{"items": [{"author": "Beth", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938843927122", "anchor": "fb-938843927122", "service": "fb", "text": "Did you count the Portland Oregon techno contra? Noah is calling larks/ravens gender free for our community.", "timestamp": "1524629222"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938843927122&reply_comment_id=938844151672", "anchor": "fb-938843927122_938844151672", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Is this a regular dance? Is there a website?", "timestamp": "1524629347"}, {"author": "Mark", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938843927122&reply_comment_id=938846302362", "anchor": "fb-938843927122_938846302362", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Katy Tarter German Steve Howe Carol Ormand", "timestamp": "1524631368"}, {"author": "Beth", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938843927122&reply_comment_id=938885443922", "anchor": "fb-938843927122_938885443922", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman once a month in portland.", "timestamp": "1524668258"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938843927122&reply_comment_id=938886047712", "anchor": "fb-938843927122_938886047712", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Looking online I'm not seeing it; is there a website?", "timestamp": "1524668635"}, {"author": "Beth", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938843927122&reply_comment_id=938886886032", "anchor": "fb-938843927122_938886886032", "service": "fb", "text": "→ there's a facebook group (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1716440711958372/) and its posted on the pcdc site (http://portlandcountrydance.org/dance-schedule/)", "timestamp": "1524669241"}, {"author": "Noah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938843927122&reply_comment_id=938938527542", "anchor": "fb-938843927122_938938527542", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman I don't have a website. our monthly series has spread mostly word of mouth and facebook (though i hear the teens and 20s have moved on to snap chat) . And the word has reached your ears :) please, spread the gospel! :)", "timestamp": "1524696758"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938843927122&reply_comment_id=938950618312", "anchor": "fb-938843927122_938950618312", "service": "fb", "text": "→ If you make a website, even a tiny one, I could add it to www.trycontra.com so people could find it", "timestamp": "1524702538"}, {"author": "Lisa", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938843927122&reply_comment_id=938996501362", "anchor": "fb-938843927122_938996501362", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Also contradancelinks", "timestamp": "1524746917"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938859261392", "anchor": "fb-938859261392", "service": "fb", "text": "Who did you poll? Did you poll a cross section of people of all ages, cis and trans, LGBTQ and non, in all regions of the country? I would like to believe that more people are open to it than not, but my experiences tell me otherwise.", "timestamp": "1524650081"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938859261392&reply_comment_id=938866367152", "anchor": "fb-938859261392_938866367152", "service": "fb", "text": "→ We polled our dancers: https://blog.bidadance.org/.../switching-to-larks-and...", "timestamp": "1524658219"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938859261392&reply_comment_id=938873138582", "anchor": "fb-938859261392_938873138582", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I posit that your dance community just *may* not be representative of the dance community in general. I wish it were though.
This is not to say that we shouldn't make a move to change terms. I am on board. But I also don't think that we should overestimate the support there is for a change in terminology.", "timestamp": "1524661888"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938859261392&reply_comment_id=938880738352", "anchor": "fb-938859261392_938880738352", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Sorry Perry, where are you getting that I think my dance community is representative of the broader community?
What makes sense for different communities will definitely vary!", "timestamp": "1524665767"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938859261392&reply_comment_id=938880883062", "anchor": "fb-938859261392_938880883062", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Indeed. But I also think there is a drive to push these changes nationwide by a lot of folks.", "timestamp": "1524665881"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938859261392&reply_comment_id=938886022762", "anchor": "fb-938859261392_938886022762", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think all of:
* Whether Larks / Ravens is a good fit for a community will depend on that community.
* There are a lot of communities (especially costal, urban ones) where switching is a good idea.
* As more dances switch and people become accustomed to gender free calling the number of communities where Larks / Ravens would be a good fit to increase.
* Eventually I'd like to see Larks / Ravens everywhere.", "timestamp": "1524668602"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938859261392&reply_comment_id=938886052702", "anchor": "fb-938859261392_938886052702", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The folk process will do its magic eventually, as it always has.", "timestamp": "1524668636"}, {"author": "Jen", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938859261392&reply_comment_id=938887943912", "anchor": "fb-938859261392_938887943912", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Trust the [folk] process", "timestamp": "1524670074"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938872115632", "anchor": "fb-938872115632", "service": "fb", "text": "yup, it's time", "timestamp": "1524661442"}, {"author": "Kristen", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938873717422", "anchor": "fb-938873717422", "service": "fb", "text": "Working on it!", "timestamp": "1524662098"}, {"author": "Dela", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938876846152", "anchor": "fb-938876846152", "service": "fb", "text": "Thanks for creating this!", "timestamp": "1524663865"}, {"author": "Garrison", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938885379052", "anchor": "fb-938885379052", "service": "fb", "text": "The weekly Downtown Amherst Contradance (http://amherstcontra.org/Amherst_Contradance/Home.html) is trying out Larks/Ravens", "timestamp": "1524668172"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938886901002", "anchor": "fb-938886901002", "service": "fb", "text": "I remember at the end of Flurry, there were folks suggesting that attendees advocate for gender-free terminology in their evaluation surveys. (I did, and I know others who did.) I have no idea how widespread this ended up being, and how likely it is to have any effect, but I am now wondering if we might do something similar for NEFFA. (I suspect that's a harder sell.)", "timestamp": "1524669255"}, {"author": "Frannie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938886901002&reply_comment_id=938889835122", "anchor": "fb-938886901002_938889835122", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I submitted a gender free session using larks/ravens for NEFFA, it wasn't chosen. I'll try again next year.", "timestamp": "1524670808"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938886901002&reply_comment_id=938891406972", "anchor": "fb-938886901002_938891406972", "service": "fb", "text": "→ https://tinyurl.com/NEFFA2018", "timestamp": "1524671747"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938886901002&reply_comment_id=938891556672", "anchor": "fb-938886901002_938891556672", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I included asking for l/r on mine", "timestamp": "1524671764"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938886901002&reply_comment_id=938892255272", "anchor": "fb-938886901002_938892255272", "service": "fb", "text": "→ ... I somehow only just figured out the correspondence between lark/raven and left/right. *facepalm*", "timestamp": "1524672379"}, {"author": "Angela", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938886901002&reply_comment_id=938893782212", "anchor": "fb-938886901002_938893782212", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I forgot to include a suggestion on my NEFFA evaluation to call with Larks and Ravens, but,
+ I called a spontaneous contra dance out on the lawn on Sunday with Larks and Ravens to about 30 dancers who seemed to have a grand time
and,
+ I was personally called out (\"Angela, turn to your *left*\") from the stage by a caller in one session for being in the wrong place when I wasn't. Gender-free terminology gives the dancers the benefit of the doubt. (It's worth mentioning that the caller tracked me down and apologized after the fact, but I'm willing to bet that I was far from the only person in the room to whom they owed an apology)", "timestamp": "1524673406"}, {"author": "Angela", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938886901002&reply_comment_id=938893951872", "anchor": "fb-938886901002_938893951872", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Ruthan, you're not the only one. I have no idea how to convey this information more widely than we've been doing, but I'm constantly seeing comments on facebook from individuals who are indignant because \"there's no logic\" to the new \"arbitrary\" terms. Maybe you have suggestions for where/how to better broadcast this information?", "timestamp": "1524673535"}, {"author": "Angela", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938886901002&reply_comment_id=938893961852", "anchor": "fb-938886901002_938893961852", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Maybe I'll make an infographic next month.", "timestamp": "1524673552"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938886901002&reply_comment_id=938894366042", "anchor": "fb-938886901002_938894366042", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I didn't feel like there was _no_ logic -- the words scan the same as the gendered terms, which matters. I don't know that there's an obvious way to publicize All The Sense It Makes other than sneaking it into intro lessons/walkthroughs/etc.", "timestamp": "1524673883"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938886901002&reply_comment_id=938896396972", "anchor": "fb-938886901002_938896396972", "service": "fb", "text": "→ And another way to remember l/r:", "timestamp": "1524675002"}, {"author": "Angela", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938886901002&reply_comment_id=938898517722", "anchor": "fb-938886901002_938898517722", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff, I like your brain.", "timestamp": "1524676325"}, {"author": "Lisa", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938886901002&reply_comment_id=938974390672", "anchor": "fb-938886901002_938974390672", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I ask the callers on the reminder email for our JP GF Contra to remind dancers of the R/Right/Raven L/Left/Lark, but they don't do it. It makes a difference for people once they get it.", "timestamp": "1524718441"}, {"author": "Les", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938889490812", "anchor": "fb-938889490812", "service": "fb", "text": "Has anyone put together a guide for callers that are new to Larks and Ravens? (Frannie, Andy Shore, Dana Parkinson). I've been at a few dances that were trying this for the first time and there seem to be ways to help callers make the adjustment, some of which are more helpful and satisfying to the dancers than others.", "timestamp": "1524670567"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938889490812&reply_comment_id=938889605582", "anchor": "fb-938889490812_938889605582", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'm wondering how difficult that is for most callers. When I called a larks/ravens dance, I just threw myself into it, defining the terms at the start and just going at it. I think my first dance I made maybe one mistake and called out gent or lady, but for the most part I was successful.", "timestamp": "1524670726"}, {"author": "Les", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938889490812&reply_comment_id=938890044702", "anchor": "fb-938889490812_938890044702", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Perry I've seen an array of successes and failures. Four of our local dances use these terms, so when we have callers from out of town, it can be their first time. I will note that for me \"historically, the gent's role\" is less helpful or descriptive than \"the role that ends the swing on the left\", because our dance community is one in which experienced contra dancers know which role is which, it is new dancers who need the explanation. I feel like there is also a lot more success with remembering to use Larks and Ravens for allemandes and dosidos and less for chains. It also can be helpful (I think) to suggest use of post it notes or redacting tape for people who use paper cards, and to point out that Callers Companion lets you switch terminology.", "timestamp": "1524670950"}, {"author": "Frannie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938889490812&reply_comment_id=938890214362", "anchor": "fb-938889490812_938890214362", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Les we should talk about this in a couple weeks when we're together in MA. Maybe we can write something up using both our experiences.", "timestamp": "1524671109"}, {"author": "Lindsey", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938889490812&reply_comment_id=938898707342", "anchor": "fb-938889490812_938898707342", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I can weigh in as an \"out of town\" caller.", "timestamp": "1524676492"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938889490812&reply_comment_id=938898986782", "anchor": "fb-938889490812_938898986782", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Please do write something; I'd love to link it from www.bidadance.org/caller-welcome", "timestamp": "1524676768"}, {"author": "Chet", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938889490812&reply_comment_id=938921047572", "anchor": "fb-938889490812_938921047572", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Perry, I've only called with non-gendered terms a handful of times (so far!), and a pain point I've encountered (for myself, not the dancers) stems from one of the ways I learn dances.
I call [trad] square as well as contras, and called squares before I called contras, and so my calling involves varying amounts of patter. For some sequences I drill the patter, reciting phrases quickly with no inflection, over and over. I etch the phrases onto my brain so they are immediately available when calling with lower cognitive load. Some of those phrases are gendered, and I sometimes trip up altering them on the fly. I reduce the amount of patter I use when calling non-gendered terms, so it's not *too* much of an issue.
Of course, I should drill non-gendered patter ^_^, but that doesn't eliminate the old stuff. Some of trad square callers were passing around ideas about intentionally non-gendered patter a while back.", "timestamp": "1524687832"}, {"author": "Lisa", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938889490812&reply_comment_id=938974545362", "anchor": "fb-938889490812_938974545362", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'd love to see a copy of this also. Please to add something about reminding dancers of the R/Right/Raven L/Left/Lark. It makes a difference for people once they get it.", "timestamp": "1524718629"}, {"author": "Leah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938889490812&reply_comment_id=938995892582", "anchor": "fb-938889490812_938995892582", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Related to the \"patter\" problem, I sometimes hear callers remember to switch the role names but keep using the pronouns they're accustomed to -- so you'll hear things like \"the lark takes the raven in a promenade hold and leads her back to his home position,\" which defeats the purpose.
It's clearly not malicious, clearly just force of habit, but it does reinforce the idea that \"lark\" is a politically-correct euphemism for \"man\" and not a dance role with no necessary gender. And I think, like Chet was saying, the solution is to practice non-gendered canned explanations for common moves.", "timestamp": "1524746359"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938889490812&reply_comment_id=938996271822", "anchor": "fb-938889490812_938996271822", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"the lark takes the raven in a promenade hold and leads her back to his home position\"
Before switching away from Gents / Ladies we would tell callers not to use gendered pronouns for the roles, since the idea was supposed to be that these were dance roles not gender roles. We mostly had people using \"they\" or just only ever using second person, but I occasionally needed to talk to callers about avoiding his/her.", "timestamp": "1524746620"}, {"author": "Laura", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938889490812&reply_comment_id=939007773772", "anchor": "fb-938889490812_939007773772", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'm curious, how would you alter \"leads her back to his home position\" without being either tongue-twisted or confusing? \"Leads them back to their home position\" doesn't work because you don't know whose home position you're going to. \"and leads the raven back to the lark's home position\" I suppose could work but it sounds clunky.", "timestamp": "1524751385"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938889490812&reply_comment_id=939010513282", "anchor": "fb-938889490812_939010513282", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Laura: I'd switch to second person: \"Larks, lead your partner home\". Or call to both: \"Promenade until the Lark is home\"", "timestamp": "1524752725"}, {"author": "Lindsey", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938889490812&reply_comment_id=939028681872", "anchor": "fb-938889490812_939028681872", "service": "fb", "text": "→ +1 calling to both!", "timestamp": "1524763310"}, {"author": "Sam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938963447602", "anchor": "fb-938963447602", "service": "fb", "text": "I don't know if you are still counting, but ContraFolk at Virginia Tech (https://gobblerconnect.vt.edu/organization/contrafolk) just finished up it's first year (three dances each semester) using Ravens and Larks and is planning on being around next year!", "timestamp": "1524711256"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=938963447602&reply_comment_id=938964994502", "anchor": "fb-938963447602_938964994502", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Added!", "timestamp": "1524712042"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/102160427390304223340", "anchor": "gp-1524740914561", "service": "gp", "text": "I've danced at the gender-free contra years ago and remember the bands. I was curious if Lark/Raven originated in Left/Right and found confirmation at \nhttps://blog.bidadance.org/2017/06/switching-to-larks-and-ravens.html\n . I like the terms and hope for the continued usage of it!", "timestamp": 1524740914}, {"author": "Dave", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=939001236872", "anchor": "fb-939001236872", "service": "fb", "text": "One thing you don't have here is, \"start a new dance series using larks and ravens.\" In some communities, I think that is a better way to get people left out of the current dances to start attending.", "timestamp": "1524749621"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=939001236872&reply_comment_id=939002184972", "anchor": "fb-939001236872_939002184972", "service": "fb", "text": "→ That's a very good idea!", "timestamp": "1524750052"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=939001236872&reply_comment_id=939006651022", "anchor": "fb-939001236872_939006651022", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Edited the post to add this.", "timestamp": "1524750733"}, {"author": "Cedar", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=939027129982", "anchor": "fb-939027129982", "service": "fb", "text": "I fully support using Larks/Ravens, and I'll think about how to pull it off in Greenfield. However, I'm many areas I don't think starting a new series is a good idea. We're already on the edge of oversaturation in many areas, and a new series could further hurt attendance at individual dances.", "timestamp": "1524762429"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=939027129982&reply_comment_id=939028442352", "anchor": "fb-939027129982_939028442352", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think it depends where you are, and I don't know what makes sense everywhere. But I think in many places if the current dance(s) aren't the kind of place that would be up for gender free calling then there's potential for a new series to draw a different crowd.
I also think it's generally healthy to have some amount of ebb and flow of dances, with new ones starting in a burst of new organizational energy and others stopping when they don't have the support anymore.", "timestamp": "1524763204"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=939027129982&reply_comment_id=939033307602", "anchor": "fb-939027129982_939033307602", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I echo Cedar's concerns regarding saturation, but also agree with Jeff's thoughts as well. I think that starting a new series is at least worth a try, and is more likely to succeed than not trying at all.", "timestamp": "1524766121"}, {"author": "Les", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=939027129982&reply_comment_id=939035353502", "anchor": "fb-939027129982_939035353502", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Its an interesting question, because trying to sort out what makes a dancer go to a given dance is all sorts of complicated. Twice a month, I get to chose whether to drive an hour north to dance, drive an hour and a half south to dance, or do something else. I generally only dance on those nights if there is good weather, but I would go more often if one of those dances felt more welcoming. I also have only two chances a month to dance on weeknights, so could see where more weeknight dances would be useful and could be sustainable. Though I know other dancers find dancing once a month to be adequate for them.", "timestamp": "1524767098"}, {"author": "Luke", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/938839471052?comment_id=939412003692", "anchor": "fb-939412003692", "service": "fb", "text": "The Mad Robin Callers Collective tries to call one of our monthly dances gender-free once a year, we just ran our April dance using Larks/Ravens.
In supportive dance communities using these term in experimental situations, I often overhear dancers explaining it to each other \"The ravens are the ladies\", etc. Some folks, probably out of habit, map it that way.", "timestamp": "1525015571"}]}