{"items": [{"author": "BDan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=901928720492", "anchor": "fb-901928720492", "service": "fb", "text": "How often does PayPal just refuse to give the charity the money? They frequently stiff merchants.", "timestamp": "1506307690"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=901928720492&reply_comment_id=901931819282", "anchor": "fb-901928720492_901931819282", "service": "fb", "text": "→ All the stories I've read of PayPal holding onto people's funds have been fraud related, typically cases where PayPal's thought there was fraud when there wasn't. The risk of fraud is way lower here, since you're not using PayPal to pay a merchant who will be shipping goods, so I wouldn't expect very many false positives in fraud detection at all here.", "timestamp": "1506309187"}, {"author": "Brayden", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=901928720492&reply_comment_id=901933206502", "anchor": "fb-901928720492_901933206502", "service": "fb", "text": "→ No, PayPal was actually sued over this charity program for not paying", "timestamp": "1506310268"}, {"author": "Brayden", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=901928720492&reply_comment_id=901933261392", "anchor": "fb-901928720492_901933261392", "service": "fb", "text": "→ But I still use this product since I know the charities I support already have PayPal accounts", "timestamp": "1506310311"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=901928720492&reply_comment_id=901934608692", "anchor": "fb-901928720492_901934608692", "service": "fb", "text": "→ https://www.nytimes.com/.../paypal-giving-fund-lawsuit.html
\"Despite promises that 100 percent of donations go to the selected charities, the gifts are delivered only if the groups register accounts on both PayPal and the Giving Fund site, the lawsuit says.\"
So yes, scummy, but not applicable in the case of donating to AMF or another charity where you check first that this is a way they're happy to receive funds.", "timestamp": "1506311168"}, {"author": "Avi", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=901983795122", "anchor": "fb-901983795122", "service": "fb", "text": "It's really hard to trust a payment processing system that thinks behavior like this is acceptable: \"The company has a policy of redirecting contributions to other organizations if the intended charity does not register an account with the site, Ms. Kass said, adding that neither donors nor intended charities are informed of any switch.\" (This is from the article Jeff linked to in a comment above.)
This is consistent with other anecdotes I've heard and read.
I'd personally prefer to lose ~3% of my donations to transaction fees vs using a payment processing system that I don't feel like I can trust.", "timestamp": "1506343520"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=901983795122&reply_comment_id=901983919872", "anchor": "fb-901983795122_901983919872", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The choice isn't this or 3%, it's this or 0% since you can still send a check", "timestamp": "1506343641"}, {"author": "Avi", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=901983795122&reply_comment_id=901984658392", "anchor": "fb-901983795122_901984658392", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Even more reason not to donate via the PayPal Giving Fund. :)
Though one benefit of donating via credit card (PayPal Giving Fund or otherwise) is credit card rewards. Citi Double Cash provides 2% cash back.", "timestamp": "1506343836"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=901983795122&reply_comment_id=901985112482", "anchor": "fb-901983795122_901985112482", "service": "fb", "text": "→ 3% to credit card fees and then 2% cash back is kind of silly.
But 0% fees (this) plus 2% cash back is not silly", "timestamp": "1506344101"}, {"author": "Ben", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=901983795122&reply_comment_id=902081963392", "anchor": "fb-901983795122_902081963392", "service": "fb", "text": "→ EDIT: this is apparently no longer true:
US Bank Cash+ is 5% back on charitable contributions! (Capped at $8k/year)", "timestamp": "1506383019"}, {"author": "Avi", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=901983795122&reply_comment_id=902082771772", "anchor": "fb-901983795122_902082771772", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Ben, I got really excited about this, but it looks like donations are no longer a 5% category? http://creditcardforum.com/.../us-bank-cash-plus-card.../", "timestamp": "1506383464"}, {"author": "Ben", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=901983795122&reply_comment_id=902082851612", "anchor": "fb-901983795122_902082851612", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Oh, dang! Thanks for the correction!", "timestamp": "1506383564"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=901983795122&reply_comment_id=902183070772", "anchor": "fb-901983795122_902183070772", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"3% to credit card fees and then 2% cash back is kind of silly.\"
Actually, I think you could still come out ahead here. Let's say you want to donate to a charity such that they receive $100k, and your charity pays 2.25% transaction fees [1] on credit card donations
* check: you send $100k, they get $100k
* credit: you send $102,302, they get $100k, you get $2,062 back from your credit card
In the second case, you've spent $240 to donate via credit card, but you can deduct $2,302 more than you would have otherwise. If you pay federal taxes at the 28% rate, then this is $645 less in taxes, for a savings of $405. Even at the 15% rate, as long as you're already itemizing deductions, you still come out ahead.
Which makes me wonder if you're really allowed to deduct the full amount you paid via credit card?
[1] https://www.againstmalaria.com/TransactionFees.aspx gives 2.25% for US Visa or MasterCard credit", "timestamp": "1506437931"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=901983795122&reply_comment_id=902283195122", "anchor": "fb-901983795122_902283195122", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman If you're counting gains that small, I guess you can add another couple hundred or so for the free loan.", "timestamp": "1506477821"}, {"author": "David German", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/111229345142780712481", "anchor": "gp-1506347336277", "service": "gp", "text": "Better than writing a check, but not as good as stock with LTCG?", "timestamp": 1506347336}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1506394918718", "service": "gp", "text": "@David German\n Is donating appreciated stock actually much better? Say I invest $100k in some stock and a year later it's (a bit optimistically) $110k. My gain is $10k. If I sell it and donate the proceeds, I pay tax on the $10k growth, which would be about $2.4k (20% long term capital gains + 3.8% medicare). So the charity receives (and I deduct) $107.6k.\n
\n
\nIf instead I donate the $110k worth of stock as stock, I pay no taxes. The charity receives (and I deduct) $110k. The savings is $2.4k on $110k of stock, or 2.2%. Can you do better than that by arranging things differently, maybe optimizing for volatility or something? Because otherwise this is a lot of hassle and tax messiness when I could just donate via a 2% cash-back credit card.", "timestamp": 1506394918}, {"author": "David German", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/111229345142780712481", "anchor": "gp-1506426798479", "service": "gp", "text": "You forgot state taxes - 20% Fed LTCG + 3.8% Fed NIIT + 5.1% MA LTCG = 28.9%. \n
\n
\nMore importantly, if you're building a taxable stock portfolio throughout your working life anyway, you're likely to have capital gains that are more than one year old, and bigger than 10%. The S&P 500 has more than tripled off its 2009 low.", "timestamp": 1506426798}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1506427086308", "service": "gp", "text": "@David German\n Let's say you have a strategy of buying a lot of different stocks and donating the ones that go up the most. Does this let you do better than 2.9% overall?\n
\n
\n(I don't have stock investments currently: just 401k, HSA, and house)", "timestamp": 1506427086}, {"author": "David German", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/111229345142780712481", "anchor": "gp-1506430046225", "service": "gp", "text": "Potentially yes, with the additional benefit that you can sell the losers, and deduct the losses against ordinary income up to $3k/year. On the other hand, that increases the hassle and trading fees.\n
\n
\nA variance-harvesting strategy could be a good fit for a robo-advisor. This is triggering some deja vu - have we had this conversation before?\n
\n
\nAll of that said, I wasn't originally intending to argue for investing-for-charity. I think it doesn't make sense regardless of taxes, because the social rate of return on giving (as bounded below by the GiveDirectly studies) trounces the stock market. \n
\n
\nI was just pointing out that, for people who are investing for non-charitable reasons anyway, it's usually way better to give appreciated stock than cash on the margin.", "timestamp": 1506430046}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1506433547585", "service": "gp", "text": "@David German\n I think we've had this conversation before, yes. I'm trying to understand it better to see whether I think it's worth pushing.\n
\n
\nIt sounds like even with a roboadvisor the time delay of needing 1y before \"long term\" applies means this isn't worth it except, as you say, for people who also want to do some non-charitable investing.", "timestamp": 1506433547}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=902179223482", "anchor": "fb-902179223482", "service": "fb", "text": "Is the money Paypal is adding from their marketing budget, such that this is a pure PR move?", "timestamp": "1506435809"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=902179223482&reply_comment_id=902181154612", "anchor": "fb-902179223482_902181154612", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Does it matter what PayPal's motivation is here? I mean, if they were otherwise going to give the money to charities I thought were very valuable, regardless of my donation, then it would matter to me. But if it's PayPal spending marketing on waiving donation fees instead of funding ads that seems fine?", "timestamp": "1506436669"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=902179223482&reply_comment_id=902181838242", "anchor": "fb-902179223482_902181838242", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I distrust entities that profit from me in ways that are opaque to me.", "timestamp": "1506437183"}, {"author": "David German", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/111229345142780712481", "anchor": "gp-1506478579185", "service": "gp", "text": "\"for people who also want to do some non-charitable investing\"\n
\n
\nFWIW, I'd guess that is the majority case among people who face the 20% LTCG rate. \n
", "timestamp": 1506478579}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=914530226972", "anchor": "fb-914530226972", "service": "fb", "text": "I made a $10k payment through PayPal on 12/1, and it went through fine. I tried to make another one today, and it was rejected as fraud. I called them and asked about it, and they said that they couldn't release the block, and that if I made further attempts it might increase the length of the block.", "timestamp": "1512483921"}, {"author": "Kelsey", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=914530226972&reply_comment_id=914597611932", "anchor": "fb-914530226972_914597611932", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Are you temporarily out the money, or was it just rejected without any charge made?", "timestamp": "1512506059"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=914530226972&reply_comment_id=914598939272", "anchor": "fb-914530226972_914598939272", "service": "fb", "text": "→ It didn't even let me get to the point of choosing a funding source; I'm not out the money.", "timestamp": "1512506456"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=914530226972&reply_comment_id=915461171352", "anchor": "fb-914530226972_915461171352", "service": "fb", "text": "→ tried again today; it went through", "timestamp": "1512961512"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=914530226972&reply_comment_id=916257310882", "anchor": "fb-914530226972_916257310882", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I've found it works best to log into PayPal before trying to donate, not as part of the donation flow.
Tried again 11/13: after clicking \"donate\" it said it was logging me in, then dumped me on my account page. This happened a few times.
Tried again 11/14: same
Tried again 11/15: success!
This makes three successful donations: 12/1, 12/10, 12/15
I haven't run into the fraud message I got after the second time I tried since. Just the it pretending it doesn't know I'm trying to donate.", "timestamp": "1513341024"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=914530226972&reply_comment_id=917030122162", "anchor": "fb-914530226972_917030122162", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Just sent another $12k through, no issues this time!", "timestamp": "1513734071"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=915992401762", "anchor": "fb-915992401762", "service": "fb", "text": "It looks like they're offering an extra 1%: https://projects.promotw.com/rules/paypaldonationmatch.html
\"Make a donation using PayPal starting on Tuesday, November 28, 2017 (Giving Tuesday) through Sunday, December 31, 2017 and we\u2019ll match 1% of every donation that you make through the PayPal Giving Fund (\u201cOffer\u201d).
In order to receive this Offer you must: a) have a U.S. PayPal account in good standing, and b) complete a donation on the PayPal Giving Fund page, designating the charitable organization of your choice, using your PayPal account no later than December 31, 2017 at 11:59:59 PDT.
The following transactions are excluded from this Offer: any donation made when you are not logged into your PayPal account, including PayPal Extras MasterCard/eBay MasterCard payments not made through your PayPal account. Your donation will be made to PayPal Giving Fund, an IRS-registered 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. You will receive a donation receipt by email for your gift and thanks to PayPal\u2019s support, 101% of your donation will be granted to the nonprofit of your choice according to the PayPal Giving Fund Donation Delivery Policy.
Your contribution may be tax-deductible to the extent allowed by law. Please consult your tax advisor to understand your specific circumstances. No goods or services will be provided in exchange for your donation.
PayPal reserves the right to cancel, suspend or modify part or this entire Offer at any time without notice, for any reason in their sole discretion.\"
Am I missing something, or is this actually pretty good?", "timestamp": "1513199763"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=915992401762&reply_comment_id=915992466632", "anchor": "fb-915992401762_915992466632", "service": "fb", "text": "→ David Chudzicki", "timestamp": "1513199770"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=915992401762&reply_comment_id=915992681202", "anchor": "fb-915992401762_915992681202", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Do they still take 2.9% of the amount as their fee?", "timestamp": "1513199829"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=915992401762&reply_comment_id=915992830902", "anchor": "fb-915992401762_915992830902", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Daniel: supposedly they're taking 0% fees on all donations made via the PayPal giving fund.", "timestamp": "1513199925"}, {"author": "Jess", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=915992401762&reply_comment_id=915994432692", "anchor": "fb-915992401762_915994432692", "service": "fb", "text": "→ So you get 1-2% from credit card cash back, plus 1% from PayPal. Seems great, but I wonder what my risk is PayPal somehow holding the money hostage. 1 time out of 30 would be too much.", "timestamp": "1513200460"}, {"author": "Ross", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=917043350652", "anchor": "fb-917043350652", "service": "fb", "text": "Are donations to a DAF eligible? (I'm personally interested in Vanguard Charitable, but evidence on other DAF providers would be useful, too.)", "timestamp": "1513740434"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=917043350652&reply_comment_id=917045301742", "anchor": "fb-917043350652_917045301742", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I don't think so, but I guess https://www.paypal.com/givingfund/policies would be the place to look.", "timestamp": "1513741260"}, {"author": "Ross", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=917043350652&reply_comment_id=917045421502", "anchor": "fb-917043350652_917045421502", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I looked; looks like no.", "timestamp": "1513741370"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=970681868632", "anchor": "fb-970681868632", "service": "fb", "text": "This is available again this year. Just did a $17,900 donation, which went through fine. The main thing is you need to log into PayPal and do 2fa before clicking \"donate\" on the PayPal Giving Fund site.", "timestamp": "1543862052"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/901928356222?comment_id=970681868632&reply_comment_id=970929791792", "anchor": "fb-970681868632_970929791792", "service": "fb", "text": "→ And $17,800 today with no issues.", "timestamp": "1544018610"}]}