{"items": [{"author": "Vipul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/801128155632?comment_id=801133290342", "anchor": "fb-801133290342", "service": "fb", "text": "cc Issa", "timestamp": "1469287127"}, {"author": "Frederic", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/801128155632?comment_id=801138899102", "anchor": "fb-801138899102", "service": "fb", "text": "It appears that the \"steelman\" version of the argument is wrong, and they were unable to cherrypick \"deserving\" folks (ones who wouldn't stay on the welfare rolls indefinitely), according to this guy: http://blogs.roosevelt.edu/.../scientific-charity-and.../", "timestamp": "1469290023"}, {"author": "Linchuan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/801128155632?comment_id=801138899102&reply_comment_id=801142082722", "anchor": "fb-801138899102_801142082722", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Cool! I think I've talked with Ziliak briefly before, but not on this topic.", "timestamp": "1469290946"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/801128155632?comment_id=801138899102&reply_comment_id=801144393092", "anchor": "fb-801138899102_801144393092", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think the strongest version is something like \"it's possible to divide people based on whether giving them assistance is likely to make them less likely to need assistance in the future\", and I think this is probably true, though not easy or something we can do well now. It also doesn't deal with the problem that even the people who will still need assistance in the future are people whose suffering matters and we shouldn't just say \"sucks to be you\".
I haven't read the Ziliak pieces you reference (I was mostly reading people's writing from the time, which probably wasn't ideal) but I do suspect that he's right that the SC/COS people weren't able to successfully do this.
And hence my paragraph starting with \"Related to being more cautious, EAs are also much less confident that they know what people need better than they do.\"", "timestamp": "1469291557"}, {"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/801128155632?comment_id=801147741382", "anchor": "fb-801147741382", "service": "fb", "text": "Did they cite Mill or Bentham as inspiration? If not, I'm a bit less worried by their wrongheadedness - Victorians loved to call things \"scientific\".", "timestamp": "1469292594"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/801128155632?comment_id=801147741382&reply_comment_id=801147881102", "anchor": "fb-801147741382_801147881102", "service": "fb", "text": "→ No, they weren't utilitarian.", "timestamp": "1469292662"}, {"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/801128155632?comment_id=801147741382&reply_comment_id=801152412022", "anchor": "fb-801147741382_801152412022", "service": "fb", "text": "→ OK. I think that EA is only obvious given utilitarianism, and utilitarianism isn't obvious at all.", "timestamp": "1469294523"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1469313607"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/801128155632?comment_id=801147741382&reply_comment_id=801200989672", "anchor": "fb-801147741382_801200989672", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Earning to give while keeping most of the money is, given utilitarianism, generally better than not earning to give but worse than giving more generously.
So, much more defensible than what people typically do with their time or money.", "timestamp": "1469317847"}, {"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/801128155632?comment_id=801147741382&reply_comment_id=801201343962", "anchor": "fb-801147741382_801201343962", "service": "fb", "text": "→ More to the point, this seems not really anything to do with \"Scientific Charity\" and more a general-purpose bash against EA from someone who doesn't share the underlying philosophy anyway.", "timestamp": "1469318138"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1469319070"}, {"author": "David Chudzicki", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/801128155632?comment_id=801147741382&reply_comment_id=801206229172", "anchor": "fb-801147741382_801206229172", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Elliot, sorry if you've already hashed this out with EAs somewhere else, but I'm curious why you think \"earning to give while still keeping most of the money\" is \"indefensible given utilitarianism\".
My guess is that you're interpreting utilitarianism as including something like \"You must act to maximize utility; your actions are indefensible otherwise.\" (Sorry if I'm wrong.)
While I imagine there are versions of utilitarianism like that, I don't think most EAs have a view that's like that (and perhaps this is where the disconnect is).
My sense is that EAs' take on utilitarianism is more like \"utility is the way to evaluate the goodness [or something like this] of your actions\". The goodness/utility is only one criterion EAs use to decide what to do (\"make myself happy\") might be another.
Interested in what you're thinking.", "timestamp": "1469320428"}, {"author": "Frederic", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/801128155632?comment_id=801150216422", "anchor": "fb-801150216422", "service": "fb", "text": "I am also amused that these people ended up turning into the United Way.", "timestamp": "1469293672"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/801128155632?comment_id=801150216422&reply_comment_id=801150256342", "anchor": "fb-801150216422_801150256342", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I'd missed that! Link?", "timestamp": "1469293705"}, {"author": "Frederic", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/801128155632?comment_id=801150216422&reply_comment_id=801150485882", "anchor": "fb-801150216422_801150485882", "service": "fb", "text": "→ https://secure.unitedway.org/pages/history", "timestamp": "1469293861"}, {"author": "Vipul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/801128155632?comment_id=801150216422&reply_comment_id=801187262182", "anchor": "fb-801150216422_801187262182", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Maybe worth including in the Wikipedia page when you make it, Jeff?", "timestamp": "1469311248"}, {"author": "Romeo", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/801128155632?comment_id=801200355942", "anchor": "fb-801200355942", "service": "fb", "text": "Are you researching outside view on sign uncertainty for long term planning/interventions?", "timestamp": "1469317558"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/801128155632?comment_id=801200355942&reply_comment_id=801200635382", "anchor": "fb-801200355942_801200635382", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Just looking into interesting and relevant history, but you might find this a useful starting place if you're looking into it.", "timestamp": "1469317696"}]}