{"items": [{"author": "Bil", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797803483302", "anchor": "fb-797803483302", "service": "fb", "text": "I didn't start dancing until the early 80's, so I largely missed the totally straight, opposite sex partnering. This was Stanford. Other dance groups were a bit taken aback by opening partnering, but they accepted us. All the callers I remember used \"Belle\" and \"Beau\". There was that one fine day when we managed to have an entire square of Bills.", "timestamp": "1467646264"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797810359522", "anchor": "fb-797810359522", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm a little uncertain where this post is heading. If you're imagining a future where dancing with same-gender partners is 'the norm\", we're a long way from there, and I don't actually see it as a likely outcome.
But something tells me you're really making some other point that I'm missing.", "timestamp": "1467647916"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797810359522&reply_comment_id=797810998242", "anchor": "fb-797810359522_797810998242", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The former. I agree that this would be a ways off, and it would be most likely to happen as a generational thing.", "timestamp": "1467648155"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797810359522&reply_comment_id=797812804622", "anchor": "fb-797810359522_797812804622", "service": "fb", "text": "→ So you don't think we (well, you, since we're probably talking about a time later than I'm likely to be around) are going to settle into a \"norm\" where people dance with whoever they choose irrespective of gender? That's where I see things heading (and what I would hope for).", "timestamp": "1467649384"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797810359522&reply_comment_id=797814945332", "anchor": "fb-797810359522_797814945332", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'd like that norm, and I think there's some chance we end up there, but I also think it's somewhat unstable and may continue from there to what I'm describing in this fictional conversation.", "timestamp": "1467650700"}, {"author": "Diane", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797810359522&reply_comment_id=797960877882", "anchor": "fb-797810359522_797960877882", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Part of your premise here seems to be that the person dancing the man's role is leading and telling their partner what to do. I would argue that in a contra dance, it's the caller who's telling everyone what to do. And flourishes can be lead or done from either side, if both people are open to it.", "timestamp": "1467695533"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797810359522&reply_comment_id=797994255992", "anchor": "fb-797810359522_797994255992", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Diane: While you can dance without flourishes, or either role initiating, it really looks to me like we're moving toward \"flourishes are standard, and are lead by the jet\". More details: https://www.jefftk.com/p/what-is-leading-in-contra , https://www.jefftk.com/p/the-changing-dynamic-of-contra and https://www.jefftk.com/p/even-more-on-lead-follow", "timestamp": "1467726937"}, {"author": "Eric", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797810359522&reply_comment_id=798086730672", "anchor": "fb-797810359522_798086730672", "service": "fb", "text": "→ In the last two years a few people have started leading flourishes for me when I dance gent. So I think this may change too.", "timestamp": "1467774130"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797814336552", "anchor": "fb-797814336552", "service": "fb", "text": "\"In a world...\"", "timestamp": "1467650232"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1467650259"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797814351522&reply_comment_id=797814995232", "anchor": "fb-797814351522_797814995232", "service": "fb", "text": "→ speculative fiction", "timestamp": "1467650724"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1467650765"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797814351522&reply_comment_id=797816447322", "anchor": "fb-797814351522_797816447322", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Getting a rough sense that this was where we were going, or at least somewhere we could go?", "timestamp": "1467651533"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797814481262", "anchor": "fb-797814481262", "service": "fb", "text": "Are there other examples where you see our culture headed toward doing certain activities only with \"same-gendered\" folks? I'd have thought that if anything things have been moving the other direction.", "timestamp": "1467650320"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797814481262&reply_comment_id=797814630962", "anchor": "fb-797814481262_797814630962", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Or any other reason to think things would head this direction? You commented that not everyone's straight as a reason they wouldn't, but I think I'm missing something in that I don't see why they would.", "timestamp": "1467650479"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797814481262&reply_comment_id=797815159902", "anchor": "fb-797814481262_797815159902", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Various traditional social dances are done separately by the men and women.
Mostly, though, this seems like an alternative stable equilibrium.", "timestamp": "1467650819"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797814481262&reply_comment_id=797815329562", "anchor": "fb-797814481262_797815329562", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"Various traditional social dances are done separately by the men and women.\"
Sure, but I see that as part of an older pattern where men and women do things separately. I don't see any sign of that pattern coming back.", "timestamp": "1467650940"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797814481262&reply_comment_id=797815369482", "anchor": "fb-797814481262_797815369482", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"Mostly, though, this seems like an alternative stable equilibrium.\"
Are you thinking that gender/role flexibility isn't stable?", "timestamp": "1467650975"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1467651472"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797816811592", "anchor": "fb-797816811592", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, can you give some sense of the time frame on which you think this is plausible? (30 years?)", "timestamp": "1467651733"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797816811592&reply_comment_id=797903492882", "anchor": "fb-797816811592_797903492882", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I was thinking me being 60-70ish, so 30-40 years.", "timestamp": "1467682773"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797816811592&reply_comment_id=798286769792", "anchor": "fb-797816811592_798286769792", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'm tempted to offer a long bet (maybe you'd take 3 to 1 odds against this happening?), but it seems kinda impractical.", "timestamp": "1467899195"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797816811592&reply_comment_id=798295382532", "anchor": "fb-797816811592_798295382532", "service": "fb", "text": "→ It's a very specific scenario; I'd want pretty good odds.
Would a reduced specification like \"more couples will be same gender than opposite gender\" be something you're interested in?", "timestamp": "1467905528"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797816811592&reply_comment_id=798737456612", "anchor": "fb-797816811592_798737456612", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Or \"more couples will be male-male or female-female than male-female\"?", "timestamp": "1468113698"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797816811592&reply_comment_id=798737636252", "anchor": "fb-797816811592_798737636252", "service": "fb", "text": "→ That sounds about right, but just barely more isn't enough because of (a) random chance, and (b) if there are more people in one of those gender categories than the other, then even random coupling gets you more male-male/female-female couples than male-female.", "timestamp": "1468113910"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797816811592&reply_comment_id=798737855812", "anchor": "fb-797816811592_798737855812", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Should bets on that kind of time scale be indexed to inflation or something?", "timestamp": "1468114026"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797816811592&reply_comment_id=798737930662", "anchor": "fb-797816811592_798737930662", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'd also say a bet on that time scale should be canceled if either one of us is dead, so our estates don't have to worry about it. (This would be unfair if there were a correlation between our difference in lifespans and the content of the bet, but I imagine that's not the case.)", "timestamp": "1468114136"}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797943078552", "anchor": "fb-797943078552", "service": "fb", "text": "> But back when opposite gender partnering was normal asking someone to dance wasn't asking them if they wanted to date you or anything, it was just a casual thing, like \"I think we'd have fun dancing together, shall we?\"
Or, in my experience, fairly often it was like \"I'd like to dance, this dance form requires partners, and I don't have a partner for the next dance, and it looks like you don't either, shall we?\" :^)
( I also think (and hope!) that The Demise Of Gender (or at least the lessening importance of it) is more likely than your scenario here.)", "timestamp": "1467686624"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797943078552&reply_comment_id=797950014652", "anchor": "fb-797943078552_797950014652", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I am also hopeful that we can make gender go away entirely.", "timestamp": "1467688465"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1467689521"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797943078552&reply_comment_id=797955538582", "anchor": "fb-797943078552_797955538582", "service": "fb", "text": "→ From everything, yes.", "timestamp": "1467691162"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797943078552&reply_comment_id=797955568522", "anchor": "fb-797943078552_797955568522", "service": "fb", "text": "→ (I think contra should to continue to have two separate roles, but I want to unlink them from social gender. Of course, if we succeed and social gender is gone, then this is a non-issue.)", "timestamp": "1467691211"}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797943078552&reply_comment_id=797981376802", "anchor": "fb-797943078552_797981376802", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Right, just like partners in a contra dance don't make any particular effort to make sure one of them has short hair and one of them has long hair, or whatever.
I predict that the contra dance community might be on the leading edge of Demise Of Gender, but I'm also hoping for the general demise, not just contra specifically.", "timestamp": "1467716697"}, {"author": "Chaos", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797948817052", "anchor": "fb-797948817052", "service": "fb", "text": "Gah, so this made me a little twitchy because i (a woman who hits on women) have had the \"wow, asking people to dance is scary because what if they think i'm hitting on them\" thing for, like, the entire time i have been involved in any dance forms with asking people to dance. So it's a little weird to see it framed as this out-there hypothetical. :>)", "timestamp": "1467687702"}, {"author": "Chaos", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797948817052&reply_comment_id=797948861962", "anchor": "fb-797948817052_797948861962", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Disclaimer: this is probably more about me and what makes me twitchy than about the actual situations in question. But still.", "timestamp": "1467687769"}, {"author": "Lawrence", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797981890772", "anchor": "fb-797981890772", "service": "fb", "text": "See a lengthy thread on the scottish teachers facebook group. I'll try to find the link later.", "timestamp": "1467717389"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797981890772&reply_comment_id=797994345812", "anchor": "fb-797981890772_797994345812", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'd be curious to read it!", "timestamp": "1467726980"}, {"author": "Lawrence", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797981890772&reply_comment_id=797994909682", "anchor": "fb-797981890772_797994909682", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman I'm not sure how to link to a specific thread, but if you go to the Scottish Country Dance teachers group and search for my name, it'll come up near the top:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/5808618015/search/...", "timestamp": "1467727657"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797981890772&reply_comment_id=797996646202", "anchor": "fb-797981890772_797996646202", "service": "fb", "text": "→ https://m.facebook.com/groups/5808618015?view=permalink&id=10153394559893016", "timestamp": "1467728743"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797981890772&reply_comment_id=797996701092", "anchor": "fb-797981890772_797996701092", "service": "fb", "text": "→ From that thread, it sounds like people at Swat have switched to lead/follow for contra?", "timestamp": "1467728795"}, {"author": "Lawrence", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797981890772&reply_comment_id=797996970552", "anchor": "fb-797981890772_797996970552", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman yes.", "timestamp": "1467728823"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797981890772&reply_comment_id=797997190112", "anchor": "fb-797981890772_797997190112", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I can't comment in the thread, but I'm confused by the person saying that it's sexist to change the terms just so that men can dance in the women's line without being referred to as women. My experience with contra is that people who don't like the male-female terminology are not predominantly one gender.", "timestamp": "1467728961"}, {"author": "Scott", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797981890772&reply_comment_id=797998557372", "anchor": "fb-797981890772_797998557372", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"I'm confused by the person saying it's sexist\" what they mean is just that they don't like it", "timestamp": "1467729839"}, {"author": "Lawrence", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797981890772&reply_comment_id=798001491492", "anchor": "fb-797981890772_798001491492", "service": "fb", "text": "→ At least in SCD, it has long been common for women to dance with women, but only recently has it become common for men to dance with men, or for men and women to dance together but on \"opposite\" sides. The person saying it is sexist (and the scores of people who agree with her) is basically coming from a place where women have always danced anywhere, so why do the men need some special linguistic accommodation so they'll feel comfortable doing the same? I tried to make the point that a) they do not, and b) I was suggesting updating the terminology to reflect the reality and to be more welcoming of non-binary dancers. But \"if it ain't broke, don't fix it\" is very hard to get past when people don't think the thing is actually broken.", "timestamp": "1467731041"}, {"author": "Lawrence", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797981890772&reply_comment_id=798002215042", "anchor": "fb-797981890772_798002215042", "service": "fb", "text": "→ As a demonstration, one of the \"it ain't broke\" camp noted, \"Last night we had the situation where 2 sets of ladies refused to split up so 2 men had to dance together, which is generally still not the norm in Lancashire.\" The words \"refused\" and \"had to\" strongly imply that social pressure is that people may not dance on whatever side they wish, and that men are expected to dance on the men's side, especially when dancing with a woman.", "timestamp": "1467731212"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=797981890772&reply_comment_id=798025857662", "anchor": "fb-797981890772_798025857662", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sounds like a question of who exactly it \"ain't broke\" for. I would think it's broken for somebody if the community is acting like men are entitled enough to dance with women that some women are being pressured not to dance with each other so that the men can.", "timestamp": "1467744750"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=798138352222", "anchor": "fb-798138352222", "service": "fb", "text": "In relatively modern ballroom and contra dance notation (early- late 20th century), the instructions are given for the gentleman, with the implicit assumption that the man will lead the woman in the figures where a lead is appropriate. In earlier and some later exceptional works, the instructions are given to the *lady*, with the implicit assumption that the gentleman will figure out what to do. These dances tended to have symmetric handholds, rather than modern ballroom position.
This doesn't really tell us that the lady is leading, but can certainly be interpreted as meaning that leading isn't needed and that everyone just follows the (well known) choreography.
In very early arguably-related renaissance dance, and some early ECD (early 19th century), the highest ranking lady is explicitly expected to choose the dance and who will dance it (unless the King is present).
Assumptions that everything has been the same for as long as the dances have existed, or that there is only one way to dance them, are wrong.", "timestamp": "1467820214"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=798141396122", "anchor": "fb-798141396122", "service": "fb", "text": "\"But doesn't that mean that men would be leading all the time? A whole evening of men telling women what to do?\"
This is where this piece derailed for me. This character clearly thinks that leading is \"telling people what to do.\" One of my biggest arguments with those trying to divorce the terms lead and follow from contra is that it removes the conversation about what leading and following are, and thereby the opportunity to open the horizons of those that think it's one person telling another what to do.
Leading and following are nuanced and labeling them as inappropriate/bad/wrong within contra is removing that nuance from the dialogue.", "timestamp": "1467822172"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=798141396122&reply_comment_id=798142793322", "anchor": "fb-798141396122_798142793322", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sorry, Jeff. I know this doesn't closely follow your topic of gender trends and choosing/finding partners, but I thought it reasonable to point out.", "timestamp": "1467822992"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=798141396122&reply_comment_id=798144684532", "anchor": "fb-798141396122_798144684532", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Neither of these fictional characters is me. The bit you're quoting is a way I've heard a lot of people talk about leading, and it seems likely that some people will continue to think of it this way.", "timestamp": "1467824215"}, {"author": "Gawain", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=798141396122&reply_comment_id=798145712472", "anchor": "fb-798141396122_798145712472", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Mac Thanks for this. I've often had to leave discussions about leading/following because people who don't understand that leading is not the same as deciding or telling people what to do. I often make analogy to driving a car; you still need one person to be the driver even if everyone is navigating and deciding where to go together.", "timestamp": "1467824936"}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=798141396122&reply_comment_id=798146121652", "anchor": "fb-798141396122_798146121652", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Gawain, guess what. The follow is driving the car. You can suggest turning left as the lead, but the follow decides if that is appropriate given the situation. They can skip the turn and keep going straight if that's safer. A good driver and navigator will work together to get where they're going safely and effectively.", "timestamp": "1467825275"}, {"author": "Gawain", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=798141396122&reply_comment_id=798146321252", "anchor": "fb-798141396122_798146321252", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Danner I think that's what I meant. You can't have 2 drivers", "timestamp": "1467825414"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=798141396122&reply_comment_id=798329219722", "anchor": "fb-798141396122_798329219722", "service": "fb", "text": "→ For many dancers, unfortunately leading does mean telling the other person what to do.", "timestamp": "1467921835"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=798141396122&reply_comment_id=798329344472", "anchor": "fb-798141396122_798329344472", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Dancing is not driving a car. It is driving to human bodies. Both bodies need to move, so both people are steering.", "timestamp": "1467921879"}, {"author": "Lauren", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=798484797942", "anchor": "fb-798484797942", "service": "fb", "text": "What's interesting about this fictional story of the future is, in conservative religious communities, a \"barn dance\" style event often results in same-sex partners - unless people are married or going steady. Holding hands with the opposite sex is SO charged with romantic meaning, it's not normal at all (prayer can be the exception, but only in large groups).
So alternative language other than \"gent\" and \"lady\" is more helpful and accessible to these groups, as it accommodates the culture. We tend to think of same-sex partnering as more modern/liberal/progressive, or associate it with queer contra gatherings, etc. It all depends on one's starting point.
Brilliant caller Diane Silver brings red & yellow traffic tape to these type of community & family events for non-dancers. Red tape bracelets for the right-side folks, yellow tape bracelets for the left-side folks. Then it's \"red on the Right, yellow on the Left,\" and little boys and girls can dance together without anyone getting upset and finding something sexual about it. (\"MY son ain't no lady!\" etc.) I believe she also calls one's partner your \"dance buddy,\" to avoid any romantic labels as well.
I feel this humorous, future scenario has played out before my eyes in a more conservative context - like a family picnic dance for a mostly right-wing group - in the present-day.", "timestamp": "1467986897"}, {"author": "Craig", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/797790539242?comment_id=798526863642", "anchor": "fb-798526863642", "service": "fb", "text": "NEWSFLASH: 21st century Contra dancing \u2018evolves\u2019 into 18th century Shaker dancing \u2014 segregation by sex/genders rules the day !!
[ This was my first thought upon reading Jeff\u2019s OP. I\u2019ve been sitting this one out, but now that Lauren has referenced \u201cfamily picnic dance for a mostly right-wing group\u201d \u2026 my first-thought seems tame enough to share. Well. Hopefully. ]
PS, Like Lauren, I find a bit of humor in this future scenario; please take my Newsflash in kind.", "timestamp": "1468000603"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1468126306"}]}