lady/gent when calling (at least for contra), but when I've just switched roles, I tend to say to myself \"I'm a man, I'm a man\" or \"I'm a woman, I'm a woman\" until I think I can remember it.\n
\n
\nI don't think lead/follow fits the dance form particularly well, and I don't like it when people use it. (Partially because I personally don't like dancing with gents who think they are supposed to strongly lead.)\u00a0", "timestamp": 1349498090}, {"author": "Danni", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531082686917623", "anchor": "fb-531082686917623", "service": "fb", "text": "If you really want to keep a strong distinction between gender roles and dance roles (which I 100% support!), why not use words to describe the dance roles that do not have gender connotations? I'm not sufficiently familiar with contradance to suggest what terms might be used instead, but surely there is some other way to describe \"Role A\" and \"Role B\" without using gendered words (which \"lady\" and \"gent\" are, whether you intend them to be or not).", "timestamp": "1349498716"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531092400249985", "anchor": "fb-531092400249985", "service": "fb", "text": "The problem I have is that we really would be transforming contra dance if you want to use terms other than \"gent\" and \"lady\". What other names to we use? I don't like \"lead\" and \"follow\" because contra dance is not a lead/follow form of dance like couples dance, it's a community dance where we all dance together. And yeah, gent/lady really is the title of a role, and I think people get all in a tizzy because they imply gender even when not meant to use this way. That's one thing I emphasize in contra dancing - contra terms generally don't mean what they mean in real life. For example, shouldn't \"proper\" be better than \"proper\"? Yet the vast majority of our dances are improper and we like it that way. Also, \"active\" vs. \"inactive\" very rarely describes actual degree of activity during a dance. It's just a name and I think it's best to think of it that way instead of thinking of it in the outside-the-dance term. To this date, I have never seen anyone chain up the ladies using real chains. ;)", "timestamp": "1349501240"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531092406916651", "anchor": "fb-531092406916651", "service": "fb", "text": "Oliver -- many people do that, but all the terms used have their own issues, and people who like or dislike them. Historically, these have been gendered roles for a long time, and everyone knows who you mean if you say \"ladies\" and \"gents\". If you want to choose anything else, the names generally aren't randomly selected, but they're chosen to be clear which is which. Like \"lead\" and \"follow\", which bother some folks because they imply that the (usually) male role is more primary than the other. I like that one, but in discussions of the different titles there's a lot of disagreement. Or, popular at many gender-free dances, \"armbands\" and \"no armbands\". That one cleanly avoids any reference to gender, but I personally just find them clunky titles. Also, it makes it difficult for some (including me) who like to swap roles with their partners within a single dance. You either have inaccurate signals (neither of you wearing an armband), or you have to try to swap the band as well as your actions and position in the dance, which is really awkward and just an extra thing to worry about all the time.
It seems like you ought to be able to just pick any two names, but it's not that easy, because if you just choose \"apples\" and \"oranges\", people don't readily know which one refers to which role. You can teach your community any terms you want -- but it takes time, it confuses people who learned to dance anywhere else, and it insulates you from the broader dance world, so it's generally not done. It's also difficult for traveling callers to keep straight, as you'll very often have a different person teaching each night that you hold a dance. Terms that dancers and callers from elsewhere will understand are usually understandable because A) they reference gender, B) they reference leading (with \"leaders\" as the traditionally male role), or C) they assign some other visible signal, which dancers have to take on and off any time they change roles. People have all sorts of opinions about which terms are best, and what tradeoffs are worthwhile, but there are definitely tradeoffs with any term you can choose.", "timestamp": "1349501248"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531093446916547", "anchor": "fb-531093446916547", "service": "fb", "text": "On a mostly unrelated note, Perry, \"active\" and \"inactive\" were very descriptive of the activity levels in older dances. It was quite common for the actives to go up and down the aisles, and swing, and do contra corners, etc. while the inactives just held up their hands for the allemandes, or acted as posts for the actives to go around. It's not reflective of activity level in modern dances because modern contradancers and callers have generally decided it's much more desirable for all the dancers to be active, but that wasn't always the case. Historical context is similar for proper and improper \u2013 proper was the preferred form for almost all dances at one time, but the dance has evolved and the terms remain. I guess you could say the same for terms like \"gents\" and \"ladies\" \u2013 at one point the roles and genders went together almost perfectly, but who dances each role has changed faster than the terms that define them.", "timestamp": "1349501482"}, {"author": "Bob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531094650249760", "anchor": "fb-531094650249760", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm in favor of using the traditional terms \"gent\" and \"lady.\" It names a dance role, not a gender. You should know which one you are dancing.
I have not ever switched myself, but I've been in a dance and unexpectedly a person of the 'wrong' gender comes to me, as part of a same-sex couple. I have to quickly determine whether I - or they - are out of place, or if it's a gender switch and everyone is in the right place.
Upon making this determination, I will often say something like \"Oh you're a gent\" to a woman, or \"You're a lady\" to a man. This is just saying it to myself to clarify it quickly in my own mind, and I hope it doesn't offend anyone.", "timestamp": "1349501792"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531096990249526", "anchor": "fb-531096990249526", "service": "fb", "text": "Bob, the rule of thumb here is to dance with whoever comes at you. Those of us who swap intentionally are often annoyed when people try to \"correct\" us. If you can tell you're dealing with beginners, you may need to correct them...but even so, the moment they come at you for the first move is usually not the best time for it. I try to find another convenient moment to lead them into the positions they should have found before. The point I'm trying to make is that you don't really have to determine a person's role in that moment \u2013 you just have to dance with the person who comes at you as though it were the person who should have been there, whether it is or not.
I should probably shut up now, though, because I'm talking way more than anyone else in the conversation.", "timestamp": "1349502388"}, {"author": "Bob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531099366915955", "anchor": "fb-531099366915955", "service": "fb", "text": "Good advice, Dan. Thanks.", "timestamp": "1349503032"}, {"author": "Matthew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531106970248528", "anchor": "fb-531106970248528", "service": "fb", "text": "I definitely prefer lead/follow. Lady/Gent isn't so bad, but if I feel like following more than leading the gendering of the roles is somewhat dissuasive. \"If you're over here that means you're female now\" as I got last night is right out.", "timestamp": "1349505000"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531225736903318", "anchor": "fb-531225736903318", "service": "fb", "text": "I'll add one more reason to use ladies/gents that I haven't seen mentioned yet: women/men are too easily misheard in a hall with less than ideal sound conditions. Which is a lot of places.
While I like the reasoning that people might think that a chain always follows the term \"ladies\", I also think that it might indicate a lack of variety in the dances being called in that dance hall if that is the only interaction that ladies have and having them do something else is a surprise.", "timestamp": "1349528421"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1349529084709", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jack\n\u00a0\"it's really not lead/follow. \u00a0That relationship doesn't really exist in contra dance ... In contra there are some moves done by the lady and some by the gent.\"\n
\n
\nMy understanding is that people who think of contra as lead/follow base that on the dynamic of flourishes, not the dynamic of initiating larger moves. \u00a0If you're curious, there was a long discussion of this about a year ago:\u00a0\nhttp://www.jefftk.com/news/2011-07-31\n
\n
\nI lean towards \"it is a lead/follow dance, in terms of leading and following of variations\" but try to see both sides.\n
\n
\n\"Follows, lead half a hey, leads follow them across the set\"\n
\n
\nYou'd have to make some adjustments to the language, but it's not so bad: \"lead\" and \"follow\" aren't that important terms. \u00a0Even with \"ladies\" and \"gents\" I would probably have phrased that as \"ladies start half a hay by the right\" or \"ladies pass right for half a hey\". \u00a0The (now nearly historical outside of a few hard-to-change singing squares) adjustment of \"we're not calling just to the gents any more\" is far larger.\n
\n
\n\"The use of leads and follows, I think, also carries the strong implication that the 'gent' always leads moves and the \"lady\" should follow them, where in contra, it's actually quite possible for the 'lady' to initiate a flourish too, and in either case, a lead should be something that can be refused too\"\n
\n
\nI think this is true in most lead/follow dance forms (swing, blues, etc).", "timestamp": 1349529084}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531237003568858", "anchor": "fb-531237003568858", "service": "fb", "text": "@Perry, Daniel: If someone used 'active'/'inactive' for a modern equal turn dance I would find it strange.", "timestamp": "1349529707"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531240653568493", "anchor": "fb-531240653568493", "service": "fb", "text": "@Chris: I don't think I've had trouble distinguishing \"women\" and \"men\". They sound quite different [1], though not as different as \"lady\" and \"gent\". Now, \"partner\" and \"corner\" are a real problem.
[1] They differ in initial consonant, stressed syllable, number of syllables, and even the final vowel, which is usually reduced in \"women\" but not in \"men\".", "timestamp": "1349530302"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531241680235057", "anchor": "fb-531241680235057", "service": "fb", "text": "I think we REALLY need to get out of using the terms \"lead\" and \"follow\". These terms simply do not apply to contra dance. It moves contra dancing further from its roots as a community dance.", "timestamp": "1349530472"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531246516901240", "anchor": "fb-531246516901240", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, I've definitely have had the experience of misunderstanding a caller who uses women/men. You're talking about differences that are apparent when someone has clear diction and enunciates clearly, which is not always the case. I've been doing this a while and I know that sometimes I slip and slur or smush a word sometimes. Add in sound issues in the hall and the words become indistinguishable.", "timestamp": "1349531090"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531246746901217", "anchor": "fb-531246746901217", "service": "fb", "text": "Perry, are there callers who are using lead/follow now? I haven't heard anyone use that at a dance.", "timestamp": "1349531132"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531248623567696", "anchor": "fb-531248623567696", "service": "fb", "text": "No, just dancers. But still, I don't like the terms being used.", "timestamp": "1349531393"}, {"author": "Gabe", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531276720231553", "anchor": "fb-531276720231553", "service": "fb", "text": "Terms of art.", "timestamp": "1349535768"}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1349536180791", "service": "gp", "text": "Lucas, at the Oakland Queer Contra, that move is called \"bares, chain across\" (or rarely \"bands, chain across\", for the same historical reason you mention). I do think people sometimes parse \"ladies chain\" as a phrase that can't be decomposed, though, based on the level of confusion that a call for gents to chain inspires.", "timestamp": 1349536180}, {"author": "Barry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531287883563770", "anchor": "fb-531287883563770", "service": "fb", "text": "i prefer to just have fun while dancing rather than engage in academic culture criticism, call me whatever you want, just do it creatively and with a laugh.", "timestamp": "1349537576"}, {"author": "Barry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531293106896581", "anchor": "fb-531293106896581", "service": "fb", "text": "p.s. it only feels weird to me if she's wearing a hat and cane.", "timestamp": "1349537872"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531312780227947", "anchor": "fb-531312780227947", "service": "fb", "text": "\"I think we REALLY need to get out of using the terms \"lead\" and \"follow\". These terms simply do not apply to contra dance. It moves contra dancing further from its roots as a community dance.\"
I'm pretty sure descriptive accuracy is a moot point in a dance that uses instructions like \"box the gnat\" and \"mad robin\".", "timestamp": "1349539435"}, {"author": "Katherine", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/111274538329832838041", "anchor": "gp-1349539596202", "service": "gp", "text": "People finding a \"gents chain\" confusing is probably caused by them seeing the figure comparatively rarely.\u00a0But it's a\u00a0separate\u00a0issue from dancers assuming that a call that starts \"ladies\" must be a chain.\u00a0\n
\nStarting a call with \"ladies\"\u00a0definitely\u00a0doesn't imply \"chain\" to me, so I presume it doesn't to other swaties from around my time. Maybe the amount of confusion depends on what callers at that particular dance tend to say? Personally I would find it a little strange if someone said \"first lady, followed by first gent, cast off one place as the twos move up\" in an English or Scottish dance. But that's just because I'm not used to that\u00a0terminology being used in that context. And it doesn't mean I shouldn't try to switch to it.\u00a0", "timestamp": 1349539596}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531330863559472", "anchor": "fb-531330863559472", "service": "fb", "text": "I like \"leads\" and \"follows\" because they're non-gendered, but don't require anything I have to wear like armbands, which (aside from sounding awkward) work well for dancers who stay in the same role throughout the dance, but not for dancers who swap. No one has come up with a perfect term, and I accept in a dance whatever term the caller chooses to use without making a big deal of it, but for me \"lead\" and \"follow\" are the best compromise.", "timestamp": "1349541524"}, {"author": "Jamie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531331420226083", "anchor": "fb-531331420226083", "service": "fb", "text": "I like the gent/lady terms because they're so specific to contra dance! I enjoy dancing both gent and lady, and don't mind being called either when I'm dancing both roles. I agree that I would avoid calls that specifically mention \"men\" and \"women,\" because being a man or a woman doesn't have much to do with the role you are dancing. As others have said, I also shy away from the terms \"lead\" and \"follow\" in contra, because compared to other types of dance, there's not that much leading or following going on in contra.", "timestamp": "1349541598"}, {"author": "Jamie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531331763559382", "anchor": "fb-531331763559382", "service": "fb", "text": "I also *really really* strongly agree with your note that requesting a same-gender pair to split up to help the gender ratio is completely unacceptable!", "timestamp": "1349541646"}, {"author": "Penelope", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531361600223065", "anchor": "fb-531361600223065", "service": "fb", "text": "Oh, so, completely unacceptable!!!! Daniel, Send me your address in a PM and I'll send youa \"Dance with Who's Comin' Atcha\" tee shirt... ;)", "timestamp": "1349545935"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531420466883845", "anchor": "fb-531420466883845", "service": "fb", "text": "It seems to me that we had a very similar discussion (also triggered by a post from Jeff) a few months ago, but it's a question that isn't going away, so why not?
I actually learned contra-dancing in the gender-free environment, so I learned \"armbands\" and \"bare-arms\" first, although I did understand that these were the roles generally referred to elsewhere with gender-related terms. I'm inclined to agree with Daniel that the \"band\"-related terms are a bit awkward, especially if you want to switch roles, and further note that a lot of callers end up saying \"bands\" and \"bares\", which are not always that easy to distinguish while the band (ahem) is playing. As a matter of historical fact, when Chris Ricciotti started the JP gender-free dance, he used \"gents\" and \"ladies\" for the first few years, until some of the dancers complained, which is when the armband terminology was invented (this was before my time).
I don't mind being called a \"lady\" or even a \"woman\" in the context of a dance -- it doesn't change my perception of what gender I am -- but I kind of like the idea of phasing out the assumption that the respective roles are more appropriate for one gender or the other. But I don't know how to solve it.
I don't much like \"lead\" and \"follow\", and I know at least one caller who detests them; still, I notice that when I ask a partner if they have a role preference, they'll often say \"I'd rather lead/follow\", and at least I know what they mean without having to think about it.
The gay modern Western square dance community uses \"boys\" and \"girls\", partly (I suspect) because it's a context in which syllables are at a premium. :-)", "timestamp": "1349555591"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1349556018038", "service": "gp", "text": "@Allison\n\u00a0\"I do think people sometimes parse 'ladies chain' as a phrase that can't be decomposed, though, based on the level of confusion that a call for gents to chain inspires.\"\n
\n
\nIf a \"gents chain\" were simply a ladies chain with genders reversed it wouldn't confuse me, but it's mirror-reversed from a normal chain. \u00a0Which means that the courtesy turn is the reverse of all the other (even same-gender) courtesy turns you do. \u00a0I wish the first person to choreograph a \"gents chain\" had gotten the gents into the normal chain position, on the right, and had only swapped the genders.", "timestamp": 1349556018}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1349556188573", "service": "gp", "text": "@Lucas\n\u00a0\"you'd call 'ladies chain' even if you were referring to the dance roles as armbands/bare arms or leads/follows?\"\n
\n
\nThat would surprise me. \u00a0At the JP dance here where they say \"bare arms\" and \"bands\" I would expect to hear \"bare arms chain\", though I'm not that familiar with it.", "timestamp": 1349556188}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/117732328885787456164", "anchor": "gp-1349560072921", "service": "gp", "text": "They say \"bare-arms chain\" or \"bares chain\" in JP.", "timestamp": 1349560072}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1349562985342", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff Kaufman\n\u00a0, I guess my right/left confusion serves me well in the instance of the gents chain! If not at any other time...", "timestamp": 1349562985}, {"author": "John", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531786536847238", "anchor": "fb-531786536847238", "service": "fb", "text": "At our gender free English Country Dance in JP we use the gender free conventions (originated at Heather and Rose I believe) which get away from this issue by using positional terminology: left file, right file, (we use clock or window to reflect the way the hall is) first diagonals, second diagonals, etc. see: http://www.lcfd.org/gf-ecd-calling-conventions.html.", "timestamp": "1349624970"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531847756841116", "anchor": "fb-531847756841116", "service": "fb", "text": "That's interesting, John. Positional terminology is relatively unfamiliar to most contradancers, though -- to the extent that it's used, ones refers to the position you started the dance in, not where you happen to be at any moment as it seems to be in the ECD conventions you've pointed out. That could prove a hurdle in adjusting an existing population to new terms, since it's a new way of thinking about who's being called rather than just a new name for groupings we're already familiar with. Also, I don't know about you, but left/right file would really confuse me in a hall that didn't have convenient landmarks to replace those names. Like stage left/right (where I always forget whether it means left from the position of the stage, or left from the audience perspective looking at the stage) except worse because you're always spinning around and your left bears no meaningful association with \"left\" as a hall position.", "timestamp": "1349632583"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531875540171671", "anchor": "fb-531875540171671", "service": "fb", "text": "@Daniel: For that very reason, we tend to avoid \"right/left file\" (to this day I don't know which is which), and instead rely on features of the hall -- clock/window in JP, lake/meadow at Becket, etc. Even gendered English calling includes some positional terms -- e.g., first/second diagonal -- and contra generally doesn't; I agree that it would be difficult to introduce it.", "timestamp": "1349636626"}, {"author": "Rachel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=531988453493713", "anchor": "fb-531988453493713", "service": "fb", "text": "for me, I don't care what terms are used to refer to the role I'm dancing. While I appreciate the idea that lady and gent refer to your dance-floor gender only, when I've discussed this with friends who don't dance or only dance genderfree, they say that lady/gent terms don't feel any less gendered to them than man/woman terms.", "timestamp": "1349654868"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=532033846822507", "anchor": "fb-532033846822507", "service": "fb", "text": "Thom, I said a lot of things. You might want to be more specific.", "timestamp": "1349663754"}, {"author": "Rachel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/531057506920141?comment_id=532207353471823", "anchor": "fb-532207353471823", "service": "fb", "text": "I dance the traditionally male part about two-thirds of the time and don't have any trouble with my own gender. All these other terms you all are talking about are confusing me. They're just words to tell you where you need to be in the dance. I guess I understand the problem intellectually but practically speaking don't really get it. I'm not sure I could remember where an apple is supposed to dance.", "timestamp": "1349700160"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/117346402173047680184", "anchor": "gp-1349721818432", "service": "gp", "text": "I'm glad the gents chain is mirrored.\u00a0 It makes for an interesting new move.\u00a0 I also wouldn't hesitate to call \"Gents, Ladies chain\" or vice versa.\u00a0 Well, I'd hesitate a little and wouldn't do it during a no walk through, but you know.", "timestamp": 1349721818}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1349724161545", "service": "gp", "text": "@Chris\n\u00a0\"I also wouldn't hesitate to call 'Gents, Ladies chain' or vice versa.\"\n
\n
\nI would certainly hesitate. \u00a0I think having the gents do a ladies chain would be hard to teach well.", "timestamp": 1349724161}, {"author": "Andy", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/102028441395846078441", "anchor": "gp-1350340828255", "service": "gp", "text": "I think the terms are all interchangeable in the context of dance. \u00a0Not exactly on topic, but see the article on Gender Roles in the IAGSDC History Wiki\u00a0\nhttp://www.iagsdchistory.org/historywiki/index.php?title=Gender_Roles\n
\n
\nAlso not exactly on topic, but I know of some contra callers who say \"Women's chain\" - which is just plain weird. \u00a0It's just plural, not possessive. \u00a0The chain does not \nbelong\n to the Women. \"Men's chain\" sounds even more wrong. \u00a0\u00a0", "timestamp": 1350340828}]}