{"items": [{"author": "Ralph", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641134908382", "anchor": "fb-641134908382", "service": "fb", "text": "Places like womens' shelters and Councils on Aging like to have them because, even without a service plan, 9-1-1 works. Your old, useless phone can somebody else's life line.", "timestamp": "1386980779"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641135063072", "anchor": "fb-641135063072", "service": "fb", "text": "@Ralph: agreed, but not about the \"useless\". A phone you've just stopped using is generally still really useful.", "timestamp": "1386980900"}, {"author": "Ralph", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641135537122", "anchor": "fb-641135537122", "service": "fb", "text": "I was meaning \"useless to me\" (unless I feel that I have some need for 2 cell phones).", "timestamp": "1386981138"}, {"author": "Robin", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641136540112", "anchor": "fb-641136540112", "service": "fb", "text": "unless you want a backup cell phone, in case your new one gets stolen or breaks.", "timestamp": "1386981800"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641136734722", "anchor": "fb-641136734722", "service": "fb", "text": "@Robin: the market is liquid; you can sell yours now and buy back a different one if that happens.", "timestamp": "1386981894"}, {"author": "Aleksandra", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641136744702", "anchor": "fb-641136744702", "service": "fb", "text": "^ Ditto. Having a backup cell phone can be really useful. If I didn't want a backup, I might be likely to give an old phone away.", "timestamp": "1386981895"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641136814562", "anchor": "fb-641136814562", "service": "fb", "text": "Another way of thinking about backup phones: if you don't currently have a backup should you go out and buy one?", "timestamp": "1386981989"}, {"author": "Robin", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641137148892", "anchor": "fb-641137148892", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff... the market is only relatively liquid. Selling requires a fair amount of effort and time (research, listing on ebay and going to post office or posting on facebook and figuring a way to get it to your friend), so does buying.
My backup phone used to be my previous phone, then I gave that away and bought a cheap one on ebay. When I get a new phone (soon), I will most likely keep my current phone as backup (partly because it has a broken screen which makes it a lot harder to resell).", "timestamp": "1386982390"}, {"author": "Amy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641137268652", "anchor": "fb-641137268652", "service": "fb", "text": "So I have a box of cell phones that I'd like to unload, but I am concerned about the data that's on it. I read that even if you erase everything, it's sill on there.", "timestamp": "1386982453"}, {"author": "Neil", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641137727732", "anchor": "fb-641137727732", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff except that for many people the correct analogy is someone paying you to take a backup phone. If you're phone is worth $0 getting rid of it is a cost.", "timestamp": "1386982678"}, {"author": "Aleksandra", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641138740702", "anchor": "fb-641138740702", "service": "fb", "text": "Getting rid of a phone doesn't necessarily have a cost - I've seen huge collection bins for cell phones at various charity events, for instance. That said, keeping a phone is often cheaper than buying a basic backup later (depending on what type of phone you have.)", "timestamp": "1386983215"}, {"author": "Neil", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641138970242", "anchor": "fb-641138970242", "service": "fb", "text": "Fair enough, if you know you're likely to come across one, it may not be a cost. Acquiring a backup when you need one definitely is, in time and/or money.", "timestamp": "1386983486"}, {"author": "Neil", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641139104972", "anchor": "fb-641139104972", "service": "fb", "text": "\u2026 as I see others have already mentioned.", "timestamp": "1386983559"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1386983996"}, {"author": "George", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641140591992", "anchor": "fb-641140591992", "service": "fb", "text": "What about worrying about people recovering your data from one of your devices and using it to aid fraud and identity theft?", "timestamp": "1386984670"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641143511142", "anchor": "fb-641143511142", "service": "fb", "text": "@George: wipe the phone before selling it. After that as far as I've been able to find there are no reports of used phones being used for identity theft, even though the data might be possible to recover.", "timestamp": "1386986185"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641144204752", "anchor": "fb-641144204752", "service": "fb", "text": "@Neil: \"If you're phone is worth $0 getting rid of it is a cost.\"
Sure. But relatively recent phones in working order are worth much more than $0.", "timestamp": "1386986302"}, {"author": "Robin", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641147473202", "anchor": "fb-641147473202", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff... you seem to be neglecting that the cell phone companies may have thought of this and may have specifically designed their products to have low resale value.
Contracts give you a bonus to buy phones and are usually renewed every two years (where you'll get another bonus to buy a new phone). A phone which is two years old doesn't have high resale value, and in all likelihood has some sort of damage.", "timestamp": "1386988206"}, {"author": "Ken", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/104541722876199850443", "anchor": "gp-1386998229883", "service": "gp", "text": "I just sold my five-year-old MacBook Pro on eBay just yesterday. \u00a0I was surprised at how much it went for, given that I listed its USB ports as non-functional. \u00a0Assuming the buyer knows what he's getting, it's a win-win all around.", "timestamp": 1386998229}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641177328372", "anchor": "fb-641177328372", "service": "fb", "text": "As dependent as many of us are on our phones, I think a good case can be made for buying a backup phone if you don't have an old one to keep for that purpose, or the financial resources to buy a new one at full price. Never mind all the sad people whose phones die a few weeks before the newest model comes out, and are stuck with a year-old phone.
I've certainly considered this WRT my laptop--if that were lost or stolen I'd be pretty unhappy. I have a newer Mac mini that could work in a pinch but it would be highly inconvenient. All that said, if you're upgrading to a significantly faster phone, the old one might be too slow to bother keeping. Find a sucker to sell it to.", "timestamp": "1387018765"}, {"author": "Samuel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641182093822", "anchor": "fb-641182093822", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff Kaufman: I have deliberately bought a backup phone (years ago) and, even before seeing your post, had a couple of open eBay bids to get another. I use an older device, I have reasons to prefer it over new ones, and the current device has been in service with me for about three years. Time to keep a hot spare on hand.", "timestamp": "1387029887"}, {"author": "Samuel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641182188632", "anchor": "fb-641182188632", "service": "fb", "text": "@Robin: but some carriers are breaking from that phone subsidy model. T-Mobile and MVNOs like Ting are leading that charge.", "timestamp": "1387030017"}, {"author": "Robin", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641226454922", "anchor": "fb-641226454922", "service": "fb", "text": "Samuel... those carriers are probably breaking from that tradition because they don't have good relationships with phone manufacturers. There was a time when it wasn't clear who the market leader was in manufacturing cell phones, then Apple become #1, shortly afterwards Samsung became the competition, the other brands have no major recognition or loyalty, so they (Samsung and Apple) can create exclusive contracts with the bigger carriers (ie not Tmobile).", "timestamp": "1387053304"}, {"author": "Brad", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/116032343632043704302", "anchor": "gp-1387114021700", "service": "gp", "text": "This goes for digital cameras too. Last year when I upgraded my camera I did some research to find organizations that take old digital cameras and donate them to university research projects, mainly in developing countries. I ended up donating it to the environmental studies department at my local university, where it's being used by students in field research projects in South America. For laptops, I found a nonprofit in my city that accepts used laptops, reconditions them, and sends them to partner organizations in developing countries. I've donated most of my old computer equipment to them.\u00a0", "timestamp": 1387114021}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641308615272", "anchor": "fb-641308615272", "service": "fb", "text": "@Robin: \"A phone which is two years old doesn't have high resale value\"
It's still significant, with smartphones at least. My phone (Galaxy SII) is now a bit over two years old, and looking on craigslist I think I could get $100-$200 for it. Though until I actually try I could easily be missing something.
\"all likelihood has some sort of damage.\"
That's an interesting question; what fraction of people make it through two years without damaging their phone? I see a lot of phones with cracked screens, but I feel like I saw more of them a year or two ago before bumper cases were as common? I would guess maybe 75% of people make it through the two years without damaging their phone in a way that removes most of its resale value?", "timestamp": "1387128521"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641308685132", "anchor": "fb-641308685132", "service": "fb", "text": "@Samuel: \"T-Mobile and MVNOs like Ting are leading that charge.\"
They may be breaking from that model, but they're still selling the same phones. The strategy of \"sell something that's good for now but won't last long\" has been increasingly successful across nearly all markets.", "timestamp": "1387128594"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641330082252", "anchor": "fb-641330082252", "service": "fb", "text": "How much would you have to pay for an unsubsidized replacement for your SII? How much does phone insurance cost, whether or not you buy it? And (most importantly) how useful is your old phone going to be in two years? I could live with my iPhone 4 (not even a 4S) for quite a while if my 5 were to be irreparably damaged. (Of course, unlocked iPhones fetch quite a bit more on the used market than phone insurance would cost for two years, but I'm betting that's not true for most other phones.)", "timestamp": "1387138214"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641332247912", "anchor": "fb-641332247912", "service": "fb", "text": "@Kiran: \"How much would you have to pay for an unsubsidized replacement for your SII?\"
The same \"$100-$200\" I think I could sell it for on Craigslist. (But you do need to count the hassle.) Alternatively, if I wanted a more modern phone with different tradeoffs I would strongly consider the Moto G, which is $180 new unsubsidized (and no hassle).
\"How much does phone insurance cost, whether or not you buy it?\"
My expectation is phone insurance is overpriced because the people who buy it are the ones who think they will need it an \"underpriced\" because you're getting less than you think (they'll try had to avoid paying out). It's also not a very competitive market because it's usually sold as an add-on to a phone purchase. So I'm not sure it has prices we can learn much from.", "timestamp": "1387139839"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641338345692", "anchor": "fb-641338345692", "service": "fb", "text": "Maybe I should rephrase the question. How much does your phone cost new, unsubsidized, and how does that compare to the subsidized price? That's the issue most smartphone users other than you actually face: lots of them don't have the money to pay the full cost up front.
I did sell my iPhone 4 because I *could* buy an unlocked replacement at full price if necessary, and because my experience is that I wouldn't lose or break my phone in the space of two years. If I had to replace my subsidized phone in the first year, I would've had to pay (barring any indulgences from Apple) $349 more than the subsidized price. In the second year, I'd pay $249 over the price. Or my provider might be indulgent, and let me sign a new contract for hardware whose feature set is already out of date.
$400-ish might not seem like a lot at your income level; I certainly don't find the base $100 upfront price to be particularly expensive (I've even made two offers to pay the upfront cost of a subsidized iPhone if my friends decide they can cover the monthly costs) but I know plenty of people who can't (or think they can't) afford the $100 upfront price. That $100 phone becomes a $449 phone if you lose or break it in the first year.
(Did you actually misunderstand the intent of my questions, or are you deliberately answering literally from your nonstandard experience to support your position even though your situation is different from the norm?)
As for phone insurance, leaving aside why people think they need extended warranties and whether they're justifiable, if people are paying as much as they get from selling their old phone, and their old phone is still usable, that strongly weakens the argument that they should sell it just to be rid of it.
Of course the part about still being usable is pretty important. I recently fired up my iPhone 3G and downloaded some offline mapping software in the hope that I could give it to Aleks so she could have maps on her travels. It took literally minutes to render map tiles, never mind to zoom them, completely unusable in practice--you could walk halfway to your destination before the damn map loaded. But recent high-end phone hardware has reached the point of \"fast enough\" so that even after you upgrade (for new features, not speed) it remains quite useful for things like controlling Mackie mixers, translating Chinese, monitoring Bluetooth devices....", "timestamp": "1387143664"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641373634972", "anchor": "fb-641373634972", "service": "fb", "text": "@Kiran: Good phones are getting cheaper and cheaper (unsubsidized, without contract). Last year this was the $300 Nexus 4, this year the $180 Moto G. This really changes the logic here a lot.", "timestamp": "1387165575"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641376589052", "anchor": "fb-641376589052", "service": "fb", "text": "That depends on what you mean by \"good.\" The reviews I read of the Moto G suggested that it was a decent low-end phone, but nothing exciting. \"it performs a lot like a high-end phone from a couple of years ago\" says Ars Technica. \"If you buy subsidized phones on-contract and you don't have any particular problem with that contact, there's no reason to tie yourself to the Moto G.\" So you might as well keep your two year old high-end phone. And to what degree is the cost low because Motorola is being subsidized by Google's attempt to pry a share of the market away from Apple?
And the Moto G doesn't support LTE. That's pretty much a refutation of the claim that this is actually a modern smartphone.
Furthermore, if you're correct in your belief that the Moth G is \"good,\" that certainly does change the logic a lot. Why would anyone pay $100-200 for a used phone when they could buy a good new one off-contract?", "timestamp": "1387167256"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641423939162", "anchor": "fb-641423939162", "service": "fb", "text": "@Kiran: \"Why would anyone pay $100-200 for a used phone when they could buy a good new one off-contract?\"
This was why I was talking about there being tradeoffs. The big one in this case is battery life (new phone is better) vs camera (old high-end phone is better).
\"the Moto G doesn't support LTE\"
HSPA+ is still very fast and LTE isn't available everywhere. My current phone doesn't support LTE and while I suspect my next one will and I will like that, speeds 3G and faster are basically fine.
\"to what degree is the cost low because Motorola is being subsidized by Google's attempt to pry a share of the market away from Apple?\"
I don't know, and there may not be any subsidization, but even if there is why does this matter as a consumer?
\"If you buy subsidized phones on-contract and you don't have any particular problem with that contact, there's no reason to tie yourself to the Moto G.\"
The main reason being you can save lots of money by not accepting that contract. Yes, if you treat the contract as a given you might as well take the best phone they'll include with it, but you have a choice.", "timestamp": "1387216490"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/641133945312?comment_id=641426244542", "anchor": "fb-641426244542", "service": "fb", "text": "As Jeff said in the OP, when you buy a subsidized phone, you're still paying the full price for the phone, it's just hidden in the form of higher monthly rates. An iPhone 5S doesn't really cost $200, no matter what the wireless service try to tell you. What the contract really does is ensure that you pay at least $450 every two years for your phone, no matter what. You're far better off paying the full price, so that if nothing else you can properly judge if a $650 iPhone is worth twice as much as a Nexus 5/Moto X, three times a Moto G, or 6 times a Nokia 520/521.
For the vast majority of phone users, any of the phones I just listed would do everything you need (and, amazingly, quite smoothly). All that really differentiates them are things like camera, physical style, screen quality, and game performance. There are definitely people who would pay extra for those things, but I think the majority, if you confronted them with the real relative costs of the devices, would choose the cheaper ones.", "timestamp": "1387218341"}]}