{"items": [{"author": "Cory", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122467674564081", "anchor": "fb-122467674564081", "service": "fb", "text": "hmm, so obviously I can't speak for the men, but it seems to me that your friend is wrong. Sure, there are certain men who come to \"dance with women\" but the majority of them seem to be there for the same reason that I'm there. I come to dance; but I also come to dance with people I like dancing with, most, but not all, of whom happen to be men. I also will dance with almost anyone who asks me, not unhappily for sure, but maybe not with quite the same enthusiasm as I might with someone of my choosing. So the idea that men asking women allows for both parties to \"win\" seems a little absurd to me. Now who knows, I could be totally wrong on the male perspective, but it seems to be that most of the guys I know have a similar view. Many of them are also willing to dance with other men, if the gender balance is off, even though many of them would prefer to dance with a woman (or perhaps with certain women, I don't know, but some guys might prefer to dance with some other men than some women, but prefer to dance with a certain woman over those guys...) so that shows that they are there mainly for the dancing. There are often men who won't dance with other men, on average, these men are older, which makes me think it has more to do with what our society has ingrained in men than the fact that those men are only there for women, not for dancing.", "timestamp": "1343134254"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122467804564068", "anchor": "fb-122467804564068", "service": "fb", "text": "This vastly simplifies the dynamic. I started dancing because I was dragged, and then found a couple of things I found fun. That said, I \"knew\" that more women liked to dance than men, I was shy, and figured it would help with finding women. I, in fact, met my wife at MIT folk dance and our first date was a contra. I love dancing, but I a large part of that is I enjoy dancing with women. A women once said to me\" contra dancing is where you can be in love for 10 minutes\" That reflects my strong preference. There is, however, this feeling something like flight (weightless, defying gravity, etc.) that is a strong part of the joy. That is something I can get from dancing with either sex, and sometimes better with men (they have more strength, mass and athleticism). I think for most people there is a mix of sexual tension (think g rated here), and joy from movement that varies from person to person. I would observe to your friend, that many males have that balance tilted toward the I'm interested in women side, but it is a tilt, not nearly an absolute. As someone who is tilted that way, one of the biggest delights of an evening is when any woman asks me to dance.", "timestamp": "1343134281"}, {"author": "Sasha", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122468471230668", "anchor": "fb-122468471230668", "service": "fb", "text": "I dance salsa, so I don't know how similiar the scene is. My sense there is that the non-dancers mainly keep to themselves and don\u2019t interact with dancers, so men don\u2019t go \u2018for the women\u2019 per se. That said, men seem more likely to ask more attractive women to dance as they start out, becoming more interested in women\u2019s skill as they improve \u2013 when you\u2019re a fairly confident leader, it\u2019s a real pain to be with someone who constantly fails to respond to your signals, whereas when your signals are still frequently muddled the dance isn\u2019t going to me much better with a good or bad follower.
Suspect also beyond a certain point some men go back to seeking the more attractive women, since they become so good at leading they can generally compensate for poor following. I\u2019ve never reached that level though\u2026", "timestamp": "1343134372"}, {"author": "Adam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122469727897209", "anchor": "fb-122469727897209", "service": "fb", "text": "I think the 'going back to seeking attractive women' thing is probably more to do with a few guys who only ever dance with attractive women... :P", "timestamp": "1343134510"}, {"author": "Ofer", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122471711230344", "anchor": "fb-122471711230344", "service": "fb", "text": "\"beyond a certain point\", I started noticing which women in the line seemed to be having the most fun and doing the best contra swing, and remembering to find them afterward to ask them to dance. You briefly try out lots of partners in each dance, so it makes it easy to notice who I'd most enjoy dancing with.
Other times, I try to find someone who's completely new, and I think it would actually be useful if we had a more institutionalized way of matching up brand new dancers with moderately-to-very experienced dancers; pairs of newbies tend to sow confusion in the line and sometimes they get turned off from contra, not realizing how much better an experience they'd have if they started out not dancing together with neither of them knowing how.
(At a dance where I have a lot of friends, both of the above are overshadowed by wanting to dance with them, but I usually do some of each)", "timestamp": "1343134813"}, {"author": "TC", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122471977896984", "anchor": "fb-122471977896984", "service": "fb", "text": "If straight men leave dances and or/not dance because there are no more women, then yes, I would assume some straight men are there for the women, and not the dancing.", "timestamp": "1343134860"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122475517896630", "anchor": "fb-122475517896630", "service": "fb", "text": "I know that the only contra dance I attended, I went because my then-girlfriend asked me to. So from my anecdotal experience, \"yes.\"", "timestamp": "1343135483"}, {"author": "Martha", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122478191229696", "anchor": "fb-122478191229696", "service": "fb", "text": "It also goes without saying that some women go to contra dances (and other kinds of social dance) for the men. I know quite a few happy couples* who met on the dance floor.
* Heterosexual couples, though I also know some homosexual couples who met dancing.", "timestamp": "1343135900"}, {"author": "Becky", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122480954562753", "anchor": "fb-122480954562753", "service": "fb", "text": "It seems to me that people's intentions are almost beside the point. Yes, some men likely come to dance primarily to interact with women, and it *might* be more than the women who come primarily to dance with men. It's hard to know, because men in our culture feel more empowered to behave in a way that shows this clearly, e.g. aggressively seeking out their preferred (female) partners, and it has more troubling connotations when they do. So to me, in terms of constructive solutions to some of the problems discussed in earlier threads, it makes more sense to focus on men's behaviors than to point fingers about their intentions. Men are perfectly within their rights to come contra dancing \"for the women\" -- it's when they begin, usually unintentionally, to make women feel uncomfortable or interfere with the dynamics of the dance partnering process as a result, that the community needs to up and address that.", "timestamp": "1343136360"}, {"author": "Daniel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122481531229362", "anchor": "fb-122481531229362", "service": "fb", "text": "David, I would note that people who go once and never return are probably not representative of the general community. (Sorry.) Perhaps if you had liked the dancing, and not just the girl, you might have continued attending. That's not a bad thing, just a perspective.
Jeff, I'm sure there are (straight) men who attend dances for the women. However, I really don't think this is a majority stake as your friend puts it. For myself, I come to dance. I have a mild preference for dancing with women, particularly women around my age, but I also have preferences for dancing with good friends, for dancing with skilled dancers, for dancing with people who like to swap genders during the dance, for dancing with people I haven't met or danced with before, and probably more that aren't coming to mind right now. None of these are terribly strong preferences, and I will probably enjoy a dance with nearly anyone on the dance floor, and I will ask any of them who are left (I'm usually not among the first people to grab a partner.)
Perhaps my strongest preference is to dance with different people throughout the night. Aside from a girlfriend or very close friend, or on rare occasions if they're the only person left, I avoid dancing with the same person multiple times in a night. This loosens in full day or weekend long festivals, but is pretty consistent in a typical 3-hour dance. It's also worth noting that my preference for dancing with women is considerably weaker when I have a girlfriend, yet I still attend dances.", "timestamp": "1343136475"}, {"author": "Dan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122481607896021", "anchor": "fb-122481607896021", "service": "fb", "text": "I go for the dancing/music and for the friends I might know there. I gave up the hope of finding a boyfriend on the dance floor long ago.", "timestamp": "1343136492"}, {"author": "Alex", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122488417895340", "anchor": "fb-122488417895340", "service": "fb", "text": "I don't think it's as cut-and-dry as Mary's claiming, but she's also far from the first one I've heard express that understanding. Personally, I come for the community first, the music second, the dancing-inspired smiles third, and only fourth for the women. Everyone has slightly different reasons for going, and I don't think it's easily categorizable based on gender.", "timestamp": "1343137844"}, {"author": "Ben", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122499134560935", "anchor": "fb-122499134560935", "service": "fb", "text": "Mary implies a larger gender discrepancy than actually exists. Yes, men may have a different balance of motives for dancing than women, but I don't think it's as different as Mary thinks. Even if men are coming for the women, anyone who has been to more than a few dances understands that a woman asking him to dance isn't the same implication as asking him out on a date.
This means, motives aside, that women asking men to dance won't cause any problems or misunderstandings that wouldn't have come up anyway based on the nature of the man and his ability to read social cues.", "timestamp": "1343139836"}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/109502185221418876252", "anchor": "gp-1343141288248", "service": "gp", "text": "I naively assume everyone is there to dance! I don't think I've spoken to anyone who was explicitly at a contra dance to pick people up, though I've certainly spoken to people who were there because their friends were.\n
\n
\nI have spoken to one woman who believed that men tended to be there to dance and women tended to be there for the men; she said that the Chicago dance had a pattern of losing women but not men when they got in relationships with other dancers. \n
\n
\nOn the other hand, women are much more open to dancing with other women at the gendered contras I've been to than men are to dancing with other men. This does give me the feeling that men are there for something other than dancing, but I think it is just as likely to be simply a reflection of the different ways homophobia acts on men and women.", "timestamp": 1343141288}, {"author": "Allison", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103741579182942078941", "anchor": "gp-1343141516393", "service": "gp", "text": "I think that Mary's explanation for why folks \nstart\n dancing is more or less consistant with my experience (swing, contra, salsa). \u00a0And given that contra is beginner-friendly, a good proportion of dancers at any given dance will be new enough to still have those motivations. \u00a0For more experienced dancers, I feel like most of them are there to dance and/or see friends, and I've seen next to no difference between genders in terms of motivation.", "timestamp": 1343141516}, {"author": "Ralph", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122510721226443", "anchor": "fb-122510721226443", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm one of those older men, mentioned earlier, who was sorta raised sorta homophobic (certainly not to a \"gay-bashing\" level). Getting over that has been a journey - from realizing, years ago, that a friend was gay but we could still be friends, through making eye contact with a man during an allemande, to occasionally dancing with a man if the gender are badly unbalanced. When I started contradancing, it was definitely for \"dancing with women\". Now it's moving a little toward \"dancing\". It'll be interesting to see what the future brings......", "timestamp": "1343141708"}, {"author": "John", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122515457892636", "anchor": "fb-122515457892636", "service": "fb", "text": "One of the things I really like about contra dancing is that you essentially dance / interact with everyone in the hall. In a given dance you spend less than half the time with your partner. For dances with heys you get to see the eyes of everyone in the line. Where else in life (other than ECD) is there anything like this? I usually dance at gender-free dances where most of us don't care which role we dance or what gender the partner is. but I've seen a huge change in scout house dances and at NEFFA about people dancing with the same gender or reversing roles; and now it is extremely rare that if I ask a man to dance that he refuses which didn't use to be the case.", "timestamp": "1343142389"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122527721224743", "anchor": "fb-122527721224743", "service": "fb", "text": "A variant on the \"be in love for 10 minutes\" theme is my favorite capsule summary of contra dancing as \"aerobic flirting\". I go for both the dancing and the \"flirting\", but in the latter case it's sure as hell not \"for the women\". :-)
Which is not to say that I'm not happy to dance -- flirtatiously of otherwise -- with anyone of any sex.", "timestamp": "1343144148"}, {"author": "Mary", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122542931223222", "anchor": "fb-122542931223222", "service": "fb", "text": "I don't have time for the whole thread today, but please note that I didn't say it was \"cut and dried\" or that the majority of men only contra for the women. I only said that those men were a big enough proportion of contradancers (and particularly of not-so-good contradancers) to affect whether I ask strangers to dance or not--the topic of the original thread--and also to be quite noticeable when compared to non-contra folk dancers.", "timestamp": "1343146420"}, {"author": "Sarah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122543387889843", "anchor": "fb-122543387889843", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm tempted to say that I only go to contra dances \"for the women\" because, let's face it, I'm a big ol' flirt and I like the ladies. But, that's not really reflective of my reality. I'd say I'm somewhere closer to friends and community first, music/caller second, dancing third, and flirting fourth, in terms of motivation to attend a dance. Though, I should say that flirting is quite closely tied to friends and community for me, and as such I'm WAY more likely to flirt with folks if I know them already than if I just met them that evening. For me, a dance is primarily a way to hang out with my friends doing something we all enjoy together. Any flirting or potential attractions that occur are icing on top.
Also to reiterate Martha's point, it's not just \"men wanting to dance with women\" as much as \"people wanting to dance with partners who fit their sexual preferences\". I think any discussion of men's dance behaviors vs. women's dance behaviors should take into account that some of the same dynamics occur for queer folks who like to dance with same-sex/gender partners because of the potential sexual tension. For many people flirting is a central part of contra and it's more fun to flirt when you know the other person is enjoying your advances (which is not to say that you can't or shouldn't flirt with people whom you might not be sexually interested in, but that's a different kind of fun).", "timestamp": "1343146497"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122546867889495", "anchor": "fb-122546867889495", "service": "fb", "text": "@Travis: \"If straight men leave dances and or/not dance because there are no more women, then yes\"
What if there are straight men who are there to dance, but also feel uncomfortable dancing with men or are afraid to ask unknown men to dance? They might leave or not dance if there were more men than women, but it doesn't imply that if women ask them to dance, instead of waiting to be asked, that they will resent the imposition.", "timestamp": "1343146970"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122547771222738", "anchor": "fb-122547771222738", "service": "fb", "text": "@Becky: \"Men are perfectly within their rights to come contra dancing 'for the women' -- it's when they begin, usually unintentionally, to make women feel uncomfortable or interfere with the dynamics of the dance partnering process as a result, that the community needs to up and address that.\"
If more men are coming \"for the women\" does this mean the women who are there to dance and not \"for the men\" should avoid asking and wait to be asked?", "timestamp": "1343147116"}, {"author": "TC", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122552444555604", "anchor": "fb-122552444555604", "service": "fb", "text": "I guess it is just a difference in dance cultures...if people were there to dance...it really wouldn't matter who you are dancing with and that person would just dance..because they are there to dance. I think the gender-free dancing is *so radically* different then non-gender free dancing, so I'm not really the best person to comment on this! I just wanted to throw in the reminders that you can dance without thinking about gender at all..and that it really IS all about the dancing..and that is it!", "timestamp": "1343147963"}, {"author": "Becky", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122558337888348", "anchor": "fb-122558337888348", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jeff, absolutely not, unless that's what they prefer or what makes them feel more comfortable. Men are within their rights to come dancing \"for the women\" but that doesn't mean that women should compromise so radically in their own partnering choices in order to enable men to dance with their preferred partners. Ideally I think everyone would ask and be asked with equal frequency, giving everyone equal agency in the partnering process. Compromise is part of the community dancing experience, and that includes sometimes compromising on your choice of partner. The attitude of entitlement that a small number of men can get (e.g. that they are entitled to dance with only young attractive women all evening and/or that women are obligated to dance only with men and to dance with every man who asks them) commodifies and pressures women, making contra dances feel like not a safe space for them. Fortunately it is a small number of men who exhibit these outwardly problematic behaviors. The bottom line is, I couldn't care less who's there \"for the women\" as long as they are respectful and balance their own desires with those of other dancers.", "timestamp": "1343148368"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122559231221592", "anchor": "fb-122559231221592", "service": "fb", "text": "@Travis: \" you can dance without thinking about gender at all..and that it really IS all about the dancing\"
Whether someone is attracted to the person they are dancing with can have an effect on how much they enjoy it. For most people gender and attraction go together to some extent, and so if \"how much would I enjoy dancing with this person\" is part of deciding who to dance with, gender does enter into it. I would expect this to hold true even at dances that are gender-free; does it not?", "timestamp": "1343148497"}, {"author": "TC", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122563571221158", "anchor": "fb-122563571221158", "service": "fb", "text": "No, it actually doesn't! Can I get any of my gender-free dancers to back me up on this? I'm not saying flirting does not happen at dances, but people at the gender free dances in JP and in SF are really there to dance regardless of gender/attractiveness/sexuality...and most would dance with a flag pole if it would balance and swing with them.", "timestamp": "1343149292"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122564274554421", "anchor": "fb-122564274554421", "service": "fb", "text": "One step in Mary's reasoning that I wasn't thinking about before is the implication that even if you're there \"to dance\" and not there \"to dance with people you find attractive\" that you don't have preferences about who you dance with. Someone may be there only \"to dance\" but really care about having a good partner, for example. Women avoiding asking men to dance would really only be better if men had much stronger preferences about who to dance with.
(And even then we could discuss about whether a situation that did a better job of satisfying people's preferences but systematically ignored the preferences of one group would actually be \"better\".)", "timestamp": "1343149421"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122565311220984", "anchor": "fb-122565311220984", "service": "fb", "text": "@Travis: \"most would dance with a flag pole if it would balance and swing with them\"
Do people not have *any* preferences as to partnering, or just not gender-based ones? Are there people who prefer dancing with someone who leads all sorts of fun variations, or who really like dancers with a smooth swing, or dancers with really good timing?", "timestamp": "1343149591"}, {"author": "TC", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122568097887372", "anchor": "fb-122568097887372", "service": "fb", "text": "Yeah, preferences are based on dancing style or someone you might be friends with etc. It's really not that big of a community and it's usually the same crowd. Also, we're really into beginners, so a lot of prefer to grab the beginners so that they feel welcomed etc. At one point, some women was showing up who looked like my older sister..so I kept asking her to dance. So sure, at the end of the dance, we all stop and go find that next person to dance, and everyone must have their own agenda about who to ask next, but I feel pretty safe in saying that is really does not have *anything* to do with gender/hotness.", "timestamp": "1343149989"}, {"author": "Taviy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122581571219358", "anchor": "fb-122581571219358", "service": "fb", "text": "Travis, i admire your faith in the genderfree community, but you're making me feel shallow [inappropriate comment about flagpoles redacted]. Sarah you need to come to JP Saturday so we can flirt like mad. :-)
While everyone has their own way of prioritizing the reasons for contradance (community, sociability, music, exercise, flirtation), contradance doesn't exist in a vacuum. It makes perfect sense that, particularly in more \"traditional\" areas of the dance community, social norms about men initiating interactions and \"pursuing\" women are replicated, though perhaps at a much weaker level than in society at large. Yet i think Martha had a great point that heterosexual men aren't the only ones who come for the flirtation, and to expand on that, imo it is pretty archaic and thoroughly heteronormative to make that distinction around traditional gender/sex roles.
As Ralph describes his own evolution, i would contrast my own. I began dancing long before i was aware of or comfortable with my sexuality, and thus flirtation was the lowest priority on my list. Today the balance is a bit different for me, and i've learned the joy of tuning in to different dynamics with partners, whether they're wicked-fun elder ladies, rowdy lesbians, SCA hunks, friends like you Jeff, or the inimitable Stephen Thomforde (eg, incredibly energetic, joyously techincal, dizzyingly physical). Yet the surest way to ruin an evening of dancing for me (and i do this all the time, stupidly) is to focus on flirtation at the expense of other elements of the dance. I find it helpful to choose partners who are self-aware enough to deliberately match each others' focus on that g-rated sexual tension (or to ratchet it up to pg-13 if we're both into that, or to back off commensurately if one of us is less into it). There are definitely partners of all sexes i avoid because i know they're more interested in flirting with me than i am with them (and they're not willing to read the situation and turn the flirtation down = bad dance experience no matter their skill level).
I guess my point is that everyone has their own balance of comfort and enjoyment. Mary's observation may have some basis, but i don't think it healthy to extract from that basis a partnering rubric which unintentionally propagates heteronormativity and sexism in contradance. When it comes to partnering, why not just base it on a simple injuction? Engage your awareness of social dynamics to the max, and do what will make you and a potential partner most comfortable.", "timestamp": "1343152321"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122632891214226", "anchor": "fb-122632891214226", "service": "fb", "text": "When I was single, I came to dances partly to meet men. Even when I haven't been actively looking for a partner, I care which people I dance with. I think the sketchiest/ most un-fun men are worse than the worst women, so if anything, I would expect women to care more than men about which partners they end up with. (assuming different-sex partnering)", "timestamp": "1343158945"}, {"author": "Gary", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122692741208241", "anchor": "fb-122692741208241", "service": "fb", "text": "I generally come to dances for the dancing(whether contras or salsa), and I will ask almost anyone that appears to me like someone is approachable. While I may take looks into account when asking someone (whether it is a women or man), the most important thing for me is that I feel comfortable with them, and I will adjust my style to be compatible with theirs. If they are beginners, then I will be less flashy. If they are playful, I will ham it up a bit. Most of my dancing has been in a gendered setting, and in those instances I will usually not ask a man to dance unless I know they are ok with it, or if there are extra men.", "timestamp": "1343170097"}, {"author": "Peter", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122694551208060", "anchor": "fb-122694551208060", "service": "fb", "text": "It was always about the communion, no matter how much I enjoyed the dance.", "timestamp": "1343170419"}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122713364539512", "anchor": "fb-122713364539512", "service": "fb", "text": " When I moved to DC from the Midwest, visiting women dancers would always complain about how often they got hit on, and specifically say they came to dances to dance. At least one dancer, from Michigan, lived in DC for several months, but never came to contra, explicitly because this behavior made it preferable to stay home and read a book. So while this sheds no light on the claim that men come to meet women, it does suggest women come to dance.
Something that might shed light on whether men and women have different motivations is how many men stop dancing after they've met someone (or only go to dancers where they find prospects, &c), v. e.g. how many women continue to dance, or start dancing, despite having a partner.", "timestamp": "1343174121"}, {"author": "Steve", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122775004533348", "anchor": "fb-122775004533348", "service": "fb", "text": "Partner dancing seems to be a little more popular with men, whereas hip hop and zumba classes are a lot more popular with women.", "timestamp": "1343186608"}, {"author": "Kim", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=122835467860635", "anchor": "fb-122835467860635", "service": "fb", "text": "Travis: My wife and I had a quite different experience from what you describe the (couple, not recent) times we've gone to a JP contra. I rarely needed to ask someone to dance; my wife (who is shy about asking) was rarely asked, and often failed to find a partner. This difference in experience occurred despite her being an excellent dancer. We ultimately concluded she just wasn't the preferred gender of dance partner for most of the people there.", "timestamp": "1343198689"}, {"author": "Adrian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=123204817823700", "anchor": "fb-123204817823700", "service": "fb", "text": "I agree completely with Becky. And it's not about what would be more or less beneficial in terms of who asks who to dance. Also, it shouldn't be such a gender essentialist/straight-focused conversation. There's a lot more out there, but Becky said it best in terms of male-dominated dance interactions. There are reasons a woman would not want to dance with a guy apart from attraction, ie, feeling comfortable/safe. Consent works wonders! Oh, also, re: the discussion of attraction and acting on it in this thread--it's not an equal opportunity thing and it's laced with power dynamics. So that line of reasoning without recognizing that is a bit flawed.", "timestamp": "1343265326"}, {"author": "Becky", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=123231927820989", "anchor": "fb-123231927820989", "service": "fb", "text": "Marianna, you're absolutely right. Because Jeff's original question was posed explicitly about straight men, I was addressing it within that framework, but of course queer folks have their own experiences and that needs to be part of a broader conversation as well. I do think that cultivating the mindset I discussed above re: everyone understanding the need to compromise on dance partners (with the exception that no one should EVER dance with a person who makes them feel physically or emotionally unsafe) would address some of the issues that I see queer and queer-seeming folks face at contra dances, such as a man becoming frustrated because two women are dancing together while many men are sitting out.", "timestamp": "1343271141"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=123392577804924", "anchor": "fb-123392577804924", "service": "fb", "text": "@Becky: \"Jeff's original question was posed explicitly about straight men\"
It was? I was trying not to do that. What about it indicates a focus on men? On straight men?", "timestamp": "1343303684"}, {"author": "Becky", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=123409931136522", "anchor": "fb-123409931136522", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jeff, your whole post isn't about straight men, but the question posed in the one-line summary is (\"Is it your experience that 'women come to dance while men come for the women'?\"). A question about men coming to dance \"for the women\" is a query about mostly straight men, right, by virtue of those men being interested in women? So when I was addressing that part of the question it made sense to do so in a straight framework. You do, elsewhere in the post, ask more generally about people's experiences as well.", "timestamp": "1343306408"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=123504197793762", "anchor": "fb-123504197793762", "service": "fb", "text": "Becky \"the question posed in the one-line summary is ... a query about mostly straight men\"
How is it? If you're trying to guess off of a stranger's gender how they might feel about you asking them to dance, you don't generally know whether they're straight.
(I do agree that Mary's comments, which I was quoting, are primarily about straight people.)", "timestamp": "1343321501"}, {"author": "Becky", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=123506967793485", "anchor": "fb-123506967793485", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, I'm talking about the single line of text you posted on facebook, accompanying the link to your post. That's the question I was responding to, and because it's essentially a question restatement of Mary's comment, you seem to agree with me that it is primarily about straight people. I'm not saying this is a bad thing -- it's okay to ask questions about straight people -- but that's what I meant.", "timestamp": "1343321890"}, {"author": "Mary", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=123561271121388", "anchor": "fb-123561271121388", "service": "fb", "text": "As for talking about straight people: I think homosexuals may split along the same lines of dancing to dance vs. dancing with ulterior motives, but I don't have a big enough sample to opine for certain that it's the gay men who dance for the dancing and the lesbians who dance to chase women. I can only give an anecdote that was originally intended as a response to Jeff's quoting Paul on \"good friends, good dancers, and good looking\": the only female friend of mine who ever mentioned my appearance as a reason to want to socialize with me was a lesbian. So I thought that the fact that you (Jeff) could casually agree about appearance ranking as high as #3 on a list of reasons to dance with someone made my point so much better than I had made it. To wit, why would I want to ask someone to dance when I might not meet their standards of attractiveness? (Or maybe I'm not a good enough friend, or maybe I'm not a good enough dancer, either.) The only way I'll know if some stranger with a list like that wants to dance with someone like me is if he actually asks me to dance.", "timestamp": "1343331409"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=123675877776594", "anchor": "fb-123675877776594", "service": "fb", "text": "@Mary: \"casually agree about appearance ranking as high as #3 on a list of reasons to dance with someone\"
That was intended to be a roughly complete list, mostly showing the relative ordering of the three. I wasn't trying to imply that all other reasons were less important than attractiveness or anything.", "timestamp": "1343353514"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=123679294442919", "anchor": "fb-123679294442919", "service": "fb", "text": "@Becky: \"you seem to agree with me that it is primarily about straight people\"
I still don't see the one line summary that way. (I'm sticking on this because I want to understand what leads you to read it that way so I can be aware of it in the future. If you're annoyed we can stop.) I read it as a question about whether the general tendency of two large heterogenous groups of people (men and women) matches a particular hypothesis. In as much as queer people don't match the hypothesis that's evidence against it's generality. As are men who come to dance or women who come to socialize with friends. The question is whether these people who don't match the posited general rule are numerous enough that approximating the motives of a stranger where you know little about (but can probably read their gender) as \"if they're female they probably came here to dance, if they're male they probably came here to spend time with women\" is going to steer you wrong. While I think the answer is yes, it will steer you wrong (and I thought that before I posted, but I wanted to check), I see the question itself as highly inclusive.
(Did you change your mind about whether you read it as about straight men as opposed to straight people?)", "timestamp": "1343354220"}, {"author": "Becky", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=123696784441170", "anchor": "fb-123696784441170", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, re: straight men vs straight people, I was quoting you when you said that Mary's comments were \"primarily about straight people\". The question itself only really has evidence of a focus on straight men, in that it mentions those hypothetical men's relationship towards women but doesn't mention the hypothetical women being interested in a particular gender. I still read the question \"Is it your experience that 'women come to dance while men come for the women'?\" as posed in a straight framework, because it's taking as the default that men would be interested in women specifically, rather than people in general. A similar question in a more neutral framework might be \"Is it your experience that women come to dance while men come to flirt or find romantic partners?\"", "timestamp": "1343357611"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=123701274440721", "anchor": "fb-123701274440721", "service": "fb", "text": "@Becky: \"Is it your experience that women come to dance while men come to flirt or find romantic partners?\"
While that phrasing sounds more orientation-neutral it also changes the meaning in a way that makes it less applicable.
Backing up, I was trying to get other people's opinions on a claim Mary was making about the general preferences of men and women, which could then be used in deciding whether to ask someone to dance While her claim was not that everyone's preferences are the same, gender-wide, she was claiming that they were consistent enough that \"men come for the women, women come to dance\" is a good approximation Asking whether men come to flirt in general as opposed to with women is not the right question to test the claim with because men who come for the men are counterexamples.", "timestamp": "1343358408"}, {"author": "Mary", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=123991381078377", "anchor": "fb-123991381078377", "service": "fb", "text": "I don't think #3 vs. #6 is as relevant as on the list vs. off the list. For me dancing is a group social activity, and I don't interact with people based on their looks (or even their talent) in that context. If I want to dance with better dancers, I go to a different dance (and usually a different dance form). I don't go to a dance and expect to dance with anything other than a random sample of who's there.", "timestamp": "1343411053"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/122460247898157?comment_id=124050877739094", "anchor": "fb-124050877739094", "service": "fb", "text": "@Mary: While I have more fun dancing with someone who is, say, a better dancer, that doesn't mean I aggressively seek out the best dancers and ignore everyone else. I still dance with a wide range of people, but those three aspects, in descending order of importance, seem to have a big effect on how much I enjoy dancing with various partners.", "timestamp": "1343421924"}]}