{"items": [{"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/690213674142?comment_id=690216124232", "anchor": "fb-690216124232", "service": "fb", "text": "In that specific case, the only real options are:

1) Ban recording and photographs
2) Say that being in the dance hall constitutes implied consent to be photographed and videotaped
2a) Same as above but clarify whether people are allowed to opt out
3) Have a policy, whatever it is, and don't enforce it
3a) Have a policy, whatever it is, and only enforce it when people complain", "timestamp": "1412181387"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/690213674142?comment_id=690216174132", "anchor": "fb-690216174132", "service": "fb", "text": "I think there's possibly some signaling value to having a no-photos-without-consent policy that you don't enforce, inasmuch as it might make people think before they click. Maybe?", "timestamp": "1412181421"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/690213674142?comment_id=690216278922", "anchor": "fb-690216278922", "service": "fb", "text": "@Hollis: Though it also means that people who like to respect the organizers' rules aren't going to take photos/vidoes.", "timestamp": "1412181465"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/690213674142?comment_id=690216408662", "anchor": "fb-690216408662", "service": "fb", "text": "When contra photos/videos are outlawed, only outlaws will have contra photos/videos?", "timestamp": "1412181520"}, {"author": "Sarah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/690213674142?comment_id=690216882712", "anchor": "fb-690216882712", "service": "fb", "text": "Our dance sometimes has a No Video Line when we know videos and photos will be taken and dancers have expressed a desire to not participate. (A quick hand-raise poll at the beginning of the evening can determine if a separate line is needed.) People who don't want to be photographed can safely dance on that side of the room. It eliminates full room shots, but seems to be a fairly painless compromise.", "timestamp": "1412181808"}, {"author": "Alex", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/690213674142?comment_id=690216907662", "anchor": "fb-690216907662", "service": "fb", "text": "What we did at YDW was make clear that if anyone didn't wish to be in recordings for any reason they should talk to a committee member and we'd get them a sticker to put on their nametag. We also encouraged communication between those people and people taking pictures. The goal was to make it clear that such desires are respected without question. The stickers were a way to make it easier to select recordings or pictures that included people with stickers and omit those from online posting.

I believe no one actually got stickers, which is not terribly surprising, because most people are okay with having recordings of themselves online, especially in the \"look at this fun dance experience\" context.

Jeff, I feel like your abstention from taking pictures or recordings that everyone (including you) would have enjoyed was more a passive aggressive protest against the issue than anything else. We communicated extensively with you about this beforehand, and I felt we were clear that we DO want recordings to be made, we just also want to respect the non-consent of people who don't want to be in them (even if those people may not have been at this particular weekend).

However, this is a tricky issue, and I appreciate the discourse about it. I just feel like you've taken a rather blunt hammer approach to the whole thing, and I wish you would respect the nuance that the YDW was trying to bring to it.", "timestamp": "1412181817"}, {"author": "Logan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/690213674142?comment_id=690216972532", "anchor": "fb-690216972532", "service": "fb", "text": "In addition, because video includes audio, you have to get consent from both (or all) parties to record that. Even if they're not in the visual part of the video, it's required in MA (and about a dozen other states I think).

This is quite a sticky issue. I really don't think there's an easy way to deal with it.", "timestamp": "1412181858"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/690213674142?comment_id=690218239992", "anchor": "fb-690218239992", "service": "fb", "text": "Logan, I'm not sure what you mean by this. The band and caller could pretty easily be consulted, because there are only a few of them. Are we concerned that a few incidental dancer noises might be captured? This seems fundamentally different from a photo or video in which an individual person might actually be recognizable.

I wanted to echo Alex's comment that YDW did point this out to the whole hall at one point, and offer no-photo stickers to anyone who did not want to be photographed. Jeff, maybe you were just not in the hall at this point? As a band member rather than a dancer, you may not have been a part of all of these discussions. I don't think anyone ever asked for a sticker, which means everyone implicitly agreed to being photographed/recorded.

Also, how does this apply outside of dance communities? Public spaces are photographed all the time, and the people in them are rarely consulted for permission. Generally speaking, I don't think most people with cameras are out to violate rights, or would have a problem photographing different people, or at a different time, if anyone spoke up to them about it. But, it is just prohibitively difficult to consult each individual for consent in a large, public place or event.

In a dance weekend, we could ask for consent when people sign up. But many other places, where no one signs up in the first place, can't deal with it in this way. Generally, people just photograph anyway, and our country as a whole seems to be mostly okay with this.", "timestamp": "1412182632"}, {"author": "Wayne", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/690213674142?comment_id=690220510442", "anchor": "fb-690220510442", "service": "fb", "text": "", "timestamp": "1412184139"}, {"author": "Logan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/690213674142?comment_id=690222681092", "anchor": "fb-690222681092", "service": "fb", "text": "Daniel: I'm just considering it from a legal perspective. While I highly doubt it would be an issue, especially at an event like YDW, it is a consideration.

Public spaces don't include a reasonable expectation of privacy, so pictures and video are OK. I think part of the reason that America doesn't care about it is 1. we're in public and 2. it's very difficult to find people who take the photos. I could go out onto Boston Common right now and find a handful of people taking pictures, even in the rain. On a sunny day? I'd never know. That is the \"risk\" we take by going out into public.

Your idea of asking for consent at private events makes a lot of sense. Having a list of \"private persons\" that is provided to photographers could be useful when they are curating and uploading photos could be very useful.", "timestamp": "1412185257"}, {"author": "Sarah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/690213674142?comment_id=690223165122", "anchor": "fb-690223165122", "service": "fb", "text": "I like the idea of explicitly stating in our code of conduct that presence in the dance hall implies consent to being recorded unless you have specifically opted out via a sticker or what-have-you. I think we could even get a verbal affirmation during check-in, though I know there is incentive to make the check-in process as streamlined/simple as possible and adding a consent step might be burdensome.", "timestamp": "1412185511"}, {"author": "Logan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/690213674142?comment_id=690223694062", "anchor": "fb-690223694062", "service": "fb", "text": "Sarah, I bet you could set up the legal part in the registration process, and then just verbally confirm it when they arrive. A simple sticker on the nametag would do, as Alex mentioned. That shouldn't add much to the check-in process.", "timestamp": "1412185773"}, {"author": "Ryan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/690213674142?comment_id=690225161122", "anchor": "fb-690225161122", "service": "fb", "text": "As a photographer, I felt that the committee dealt with the issue of consent very well with the group announcement, although the wording of the written policy was confusing at best. Although I was not approached by anyone asking not to be photographed this weekend, it has happened before and I don't think it' difficult to handle that way. Sarah, I like your idea of having an explicit, written opt-out policy. That would formalize what worked well this weekend.", "timestamp": "1412186603"}, {"author": "Kitty", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/690213674142?comment_id=690228858712", "anchor": "fb-690228858712", "service": "fb", "text": "i've always thought of a dance hall as a public place, and i've never expected to have to give my permission for photos or videos.", "timestamp": "1412188645"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/690213674142?comment_id=690235635132", "anchor": "fb-690235635132", "service": "fb", "text": "@Alex: \"We communicated extensively with you about this beforehand, and I felt we were clear that we DO want recordings to be made, we just also want to respect the non-consent of people who don't want to be in them\"

While I did talk about this over email with the organizers before the dance, the most clarity I got was your writing \"If you take a bunch and only use ones that don't have any people with stickers in them, it might work okay.\" But as I wrote to you before the weekend, if you take a video the stickers are small enough that you can't look back and see which people have them, while if you take a picture the nametag might not be visible at the time.

In general, though, this post isn't about just YDW (or Oberlin, or YTS). It's about trying to figure out a policy that fits our community better than \"you must have consent before taking video/pictures of someone\".", "timestamp": "1412191539"}, {"author": "Ethan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/690213674142?comment_id=690236892612", "anchor": "fb-690236892612", "service": "fb", "text": "There is another element of (video) recording policies that I think is important to add to the discussion and that is permission of the performers. In Elixir, we have language in our contract rider that reads:

\"We require that anyone making video or audio recordings of our performances request our permission before doing so. In most cases we will grant permission for recordings made for personal use (e.g. musicians learning tunes, callers learning dances, etc.). If a recording of our performance is to be distributed in any form and for any purpose - such as posting online, sending via email, sharing or duplicating via physical media - we request the opportunity to view/listen to the recording before it is distributed and we reserve the right to grant or deny permission for that distribution for any reason.\"

I think people often forget that performers retain legal rights over recordings of their performances, even if recordings are made in a public place. In some cases there are further legal complications if the song being performed is itself copyrighted (although it's very unlikely that posting something would actually attract the attention of ASCAP/BMI/etc.)

In general, I think it is very important that performers have the opportunity to give consent and to approve a recording before it is shared publicly.

Furthermore, I think discouraging recording in general is a good thing; we are all too tempted by the technology in our pockets to become documentarians of our lives, rather than active participants. Let's record and share memories the old-fashioned way, with eyes, ears, brains, and good stories.", "timestamp": "1412192326"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/690213674142?comment_id=690237271852", "anchor": "fb-690237271852", "service": "fb", "text": "@Wayne: \"Is there an ethical, legal, or pragmatic reason to have an opt in rather than an opt out policy?\"

In the case of YDW there was an opt-out policy, in the form of stickers you could put on your nametag to indicate you wanted people to check with you before taking pictures/videos. YTS didn't have this policy the year I went, and Oberlin I don't know.", "timestamp": "1412192523"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/690213674142?comment_id=690238579232", "anchor": "fb-690238579232", "service": "fb", "text": "^^^^^^ Ethan speaks my mind. There are legal aspects of recording music that we should consider, and it's just polite to ask the working professionals in the room for a go-ahead.", "timestamp": "1412193426"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/690213674142?comment_id=690240330722", "anchor": "fb-690240330722", "service": "fb", "text": "Legal aspects of recording music are an issue, but since there are generally only a few musicians playing at any given dance, it is relatively easy to request permission from the performers. Ask, and if they say yes, go ahead. If they say no, stop. This is sometimes forgotten, but it is an easily surmountable challenge for recording dances.

The question of photographing and/or recording dancers is of an entirely different kind, because there can be hundreds, or even sometimes thousands, of dancers in a given hall. For a photographer to ask each one individually would be near-impossible for large dances, so a different approach is needed.

We were lucky at YDW in that everyone chose to be part of photos, when given the option. We were able to explicitly address the issue that people should be able to opt out of photographs, and yet still take photos of anyone and everyone at the dance. How would we have reacted, though, if a single person out of 150 or so said they didn't want to be in pictures, and as a result we had not been able to do any full-hall photos at all? Would people in general have been okay with that result? Would that person have faced any animosity over it (especially if easily identified by a sticker)?

(Edited for silly punctuation error, not content.)", "timestamp": "1412194371"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/690213674142?comment_id=690262715862", "anchor": "fb-690262715862", "service": "fb", "text": "Also, although it's barely germane, there was an explicit request from the mic to record the epic medly, right before it started, so there was a bit of notice for the particular recording you cite.", "timestamp": "1412205396"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1412206263"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/690213674142?comment_id=690265230822", "anchor": "fb-690265230822", "service": "fb", "text": "@Wang: I've added your user id to the list of ones not to mirror.", "timestamp": "1412206601"}]}