{"items": [{"author": "Vivian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648304794872", "anchor": "fb-648304794872", "service": "fb", "text": "If we dance the figure enough, it will begin to feel natural!

I'm biased though: I'm also a fan of occasionally doing mirror image ballroom position in partner dances.

Does \"circle right\" bother you too? The caller often has to remind people a few times that \"right\" is not \"left\".", "timestamp": "1392086961"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648305224012", "anchor": "fb-648305224012", "service": "fb", "text": "@Isaac: In the few dances where the choreography is really calling out for a circle right, which then flows very naturally, I'm fine with it. The dances I've done with a gents chain didn't feel like that.", "timestamp": "1392087182"}, {"author": "Vivian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648305383692", "anchor": "fb-648305383692", "service": "fb", "text": "Hmm: regular ladies chain courtesy turn is counterclockwise. Swings are clockwise. Maybe gents' chain could end with the lady+gent half-turn happening in swing position instead of courtesy turn position.", "timestamp": "1392087274"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648305817822", "anchor": "fb-648305817822", "service": "fb", "text": "@Isaac: That's basically a shorter version of the common \"gents aleman L 1.5 to cross the set and swing the next\".", "timestamp": "1392087394"}, {"author": "Cory", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648306785882", "anchor": "fb-648306785882", "service": "fb", "text": "its only awkward because we're not used to doing it that way. If it became a regular move or something, it would be come less awkward.", "timestamp": "1392087973"}, {"author": "Vivian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648307155142", "anchor": "fb-648307155142", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jeff: Yep, same pattern, but different moves. Short swings often feel rushed to me. But if the calls specified how many times around to go (0.5-1.5) for a very short swing, then I think they wouldn't feel as rushed to me. (Though I don't recall having seen that done.)

Also: you have a point about the language. If a caller wants to call gents to chain starting from the right, \"gents chain\" is the only way to say it so it's too bad if it means something else.

The hey is a similar move that (I believe) either gender can start from either side. With the hey, callers often say both what role is starting the move and which shoulder they start with (I believe the shoulder is also implied by the side they start on: if you start on the right then you pass right shoulders first, and vice versa).", "timestamp": "1392088235"}, {"author": "Yoyo", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112374925965540306459", "anchor": "gp-1392088494835", "service": "gp", "text": "I think you'd have the problem that there are figures called \"men's chain\" in Scottish country dance and Irish ceili, at the very least, which are left-hand chains rather than crossed-over right-hand chains. It seems like if the men did a right-hand chain too, \"chain\" would be a better name than \"men's/gents chain\".", "timestamp": 1392088494}, {"author": "Dvor\u00e1", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648308337772", "anchor": "fb-648308337772", "service": "fb", "text": "I don't know what to do, but I agree with your assessment that it's awkward.", "timestamp": "1392089112"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648314580262", "anchor": "fb-648314580262", "service": "fb", "text": "Larry Jennings was opposed to the men's chain because the hands joined in front of the body were positioned in font of the woman's boobs, which he felt would lead to much unintentional 'groping'. I'm opposed to diving under arches for similar reasons.", "timestamp": "1392092544"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648315049322", "anchor": "fb-648315049322", "service": "fb", "text": "Kiran: Yeah, but that's true for either version, so it doesn't really answer the question of which to do.", "timestamp": "1392092893"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648315089242", "anchor": "fb-648315089242", "service": "fb", "text": "vis-a-vis language, in my head, the gender swap version is called \"men ladies chain\".", "timestamp": "1392092932"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648315124172", "anchor": "fb-648315124172", "service": "fb", "text": "It's not true for the \"traditional\" version, where the crossed hands are in front of the man.", "timestamp": "1392092967"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648315199022", "anchor": "fb-648315199022", "service": "fb", "text": "You mean it's not true for ladies chain or it's not true for men chain from the left?", "timestamp": "1392093021"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648315218982", "anchor": "fb-648315218982", "service": "fb", "text": "Apologies to anyone that is disturbed by my gender specific language here. I need to work on that.", "timestamp": "1392093061"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648315393632", "anchor": "fb-648315393632", "service": "fb", "text": "It's not true for the kind of chain that was commonly done when Larry was dancing, when it was uncommon for two people of the same sex to dance with each other and at least as uncommon for two people of opposite sexes to switch roles. This reminds me of the line from HHG...", "timestamp": "1392093201"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648315992432", "anchor": "fb-648315992432", "service": "fb", "text": "My experience is that it feels awkward the first couple of times through the dance, and then I get used to it and it feels perfectly natural. If it were called more often it probably wouldn't feel awkward at all.", "timestamp": "1392093850"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648316022372", "anchor": "fb-648316022372", "service": "fb", "text": "Kiran: Yeah, which means Larry's objection is kind of beside the point now.", "timestamp": "1392093876"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648316132152", "anchor": "fb-648316132152", "service": "fb", "text": "Why, because nobody does a chain with a courtesy turn anymore?", "timestamp": "1392093941"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648316306802", "anchor": "fb-648316306802", "service": "fb", "text": "No, because the objection is based on assumptions about the physical gender of the dancers that are no longer universally valid. As you said yourself. (I do a chain with a courtesy turn, including when I'm the one doing the chaining if I can manage it without having my arm injured.)", "timestamp": "1392094123"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1392094155"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648316586242", "anchor": "fb-648316586242", "service": "fb", "text": "It's true that the assumptions about gender in Larry's dancing days are no longer *universally* valid, but they're still in the vast majority. Larry's objection, which does assume the women care about not being bumped, is relevant to either variant of the men's chain.", "timestamp": "1392094490"}, {"author": "Eileen", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648318711982", "anchor": "fb-648318711982", "service": "fb", "text": "I concur about frequency & familiarity being key issues, and I prefer dancing gents chains more rather than cutting them out. (I knew I'd finally settled into the gents chain when I was able to naturally lead a gent in a push-off twirl during the courtesy turn.) The handing concern seems like an odd objection: I hold my hands at waist height during a courtesy turn, not at chest height.

Here's my dance with a gents chain, written specifically for flow:

The Curmudgeon Who Ruined Contra Dance
Eileen

A1: Neighbor balance & swing
A2: Gents start 1/2 hey, passing L shoulders
Gents chain
B1: Right-hand star
Gents turn over R shoulder, P swing
B2: Circle L 3/4
Neighbor do-so-do 1.5
(Alternate B2: Circle L 3/4, ring of 4 balance, pass through)", "timestamp": "1392096687"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648318926552", "anchor": "fb-648318926552", "service": "fb", "text": "Interesting. Al Olson was curious about variations in hand positions in courtesy turns; he asked me what I knew about them and I had nothing to offer--I had only seen it done with hands at chest level \"as if you were stopping traffic.\" So this might be a practical solution to Larry's objection.", "timestamp": "1392096897"}, {"author": "Jack", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648332519312", "anchor": "fb-648332519312", "service": "fb", "text": "Gene Hubert wrote a dance where the ladies chain, roll away and the gents do a ladies chain (or the gents do a right hand chain). That being said, lisa g's teach of the left hand gents chain works wonders - gents pull by left, allemande right with [the one you meet]. Ladies tuck in putting your left hand around the gent and it's a courtesy turn. (edited to fix right / left reversal)", "timestamp": "1392125260"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648332808732", "anchor": "fb-648332808732", "service": "fb", "text": "Greenfield seemed to enjoy the gent's chain Nils called last Saturday. Or the NEFFA medley last Spring.

I think if we're worried about unintentional groping from poorly executed moves, we could include swings, rollaways, and heys in the list.
Gent's chain is an uncommon move whose criticism of difficulty is really applicable to almost any uncommon move.

Lacking any remaining objections, I will keep a couple dances with gent's chain in my box.", "timestamp": "1392125594"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648338572182", "anchor": "fb-648338572182", "service": "fb", "text": "Jack: Should it be: \"allemande right with the one you meet. Ladies tuck in putting your left hand around the gent and it's a courtesy turn\"?", "timestamp": "1392130842"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648342753802", "anchor": "fb-648342753802", "service": "fb", "text": "The hand position likely depends, among other things, on the relative heights of the participants.", "timestamp": "1392133899"}, {"author": "Eileen", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648343836632", "anchor": "fb-648343836632", "service": "fb", "text": "Indeed, Robert. Personally, doing a ladies chain, I put my right hand on my right hip and hold out my left at about the same height.", "timestamp": "1392134655"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648344650002", "anchor": "fb-648344650002", "service": "fb", "text": "Good plan, Eileen. Chris Ricciotti, when teaching the chain, is fond of telling the \"ladies\" to put their right hand behind them, warning them that if they do not, \"everything from the shoulders down is fair game\". (To head off any indignant reactions, it's invariably clear that this is intended as a joke.)

Do the men (they're pretty well always actual men) take the hint from the height of your left hand? (I already know the answer to that one.)", "timestamp": "1392135315"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648350393492", "anchor": "fb-648350393492", "service": "fb", "text": "The funny how many experienced / hot stuff dancers are baffled by a relatively simple move.", "timestamp": "1392139007"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648359340562", "anchor": "fb-648359340562", "service": "fb", "text": "@Ron : When we say \"experienced\" we mean someone has done the standard moves many times until they have become natural. Give a simple but atypical call like \"swing counterclockwise\" or \"circle right\" and now all that practice is worse than useless as they work to overcome the impulse to do the natural thing.

Imagine I randomly rearranged all the keys on your keyboard and did the same to someone just learning to type, and then mocked you for being baffled by the relatively simple action of pressing the key labeled \"a\". That's how I read your comment.", "timestamp": "1392144897"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648360049142", "anchor": "fb-648360049142", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, rearranging keys is not an apt metaphor, since people still know where their arms and legs are. I assert that teaching a new phrase is better.

Gents chains are uncommon, but so are cloverleafs, dip and dives, or any number of ECD or MWSD moves incorporated into Contra. So is learning to dip safely. Provide me any reason why dismissing gents chains isn't equivalent to dismissing any non-standard Contra move?", "timestamp": "1392145313"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648360308622", "anchor": "fb-648360308622", "service": "fb", "text": "Also, Jeff, how are your gender-based arguments valid given any dance that doesn't ban role swapping?", "timestamp": "1392145527"}, {"author": "Hal", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648362105022", "anchor": "fb-648362105022", "service": "fb", "text": "I like the gents chain. It's fun when we get this rare move in a dance. I don't find the courtesy turn direction for it unnatural. It makes sense to me to start the gents chain from the gents' \"home\" side rather than having to design a dance to put the gents on the right. The only issue with the gents chain is that ladies are often awkward giving a courtesy turn just because they don't have much practice with it (and it's rarely taught well during the walk-through). Many of them take it as an opportunity to try to twirl the gents as much as possible, which is really not my preference. If we just did the gents chain more often, I think that all of these issues would fade away.", "timestamp": "1392146269"}, {"author": "Hal", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648362574082", "anchor": "fb-648362574082", "service": "fb", "text": "As for hand position in a ladies chain, there are some ladies who reach out their free hand in an allemande position rather than a waist-level handshake position. As I see it, my job in the gent's role is to catch the lady's hand wherever she presents it. This is what makes Contra dancing so wonderfully connected and flowing--paying attention to your partner/neighbor and responding appropriately. If a woman wants to pull my hand to her chest, whether in a chain, allemande, balancing wavy lines, or some other move, that's up to her (and I'm not going to complain about it!) And . . . it should go without saying that trying to force or otherwise create this sort of contact is unacceptable.", "timestamp": "1392146702"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648367529152", "anchor": "fb-648367529152", "service": "fb", "text": "@Gretchen: \"I guess you'd have to solve the problem of which side of the gent the lady winds up on.\"

In both existing chains the two people it's named for (ladies/gents) end up swapping places while the other two people end up back where they started. So if you had the ladies chain from the left hand side I think you'd want them to end up to the left of the gent they start facing.", "timestamp": "1392150467"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648367708792", "anchor": "fb-648367708792", "service": "fb", "text": "@Ron: \"how are your gender-based arguments valid given any dance that doesn't ban role swapping?\"

I'm confused, I didn't think I was making a gender-based argument. Could you expand on this? I'm generally happy with role swapping and think there should be more of it.", "timestamp": "1392150569"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648368038132", "anchor": "fb-648368038132", "service": "fb", "text": "@Ron: \"Provide me any reason why dismissing gents chains isn't equivalent to dismissing any non-standard Contra move?\"

I would be basically fine with a gents chain that was a ladies chain with genders reversed: gents start on the right, pull by right, gender-swapped courtesy turn. I think the gents chain as is doesn't fit in well with the rest of the dance.", "timestamp": "1392150818"}, {"author": "Jack", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648369380442", "anchor": "fb-648369380442", "service": "fb", "text": "We really have two chains -- right hand chains and left hand chains. There is no reason that both of those chains can't be done by either gender (as in Chained Men, which includes both the ladies and the gents doing a RH chain.)

Each of them makes for a better transition with some moves than others. Ladies (RH) chain to a RHS, for example, is really awkward, but a gents (LH) chain to a RHS would work wonderfully because you already have the right hands joined. Yes, a left hand chain is less common, and reverses the courtesy turn, but a left shoulder hey also changes all of the shoulders you pass, and a mad robin can be done either clockwise or counterclockwise, gypsies can be done by either shoulder. Really the only move that we only do in a single direction is the swing. Why is it that you find the direction/hand reversal of the gents chain so much more objectionable?", "timestamp": "1392151776"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648371291612", "anchor": "fb-648371291612", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jack: Your categorization is really clear; thanks! So there are-left hand and right-hand chains which can be done with either gender crossing the set, and that default the set crosser starts in the standard gent-left lady-right position.

(Note that a \"right-hand\" chain is both one where the person chaining across starts on the right hand side and one where they use their right hand for the initial pull by.)

The reverse courtesy turn that's part of the left-hand chain is what feels awkward to me. It feels like it's a kind of movement that's not really anywhere else in contra, especially if you do a twirl.", "timestamp": "1392153239"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648374754672", "anchor": "fb-648374754672", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff - sorry, the gender argument was Kiran quoting Larry Jennings.

As for what would make you happy, that's a different move. Jack explained it well. I'm not sure what's so weird about a reverse courtesy turn... we have moves like star promenade and gypsy star which rotate like the courtesy turn but can be done either direction. And arguably, it's easier than a lady's chain for gents, since gents are on the left of the lady. As for the twirl, there are plenty of moves you can't twirl from. So?", "timestamp": "1392155871"}, {"author": "Jack", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648375802572", "anchor": "fb-648375802572", "service": "fb", "text": "As far as that goes, it is definitely possible to twirl the courtesy turn from a left hand chain. A twirl is much less connected than a courtesy turn (which when done correctly allows the two people to turn as a unit around the point between them). In a twirl, you're still needing to both orbit a point between you, but you're adding the fact that the lady is twirling and that you don't have that nice solid connection that you get in a courtesy turn. One way to get the feel of it in your body would be to do it a couple of times with a courtesy turn. Then do it a couple of times with a courtesy turn that you end doing a single twirl as you face across. Then try to do more twirls after you have the feel for the general path your feet need to travel. (That is all contingent on it being a chain to your partner, so that you can do it multiple times with the same person.)", "timestamp": "1392156665"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648418621762", "anchor": "fb-648418621762", "service": "fb", "text": "Sometime within the last couple of months somebody called a dance in Concord that had a gents' chain, and a number of the women tried to twirl me (and some succeeded). My comment was \"The ladies are getting their revenge.\"", "timestamp": "1392179909"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648819248902", "anchor": "fb-648819248902", "service": "fb", "text": "Oldest dance I've been able to google up with a men's chain is from 1990 and attributes the figure to a book by Rod Linell (sic). http://www.mdh-online.org/GreatContrasAndSquares.pdf", "timestamp": "1392493816"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=648819273852", "anchor": "fb-648819273852", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm googled out for a Saturday, but if someone else wants to have a go at it ... :)", "timestamp": "1392493837"}, {"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=649766525552", "anchor": "fb-649766525552", "service": "fb", "text": "An alternative idea to a men\u2019s chain is to have a right hand cross-gender chain, which would come easily out of a proper dance. It doesn\u2019t address Jeff\u2019s original question, but it could perhaps be thought of as a transition move to help people get used to the idea of different kinds of chains.

\"Through the Looking Glass\"

Start proper.

1) Circle left once around

2) Cross-gender chain (Man 2 chains with Woman 1)

3) Left-hand star once around

4) Swing partner (Woman 1 and Man 2 turn back to swing partner)

5) Men lead half ricochet hey (men cross by left; women go into center but don't cross; they ricochet back to place)

6) Balance and swing neighbor

7) Woman 1 leads a California twirl to change places with Man 1 and end proper (call it a \"Galifornia twirl\"), which is the progression, and they face down; couple 2 does a do-si-do

To help woman 1 lead the twirl (who is presumably unfamiliar with doing so), you could say something like, \u201cWoman 1, reach straight across with your right hand to your partner to do a one-handed balance; twirl your partner under your arm to trade places.\u201d", "timestamp": "1393258240"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=649766710182", "anchor": "fb-649766710182", "service": "fb", "text": "@Paul: I like the cross-gender chain idea! It would probably need to be for an advanced dance; having the roles switch so sharply at the ends is a bit tricky.", "timestamp": "1393258417"}, {"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=649767822952", "anchor": "fb-649767822952", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff - agreed. Although I imagine it wouldn't be so bad at a gender free dance.", "timestamp": "1393259241"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=649773022532", "anchor": "fb-649773022532", "service": "fb", "text": "Paul: Right. My body just knows when doing a California twirl to go over if I'm on the left or under if I'm on the right. (There's an English dance that violates this rule -- it's always the 2s who go under [or over, I don't remember which], so it depends on which side you're on, and it drives me nuts.)", "timestamp": "1393262483"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/648301641192?comment_id=742079205202", "anchor": "fb-742079205202", "service": "fb", "text": "Chain / reverse chain. Add whatever role prefix one likes.", "timestamp": "1438887904"}]}