{"items": [{"author": "Amelia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/921150983922?comment_id=921154566742", "anchor": "fb-921154566742", "service": "fb", "text": "you're really good at talking about the patriarchy without talking about the patriarchy", "timestamp": "1515960361"}, {"author": "Clarida", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/921150983922?comment_id=921207610442", "anchor": "fb-921207610442", "service": "fb", "text": "I often wonder how to effectively divide the \u201cemotional labor\u201d in a way that is sustainable long term and where he learning curve for either party doesn\u2019t defeat the purpose of trying to achieve any potential benefits.", "timestamp": "1515984976"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/921150983922?comment_id=921207610442&reply_comment_id=921256048372", "anchor": "fb-921207610442_921256048372", "service": "fb", "text": "→ For a couple that has decades left of expected time together I would think that the learning curve on nearly anything wouldn't be self defeating? Though generally the plateaus of learning curves for activities are at different heights for different people.
Which sorts of things are you using \"emotional labor\" for here? I've heard it used to mean the range from \"employment where you're expected to be emotionally available\" to \"looking after the emotional needs of the people around you\" to \"keeping track of everything that needs to be done to keep the household working well and filling in the gaps\" to \"all housework\".", "timestamp": "1516026386"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/921150983922?comment_id=921207610442&reply_comment_id=921257455552", "anchor": "fb-921207610442_921257455552", "service": "fb", "text": "→ (\"I mean all those things\" would be a fine answer, if you're trying to use the term broadly)", "timestamp": "1516027104"}, {"author": "Clarida", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/921150983922?comment_id=921207610442&reply_comment_id=921330254662", "anchor": "fb-921207610442_921330254662", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Yes! The keeping track bit \ud83d\ude42 The self defeating pieces mostly come into play (at least as far as my current considerations are concerned) where time and opportunity are limited, such as in early child development when a child enters the mix. It gets a little tricky balancing which components of your child\u2019s development are worth the trial and error of getting a more balanced division in place when those components are temporary at least and ever evolving at most. It\u2019s necessary to get in the habit of starting the trial and error and transferring the knowledge as is applicable to the evolving needs of the household, but it\u2019s just overwhelming. And even this very post is part of the meta emotional labor - keeping track of the balance of the emotional labor and trying to, over the long term, make that more fairly divided and self-adapting.", "timestamp": "1516058463"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/921150983922?comment_id=921207610442&reply_comment_id=921352724632", "anchor": "fb-921207610442_921352724632", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Clarida: two disconnected thoughts:
* It might be that getting a balanced level of overall effort would be easier than getting balanced levels of both emotional labor and other labor. Like, maybe there are enough other things your partner could start doing that the overall division feels fair to you both?
* It sounds like you think there are many things you need to keep track of where if you transferred them to your partner there would be long term consequences to your child if your partner let things slip? What sort of things are you thinking about? (The things that come to mind to me, like making sure kids have new clothes before they run out of their old ones, doing the laundry before the clean clothes run out, mending clothes as they get holes, making sure there's dinner every night, lining up childcare, fixing this around the house, making sure there are good systems for organizing toys, making sure the trash goes out before the bins overflow..., all seem like things where it's annoying if things go well but the consequences are limited and immediate.)", "timestamp": "1516067643"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/921150983922?comment_id=921207610442&reply_comment_id=921353388302", "anchor": "fb-921207610442_921353388302", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Even things like when we go out remembering to bring diapers / wipes / snacks / drinks almost entirely have short term effects if they are skipped.", "timestamp": "1516068114"}, {"author": "Clarida", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/921150983922?comment_id=921377734512", "anchor": "fb-921377734512", "service": "fb", "text": "It\u2019s the things that are wrapped up in planning for the future and considering what things you are doing to help your child be well rounded, get exposure to a multitude of experiences. Ensuring your kid has clothes before their current size runs out is one of these things but there\u2019s also the questions like \u201cis she getting enough X,Y,Z now and are we set up for her to continue getting the right amount of that in the future? What instrument should be chosen? What type of school philosophy are we interested in? The list goes on.", "timestamp": "1516081595"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/921150983922?comment_id=921377734512&reply_comment_id=921394336242", "anchor": "fb-921377734512_921394336242", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Also, it's the different expectations placed on each. Vera faces a lot more pressure to parent the \"right way\" (whatever that is) while I'm applauded for merely functioning with the kids.
On the flip side, I've gotten a lot of pressure at work to leave as much of the parenting load as possible to my wife, including surprise at my taking a mere two weeks of parental leave (unpaid, in both cases).
No matter how much you try to separate yourself from these pressures, they creep in and affect the balance of parenting activity.", "timestamp": "1516104720"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/921150983922?comment_id=921377734512&reply_comment_id=921419919972", "anchor": "fb-921377734512_921419919972", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The different expectations thing is hard. For example, if we decide I'll be in charge of clothes and I make bad choices (ugly / mismatched / holes / stains) then people around us are likely to count that against Julia and not me because typically the mother is responsible for clothes.
(Plus the generally lower bar for parenting as a dad, such that if people did know that I was the one dressing the kids then the same clothes would reflect better on me.)", "timestamp": "1516113760"}, {"author": "Cecile", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/921150983922?comment_id=921377734512&reply_comment_id=921420473862", "anchor": "fb-921377734512_921420473862", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I always assume that weird outfits are chosen by the child and appreciate the fact that the parent allowed them to wear what they wanted to without pressuring them to conform.", "timestamp": "1516114093"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/921150983922?comment_id=921377734512&reply_comment_id=921421252302", "anchor": "fb-921377734512_921421252302", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Cecile: that works for mismatched/silly clothes, but not for \"parent hasn't been buying clothes in the right size\" or \"clothes have holes/stains\" etc.", "timestamp": "1516114306"}, {"author": "Cecile", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/921150983922?comment_id=921377734512&reply_comment_id=921421985832", "anchor": "fb-921377734512_921421985832", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Maybe. Depends how consistent it is. If I see someone in passing in public I am unlikely to assume parental incompetence - I am more likely to think the kid insisted on an older sibling's shirt or beloved item they've grown out of, or that the parent is doing the best they can with limited time/money. I do judge if I see a parent behaving badly to their child.", "timestamp": "1516114555"}, {"author": "Cecile", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/921150983922?comment_id=921377734512&reply_comment_id=921422295212", "anchor": "fb-921377734512_921422295212", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I realize other people can be quicker to judge than I am.", "timestamp": "1516114716"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/921150983922?comment_id=921377734512&reply_comment_id=921449640412", "anchor": "fb-921377734512_921449640412", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff it's also that I'm the manager for the au pair, and I see it as part of my responsibility to her to have the kids dressed in a way that won't embarrass her at the park (assuming it doesn't cause too much of a ruckus because the child wants to wear the same clothes for the third day in a row, etc.)", "timestamp": "1516127100"}, {"author": "Pinkie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/921150983922?comment_id=921377734512&reply_comment_id=921455718232", "anchor": "fb-921377734512_921455718232", "service": "fb", "text": "→ i love the insight in this thread :)", "timestamp": "1516129974"}, {"author": "Clarida", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/921150983922?comment_id=921377734512&reply_comment_id=921473896802", "anchor": "fb-921377734512_921473896802", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Michael agree! And lol at the merely functioning", "timestamp": "1516139107"}, {"author": "Clarida", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/921150983922?comment_id=921377734512&reply_comment_id=921474310972", "anchor": "fb-921377734512_921474310972", "service": "fb", "text": "→ And also there is the self-imposed emotional labor that is unnecessary in the grand scheme of things. But who can tell that apart from the necessary in the early stages of parenting full of na\u00efvet\u00e9", "timestamp": "1516139292"}, {"author": "Clarida", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/921150983922?comment_id=921377734512&reply_comment_id=921474595402", "anchor": "fb-921377734512_921474595402", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Coupled with the unfair expectation that your partner should take those upon themselves as well in this division exercise", "timestamp": "1516139348"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/921150983922?comment_id=921412844152", "anchor": "fb-921412844152", "service": "fb", "text": "Have you ever played with this kind of thing? http://www.psych.upenn.edu/~baron/nego1.htm", "timestamp": "1516110245"}, {"author": "Peter", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/921150983922?comment_id=921769464482", "anchor": "fb-921769464482", "service": "fb", "text": "How do you know that \"it's common for the wife to do more of the work\"? It's not that I doubt such gendered divisions are unfair to women (and to men) but how would you even figure this out?
I mean I know in recent times many women have found themselves unhappy because they are doing more domestic work (parenting etc..). However, far from being a cost of a gender based division this recent experience is more the result of incomplete rejection of gender based divisions.
It's not at all clear who works more or has the 'better deal' in traditional male earner/female housewife couples. While hard to measure I assign pretty high probability to the claim that women in modern couples often end up more burdened because they still face social expectations rooted in the gendered past (expectations that unfortunately often evade feminist pushback because its often other women who hold women more responsible for keeping a nice house or performing maternal duties). But since it's socially acceptable now for women to reject and critique their domestic role but men who reject/critique their provider/head of household role are still looked down on it's very hard to measure how much this same gender difference weighs on men. Feeling one MUST be the primary earner or you are a failure is far worse than doing the same work without the percieved social expectation.
Anyway, the real point I'm trying to make is that it's harmful to focus on such zero sum aspects of gender relations. Whether or not men and women are equally miserable on average doesn't matter. What does matter is the fact that crystallized gender divisions deny many people of both genders the change to choose lifestyles they find far more preferable.", "timestamp": "1516300076"}]}