{"items": [{"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=109362289217750", "anchor": "fb-109362289217750", "service": "fb", "text": "Do you want to reduce your risk? Or do you believe the risk in a vehicle with plenty of airbags and antilock brakes is already low enough?", "timestamp": "1348436923"}, {"author": "Arthur", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=109377985882847", "anchor": "fb-109377985882847", "service": "fb", "text": "There's also the issue of risk homeostasis. Make a car safer for the driver, and they will increase the riskiness of their driving to compensate. Other road users, including bike/ped, are the losers.", "timestamp": "1348439258"}, {"author": "Nick", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=109382439215735", "anchor": "fb-109382439215735", "service": "fb", "text": "You allegedly get 1 micromort from driving 230 miles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort). Say that takes 4 hours, and say you get to reduce 10% of that by wearing the helmet. Then wearing a helmet for 1 hr saves your life with probability 1 in 40 million. So the question is whether you prefer a 1 in 40 million chance of saving your life or the convenience of not wearing a helmet in the car for an hour.
If you valued your life at $40M, then the question would reduce to whether you would be willing to wear a helmet for an hour if it saved you a dollar (neglecting safety benefits). I wouldn't wear a helmet for an hour for a dollar, and would pay a dollar to avoid wearing the helmet. Since all these estimates are average or conservative, that suggests it is not worth it to wear a helmet (at least for me).", "timestamp": "1348440323"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=109393575881288", "anchor": "fb-109393575881288", "service": "fb", "text": "In the extreme, stop driving. Save tens of thousands of lives a year in this country alone. But society has guessed that the benefits of driving outweigh the deaths. More specifically, what is the cost of the helmet and, multiplied by the number who buy them and never get into an accident. Divide that number of $ by the number of people whose lives are saved with _no_ other decrease in their quality of life. My guess is that it is not cost effective in quality life years saved. Yes, this is a complex axis of consideration, but a lot of questions can be answered, at least partially, economically.", "timestamp": "1348442776"}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112947709146257842066", "anchor": "gp-1348445815035", "service": "gp", "text": "I wonder how that compares to bike helmets. It's generally accepted that people should wear bike helmets, even if they often don't in practice. And since people spend so much more time in cars, arguably you don't need nearly as much in the way of per-mile or per-time unit harm reduction to make it worthwhile.", "timestamp": 1348445815}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=109423639211615", "anchor": "fb-109423639211615", "service": "fb", "text": "Compare the safety of cars vs horseback riding. I suspect that horses were a lot more dangerous mode of transport.", "timestamp": "1348449000"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=109442392543073", "anchor": "fb-109442392543073", "service": "fb", "text": "@Kiran: the question is whether the additional decrease in risk is enough to warrant the inconvenience of a helmet. It's not whether I want to reduce my risk (of course!) but whether it would go down by enough to be worth it.", "timestamp": "1348451752"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=109443559209623", "anchor": "fb-109443559209623", "service": "fb", "text": "@Walker: they seem to be more effective than side-curtain airbags while being much cheaper.
(And in my case I already have a bike helmet which I could just start wearing.)", "timestamp": "1348451992"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=109443712542941", "anchor": "fb-109443712542941", "service": "fb", "text": "@Phillip: I'm not sure what your point is.", "timestamp": "1348452019"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1348452969800", "service": "gp", "text": "Imagine someone who bikes regularly for a short commute. \u00a0With my 4 mile commute in 2009 that was about 2000 miles per year. \u00a0That looks like 100-200 micromorts [1], the same risk as 25k-50k miles in a car. \u00a0(That would be a lot of driving.) \u00a0I suspect a helmet has more of a protective effect when biking than driving. \u00a0So unless you bike infrequently, whether you wear a helmet while biking seems to have a much more significant on your health than whether you wear one in the car.\n
\n
\n[1]\u00a0\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort\n \u00a0Though that doesn't seem to include the health benefits of biking, which would give negative micromorts. \u00a0And I don't know if it's good or bad on balance.", "timestamp": 1348452969}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112947709146257842066", "anchor": "gp-1348454547339", "service": "gp", "text": "Your biking to driving ratio is far from representative, though.", "timestamp": 1348454547}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112947709146257842066", "anchor": "gp-1348454616948", "service": "gp", "text": "(and the rule of thumb isn't to wear a helmet only if you bike frequently)", "timestamp": 1348454616}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=109578372529475", "anchor": "fb-109578372529475", "service": "fb", "text": "Well, if you actually want to reduce your risk, what other options do you have? If you can't think of any others, you have to wear a helmet. (The others may be less or more inconvenient, and less or more useful, but you have to have an option, and I currently can't think of any.)", "timestamp": "1348481090"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=109734862513826", "anchor": "fb-109734862513826", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, that when we change tech one of the things that happened was an increase in safety. People often want reduce use of tech to improve safety (go back to a simpler time). It was inspired by Mac's extreme stop driving comment.", "timestamp": "1348502759"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1348506694761", "service": "gp", "text": "@Todd\n\u00a0Another way of saying this is that an hour of biking is about five times more dangerous than an hour of driving, and a helmet probably helps more when biking. \u00a0So a\u00a0rule like \"always wear a helmet when you bike\" is better per hour than \"always wear a helmet when you drive\".\n
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\nOverall, though, you're right that \"helmet to drive\" has more benefit than \"helmet to bike\" because people drive so much more. \u00a0But the inconvenience and unpleasantness of wearing a helmet are roughly proportional to time spent, so the cost of that rule is higher for driving.", "timestamp": 1348506694}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=109766972510615", "anchor": "fb-109766972510615", "service": "fb", "text": "@Kiran: other options depending on the situation include taking the bus, flying, walking, not going, sitting in the back of the car when a passenger, and buying a car with better safety features. All of these have cost-benefit tradeoffs, and I want to understand them better so I can make better choices.", "timestamp": "1348506918"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/117346402173047680184", "anchor": "gp-1348512072750", "service": "gp", "text": "There's also more costs to wearing a helmet in the car, simply because of the higher social stigma cost.", "timestamp": 1348512072}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1348512132016", "service": "gp", "text": "@Chris\n\u00a0Though presumably bike helmets went through the same thing.", "timestamp": 1348512132}, {"author": "Kiran", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=109896609164318", "anchor": "fb-109896609164318", "service": "fb", "text": "I was ignoring those options because they aren't related to safety *while driving*.", "timestamp": "1348526907"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=109954595825186", "anchor": "fb-109954595825186", "service": "fb", "text": "@Kiran: they're still options, with associated tradeoffs. But if you want to limit yourself for options while driving (a car you already have), there's driving more slowly, making sure you always have two people awake and watching the road, keeping more space between you and other vehicles, avoiding dangerous roads, keeping your car in excellent condition, not listening to music, eating, or texting, and keeping your headlights on during the day.", "timestamp": "1348538286"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=109958575824788", "anchor": "fb-109958575824788", "service": "fb", "text": "@Phillip: I suspect Walker was suggesting swapping cars for walking and public transit, not horses.", "timestamp": "1348539019"}, {"author": "Lynn", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=435431026610873", "anchor": "fb-435431026610873", "service": "fb", "text": "Sorry to jump into this conversation three years late, but wondering if any of you have made the decision to wear helmets while in the car?", "timestamp": "1421354330"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=435454193275223", "anchor": "fb-435454193275223", "service": "fb", "text": "@Lynn: My takeaway from this discussion was that the improvements in surface padding and airbags take away most or all of the benefit of a car helmet, so I don't wear one.", "timestamp": "1421360909"}, {"author": "Lynn", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=435480746605901", "anchor": "fb-435480746605901", "service": "fb", "text": "Ok thanks. But most deaths from motorvehicle collisions continue to be from head injuries, even with the improvements in vehicle design.", "timestamp": "1421367396"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=435493743271268", "anchor": "fb-435493743271268", "service": "fb", "text": "@Lynn: I would love to see someone repeat the 1997 study on modern cars, but I would expect that in most of the cases a helmet wouldn't have helped much.
On the other hand, if the problem with helmets is just that people won't wear them, I'm the kind of person who would.", "timestamp": "1421368281"}, {"author": "Lynn", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=435501243270518", "anchor": "fb-435501243270518", "service": "fb", "text": "After hearing a compelling plea from the guy behind this site: http://www.drivingwithoutdying.com/ I'm just experimenting this week with wearing one to see how it feels. Not much info, seems like the consensus is people wouldn't be willing to wear helmets in cars so it's never been seriously investigated. This was the only thing I found. http://www.cycle-helmets.com/helmets-in-cars.pdf Not sure if they are referencing the same research you had found.", "timestamp": "1421369014"}, {"author": "Don", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=435510946602881", "anchor": "fb-435510946602881", "service": "fb", "text": "I wore one when I was track driving. Uncomfortable and vision-impairing. However, pretty important when going at track speeds and the likelihood of someone coming at you from the wrong direction (therefore in your impeded view) was small.", "timestamp": "1421371308"}, {"author": "Amelia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=435545009932808", "anchor": "fb-435545009932808", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff you should wear a helmet all times, just to be safe.", "timestamp": "1421381254"}, {"author": "Tom", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=435662393254403", "anchor": "fb-435662393254403", "service": "fb", "text": "This is an interesting article: http://www.howiechong.com/journal/2014/2/bike-helmets
It argues that it's inconsistent to wear a helmet when biking but not when driving, though IIRC its stats don't establish this.", "timestamp": "1421404532"}, {"author": "Jordy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=435750539912255", "anchor": "fb-435750539912255", "service": "fb", "text": "That bike helmet article is full of baloney. I've read it before and its arguments make next to no sense.", "timestamp": "1421421200"}, {"author": "Lucas", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=435815803239062", "anchor": "fb-435815803239062", "service": "fb", "text": "One thing I've found amusing as personal anecdote, most people I see use the \"it's safer without\" argument generally wear no other safety equipment, or take any other steps towards increasing safety. Really makes me question motives.", "timestamp": "1421433893"}, {"author": "Evan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/109340582553254?comment_id=435830699904239", "anchor": "fb-435830699904239", "service": "fb", "text": "As someone who has pondered this question before, I'm glad you wrote this up. I'm not versed well enough in quantitative research to pose additional questions to solve to clarify the ultimate answer. More generally, I'm glad you bother to bring numbers to bear on questions to generate estimates. I wish more people I knew would do this for estimates other than cryonics registration.", "timestamp": "1421437593"}]}