{"items": [{"author": "Victor", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337615319672124", "anchor": "fb-337615319672124", "service": "fb", "text": "I agree with your description and think it would work well for gender-free dancing as well. I do not understand why some people get very upset about the terms leader and follower.", "timestamp": "1363189270"}, {"author": "Molly", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337657766334546", "anchor": "fb-337657766334546", "service": "fb", "text": "Thanks for writing this! It's a thing that's been percolating in my mind for a little while. One contribution I would make is that when dancing with a new dancer, I enjoy dancing the gent's role more than the lady's, both because it's more fun for me and also because as a leader I feel like it's easier for me to be a teacher.", "timestamp": "1363191411"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337695496330773", "anchor": "fb-337695496330773", "service": "fb", "text": "The reason why I don't like it is because contra dance really isn't a lead/follow dance the way couples dance is. There might be a few moves where one leads, but in contra dance the ladies have more power over their movements than they might in couples dancing. It implies that there is no way that a person playing the ladies' role could ever be a teacher or a leader, and that's just not true. I feel that both roles have an equal amount leading and equal amount following, in general, and in most cases the best moves are where both are putting the same into a movement as one - which is the true essence of contra dancing I believe. Many times I've danced the ladies' role with a beginner gent and I'm almost always leading the figures. Now if you're talking about the addition of swing moves into contra that might be a different story, but as a community form of a dance, the roles being termed as lead/follow I think are misleading.", "timestamp": "1363193076"}, {"author": "Victor", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337698032997186", "anchor": "fb-337698032997186", "service": "fb", "text": "Perhaps \"guide\" is better than lead. Perry-it's not just the swing moves. Think courtesy turn, for example. Also, bringing up the situation of guiding a beginner is not particularly relevent.", "timestamp": "1363193474"}, {"author": "Dvor\u00e1", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337698646330458", "anchor": "fb-337698646330458", "service": "fb", "text": "One big difference I've seen is that for some people 'initiating' means offering a relatively subtle invitation that can be easily declined, and for others it means pushing the other person into the flourish/variation in question, or at least glaring at them when they decline.", "timestamp": "1363193604"}, {"author": "Dvor\u00e1", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337704536329869", "anchor": "fb-337704536329869", "service": "fb", "text": "Also, in my experience, some people dance as if the 'lead' is the primary person who sets the speed & energy level of a swing. If you're like me and are used to a more symmetrical give-and-take in the setting of energy level, dancing with somebody who has a more asymmetrical approach is really disconcerting (if I'm the 'lead', I tend to take the partner's failure to put much energy in as a signal that they're looking for something not-too-energetic, instead of a signal that they're waiting for me to take the initiative, and as a 'follow' i tend to get glares for having too strong of an opinion).", "timestamp": "1363193797"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337711336329189", "anchor": "fb-337711336329189", "service": "fb", "text": "@Benjamin: \"if I'm the 'lead', I tend to take the partner's failure to put much energy in as a signal that they're looking for something not-too-energetic, instead of a signal that they're waiting for me to take the initiative, and as a 'follow' i tend to get glares for having too strong of an opinion\"

I think this is a good example of how the two approaches (symmetry and lead/follow) often don't combine well.", "timestamp": "1363193998"}, {"author": "Dvor\u00e1", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337713629662293", "anchor": "fb-337713629662293", "service": "fb", "text": "Yeah, which is why the hostility to lead/follow from some of us. (Also, it's an example of a thing that wasn't on your list.)", "timestamp": "1363194065"}, {"author": "Dvor\u00e1", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337715072995482", "anchor": "fb-337715072995482", "service": "fb", "text": "More generally, if lead and follow only meant what your post describes, I think there'd be a lot fewer objections.", "timestamp": "1363194107"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337715856328737", "anchor": "fb-337715856328737", "service": "fb", "text": "Victor - yes, and I acknowledged but there are some moves that lend to \"leading\" and \"following\", but there are many moves where the women lead and the men follow. I took a workshop called \"Women in Charge Contras\" at NEFFA last year that demonstrated that quite effectively. There was a dance where there was a R&L thru with the men on the right, but otherwise the move was as usually done. There are frequent men's chains, where the women lead the courtesy turn. If you ever do the dance \"Coal Country Contra\", there is a move where the men roll away the lady, and then the men do-si-do. It's a great move, especially when the woman can lead the gent into the center for their DSD.", "timestamp": "1363194332"}, {"author": "Victor", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337716996328623", "anchor": "fb-337716996328623", "service": "fb", "text": "Perry, you live in a different planet than I do. I contra dance about twice a week and haven't done a men's chain in about 2 months, certainly not fitting your description of that move as frequent. I cannot fathom why you choose to view the exception(beginner, men's chain, backwards R&L thru) as the rule.", "timestamp": "1363194782"}, {"author": "Dvor\u00e1", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337717296328593", "anchor": "fb-337717296328593", "service": "fb", "text": "I think another part of my unease with the lead/follow approach to swing energy is that it just seems more obnoxious. Either it ends up with the lead basically dictating things and only adjusting if there's a clear 'not okay' signal from the follow (and so mostly ignoring the follows desires), or it deteriorates into a kind of obnoxious guessing game. Negotiations work better when both parties communicate about what they want.", "timestamp": "1363194888"}, {"author": "Matthew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337718106328512", "anchor": "fb-337718106328512", "service": "fb", "text": "\"When to end the swing seems to be true for me as well\", but I think I tend to add twirls/variations/substitutions from both positions. When leading, I certainly appreciate my partner doing the same, especially if we end up with a back-and-forth dynamic of each adding things in collaboratively.", "timestamp": "1363195118"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337731412993848", "anchor": "fb-337731412993848", "service": "fb", "text": "Victor - I say that to demonstrate that contra is not strictly a men/lead-woman/follow dance.", "timestamp": "1363196798"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337758936324429", "anchor": "fb-337758936324429", "service": "fb", "text": "@Perry: \"demonstrate that contra is not strictly a men/lead-woman/follow dance\"

Even in dance forms that are formally lead/follow there are exceptions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_and_follow#Hijacking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_and_follow#Backleading", "timestamp": "1363199276"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337760176324305", "anchor": "fb-337760176324305", "service": "fb", "text": "Yeah - but backleading is considered bad dance form in those dances, no? In contra, there is no such thing as \"backleading\".", "timestamp": "1363199586"}, {"author": "Victor", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337760582990931", "anchor": "fb-337760582990931", "service": "fb", "text": "As a substitute for lead/follow, how about guide/decide. Reasonably accurate and easy to tell apart.", "timestamp": "1363199692"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337760946324228", "anchor": "fb-337760946324228", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm curious - is the ONLY reason to replace man/woman or gent/lady with something else the desire to avoid gendered terminology in contra dancing, or is there something else that I'm missing?", "timestamp": "1363199813"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337762522990737", "anchor": "fb-337762522990737", "service": "fb", "text": "@Perry: \"backleading is considered bad dance form in those dances\"

It depends. I think it's pretty standard and seen as helpful for follows to use backleading some with new leads as a teaching tool. This has a similar usage in contra: when I'm dancing as a lady with someone new to dancing the gent and they want to learn how to lead a twirl I might backlead it to show them.

\"In contra, there is no such thing as 'backleading'\"

The negative sense of backleading also applies in contra, among people who see it as a lead/follow dance. If I'm dancing as the lady and want to do a twirl but I don't think the gent is likely to initiate one, I can briefly take the lead from the lady's role (hijacking) and lead a twirl for myself, which is fun, playful, and good in moderation. But if instead I just act as if the gent had led a twirl, that would be backleading and isn't good dancing.", "timestamp": "1363200101"}, {"author": "Dvor\u00e1", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337762699657386", "anchor": "fb-337762699657386", "service": "fb", "text": "Perry, I've definitely been accused of 'backleading' at contras, so I think it may be controversial whether there is such a thing.", "timestamp": "1363200173"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337770219656634", "anchor": "fb-337770219656634", "service": "fb", "text": "@Perry: \"is the ONLY reason to replace man/woman or gent/lady with something else the desire to avoid gendered terminology in contra dancing, or is there something else that I'm missing?\"

That's the main one. To avoid gendered terminology and its alleged negative effects. (I say \"alleged\" because I honestly don't know whether if we could magically switch it so all dance communities used port/starboard that would be positive. I think it would be, but the main evidence is from people liking queer contras which differ in a bunch of ways.)", "timestamp": "1363200729"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337785759655080", "anchor": "fb-337785759655080", "service": "fb", "text": "OK, understood.", "timestamp": "1363201327"}, {"author": "Eileen", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337794709654185", "anchor": "fb-337794709654185", "service": "fb", "text": "When I dance as a lady, I frequently initiate flourishes for my partner. Men dancing as gents who receive these leads frequently (a) are surprised and thank me, (b) are surprised and not sure what to do, or (c) enjoy receiving leads from me on a regular basis. (Women who receive these leads tend to fall into category (c).)

Backleading, in my world, is closer to a person initiating a twirl for themselves, without feeling a sense of connection with their partner. Some men, after I lead them in a twirl, will initiate twirls of their own in this way, which I dislike -- not that they want to twirl, but that they do so without connection.

I dislike gendered terms in contra because they reinforce gender roles and heteronormatism. I also dislike lead/follow terms in contra and any other dance form because I personally support mutual leading and following, where either partner is prepared to contribute direction and also listen and respond. (This is not to say that both partners must do both all the time -- sometimes it's nice to slide more to one end of the spectrum than the other for a little while.)

I see dancing roles as a small microcosm of gender roles in society. Even though lead/follow seems gender neutral, we all know that the lead is the traditionally \"male\" role and the follow is the traditionally \"female\" role. So, I honestly see lead/follow as a step in the right direction, but not breaking free of the gender box thoroughly enough: that frame still maintains the idea that one person should be leading and other person should be following, rather than that our experience together should grow out of mutual respect, contributions, and listening.

Jeff, I think I don't actually know you, but I do know several people on this thread, which seems to be why I have access to it! I disagree with your assessment that dancing gender roles in contra are currently growing farther apart: That may have been true in the past, but at least here in the Triangle (North Carolina), we have a core of young dancers who enjoy mutuality in their flourishes, and I see that number growing.", "timestamp": "1363203470"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337807756319547", "anchor": "fb-337807756319547", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff & Eileen - you both are correct on backleading in contra, I stand corrected. Eileen - if you say to dancers that \"gent\" and \"lady\" in the world of contra doesn't denote real physical gender but rather titles of dance roles where anyone can play them, is that, in your opinion, still heteronormative?", "timestamp": "1363204165"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337814259652230", "anchor": "fb-337814259652230", "service": "fb", "text": "@Perry: You can say \"anyone can play them\" but the names for the roles indicate otherwise and steer men into the gent's role and women into the lady's, which is heteronormative.", "timestamp": "1363205473"}, {"author": "Eileen", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337814579652198", "anchor": "fb-337814579652198", "service": "fb", "text": "I don't think the specifics of how I view backleading is typical, however, Perry... It was only in writing the comment above that I realized that I would apply that label to people who lead their own flourishes in a way that is unconnected to their partner. I think other people would generally apply it to follows who exert a strong lead in the dance partnership, whether by leading their own flourishes or flourishes for their partner. Occasionally I do receive slightly negative reactions when I give someone a lead (\"Who's leading here?\"), but I am comfortable and confident in my position.

I agree with Jeff on the heteronormativity: As a caller I use \"gent\" and \"lady\", although when I teach the lesson I am clear to identify that dancing gender identity does not need to correspond to real-world gender identity, and in the lesson I always have people ask someone to dance, do some things together as a couple, and then decide who will dance as a lady and as a gent. However, I believe that these role names remain heteronormative and that they continue to reinforce gender roles; I dislike them for that reason. The words reinforce the idea that one \"should\" dance with someone of the opposite gender identity, that it's the exception to dance with someone of the same gender identity or in swapped dancing roles... In so doing, they bring the dance floor back to a heteronormative and traditional gender role lens. They also reinforce the idea that who you dance with should have something to do with who you are romantically interested in, rather than simple be people who are fun to share dance energy with.", "timestamp": "1363205585"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337819636318359", "anchor": "fb-337819636318359", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm not sure that it reinforces that notion all that much, especially if we emphasize right up front that they are only titles of dance roles and not real world genders. I'm not entirely positive that people prefer to dance in these roles because that's what we call them - I just think that people dance in these roles because that is their preference. Heteronormative is still the rule in many dances and I think that will remain no matter what you call them. Now I'm not saying heteronormative is good. As a matter of fact, I remember on a recent discussion thread, someone was talking about how to promote contra dancing to people, and another person threw out the \"new woman thrown into your arms every 30 seconds\", and I pointed out that sometimes a guy will be thrown into your arms and we might want to tell them that too. And then I got someone telling me \"most people are heterosexual and want to dance with people of the opposite sex\". So I'm not pro-heteronormative. But could it be that are ascribing too much power to words? (Then again, I could say that about my objection to lead/follow - so I recognize that.) I'm just thinking that if we say that these are only titles and you don't have to be what the title says you are - does keep a bit of tradition in what is by and large still a traditional dance form while still adhering to more modern standards. And I also recognize that people STILL have a strong preference to dancing with someone of the opposite gender, and I believe they will continue to do so even if you change the names of the roles. Some people simply are uncomfortable dancing a non-traditional role - which is why we continue to have stupid gender balancing rules at dance weekends.", "timestamp": "1363206698"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337820022984987", "anchor": "fb-337820022984987", "service": "fb", "text": "Though it would be a fun experiment to see if changing the names to something non-gendered to a dance of beginners would change with whom they dance with. My views are only an opinion, but I'm also willing to admit that I might be wrong.", "timestamp": "1363206774"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337821086318214", "anchor": "fb-337821086318214", "service": "fb", "text": "@Eileen: \"I disagree with your assessment that dancing gender roles in contra are currently growing farther apart: That may have been true in the past, but at least here in the Triangle (North Carolina), we have a core of young dancers who enjoy mutuality in their flourishes, and I see that number growing\"

My experience is that there's an older style that isn't lead/follow and a newer style that is. People who think of contra dance in the older style will say things like:

\"We both know the pattern and where we're going - what's to lead? I lead & follow in other types of dance, and Contra does not feel like that at all.\"

More on this: http://www.jefftk.com/news/2012-05-11

In the Boston area and I think also in the Triangle area the lead/follow style has grown enough that it's what most people are doing, but in other places it's still growing. Which is why I describe the roles as moving farther apart: in the older style the two people move equally while in the newer style there are all these flourishes and variations mostly initiated by the gent.

I see mutuality in flourishes as falling within this newer lead/follow dynamic and extending it so that it's bidirectional but not fully symmetric. As I've danced it and seen it danced, even with experienced dancers who are trading off flourishes still the majority are initiated from the gent's role. And when someone wants to do more leading or lead something complicated they often switch to the gent's role first. Is this what you've seen too?

\"which seems to be why I have access to it\"

You have access to it because it's set to be public ;)", "timestamp": "1363206971"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337826636317659", "anchor": "fb-337826636317659", "service": "fb", "text": "Anyways - I'm with Eileen that both roles can and do initiate flourishes and both can and do lead AND follow dance moves, for the most part, and that if you're looking to go non-heteronormative, lead/follow isn't the way to do it.", "timestamp": "1363207636"}, {"author": "Eileen", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337826806317642", "anchor": "fb-337826806317642", "service": "fb", "text": "Perry, I think people have those preferences because they have been culturally conditioned to do so, not because there is something inherent that connects dancing with sex. I mean, yes, I would like to dance with a romantic partner, but most of the time our experience on the dance floor has very little to do with romance, even if people are flirting. (I'm not romantically interested in nearly anyone I dance with, regardless of their gender or my sexual orientation.) Part of that cultural conditioning is language. \"Small\" things we don't pay attention to, like language, can strongly influence how we think. My understanding is that in the right setting changing the names of dance roles can do away with the genderedness of dance pairings. However, in at least one gender-free dance I've called, people plaintively asked, \"Which role is the man's?!\" In this case, they hadn't internalized which role label applied to themselves, so they had trouble recognizing whether I was talking to them; gender was an easy way for them to label themselves.", "timestamp": "1363207686"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337828506317472", "anchor": "fb-337828506317472", "service": "fb", "text": "I hear you - and for the most part I agree with you. I have to tell you - one of the thing that kind of bothers me is that some dances like to bring a bunch of old ties to the dances, to indicate that if you are a woman dancing a man's role, you put on a tie so as not to confuse people, because ties apparently are manly. I'd like to reinforce the \"dance with who's comin' atcha\" notion - that don't worry if people are positioned \"wrong\", just dance and go with it. The ties do reinforce that the person on the left is the \"man\". Now I'm a man, but you're more likely to see me in a skirt than a tie, so there ya go. And you just demonstrated the problem - even if we change the names people are still likely to translate that to man/woman just like an English speaker is likely to translate Spanish back to English in order to get an understanding. It's an acquired skill to think in Spanish if you're a native English-speaker. I suggest it's the same in dance roles.", "timestamp": "1363208034"}, {"author": "Eileen", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337832006317122", "anchor": "fb-337832006317122", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, yes, I realize that historically contra did not include much in the way of flourishes, and that as flourishes entered contra they did so through a male-lead/female-follow construct. Yes, mutual leading/following obviously involves leading and following, just not lead and follow dance roles.

In my personal experience, I used to be much more interested in swapping dancing roles with men; as I became a more confident lead, that became less salient for me. I personally am happy leading complicated figures from either role (including, for example, as a lady leading flourishes for my partner during a courtesy turn, although I only do so with partners who are prepared to follow something like that). I frequently dance as a lady with men who are not comfortable leads and provide most of the leading between us. They are typically excited about it. However, yes, the \"gent-lead\" / \"lady-follow\" paradigm is of course quite common, with the person dancing the gent's role, regardless of gender identity, doing most of the leading.

But, I see mutuality as a growing trend and the future of how flourishes will be part of contra (and hopefully other dance forms as well). Therefore, I see the entry of flourishes into contra as, indeed, a divergence in dance roles, but I think they are now at the beginning of growing closer together again rather than farther apart. I suspect that the asymmetry you describe will gradually close, but labels like \"lead\" and \"follow\" may hinder that change. I find them prescriptive labels rather than descriptive ones, and I don't think it's helpful to have dance role labels that encourage people to mentally constrain what they should and should not do.", "timestamp": "1363209176"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337833972983592", "anchor": "fb-337833972983592", "service": "fb", "text": "@Eileen: you're writing as if we have a major disagreement of some kind but in fact I agree with everything you've said except for how far along this path we currently are.", "timestamp": "1363209837"}, {"author": "Eileen", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337862352980754", "anchor": "fb-337862352980754", "service": "fb", "text": "That's great. I apologize if I projected onto you! In fact, I think I began writing more towards Victor's comment about not understanding why people do not like the terms \"leader\" and \"follower\"; these are my reasons.

Also, I know I am someone who is intentionally pushing that path... so my experience is skewed because (a) I am always part of any dance I'm in and (b) locally there's a small collection of dancers who tell me that I specifically have opened them up to more mutual dancing. That isn't to say that I completely escape those more traditional roles...", "timestamp": "1363211309"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337866189647037", "anchor": "fb-337866189647037", "service": "fb", "text": "This has been very enlightening. I have learned a lot and also I just love talking contra and the issues surrounding it.", "timestamp": "1363211520"}, {"author": "Stuart", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337932199640436", "anchor": "fb-337932199640436", "service": "fb", "text": "They do not know what they mean; for contradance is not social partner dance where there are definite roles within a couple. The majority of what are called contradancers do not, as do the general public, have knowledge of social couple ballroom dance. True, there is - or should be - connection in contradance. I take initiative to style and exicute the dance differently as influenced by who it is I am dancing with, thus, the back and forth of lead and follow.", "timestamp": "1363232162"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337954699638186", "anchor": "fb-337954699638186", "service": "fb", "text": "Eileen & Jeff, re the prediction \"growing closer together again rather than farther apart\" -- we'll have to see what happens, but personally I predict and prefer that contra continues the divergence of the roles into lead/follow. You've both seen much more contra dance history than I, though -- I'm curious how sure you are that the roles are (or will be) trending back toward symmetry?", "timestamp": "1363240719"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337955139638142", "anchor": "fb-337955139638142", "service": "fb", "text": "To explain my personal preference about \"leading complicated figures from either role\": Leading and following both take different kinds of listening, and I like focusing on one or the other (along with the other aspects of leading or following) and not both at the same time. I also have reasons that are similar to why I like having different roles in dances that are more traditionally lead/follow.", "timestamp": "1363240931"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/337562163010773?comment_id=337955396304783", "anchor": "fb-337955396304783", "service": "fb", "text": "... but it's always possible for the person following to briefly lead! I really liked when one dancer in Chicago would switch hand position in the middle of a swing because she wanted to lead a variation. That hand position signal (\"start listening like a follow now!\") is very valuable to me. I have friends who like dancing waltz or other traditionally/lead follow dances like this as well, where lead can change briefly.", "timestamp": "1363241061"}, {"author": "Lex", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/111102660583646544610", "anchor": "gp-1363272847505", "service": "gp", "text": "I will add that I actually like that contra dance supports the usual gender roles. That is, the dance itself takes the follow role, while the larger society takes the lead.\n
\n
\nMore generally, a dance gives people a space to play with their interactions with people of the same and the opposite gender. The nature of any form of play is that it is a precursor to encounters in real life that will occur later. As such, the play that people want to participate in tends to be somewhat close to what they expect to be dealing with in a later non-play environment.\n
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\nOne thing I will say is that contra dancing makes it harder than some forms to break out and experiment with role swapping. The trouble is that a guy dancing the follow role will end up dancing with a LOT of guys. Moreover, those guys will have little experience in dancing with other guys, so it tends to be one ugly encounter after another, all the way up the line. All this adds up to mean you have to make a larger bundle of changes all at once.", "timestamp": 1363272847}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/117732328885787456164", "anchor": "gp-1363285398504", "service": "gp", "text": "@Lex\n : \"The trouble is that a guy dancing the follow role will end up dancing with a LOT of guys. Moreover, those guys will have little experience in dancing with other guys, so it tends to be one ugly encounter after another, all the way up the line.\"\n
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\nThis varies greatly between dance communities. At the two places that I most regularly dance (apart from my \"home\" dance, which is gender-free), namely BIDA in Cambridge and the Scout House in Concord, MA, the regular guys have gotten pretty used to dancing with other guys, and I find that \"ugly encounters\" are rare and getting rarer. (I'm assuming that the guys who try to make me twirl on every courtesy turn do the same thing to women.) This may be less true in other regions, but these are places where I think it would be a good idea to \nencourage\n dancers that are so inclined to role-swap, which will help educate the others.", "timestamp": 1363285398}]}