{"items": [{"author": "Jill", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829431395712", "anchor": "fb-829431395712", "service": "fb", "text": "I like that the dancers seem to be in the middle of the Hammer Dance. :-p", "timestamp": "1481121894"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829431395712&reply_comment_id=829473735862", "anchor": "fb-829431395712_829473735862", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The visual style made me think this was an XKCD article at first. Go Jeff.", "timestamp": "1481140351"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829431395712&reply_comment_id=829475113102", "anchor": "fb-829431395712_829475113102", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Hollis: visual style is free-draw lines in inkscape, tell inkscape to simplify the line, change point type to auto-smooth", "timestamp": "1481140727"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1481162964"}, {"author": "Jordy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829431460582", "anchor": "fb-829431460582", "service": "fb", "text": "THANK YOU", "timestamp": "1481121925"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829435163162", "anchor": "fb-829435163162", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm not sure I like \"as high as possible,\" but I agree fully with Jeff's sentiment.
Stirring the pot: how loud should the sound be? If it's louder than about 85 dB (whatever that means, and I know it's not simple), I'll be wearing earplugs - which isn't ideal for me and it's not what the musicians want either. (I offer to divert the subject because I think it's part of and related to speaker placement.)", "timestamp": "1481123890"}, {"author": "Jordy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829435163162&reply_comment_id=829435552382", "anchor": "fb-829435163162_829435552382", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I have kinda soft hearing, so I personally like it louder, but having clarity will trump decibels any day. Having good sound attenuation, direct angle placement, and good speakers will eliminate the need to turn the sound up past 87 or so. Also, if the size of the hall demnads it, having a second set of speakers 2/3 back on a delay will reduce the need to blast the ones up front. I'm fine with quieter sound under these conditions, as long as it is being adjusted to room noise, and body count (which also attenuates sound). I just want to be able to hear the music above the chatter of dancers and shuffling of feet.", "timestamp": "1481124170"}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829435163162&reply_comment_id=829439249972", "anchor": "fb-829435163162_829439249972", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Alas, I can never make everyone happy with volume choices, since people's ears are all different. My goal is to be able to have a conversation at a normal volume while the music is playing.
I've had to wear earplugs at parties with no music playing, so just conversation could be loud enough for earplugs.
Sunday night at BIDA I got the band down to 82db and it was still clear. For an open band, it was pretty amazing.", "timestamp": "1481125314"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1481128641"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829435163162&reply_comment_id=829446874692", "anchor": "fb-829435163162_829446874692", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Henry, you are as high as possible.", "timestamp": "1481128730"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1481129131"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829435163162&reply_comment_id=829458700992", "anchor": "fb-829435163162_829458700992", "service": "fb", "text": "→ For most people the louder you make it the better it will sound, in terms of clarity, excitement, energy, dynamic range, etc. Which is why many clubs, concerts, etc will run sound loud enough that people get hearing damage. As someone who both finds sound that loud painful, and who wants to be able to hear after years of doing this, I'm really thankful that the contra community has consensed on lower volumes than the culture at large.
At contras I'm generally trying to hit a pretty narrow window between \"loud enough to feel the energy\" and \"not so loud as to be unpleasant for people who like it quieter\" while being sure to stay below \"loud enough to hurt people\".", "timestamp": "1481134585"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829435163162&reply_comment_id=829460178032", "anchor": "fb-829435163162_829460178032", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I read somewhere else on one of the many contra dance forums that one night the dancers seemed sluggish, so one dancer (forgot if it was the organizer or not) asked for the volume to be increased and then the energy of the hall increased. It would seem to be that there's certainly a happy medium of volume to be had, but of course the right mix is necessary. Maybe the volume of the music was OK but the fiddle was not heard very well, so maybe the sound person turned up the fiddle alone and that increased the energy. I would not be for general increases in sound as that can get painful for dancers, and the older I get the more I realize that it's not always the case where volume equals more excitement. Of course if you can't hear it in the back then that's something that should be addressed too.", "timestamp": "1481135129"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829435163162&reply_comment_id=829471505332", "anchor": "fb-829435163162_829471505332", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Perry: \"I read somewhere else on one of the many contra dance forums...\"
I think you're referring to Ridge's post on trad-dance-caller yesterday?", "timestamp": "1481139294"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829435163162&reply_comment_id=829471610122", "anchor": "fb-829435163162_829471610122", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Maybe. I don't quite remember exactly where I read it. You're probably right.", "timestamp": "1481139342"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1481142037"}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829435163162&reply_comment_id=829479294722", "anchor": "fb-829435163162_829479294722", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Henry Yeah, I carry earplugs in my bag all the time, there was actually a dance at LEAF where they weren't even enough and I had to leave. You can imagine how loud that had to be, right?
I'd be interested in seeing what level you'd like at a contra dance I do sound at. There's a level I just can't go below, because the end of a line needs to be able to hear the beat at least.
My mixer can do time-delay sound reinforcement down the hall. If there was a room too long, I'd totally do this. Dereck Kalish and I set this up at Spark in the Dark when it was in the gymnasium. It was pretty great!", "timestamp": "1481142316"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1481148130"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829435163162&reply_comment_id=830848895032", "anchor": "fb-829435163162_830848895032", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Henry \"I always figure there was high-energy dance happening even before the advent of serious amplification\"
Although I also prefer music on the quieter end, I have to point out that they were probably dealing with much smaller halls before the advent of serious amplification. In those few cases where that's not true, the acoustics of the hall are built to amplify sounds from a particular area (and there's probably an expectation that the audience, probably not dancers, will not create substantial background noise.) Opera might be the area to study.", "timestamp": "1481312285"}, {"author": "John", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829450088252", "anchor": "fb-829450088252", "service": "fb", "text": "Our hall in JP is challenging because the ceiling is domed so it is important to have the speakers not-too high and pointed down to reduce the dome effect.", "timestamp": "1481130297"}, {"author": "John", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829450158112", "anchor": "fb-829450158112", "service": "fb", "text": "I think the priorities for sound are:
1. Can you hear the caller clearly?
2. Can you hear the phrase and beat clearly?
without these dancers will have a lot of trouble.
3. Is the Band happy?", "timestamp": "1481130345"}, {"author": "Mark", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829460896592", "anchor": "fb-829460896592", "service": "fb", "text": "If the ceiling is not low, then there can be a mitigating factor in picture #3, especially if the speaker is designed with a narrow vertical dispersion. Namely, the people at the back of the hall, though farther from the speaker, are more on axis in terms of the vertical beaming of the speaker.", "timestamp": "1481135508"}, {"author": "Pete", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829463296782", "anchor": "fb-829463296782", "service": "fb", "text": "Oliver Scanlon", "timestamp": "1481135976"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829475602122", "anchor": "fb-829475602122", "service": "fb", "text": "Something worth mentioning is that NIOSH and OSHA have recommendations for occupational noise exposure that play into this. Generally everyone agrees that 85 dB-A is an acceptable *maximum* for 8-hour day noise exposure. NIOSH proposes a 3 dB exchange (add 3 dB, halve the allowable exposure), while OSHA allows a 5 dB exchange.
Assuming that a contra dance lasts roughly three hours, plus an hour for setup, sound check, and beginner lesson ( = 4 hours), that gives a NIOSH exposure limit of 88 dB-A and an OSHA limit of 90 dB-A.
This relates to Andrew and Jordy's points above. There are questions about whether dance halls/organizers are *legally* governed by OSHA/NIOSH when it comes to occupational noise exposure, but the physics should be the same. Jordy's point worries me particularly because it articulates a best-case-scenario argument in which the theoretical lowest sound level is only a decibel below the NIOSH-permitted maximum for the length of a dance. This implies that, most of the time, we'd expect the noise to be much louder.", "timestamp": "1481141001"}, {"author": "Eric", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829475602122&reply_comment_id=829475786752", "anchor": "fb-829475602122_829475786752", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Great suggestion there!", "timestamp": "1481141148"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829475602122&reply_comment_id=829482493312", "anchor": "fb-829475602122_829482493312", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"plus an hour for setup, sound check, and beginner lesson\"
those are all going to be much quieter than the dance, as is the break and the time between dances", "timestamp": "1481144033"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829475602122&reply_comment_id=829485522242", "anchor": "fb-829475602122_829485522242", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think that relies on assumptions about size of band, sound person's approach, size and characteristics of crowd and venue, etc., that may not be accurate. But even if you completely discount all of it and assume only two hours of music, that's still only 91 or 95 dB-A of allowable exposure.", "timestamp": "1481145235"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829475602122&reply_comment_id=829486674932", "anchor": "fb-829475602122_829486674932", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"91 or 95 dB-A\" is really loud! I don't think any of the contra dances I go to get up that high.", "timestamp": "1481145833"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829475602122&reply_comment_id=829501974272", "anchor": "fb-829475602122_829501974272", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Agreed that it's loud; less confident that dances don't get that loud.", "timestamp": "1481153292"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829475602122&reply_comment_id=829509484222", "anchor": "fb-829475602122_829509484222", "service": "fb", "text": "→ 95 is 10x louder than 85, and 85 feels normal to me", "timestamp": "1481157364"}, {"author": "Will", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829475602122&reply_comment_id=830069452042", "anchor": "fb-829475602122_830069452042", "service": "fb", "text": "→ At the Dance Flurry the ambient noise floor of room D filled with dancers is over 83dB. No dancing, no music, just humans moving and talking. It is impossible to present a clear music and caller mix at only 2dB above this. Sound levels can easily reach 95dB at musical and dance energy peaks.", "timestamp": "1481206581"}, {"author": "Will", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829475602122&reply_comment_id=830069472002", "anchor": "fb-829475602122_830069472002", "service": "fb", "text": "→ SO....take some personal responsibility for you own safety and always bring...AND WEAR hearing protection to events such as this.", "timestamp": "1481206621"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829475602122&reply_comment_id=830843445952", "anchor": "fb-829475602122_830843445952", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman your math ignores generally accepted psych-acoustic standards. 10 DB difference \"feels\" roughly twice as loud.", "timestamp": "1481309494"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829480517272", "anchor": "fb-829480517272", "service": "fb", "text": "I think the tempo of the music has a lot more to do with the energy in the hall than the volume. Aside from it often being painful, I hate social situations where I can't easily talk to a person in close proximity because the music is too loud. The social component of contra is pretty important, so I think loud actually takes away from the whole.", "timestamp": "1481142981"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829484619052", "anchor": "fb-829484619052", "service": "fb", "text": "Regarding music too loud, it's not just a comfort thing, it's a health thing. Above, Danner said he could \"never make everyone happy\" wrt volume when running sound. I get that, and in any crowd, some part of the bell curve is going to be complainers. However, and no disrespect intended to Danner...
Maybe you 20- and 30-something folks hang with mostly young musicians. I'm relatively ancient, and I hang with both young and old musicians. A lot of older musicians are hearing impaired from exposure to loud music, often their own. A number of them are both deaf and they run sound at gigs, that's sad, but not the worst part of being hearing impaired.
Regarding, \"how bad could it be?\"... A few years ago, maybe 2010 or so, I went to see a Tom Tom Club reunion gig at a club in Boston. I met a friend my age, and also a 20-something contra dance friend. The band was loud as is typical at rock gigs, and my older friend and I chilled in the back of the room with ear-plugs. My young friend was particularly excited about the gig, and went up to the front, and had no earplugs. I had extra ones, but I didn't want to be a middle-aged dork and suggest that she use them. My mistake.
As a result of that one show, my young friend developed tinnitus (ringing in the ears) and suffered from it for several years, maybe she still suffers from it.
I'm not saying that your local contra dance is going to cause hearing loss as readily as standing in front of the speakers at a rock show, but I will say that too-loud sound at an event can wreck your hearing, and fast, and permanently. Less severe loud sound can wreck your hearing more gradually. I still have decent hearing and I am careful with it.", "timestamp": "1481144605"}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829484619052&reply_comment_id=830816105742", "anchor": "fb-829484619052_830816105742", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I totally agree! I always have earplugs available (sound engineers with blown ears play music too loud) and I've had to leave when the 20db reduction wasn't enough to be comfortable.
You gotta be damn careful with your ears, they're an important data source that requires a high degree of calibration.", "timestamp": "1481299456"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829484619052&reply_comment_id=830819179582", "anchor": "fb-829484619052_830819179582", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Danner, some places I dance (not usually contra) play the music too loud, so I always carry foam earplugs, but I haven't been in places where the 20 dB wasn't enough. I guess realistically speaking, that's just anything over 105 dB, like a chainsaw or a gun. But yikes.", "timestamp": "1481300132"}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829484619052&reply_comment_id=830821754422", "anchor": "fb-829484619052_830821754422", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Andrew yeah, downstairs at the middle east can get too loud, my ears were ringing with my earplugs in (I looked at the guy running sound, he didn't have earplugs in, he must have had the most dead ears ever!). One electronic band at LEAF was this loud too, and I had to leave the dance hall.", "timestamp": "1481300997"}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829527283552", "anchor": "fb-829527283552", "service": "fb", "text": "If you have about $400 to burn you can get these tilters which compensate for the change in center of gravity: http://bt-12.com/index.php", "timestamp": "1481163692"}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829527283552&reply_comment_id=829527488142", "anchor": "fb-829527283552_829527488142", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I've never used or actually seen them in person, but that's what they're designed to do anyway.", "timestamp": "1481163853"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=829527283552&reply_comment_id=829538401272", "anchor": "fb-829527283552_829538401272", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Josh I've seen them in person. They're as good as they look, though a bit heavy and bulky to carry. However, if you're tilting really big speakers (like my friend who has a pair does), they're great.", "timestamp": "1481169192"}, {"author": "Harrison", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=830185574332", "anchor": "fb-830185574332", "service": "fb", "text": "What is contra?", "timestamp": "1481220891"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=830185574332&reply_comment_id=830189990482", "anchor": "fb-830185574332_830189990482", "service": "fb", "text": "→ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beOFeIIk4KY", "timestamp": "1481221436"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=830820162612", "anchor": "fb-830820162612", "service": "fb", "text": "Regarding the contra dance music too loud, one other idea that I think hasn't been mentioned. If you are at a rock show or a swing dance, you can choose where you are going to sit or stand or dance, and you can stay away from the speakers if you want.
Not really so for a contra dancer. You can start at the back of the hall, but you are going to end up at the front of the hall. Yes, you can line up in a set that is not \"right in front of the speakers,\" but still, you'll end up near the top of the set, and there's not much you can do about it in a practical sense. A contra dancer has limited control over where they end up.", "timestamp": "1481300600"}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=830820162612&reply_comment_id=830822248432", "anchor": "fb-830820162612_830822248432", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Great reason to have the speakers up high, to balance out the proximity. A reason BIDA turns out so well, we can put the speakers on stage as high as they can go.
I'm researching my own PA setup at the moment, I'm thinking of always having speakers set up halfway down the hall as reinforcement, so each speaker can be smaller and quieter.", "timestamp": "1481301211"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=830820162612&reply_comment_id=830829044812", "anchor": "fb-830820162612_830829044812", "service": "fb", "text": "→ (I do mention that in the linked article: \"This wouldn't be so bad if people could sort themselves in the hall based on the volume they prefer, but contra doesn't let you do this.\")", "timestamp": "1481305085"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/829430382742?comment_id=830820162612&reply_comment_id=830829104692", "anchor": "fb-830820162612_830829104692", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Danner: in case you haven't run into the name, those are generally called delay fills.", "timestamp": "1481305129"}]}