{"items": [{"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644414151752", "anchor": "fb-644414151752", "service": "fb", "text": "You make some good points, but I'll just add that you didn't record a studio album; you recorded the board output from a series of live gigs for which you were being paid. I'm guessing you did the mixing in-house, which means your actual expenses are pretty limited to the actual pressing of discs.
There's nothing wrong with that, but it only works for live albums done by people who have the gear and experience to mix their own music. That's great as far as it goes, but if that's the model that becomes an economic necessity, most of the albums I like to listen to will never be made.", "timestamp": "1389215001"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644414920212", "anchor": "fb-644414920212", "service": "fb", "text": "One other point. People copying CDs/MP3s is different from the radio and library examples in one key way: both radio and library use limit the scope of listening in some way.
For radio, it's a temporal limitation. You can't listen to it unless your radio is turned on and tuned to the station at the time of broadcast. If you want to hear it again, you need to buy the album. (Yes, you could set up a recorder to record the radio shows, or use the podcast on the radio station's website, but I suspect most people don't do the former, and the station owes royalties for the latter).
For the library, it's a physical limitation. Only one person at a time can be listening to the CD that's in the library collection. Yes, people can rip the CD, but we don't have evidence either way to suggest that they do or don't. I've certainly later bought a lot of CDs that I borrowed from the Swarthmore music library. In any case, there's a barrier to mass consumption.
By comparison, a pirated CD typically becomes available via MP3 and then (often) gets shared with friends via Dropbox, BitTorrent, Google Drive, or whatever. No barriers, either temporal or physical, to multiple consumption at no additional cost.
I don't think it's a fight we can win, and I agree that it's more *effective* as an artist to think of recorded music as relationship-building with a potential audience, but that's more a recognition of the fact that digital piracy is a fait accompli than anything else. I just think the comparison to libraries and radios isn't a particularly apt one.", "timestamp": "1389215331"}, {"author": "Kelly", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644416541962", "anchor": "fb-644416541962", "service": "fb", "text": "IMO libraries and radios are equivalent to piracy in the sense that they have the same consequences for the author (except for marketing externalities). Some how, this isn't convincing to people who against piracy and for libraries. Also, selling used video games is equivalent from this perspective as well.", "timestamp": "1389216156"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644417669702", "anchor": "fb-644417669702", "service": "fb", "text": "For the last 10 years or so it has been at least somewhat acceptable to get music for free via various internet methods. At my office I try to remind people that we're in the business of licensing intellectual property, and that if we expect to get paid for ours, we should pay for everyone else's (software and music being the two most common forms). More pragmatically, if you want a band to keep producing music, vote with your dollars.", "timestamp": "1389216828"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644417849342", "anchor": "fb-644417849342", "service": "fb", "text": "While I don't play them, I disagree selling a used video game is piracy. If I no longer have the right to play and someone else does, I have transferred the right at a fee. I oppose licenses that prevent the transfer of rights, since they are only trying to deprive one of that right.", "timestamp": "1389216978"}, {"author": "David German", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/111229345142780712481", "anchor": "gp-1389217349502", "service": "gp", "text": "+1 to \"if this is a problem, Kickstarter solves it.\"\n
\n
\nhttp://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2013/07/kickstarter-and-the-nea.html", "timestamp": 1389217349}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112947709146257842066", "anchor": "gp-1389217762554", "service": "gp", "text": "To be fair, you're not trying to make a primary career out of selling your music. I don't necessarily disagree with your view, but I think looking at it from more viewpoints would bolster your argument. Unless your argument is only that piracy isn't a big deal for people playing dance music locally?", "timestamp": 1389217762}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644424246522", "anchor": "fb-644424246522", "service": "fb", "text": "@Hollis: \"your actual expenses are pretty limited to the actual pressing of discs\"
Nope; total expenses were about $2.1k and included $1.3k of mixing. Details are here: http://www.jefftk.com/.../the-economics-of-producing-your...
We're planning to do our next CD in a studio and I'm expecting it to cost around $3.2k.", "timestamp": "1389219397"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644424615782", "anchor": "fb-644424615782", "service": "fb", "text": "I think $3.2k for a studio album is optimistic, but I hope it works out! Incidentally, I would like to buy a copy of your CD at Flurry--hope we can meet up for that.
I hadn't realized that you would be paying Amy for mixing time--that makes a lot more sense with the price estimates you're talking about. Here's hoping you break even soon!", "timestamp": "1389219571"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644425194622", "anchor": "fb-644425194622", "service": "fb", "text": "@Hollis: \"For radio, it's a temporal limitation. You can't listen to it unless your radio is turned on and tuned to the station at the time of broadcast.\"
Recording radio for later is something people used to do more (mostly people do tv now) and it's completely legal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_shifting I remember as a kid we had a few tapes and videos recorded from the air. I don't think it's as socially accepted as just listening, but I've never heard people object to it. Maybe I'm just a few decades to late for that argument, though?", "timestamp": "1389219923"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644425993022", "anchor": "fb-644425993022", "service": "fb", "text": "@Hollis: \"I think $3.2k for a studio album is optimistic, but I hope it works out!\"
That's based on some rough quotes for costs, but I think it's about right. There'll be a post on it when I have the real numbers, though, so I'll get back to you!
\"I would like to buy a copy of your CD at Flurry--hope we can meet up for that.\"
That would be great! I've been meaning to get yours as well.
\"I hadn't realized that you would be paying Amy\"
Audrey, actually. She's the one who went to school for this.
\"Here's hoping you break even soon!\"
We actually have already! It took eight months from our December release to near the end of our tour in July.", "timestamp": "1389220169"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644426227552", "anchor": "fb-644426227552", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jeff: I'm not arguing that it's not acceptable; I'm arguing that almost nobody does it, so as a practical matter, it's not a big deal.", "timestamp": "1389220382"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644426312382", "anchor": "fb-644426312382", "service": "fb", "text": "Yay breaking even! Congratulations. And I should have said Audrey. Oops.", "timestamp": "1389220439"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644426576852", "anchor": "fb-644426576852", "service": "fb", "text": "The only time I tape off the radio was the original Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy radio plays, since perfect audio quality wasn't as much an issue. A friend gave the Complete set of Alan Parsons (at the time) on tape, and I made it a point when I was again getting paychecks to buy all of the CDs (right after buying a new unicycle), ah the days of the early 90s recession.", "timestamp": "1389220541"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644426646712", "anchor": "fb-644426646712", "service": "fb", "text": "Actually, I had a bunch of assumptions in my studio numbers that may not apply to you guys:
1) vocals. They take forever. Don't know if you guys do songs or just instrumentals.
2) overdubs of additional instruments. We have a lot of sets where, e.g., Aaron plays piano and does foot percussion, I switch from guitar to flute, Peter switches from fiddle to whistle, and Viveka switches from fiddle to one of her drums. All those transitions require overdubs, and that eats studio time like Candy Crush eats batteries.
3) multiple instruments in general. Each one requires a bunch of time spent picking mics, positioning them, auditioning them, and EQing/compressing them. Fewer instruments would definitely cut the price here.", "timestamp": "1389220602"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644426861282", "anchor": "fb-644426861282", "service": "fb", "text": "@Hollis: \"I'm arguing that almost nobody does it, so as a practical matter, it's not a big deal.\"
Imagine I made a little ipod like device with an FM receiver that would record all the radio around it, store it for later, categorize it, look up names based on musical hashes and a central database, and play it back on demand. Time-shifting being fair use I think this would be legal, though of course it's hard to know for sure without a case. But let's say some innovative company releases this tomorrow: would it be thought of as piracy, accepted because it's legal, or something else?", "timestamp": "1389220779"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644427120762", "anchor": "fb-644427120762", "service": "fb", "text": "@Hollis: \"1) vocals. They take forever. Don't know if you guys do songs or just instrumentals.\"
We're planning to do this one just instrumental.
\"overdubs of additional instrument\"
The current idea is to make every set something that would sound nice with just the three of us playing live, and then add limited overdubs on top of that. Then if this goes well CD #3 would probably have more overdubbing.
\"multiple instruments in general\"
We're not that instrument heavy. Right now we're probably talking about fiddle, mandolin, keyboard (with a piano sample chosen in advance), accordion, and maybe trumpet. Probably a bit of guitar from Andrew VN (who's producing). This will definitely take time.", "timestamp": "1389221013"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644427425152", "anchor": "fb-644427425152", "service": "fb", "text": "I think it'd be accepted because it's legal, and still in a slightly different category because:
- FM radio reception isn't great. You'd have to stay in good-reception areas without moving for long periods for it to be really useful to you. I would also argue that FM audio quality is low enough that the difference between it and your average MP3 would be audible and, thus, less enticing to listeners who wanted to copy the music for later use.
- radio almost never plays albums in their entirety, so you'd still only get a small fraction of a given artist's work this way. Fair use doctrine doesn't apply, but it provides a useful measure for thinking about the economic damage a given usage pattern engenders.
But it's an interesting idea. I also suspect that you might see new legislation drafted to update the time-shifting laws if a device like that became commercially available, because the existing laws were created in a time when addressing that kind of device was irrelevant due to its non-existence.", "timestamp": "1389221160"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1389221601776", "service": "gp", "text": "\"I'd rather they buy our music than copy it, but I'd rather they copy it than not listen to it.\" <== Did you consider using a license that reflects this?", "timestamp": 1389221601}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1389221785113", "service": "gp", "text": "(Finally bought the album. Sounds good!)", "timestamp": 1389221785}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644429116762", "anchor": "fb-644429116762", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jeff: Yeah, the \"sounds like us playing live\" was our goal, too, but even so, it took a bunch of overdubbing because, e.g., you can't record border pipes in the same room as anything else if you want any prayer of mixing (even if you aren't thinking about phase cancellation).", "timestamp": "1389221905"}, {"author": "Julie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644431217552", "anchor": "fb-644431217552", "service": "fb", "text": "Firecloud is about to finish our first CD, (full-length, 11 tracks). We recorded it ourselves using our own equipment, so there were no costs associated with that. We're also doing the art and layout ourselves. Still, the CD will cost $6000 by the time we pay for mixing, mastering, printing. It's hard to invest that knowing we might not get it back, since as a techno contra band, Firecloud doesn't \"hit the touring circuit\" but rather play special events once in a while. We're just trusting that people will choose to buy the CD and support us - we hope.", "timestamp": "1389223458"}, {"author": "Adam Yie", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/114873051319510815414", "anchor": "gp-1389224069462", "service": "gp", "text": "Do all three of you share these opinions?", "timestamp": 1389224069}, {"author": "Sam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644434780412", "anchor": "fb-644434780412", "service": "fb", "text": "I will buy it Julie!", "timestamp": "1389225748"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644444575782", "anchor": "fb-644444575782", "service": "fb", "text": "@Julie: would you be comfortable sharing the breakdown of the $6k? And how many copies is that for the printing of?", "timestamp": "1389232702"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1389232923336", "service": "gp", "text": "@Adam Yie\n\u00a0\"Do all three of you share these opinions?\"\n
\n
\nProbably not? \u00a0I haven't talked to them about it. \u00a0Everything I'm saying here is just my opinion.", "timestamp": 1389232923}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1389233092075", "service": "gp", "text": "@David Chudzicki\n\u00a0\"Did you consider using a license that reflects this?\"\n
\n
\nI don't really see how to do this with licensing. \u00a0A permissive license would imply that copying was completely fine, but buying is the encouraged option.", "timestamp": 1389233092}, {"author": "Julie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644445459012", "anchor": "fb-644445459012", "service": "fb", "text": "Sure, it's pretty straightforward. Mixing = $1800 to $2400 (depending how things go/ what it needs). Mastering = $500 to $1000 (depending). Probably the higher number for both of those. Printing 1000 copies on a \"medium fast\" schedule, plus shipping = $1500, or $1800 if we miss the first deadline and need to do rush. Incidentals like traveling for mixing, traveling for mastering, royalties, CDBaby Pro = another $800 or so. Our album is complicated to mix. It contains about 500-800 separate audio tracks in 11 different \"cuts\" or \" songs\". We've done more than a hundred hours of work on our own to write, rehearse, record it. We engineered and produced it ourselves. I spent more than 20 hours exporting all the tracks from Ableton to Protools for mixing. We'll have to sell ~400 CD's just to break even. I doubt we'd ever make a \"profit\" in any sense of the word, since any extra money would just be a very small \"stipend\" to us for all the unpaid work we did on it. It is truly a labor of love :)", "timestamp": "1389233325"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1389233395983", "service": "gp", "text": "@Todd\n\u00a0\"To be fair, you're not trying to make a primary career out of selling your music.\"\n
\n
\nRight. \u00a0One could mock my argument as \"programmer who plays music as a hobby not worried about people copying self-recorded niche-genre CD\".\n
\n
\nMost people in traditional music have other sources of income, though, (you kind of have to) and people in similar situations to me do feel strongly about copyright, so there is still something here. \u00a0And while my experience is relatively restricted I think it applies to most small bands that mostly play live.", "timestamp": 1389233395}, {"author": "Julie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644445723482", "anchor": "fb-644445723482", "service": "fb", "text": "But to get to your point - sure, I'd rather our music fall into people's hands one way or another and that they enjoy it. When I have ripped CD's given to me by friends (like I just can't wait to buy it from the band) , I often go to see the band live and just hand them $10 or $15 and explain why.", "timestamp": "1389233497"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644445743442", "anchor": "fb-644445743442", "service": "fb", "text": "@Julie: thanks for the details!
\"500-800 separate audio tracks\"
Sorting out copyright must also be an expensive mess.", "timestamp": "1389233508"}, {"author": "Julie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644445898132", "anchor": "fb-644445898132", "service": "fb", "text": "Actually, we have no copyright issues. Almost all of the sounds are created by us. Like about 98%. We do a lot of our own sound design. We do use some old school drum loops like vinyl breakbeat loops, but that's a standard in electronic music and I think the loops are so small and barely recognizable, and it's such a common practice, I don't think it's a copyright issue.", "timestamp": "1389233602"}, {"author": "Julie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644445938052", "anchor": "fb-644445938052", "service": "fb", "text": "(correct me if I'm wrong, though in some ways I don't want to know, haha)", "timestamp": "1389233617"}, {"author": "Julie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644446012902", "anchor": "fb-644446012902", "service": "fb", "text": "We're just paying royalties - standard 9 cent mechanical - for the composer of one tune, the only tune on the album not by us.", "timestamp": "1389233653"}, {"author": "Max", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644450309292", "anchor": "fb-644450309292", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, your post is inspiring some thoughts (or are they rants?) from me....
As a MUSICIAN, I must admit it is indeed rewarding (for me) to have people listen and enjoy, however they got a hold of it. I would of course prefer things work out financially in a way that allows me to make more music and make it more easily. (In my experience, $8k-$12k is what most folk-type albums cost, which I hope people recognize and appreciate. Recording, mixing, mastering, artwork, printing. The musician is basically the only person in the chain you can get away with not paying.)
But, more importantly, as a CONSUMER OF MUSIC, I feel as if paying for music that interests me and that I listen to is a responsibility I need to take seriously. This is especially true -- though not only true -- when it comes to artists and art forms that subsist on direct purchases. I spend a lot of money, perhaps too much, on albums that I already have or could have pirated. I resist the urge to feel entitled to free music. (\"Hey, maybe I don't make that much money. Plus I'm a musician myself, so uh I need more music than everyone else.\")
Paying for music is, for me, a social responsibility and necessary to encourage the arts that I enjoy. The investment of actually spending money on something, enhances my ownership and appreciation of the art and makes me appreciate how finite and personal art is.
That said, if you have any cool out-of-print recordings to share, send 'em my way. ;)", "timestamp": "1389234203"}, {"author": "Sam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644451841222", "anchor": "fb-644451841222", "service": "fb", "text": "As a non musician I really appreciate your labors of love and try to buy cds whenever I go to a dance and am particularly impressed with what I hear. Personally I try not to pirate things that are independently produced. I just get really bothered when I hear about people getting enormous fines or having their computers confiscated or music venues being shut down because I don't think that independent music producers like y'all have the legal resources to do that sort of thing and it's usually big corporations that are likely sharing very little if any with the actual artists.", "timestamp": "1389235112"}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1389283715288", "service": "gp", "text": "Patreon is another model for this sort of thing.", "timestamp": 1389283715}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1389289331631", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff Kaufman\n\u00a0, it seems to me like a the license is about what people are permitted to do (without infringing on your rights). Since you'd rather they listen to it without paying than not listen to it, I figured you'd be happy to permit that. Your preference that people pay can be expressed in other ways, right?\n
\n
\nBut I guess maybe not -- perhaps what you're doing is the best way to send the signal that you'd rather people pay. I find it a confusing mixed message, but I'm more literal-minded than most people.", "timestamp": 1389289331}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1389289481238", "service": "gp", "text": "About the license thing: Seems to me like the difference between \"free\" and \"pay what you can\".", "timestamp": 1389289481}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1389290743152", "service": "gp", "text": "@David Chudzicki\n\u00a0I wonder if someone could make an estoppel argument based on this post? \u00a0Though I'm not the sole copyright owner in this case.", "timestamp": 1389290743}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1389290827134", "service": "gp", "text": "@Josh\n\u00a0'Seems to me like the difference between \"free\" and \"pay what you can\"'\n
\n
\nIn practice I expect people pay less with \"pay what you can\" than \"we charge $X\".", "timestamp": 1389290827}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1389290979382", "service": "gp", "text": "@Jeff Kaufman\n\u00a0\"\u00a0estoppel argument \"\u00a0\n
\n
\n:)", "timestamp": 1389290979}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644501880942", "anchor": "fb-644501880942", "service": "fb", "text": "I can't really explain why, but I would be more likely to give someone money for a kickstarter than an already printed album. I'm guessing I'm not in the majority there, but it's the case for me.", "timestamp": "1389294990"}, {"author": "Sam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644518437762", "anchor": "fb-644518437762", "service": "fb", "text": "I would too Chris and I know why it is for me. With the kickstarter approach the artist is saying \"hey internet, I had this idea for some art, his much money do you think it's worth?\". With the conventional approach the artist is saying \"I made this thing and it cost me this much, if you want to hear more then I'd like done money\". With the former I am involved in the artist's process by having the opportunity to let them know I think their idea is promising. With the conventional approach I'm encouraging the artist to continue assuming whatever they make is valuable.. This conversation is sparking all sorts of ideas in my head..", "timestamp": "1389303624"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644521915792", "anchor": "fb-644521915792", "service": "fb", "text": "Part of that is probably that when you pledge on kickstarter, you feel a lot more like you're part of the creation process.", "timestamp": "1389305980"}, {"author": "Julie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644523497622", "anchor": "fb-644523497622", "service": "fb", "text": "You know, funny that you mention it... Firecloud was planning to take this live tonight completely independent of this conversation ;) drum roll please... http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/firecloud-album/", "timestamp": "1389307030"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=644524934742", "anchor": "fb-644524934742", "service": "fb", "text": "I think I'm actually less likely to pledge on indiegogo. Partially because I don't yet have an account, but also because I like that on kickstarter, if the project doesn't reach its goal, the money doesn't come out of my account. I think that might have to do with my feeling with kickstarter that I'm helping make it happen.", "timestamp": "1389308152"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/644413627802?comment_id=668222669292", "anchor": "fb-668222669292", "service": "fb", "text": "@Hollis, Julie: I just went over the numbers, and $3.2k was indeed optimistic; it cost about twice that much: http://www.jefftk.com/p/the-economics-of-a-studio-cd
So how did I get such a low estimate? I had taken our previous CD and added estimated recording costs, and considered on its own that's pretty much right. But with this CD we added a whole bunch of things: working with a producer, guest musicians, professional art and photos, many more tunes with royalties, printing more copies, and color digipack instead of hand stamping. Those add up, though I think they all added enough to be worth their costs!", "timestamp": "1405420377"}]}