{"items": [{"author": "Melissa", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662899047872", "anchor": "fb-662899047872", "service": "fb", "text": "For what it's worth, I never heated a single bottle and my guy is still alive :)", "timestamp": "1402319645"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662899666632", "anchor": "fb-662899666632", "service": "fb", "text": "@Melissa: At first we weren't heating bottles, but Lily is way happier to eat if they're warm.", "timestamp": "1402320113"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662899691582", "anchor": "fb-662899691582", "service": "fb", "text": "Melissa, we did originally do cold bottles, but over time she's gotten less interested in them.
Jeff Kaufman, \"anything else made from glass\" - most people use plastic bottles. I assume milk in glass heats slower than in plastic. I definitely wouldn't want to microwave baby milk in plastic.", "timestamp": "1402320128"}, {"author": "Patricia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662899841282", "anchor": "fb-662899841282", "service": "fb", "text": "Actual parents will weigh in on this one. But as for measuring evenness of heating, how about borrowing night vision equipment?", "timestamp": "1402320267"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662900435092", "anchor": "fb-662900435092", "service": "fb", "text": "@Julia: I'm not sure the glass has much of an effect on the heating time. I did all of these tests with a 5oz size glass bottle, but the bottle came out of the microwave cold and seemed to only be warned by contact with the now-warm milk.
Some looking online agrees: glass is basically transparent to microwave.", "timestamp": "1402320671"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662900599762", "anchor": "fb-662900599762", "service": "fb", "text": "Does uneven heating matter? For solids, it can be an issue, because it's not easy to redistribute that heat. (And then I sometimes end up heating the whole thing more, because the part I touched/tested wasn't warm enough.) For liquids, though, shake it up and voila! Now it's evenly heated. I see what they're saying about potentially damaging some of the milk by overheating it, but this seems relevant only for extreme overheating.
Re: exploding bottles, it could be more relevant to bottles than other glassware, such as cups and bowls, IF you don't open it first and allow it to vent. Bottles lend themselves more easily to unvented heating if you're not attentive to it. However, seems to me the correct advice for this would be: \"make sure to take the lid off first\", rather than \"don't heat your bottle in the microwave at all\".", "timestamp": "1402320774"}, {"author": "Melissa", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662900839282", "anchor": "fb-662900839282", "service": "fb", "text": "Oh man, I was so thankful when I realized didn't have to heat 'em up in the middle of the night :( but my guy couldn't care less about temperature. Of course, every babe is different. I'm pretty sure I heated up a bottle or two in the microwave. The warning against it is probably for people who don't think about quantity and time, etc. Sorta like the caution: hot warnings on coffee cups....", "timestamp": "1402320968"}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662902960032", "anchor": "fb-662902960032", "service": "fb", "text": "Did you try the infrared thermometer at all? I would think an infrared camera would be the proper way to visualize uneven heating.", "timestamp": "1402322403"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662902984982", "anchor": "fb-662902984982", "service": "fb", "text": "@Daniel: \"I see what they're saying about potentially damaging some of the milk by overheating it, but this seems relevant only for extreme overheating\"
Fresh breast milk is still kind of alive, so even moderate overheating could start killing antibodies or something. But I know way too little here, and even if 10% is getting overheated that should only make it 10% less good.
\"make sure to take the lid off first\"
Yup. Especially if the lid is plastic, which you really don't want in the microwave.", "timestamp": "1402322419"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662903074802", "anchor": "fb-662903074802", "service": "fb", "text": "@Danner: \"Did you try the infrared thermometer at all?\"
I didn't remember it! That would have been helpful. But you're right; an infrared camera would be better, especially a calibrated one.", "timestamp": "1402322480"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662903214522", "anchor": "fb-662903214522", "service": "fb", "text": "Also, if we're concerned about killing off antibodies, it becomes relevant to ask whether this is the ONLY way your baby is being fed, or simply a supplement. For the former, this seems like a real concern. For the latter, won't they just get their antibodies from breast-feeding in the moment? How much does it matter if they get fewer antibodies and beneficial microbes (or even none) when they drink from the bottle?", "timestamp": "1402322594"}, {"author": "Dan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662904447052", "anchor": "fb-662904447052", "service": "fb", "text": "I am amazed you can fit Julia in your microwave!", "timestamp": "1402323516"}, {"author": "Gianna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662905055832", "anchor": "fb-662905055832", "service": "fb", "text": "Daniel the supplementation point is an excellent point and one that is also true (in my personal opinion) about frozen breast milk, or scalded and frozen breast milk, as well. Is it less ideal than fresh milk? Probably. Does it matter, if the baby usually or often or even sometimes gets fresh milk? Probably not. (Similarly, there are many babies who drink some combination of breast milk and formula - and I would argue that those babies are just fine - meaning that a diet composed exclusively of fresh breast milk is not really necessary. I'd argue that some breast milk is preferable to none, but really, babies who drink only formula generally do just fine as well - provided the water is clean - in spite of all the hype. Some may disagree with me here).", "timestamp": "1402323937"}, {"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662905405132", "anchor": "fb-662905405132", "service": "fb", "text": "Yes, but just warm a little - I do 45 seconds for 8 oz of milk from fridge temp, or 30 seconds from room temp - then shake the bottle vigorously to distribute the heat.", "timestamp": "1402324217"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662905864212", "anchor": "fb-662905864212", "service": "fb", "text": "@Paul: \"45 seconds for 8 oz of milk from fridge temp\" sounds like a lot to me, but Lily is small enough that I'm more likely to be doing 2oz at once. I think it's linear in quantity? So 45s for 8oz is equivalent to 11s for 2oz?
(And of course microwaves vary a lot in power, so comparing numbers is hard.)", "timestamp": "1402324658"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1402324774"}, {"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662906453032", "anchor": "fb-662906453032", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff - yes it's linear, but I have 3 kids and two liked it at that temp, one liked it slightly cooler... Also this is at full power. As always start cool and work up to warm, judge from your baby's initial reaction.", "timestamp": "1402324985"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662907715502", "anchor": "fb-662907715502", "service": "fb", "text": "The fastest, safest way that I've found to heat up breast milk is to microwave about a 1/2 pint of water for 1 minute (which gets it very hot). During that time, I measure out the milk into the glass baby bottle. Using an instant read meat thermometer in the milk, I swirl the milk and bottle in the hot water until the milk is at body temp.", "timestamp": "1402325720"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662908563802", "anchor": "fb-662908563802", "service": "fb", "text": "@Gianna While one recent study found that there were no long term benefits to breast feeding over formula, many studies have shown that the short term benefits are significant, including fewer and less intense illnesses. Breast milk may not be necessary, but it is certainly beneficial.", "timestamp": "1402326336"}, {"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662911637642", "anchor": "fb-662911637642", "service": "fb", "text": "AFAIK, the main benefits of breast milk is DHA - for brain growth - and antibodies. The vulnerable time for an baby is from 3-6 months old. From 0-3 months it still has enough of its mother's antibodies to fend for itself. But the babies own immune system doesn't function till around 6 months - so that leaves the window between, where they are pretty much defenseless. At this time they can get infections that can result in Tourette's Syndrome and so on...", "timestamp": "1402328329"}, {"author": "Lisa", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662912620672", "anchor": "fb-662912620672", "service": "fb", "text": "Chris, there are also some decent studies showing that any breast milk is beneficial, so even if the heat destroys some of the benefits, it's absolutely worth it to use the microwave to save your sanity :)", "timestamp": "1402328663"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662916942012", "anchor": "fb-662916942012", "service": "fb", "text": "I assume dosage matters for the antibodies. If you take antibiotics, it matters how much you take. So if you're supplementing with a bit of formula or overheated breastmilk, it probably makes minimal difference, but once you start talking significant proportions of the child's diet I assume it does matter.
As far as long-term benefits, my money's on the huge trial that showed a 6-point IQ increase in breastfed kids at age 6. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18458209", "timestamp": "1402329797"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662916981932", "anchor": "fb-662916981932", "service": "fb", "text": "For longer-term antibody development, you need to make sure your kid plays in lots of mud. :)", "timestamp": "1402329834"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662918144602", "anchor": "fb-662918144602", "service": "fb", "text": "The difference between 30 sec in a microwave and 2 minutes in a bottle warmer is not that sanity saving that it is worth the chances that it is bad for the baby. We have never used a microwave for breast milk or formula. Start the bottle, change the diaper and the bottle is ready when your done.", "timestamp": "1402330451"}, {"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662924392082", "anchor": "fb-662924392082", "service": "fb", "text": "Also, since DHA is added to most baby formulas nowadays, it's mostly about the antibodies that breast milk provides. Very few mothers today - in the US - have the luxury to be able to breast feed for 6+ months. So what we did was after my wife returned to work she brought a backpack that had one of those machines to express milk - while at work - and stored it in the fridge in a cooler bag. Then brought it home, and I would add a small amount - 1 oz or so - to each bottle of formula milk. We even stored breast milk in the freezer and thawed it out for later use, in the critical 3-6 month period.", "timestamp": "1402333647"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662925494872", "anchor": "fb-662925494872", "service": "fb", "text": "@Chris: \"The difference between 30 sec in a microwave and 2 minutes in a bottle warmer is not that sanity saving that it is worth the chances that it is bad for the baby.\"
I'm not convinced bottle warmers are better.", "timestamp": "1402334044"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662935494832", "anchor": "fb-662935494832", "service": "fb", "text": "Could someone with a more facile grasp of math than I have figure out a likely range for the max possible temperature of any milk in a bottle?", "timestamp": "1402339214"}, {"author": "Erica", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662939691422", "anchor": "fb-662939691422", "service": "fb", "text": "Anecdata: I worked for a Mormon family with a medical doctor for a dad, and they heated plastic bottles in the microwave for 12 secs. I can't speak for long-term effects of plastic-in-microwave, but there were never any hot spots (and the bottle plastic never got melty at all)", "timestamp": "1402341602"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662939771262", "anchor": "fb-662939771262", "service": "fb", "text": "@Erica: \"there were never any hot spots\"
The particular kind of \"hot spots\" that worry me are areas where some of the milk might get too hot and lose some of it's nutritional/immune/? benefit. I don't think these are things you'd be able to tell with your hands?", "timestamp": "1402341696"}, {"author": "Erica", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662942984822", "anchor": "fb-662942984822", "service": "fb", "text": "ahh, no. But considering that we were only microwaving it up to \"not cold\" (and not all the way up to body temp), I would guess that hot spots that make it up to damaging-antibodies level are rare, but I don't know enough about how microwaves work.", "timestamp": "1402341862"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662944681422", "anchor": "fb-662944681422", "service": "fb", "text": "\"I'm not convinced bottle warmers are better.\"
Well, bottle warmers are way harder to misuse. But I'm not convinced that a bottle warmer is better than microwaving to under body temp.", "timestamp": "1402342159"}, {"author": "Elissa", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662945694392", "anchor": "fb-662945694392", "service": "fb", "text": "The lowest denaturation transition for IgG is measured in this paper at 61 C = 141 F. I would guess that the secretory form of IgA, which is the type of antibody that breast milk contains, would be more rather than less stable, so if you can avoid hot spots to greater than 140 F you should be good. (Also secreted antibodies are really not that big a deal, they mostly just protect against diarrhea.) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/.../PMC1300647/pdf/10620303.pdf", "timestamp": "1402342635"}, {"author": "Elissa", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662946966842", "anchor": "fb-662946966842", "service": "fb", "text": "Also relevant: \"Bovine milk immunoglobulins could resist the HTST pasteurization treatment at 72\u00b0C for 15 sec without affecting their structure.\" http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/.../j.1365-2621.../abstract", "timestamp": "1402342999"}, {"author": "Patricia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662948259252", "anchor": "fb-662948259252", "service": "fb", "text": "You could check for microwave hotspots with the old cheese slices on bread trick. Of course having a microwave carousel makes them much less likely.", "timestamp": "1402343694"}, {"author": "Patricia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662948663442", "anchor": "fb-662948663442", "service": "fb", "text": "Or zap on low power for longer, or raise the effective volume by placing the bottle in a water bath, and zapping the whole thing...", "timestamp": "1402343871"}, {"author": "Celeste", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662981148342", "anchor": "fb-662981148342", "service": "fb", "text": "Regarding antibodies, I found this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8889628 (note, I only read the abstract. My babies never accept bottles making milk temperature and heating method a moot point)", "timestamp": "1402355995"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662981522592", "anchor": "fb-662981522592", "service": "fb", "text": "@Celeste: It says \"The study shows that microwave heating of human milk can be performed without significant losses of examined immunoglobulins and nutrients, provided that final temperatures are below 60 degrees C.\"
60C is 140F; it seems like it shouldn't be too hard to get to 98F without having any of it get to 140F.", "timestamp": "1402356263"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=662985090442", "anchor": "fb-662985090442", "service": "fb", "text": "It'd be interesting to look at a heat exchange graph and see, for example: if you boiled some water, put it into a [container of known size], and put [a container of milk, of known size] into that, how long would it take to get to 98F, and would any overheat? Sort of like a double boiler or bain-marie except that you remove the heat source, so you're using the water as a heat reservoir.", "timestamp": "1402357807"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1402366333"}, {"author": "Rick", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=663042370652", "anchor": "fb-663042370652", "service": "fb", "text": "Julia, did the study you mention take into account that parents with higher IQs are probably more likely to breast feed?", "timestamp": "1402393686"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=663042734922", "anchor": "fb-663042734922", "service": "fb", "text": "@Richard: In the study Julia linked they chose randomly whether to promote breastfeeding or not at each maternity hospital. Children born at hospitals selected for breastfeeding promotion were much more likely to have been breastfed (43% vs 6%), and scored 6 IQ points higher at age 6.5.
Ways this might not be applicable: (a) formula in Belarus then might not have had DHA, which is now standard. It was added to formula in most countries between ~1995 and ~2002 and (b) there might have been water quality issues in some parts of Belarus.", "timestamp": "1402395074"}, {"author": "Diane", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=663047520332", "anchor": "fb-663047520332", "service": "fb", "text": "We used to regularly heat up bottles in the microwave for our kids and it worked just fine. Figured out what timing worked for our microwave, shook well to disperse the heat, and tested a few drops just to be sure.", "timestamp": "1402401993"}, {"author": "Emily", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=663052465422", "anchor": "fb-663052465422", "service": "fb", "text": "we put the bottle in a bowl of hot water held down by a funnel.", "timestamp": "1402406921"}, {"author": "Clara", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=663059281762", "anchor": "fb-663059281762", "service": "fb", "text": "On a different tangent, why is your household hot water so hot? There is some disagreement on the best temperature as a balance of infection concerns against safety, but it seems that the standard recommendation in the US, particularly with small children in the home, is 120F.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3605550/ (this in turn cites several other studies)", "timestamp": "1402411171"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=663059755812", "anchor": "fb-663059755812", "service": "fb", "text": "@Clara: We should probably fix that. Richard could explain, but it has to do with the way the plumbing is set up with the furnace and water heater.", "timestamp": "1402411523"}, {"author": "Rick", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=663060309702", "anchor": "fb-663060309702", "service": "fb", "text": "Our water is pre-heated by the oil furnace, which is a tankless system. This is efficient when it's winter and the furnace is running anyway, and necessary the rest of the time when we have so many people in the house to avoid running out of hot water. It then goes to the gas water heater, where it usually cools to a more reasonable temperature. However, if the usage is very heavy, the hotter water from the oil furnace goes right through the system, and the water at the tap can be very hot.", "timestamp": "1402411957"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=698984472392", "anchor": "fb-698984472392", "service": "fb", "text": "@Cass: The downside of heating it that way is that some of the milk is getting hotter than it has to, which might make it less nutritious.", "timestamp": "1418082014"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/662897540892?comment_id=698985679972", "anchor": "fb-698985679972", "service": "fb", "text": "@Cass: if it's only warm to the touch it's probably not getting anywhere near 140F, which around when it starts to get cooked, so that sounds fine.", "timestamp": "1418082767"}]}