{"items": [{"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/697033851452?comment_id=697037114912", "anchor": "fb-697037114912", "service": "fb", "text": "Experiment idea: given audio or video of just one person in a conversion, how well can observers predict the gender of the other one?", "timestamp": "1416622241"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/697033851452?comment_id=697037389362", "anchor": "fb-697037389362", "service": "fb", "text": "Probably some ways people treat each other differently would be harder to pick up without both audio streams. (interruptions? Or maybe you can detect them anyway)", "timestamp": "1416622543"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/697033851452?comment_id=697037484172", "anchor": "fb-697037484172", "service": "fb", "text": "Other things make this hard too, like: maybe people respond to stuff that's not gender but is correlated with gender.", "timestamp": "1416622640"}, {"author": "Ryan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/697033851452?comment_id=697042079962", "anchor": "fb-697042079962", "service": "fb", "text": "To answer your question in a word, yes.", "timestamp": "1416624853"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/697033851452?comment_id=697044240632", "anchor": "fb-697044240632", "service": "fb", "text": "The problem is: Some people care about gender as part of their identity, some don't. How do we make everyone happy?", "timestamp": "1416626904"}, {"author": "Ryan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/697033851452?comment_id=697048996102", "anchor": "fb-697048996102", "service": "fb", "text": "Create options instead of taking them away. Allowing people who want them to use gendered pronouns doesn't mean that everyone has to.", "timestamp": "1416631948"}, {"author": "Plymouth", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/697033851452?comment_id=697051121842", "anchor": "fb-697051121842", "service": "fb", "text": "Sometimes I try to interpret which binary gender people are reading me as when they aren't using gender words and I just can't. I'm happier being oblivious though - I mean, either one would be wrong, so if I can just pretend they're not gendering me I'm a happier person :)", "timestamp": "1416633951"}, {"author": "Peter", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/697033851452?comment_id=697051975132", "anchor": "fb-697051975132", "service": "fb", "text": "Isn't the issue of gender neutral pronouns one if many ways that gender neutrality/ fluidity is in tension with trans acceptance? If gender doesn't make any difference, why go to the considerable effort of changing ones?", "timestamp": "1416635023"}, {"author": "Ryan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/697033851452?comment_id=697052434212", "anchor": "fb-697052434212", "service": "fb", "text": "Well, for one, some gender-neutral and gender-fluid people also identify as trans*. And I don't quite understand where you're getting the \"gender doesn't make any difference.\" By and large, the agender and/or gender-neutral people I know aren't arguing that gender doesn't make any difference, or that other people shouldn't have genders - it's a matter of how they feel about gender, whether they personally identify with a gender.", "timestamp": "1416635752"}, {"author": "Ryan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/697033851452?comment_id=697052563952", "anchor": "fb-697052563952", "service": "fb", "text": "http://theoutlandish.com/five-things-you-should-know.../", "timestamp": "1416635891"}, {"author": "Ryan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/697033851452?comment_id=697052578922", "anchor": "fb-697052578922", "service": "fb", "text": "http://nonbinary.org/wiki/Agender", "timestamp": "1416635902"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/697033851452?comment_id=697060777492", "anchor": "fb-697060777492", "service": "fb", "text": "@Ryan: \"To answer your question in a word, yes.\"
In the linked post I argue that while this is true and affects how we should use pronouns now, we should still be trying to move our language (and the rest of our behaviors) toward not treating people differently based on apparent gender. I'm curious what you think?", "timestamp": "1416656723"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/697033851452?comment_id=697061091862", "anchor": "fb-697061091862", "service": "fb", "text": "@Ryan: The Outlandish article brings up a question someone also sent me by email. The article says: \"The English language, like all West Germanic and Romance languages, simply doesn\u2019t have many ungendered pronouns at its disposal. Luckily, there are plenty of other languages in the world with gender-neutral pronouns and genderless structures: Japanese, Finnish, Hungarian, Persian, Mandarin, Korean, Turkish, Malay, and many more are perfect examples of this.\"
If moving English toward being gender neutral in daily speech is harmful to trans people, then what does that make languages that already don't make that distinction with their pronouns?
There are many languages ranging from no verbal acknowledgement of gender (Mandarin) to moderate (English) to nearly unavoidable (Spanish). I'd be curious to hear from trans and genderqueer people about their experiences in these linguistic groups. How many people prefer the \"ta for everyone\" of Mandarin that lets you sidestep the question of gender, how many prefer the ubiquitous o-vs-a of Spanish because it's very clear whether your gender is being respected and gives you something socially acceptable (in some groups) to insist on? Other observations about the pros and cons of these different languages' treatments of gender?
(One confounder here is that you tend to have different social groups in different languages. If my Mandarin experience is with my conservative grandparents and my Spanish experience includes time with my trans friends, it's going to be hard to isolate the contribution of the language's pronoun system.)", "timestamp": "1416657724"}, {"author": "Ryan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/697033851452?comment_id=697066106812", "anchor": "fb-697066106812", "service": "fb", "text": "\"we should still be trying to move our language (and the rest of our behaviors) toward not treating people differently based on apparent gender.\" I agree with you there (sorry, Facebook discussions on my phone can be difficult).
I think there's a difference between using gender-neutral pronouns with the unknown (people with whom you haven't talked regarding personal pronoun preference) and saying that no one should use gendered pronouns - specifically barring people from using them. That doesn't happen with languages that don't have gendered pronouns.
Also, Korean doesn't have gendered pronouns, but there are very gendered parts of the linguistic structure. (Try talking to someone older than you are without gendering them - and often you - it'll be a challenge.)", "timestamp": "1416665693"}]}