{"items": [{"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=315989111830957", "anchor": "fb-315989111830957", "service": "fb", "text": "Most people aren't performers, so they don't feel directly compared to the artificially perfect performance.", "timestamp": "1344433830"}, {"author": "Phinneas", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=315990395164162", "anchor": "fb-315990395164162", "service": "fb", "text": "although I have never really thought much about the \"perfect\" imiges in magizins & stuff but have always gotten kind of agervated by performes that sounded too \"perfect\" & have always sought out more real sounding voises like Johnny Cash, Kris Kerstopherson ext.", "timestamp": "1344434184"}, {"author": "Peter", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=315991391830729", "anchor": "fb-315991391830729", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jan - I'm waiting for Tim to start using auto-tune.", "timestamp": "1344434500"}, {"author": "Jan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=315991955164006", "anchor": "fb-315991955164006", "service": "fb", "text": "He actually doesn't need it! (Unlike me.) But I hate listening to auto-tune. You can hear it, yes?", "timestamp": "1344434620"}, {"author": "Amelia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=315991965164005", "anchor": "fb-315991965164005", "service": "fb", "text": "let's not forget that much of the recorded music out there is not meant to replicate a live performance. Often it makes more sense to evaluate a recording as an artifact unto itself. The Beatles stopped touring and created some of their most innovative work in the studio, and no one complains that they couldn't have reproduced it live.", "timestamp": "1344434628"}, {"author": "Jan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=315992205163981", "anchor": "fb-315992205163981", "service": "fb", "text": "Ah, but many did complain. But it got old fast.", "timestamp": "1344434693"}, {"author": "Amelia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=315992451830623", "anchor": "fb-315992451830623", "service": "fb", "text": "excuse me. no one complains ANY MORE. :)", "timestamp": "1344434760"}, {"author": "Christopher", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=315995581830310", "anchor": "fb-315995581830310", "service": "fb", "text": "Once you have lost your ability to discern between raw beauty and manufactured beauty is the moment you have lost touch with reality, and perhaps the artist, or philosopher, in you. A raw recording, full of noise, has a different aesthetic than a polished recording. A live performance has a different aesthetic than any recording. To not take the medium into account when comparing items of sensory pleasure suggests a certain laziness of thought or perception.", "timestamp": "1344435500"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=315998481830020", "anchor": "fb-315998481830020", "service": "fb", "text": "I think we equate people's physical appearance much more strongly with who they are than we do with their other abilities. Being extremely good-looking will make a lot of people to assume you're a good person, and the positive effects of excellent musician are more limited. Likewise, having pimples or whatever is a bigger hit to most people's opinion of you than making mistakes in music.", "timestamp": "1344436148"}, {"author": "John", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316001228496412", "anchor": "fb-316001228496412", "service": "fb", "text": "It's a lot more rewarding to look at a flower than a picture of a flower; to listen to a contra dance band at a dance than to their recording; to see a real person in action instead of their picture.", "timestamp": "1344436718"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316002898496245", "anchor": "fb-316002898496245", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jan: \"I hate listening to auto-tune. You can hear it, yes?\"

While there's currently a lot of music that use autotune in a way that sounds very obvious, even more music uses it to make small adjustments that aren't apparent in the final recording.", "timestamp": "1344437101"}, {"author": "Zoe", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316004018496133", "anchor": "fb-316004018496133", "service": "fb", "text": "As a professional musician, I even had no idea how much splicing went into recordings until I started recording. The editing process is as much an act of creation as the playing of the music itself. It's caused me to developed a very deep respect for live recordings!", "timestamp": "1344437314"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316004355162766", "anchor": "fb-316004355162766", "service": "fb", "text": "@Paul: \"Most people aren't performers, so they don't feel directly compared to the artificially perfect performance.\"

What about humor then? Most people try to be funny at times, but we're also exposed to an abundance of composed but spontaneous-appearing humor in various media. We're not going to come up with snappy retorts as witty as the people on Seinfeld appear to.", "timestamp": "1344437409"}, {"author": "Jan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316004508496084", "anchor": "fb-316004508496084", "service": "fb", "text": "@ Julia: interesting comment, but seems like apples & oranges. And I hope I don't habitually judge someone who's good-looking as a good person. More like: wonder how that super-attractive person deals with folks hitting on him/her all the time? and how that acne-plagued person deals with folks probably avoiding him/her? Now, applying that to music ... hmm.", "timestamp": "1344437451"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316005101829358", "anchor": "fb-316005101829358", "service": "fb", "text": "@Phinneas: \"have always sought out more real sounding voises\"

Even the most \"real sounding\" artists you'll hear are picking the best of multiple takes, probably doing some local cleanup, and going through a lot of post-processing.", "timestamp": "1344437573"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316005925162609", "anchor": "fb-316005925162609", "service": "fb", "text": "@Amelia: \"Often it makes more sense to evaluate a recording as an artifact unto itself.\"

But then extend this: perhaps we should be evaluating magazine covers as artifacts unto themselves? Not objecting that they look better than any real person but enjoying them for their level of beauty attainable only with careful work by talented professionals?", "timestamp": "1344437783"}, {"author": "Amelia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316006325162569", "anchor": "fb-316006325162569", "service": "fb", "text": "it's a useful metaphor but I'm not going to completely reevaluate my relationship to recordings based on the ethics of doctoring photos.", "timestamp": "1344437858"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316006865162515", "anchor": "fb-316006865162515", "service": "fb", "text": "@Amelia: If you're happy with your view of recordings you could revaluate your idea of whether cleaning up photos is ok. Or what keeps them from being comparable?", "timestamp": "1344437971"}, {"author": "Amelia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316009635162238", "anchor": "fb-316009635162238", "service": "fb", "text": "If we're going to have a frank and open discussion about the pervasive use of photoshop in glossy magazines--whether there are circumstances under which it's ok, what are the social and psychological ramifications of accepting it, how it inflects our conception of beauty--then I'm happy to have it. But not as some bizarre extension of a discussion of the wide and varied process of editing a recording.", "timestamp": "1344438538"}, {"author": "Amelia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316009998495535", "anchor": "fb-316009998495535", "service": "fb", "text": "make that: \"the wide and varied uses of editing in the recording process.\" or something. you know what I mean.", "timestamp": "1344438614"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316013125161889", "anchor": "fb-316013125161889", "service": "fb", "text": "@Amelia: \"some bizarre extension of a discussion of the wide and varied process of editing a recording\"

These issues are not specific to musical recordings and glossy magazines. You see them in every field where a recorded and potentially modified version of something (sitcoms, nature photography, kung-fu movies) compares with a live version (hanging out with people, time outside, martial arts).", "timestamp": "1344439525"}, {"author": "Jeremy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316023651827503", "anchor": "fb-316023651827503", "service": "fb", "text": "Part of the difference is that we expect recorded music to be engineered, but somehow we assume that photographs are not significantly altered. People believe in photographs. We believe what we see, and no one is really psychologically prepared to distrust their most essential of senses.", "timestamp": "1344441407"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/102416904694769227737", "anchor": "gp-1344441881045", "service": "gp", "text": "Could you cite a source (or more) for \"People clearly have distinct but highly correlated attractiveness preferences\"?", "timestamp": 1344441881}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1344442500"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316033001826568", "anchor": "fb-316033001826568", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jeremy: \"we expect recorded music to be engineered\"

Do we? Zoe's comment above (and my experience talking to non-musicians) makes me think we mostly don't.", "timestamp": "1344443548"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1344444061"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1344444966415", "service": "gp", "text": "@Ruthan\n\u00a0Imagine we showed random pairs of pictures of people and asked participants to choose the more attractive one. \u00a0With enough participants making enough judgements you could calculate both a global rank on the pictures and a per-participant rank. \u00a0I would predict that the per-participant ranks would be highly correlated with the global rank.\n
\n
\nLooking to see if anyone has actually done something like this, the closest I find is \"Using revealed mate preferences to evaluate market force and differential preference explanations for mate selection.\" (Dustin Wood and Claudia Brumbaugh 2009, \nhttp://csoppsocialbases.wikispaces.com/file/view/market+force+mate+selection.pdf\n) \"Participants of both genders showed substantial consensus in judgments of whom they found attractive and unattractive, although men showed higher consensus than women.\"", "timestamp": 1344444966}, {"author": "Jim", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316052908491244", "anchor": "fb-316052908491244", "service": "fb", "text": "GG had a lot to say about this.
http://lvbandmore.blogspot.com/.../327-glenn-gould...", "timestamp": "1344448090"}, {"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316053598491175", "anchor": "fb-316053598491175", "service": "fb", "text": "I think a lot of kids give up on music or other creative arts at about the same age that they start to become worried about their own appearance. The pressure to live up to impossible standards can be oppressive.
And Jeff: in regards to humor; there are a lot of people who don't realize their jokes aren't as good as Jon Stewart's Perhaps it would be better for the rest of us if they did. ;)", "timestamp": "1344448255"}, {"author": "Amelia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316054241824444", "anchor": "fb-316054241824444", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff: I find this is an interesting question, when applied with particularity: what is the cultural context of this work, what is the artist's intent, how do they play with our expectations, how much do we truly expect it to resemble real life, do we even care. But taken broadly, I find it absurd to talk about creative works--photography, sitcoms (!), films--as merely \"modified versions of something\" real. If you think a sitcom is funny for the same reasons that your conversations with friends are funny, you're missing the point (and you think your friends are a lot funnier than they are). If you think people viewing a kung-fu movie REALLY THINK that martial arts are like that, you are insulting their intelligence. I'm not arguing that there isn't value in aiming for some level of authenticity in art; I just don't think that's every artist's aim. And I'm not saying that there isn't sometimes a measure of deceit in some creative endeavors. I just think the medium, the artist's intent, and the audience's expectations matter very much.", "timestamp": "1344448410"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/106120852580068301475", "anchor": "gp-1344449672578", "service": "gp", "text": "Women are much more affected by standards of beauty than men. I haven't told thought through the significance of that for your question, but I suspect it matters...", "timestamp": 1344449672}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316069081822960", "anchor": "fb-316069081822960", "service": "fb", "text": "@Paul: \"there are a lot of people who don't realize their jokes aren't as good as Jon Stewart's\"

Jon Stewart has a team writing jokes. Preparation and technology give him an advantage over anyone making spontaneous jokes. Unassisted, some of our friends may well be close to as funny as he is.", "timestamp": "1344452213"}, {"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316073275155874", "anchor": "fb-316073275155874", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jeff point taken; the Daily Show is another example of artificial perfection.", "timestamp": "1344453210"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316074391822429", "anchor": "fb-316074391822429", "service": "fb", "text": "@Amelia: \"taken broadly, I find it absurd to talk about creative works ... as merely 'modified versions of something' real.\"

You're right, I was oversimplifying some. There's a spectrum between things where at one end we are thinking of there being a simple recording process that is supposed to preserve an experience to at the other where we have full out fiction creating an experience from whole cloth. When people talk about the negative effects of constantly seeing unusually attractive people in the media, however, it doesn't matter much whether the media they're talking about is trying to be a faithful capture of life: your sense of how the people around you compare in terms of attractiveness is still going to be affected. The same for music, humor, physical ability, etc. Watching movies where protagonists improve incredibly quickly at difficult skills with minimal training gives a sense that your own ability to learn is substandard. While people do realize to some extent that they're watching/listening to things that are have been edited, their standards and sense of what is acceptable is still influenced.", "timestamp": "1344453475"}, {"author": "Amelia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316083981821470", "anchor": "fb-316083981821470", "service": "fb", "text": "now THAT I would have to think more about. but I'd start by suggesting: while a recording of an incredible performance, or a hilarious sketch, might propel you to reach towards perfection in your craft, I don't think it's a problem that perfection might ultimately be beyond your grasp; there is value in striving, and improving. Reaching towards an impossible standard of beauty is another matter entirely, because of the physical toll it takes. And I really feel that we need to differentiate between HUMOR and COMEDY here. Comedy is a craft, and I would be VERY sad to see it disappear just because the jokes people write in writers' rooms aren't off-the-cuff. For that we have improv, and it is every bit as much a honed and practiced skill.", "timestamp": "1344455358"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316113445151857", "anchor": "fb-316113445151857", "service": "fb", "text": "@Amelia: \"Reaching towards an impossible standard of beauty is another matter entirely, because of the physical toll it takes\"

What about other things with a physical toll? If you're watching the worlds best athletes on TV you might get an inflated sense of \"normal\" physical ability and push yourself in damaging ways. (There are a lot of sports injuries.) Even with music its possible to hurt yourself by pushing yourself too hard. But you're right that striving for beauty takes a much bigger physical toll than any of the others, and many don't really take any physical toll at all.", "timestamp": "1344462466"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316114441818424", "anchor": "fb-316114441818424", "service": "fb", "text": "@Amelia: \"Comedy is a craft, and I would be VERY sad to see it disappear just because the jokes people write in writers' rooms aren't off-the-cuff\"

What about: \"retouching is a craft, and I would be very sad to see it disappear just because the images artists create in photoshop aren't literal representations of the human body\"?", "timestamp": "1344462723"}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112947709146257842066", "anchor": "gp-1344464479338", "service": "gp", "text": "I don't know if this is the reason it exists, but it seems like a reason to accept the dichotomy you mention: it's a lot easier to train yourself to be a more perfect musician, then it is to train yourself to be more perfectly beautiful (physically).", "timestamp": 1344464479}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1344473001916", "service": "gp", "text": "@Todd\n\u00a0\"easier to train yourself to be a more perfect musician, then it is to train yourself to be more perfectly beautiful\"\n
\n
\nThere's a lot you can do to adjust your appearance, especially if you consider cosmetic surgery.", "timestamp": 1344473001}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112947709146257842066", "anchor": "gp-1344474114748", "service": "gp", "text": "I think cosmetic surgery would be considered invasive and/or 'cheating' in a way that isn't true of musical training. That can apply to a lesser extent to things falling short of surgery as well.\n
\n
\nThere are also aspects of appearance that are very difficult or impossible to change short of (or even through) surgery. Height is an example- you can wear tall shoes if you're short, though that can only do so much, and if you're tall you can't even do that much to look shorter.\n
\n
\nI also agree with someone (not sure who) who mentioned that appearance seems more tied to people's identity. Look at how people regarded the changes to Michael Jackson's appearance. It was like he was trying to be a different person. Getting better at a musical instrument (or any other trainable skill) doesn't carry that kind of implication.", "timestamp": 1344474114}, {"author": "Ryan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/315986965164505?comment_id=316182728478262", "anchor": "fb-316182728478262", "service": "fb", "text": "Our standards for realism in physical beauty are enormously higher than our standards for musical realism because people, on average, rate their physical appearance as hugely more intrinsic to their identity. This difference in standards is clearly and obviously useful and should be upheld.", "timestamp": "1344481474"}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1344482738171", "service": "gp", "text": "Appearance is much more pervasive. Impossibly perfect music conveys an impossible standard to musicians, but pictures of impossibly atractive people convey an impossible standard to everyone who thinks about their appearance, which maybe isn't 100% of everyone, but is certainly a lot more people than people who care about their musical ability.\n
\n
\nAlso, don't most musicians know that recorded music sounds impossibly better than anything they're going to play live? I imagine that most non-musicians know that too. I suppose people know that models look impossibly better than normal people, but I still think there's a sense in which people say \"that's how I should ideally look\". I'm not sure I believe that musicians listen to a heavily produced recording, and say \"that's how I should ideally sound when I play live\". (Do you?)", "timestamp": 1344482738}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1344511901363", "service": "gp", "text": "@Josh\n\u00a0'''\u00a0I'm not sure I believe that musicians listen to a heavily produced recording, and say \"that's how I should ideally sound when I play live\".'''\n
\n
\nMaybe not a \"heavily produced\" one, but my sense of what a contra dance band should sound like has been shaped by a lot of listening to CDs.", "timestamp": 1344511901}]}