{"items": [{"author": "Cory", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382191208499533", "anchor": "fb-382191208499533", "service": "fb", "text": "interesting, I pretty much disagree with that definition of what makes a good lead or follow these days. I'll take a good, solid \"lead\" any day over a guy who likes to twirl and fool around a lot, but doesn't have the smoothness of a really good dancer. There are some guys who have both, but I'm not 100% sure I'd always pick them over the good solid non-twirly dancer. But then again, sometimes I want to twirl and sometimes I don't, so I think my most favorite dancers are those who respect that and understand the \"ask and answer\" concept of leading. IOW, he \"Asks\" if I want to twirl (physically) and I respond, either by going with it or by not. A really good dancer understands the physical cue of \"no thank you\" and respects its.", "timestamp": "1336760434"}, {"author": "Peter", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103618186481362054522", "anchor": "gp-1336760564478", "service": "gp", "text": "I'm not certain of this, but many other contra communities have a much stronger culture of actively teaching beginner dancers. One results of this teaching is that things done by the majority (such as clapping after a Petronella turn) can still be understood as optional flourishes and not strictly part of the dance.", "timestamp": 1336760564}, {"author": "Uma", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382205351831452", "anchor": "fb-382205351831452", "service": "fb", "text": "What are all of these crazy substitutions you speak of? I can't think of any beside extra twirls/turns or modifications to the swing, maybe some fancy stuff with the allemande. I'm curious if the dance style is really all that different in Boston than it is here in Georgia. Or are you calling a \"led\" dance what I tend to call \"a bunch of flourishes\"?", "timestamp": "1336762127"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382221828496471", "anchor": "fb-382221828496471", "service": "fb", "text": "@Chloe: while I think there is a now connection between high energy and lots of leading there doesn't have to be. Back before there was much of a lead-follow dynamic there were still higher- and lower-energy dancers.", "timestamp": "1336764149"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382225858496068", "anchor": "fb-382225858496068", "service": "fb", "text": "@Cory: people certainly still care about smoothness, giving weight, etc. Not saying otherwise. Also not saying that everyone has the same preferences. I'm saying that leading ability has much more of an effect on how many people want to dance with a given gent than it used to.
As for the ask/answer protocol, I think of that as being part of leading well. Someone who doesn't initiate any variations pretty much doesn't need it because they always do what was called.", "timestamp": "1336764460"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382228801829107", "anchor": "fb-382228801829107", "service": "fb", "text": "@Uma: some dancers do more than that, but that's mostly it. The big thing to me is that the flourishes are planned and initiated by the person dancing the gent's role. My impression is that to get a taste of what it used to be like without \"lead\" and \"follow\" categories, you can look at what happens when two people of the same role meet.", "timestamp": "1336764676"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382233288495325", "anchor": "fb-382233288495325", "service": "fb", "text": "When Jeff says \"what makes a good dancer has changed\" it is useful to start by understanding that \"good dancer\" is so entirely subjective that different people can't really talk about whether a dancer is good before agreeing on what good dancer means.
I disagree with Jeff's opinion that \"what makes a good dancer has changed.\" It's not like tennis or football, where the fact that people are bigger and stronger, or the equipment has changed, means that a person plucked from 1970 couldn't compete on today's field. A good contra dancer from 30 years ago would be able to dance today with no problem, after noting a few changes that are no different from the local distinctions that still exist today.
Re Jeff's ideas about being a good lead and follow in a contra dance, I have a feeling that he is talking about lead/follow skills as in swing dancing, implying that contra dance should be full of improvised figures that are so out-of-the-flow of the called contra dance that a dancer needs to be a good swing dancer to contra dance well these days. I believe that this is the polar opposite of true. I think that dancers who are this \"creative\" are simply a nuisance to their contra dance neighbors.
Re contra dancing being led or followed, that hasn't really changed. Asymmetric figures (like swinging or ladies chain) are led and followed. Figures like star and allemande less so, depending on the following figure and who needs to go where, and whether a lead is helpful from the partner, for placement or momentum.
As for \"what's good,\" I think that many young dancers learn poor basic technique (contra technique? yes, technique) from other young dancers, because they choose to ignore more experienced dancers. When I say technique, I don't mean how to dip. I mean basic technique like swing body position and footwork, how not to drift on an uneven floor, twirl body position and posture, which way to turn on a petronella turn or dosido, and general awareness of space and time.
Many young dancers seem to not really like basic contra dancing, maybe they think the dances are dull as they are written. They might replace dosidos with swings, or fill their dancing with other slop - dips, twirls, reeling their partners out after twirls, veering around without regard to the music, adding speed and force where it doesn't work, and using more speed and force to recover from their torrent of sloppy dancing. They do not see the distinctive elements of choreography in different dances - a dance might call for slow flowing round figures, but they'll use the same messy ideas in those that they always use - a contra dance equivalent of pouring ketchup on all the food you eat.
I'd go so far as to say that most of the ideas that young dancers have about creative dancing don't actually work in a contra dance context. Stuff that works at a swing dance or blues or tango doesn't work in a contra dance, because a contra dancer is part of a set, and has to attend to neighbors, and the dippers and twirlers are usually not in the right place at the right time for their neighbors.
More about basic flow, few new dancers and showy dancers seem to be aware that contra dance figures are connected. They dance like a toddler who has just learned to walk - they stop and start or hesitate or skip between each figure. You might be able to establish a flow between you and your partner that way, but it's annoying to dance near you. It's the contra dance equivalent of burning rubber when a traffic light turns green. It may be fun for you and your friends in your car, but for your neighbors, you are somewhere between a nuisance and a hazard.
I'm not saying that all young dancers are poor dancers. Most dancers, young and old, are easy to dance with. I am saying that where I dance, the 5% of dancers who are the showiest dancers, who think they are the slickest most innovative dancers, and for all I know, maybe the most respected and admired dancers in the Concord Fireplace Clique, I find that those dancers have little sense of the flow or subtlety of contra dance choreography, and I regret that while dancing, I have to spend much of my attention and mental energy to avoid colliding with them as they bounce around the hall with no regard to the flow of the dance around them.
I understand that many dancers either won't agree with me or will dismiss me as a whiner. But some may find truth in my ideas about dancing with your partner, with your neighbors, with the music, with the ideas in the choreography of the particular dance, and choosing to enhance your dancing with creative ideas that work within the natural constraints that make contra dancing different from other kinds of dance.", "timestamp": "1336765057"}, {"author": "Uma", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382233965161924", "anchor": "fb-382233965161924", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jeff: Do you mean like a spin in a men's allemande?", "timestamp": "1336765120"}, {"author": "Rachel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382245025160818", "anchor": "fb-382245025160818", "service": "fb", "text": "to me, good leading is not so different from good following because both are about listening to your partner and communicating with your partner.", "timestamp": "1336766005"}, {"author": "Kelley", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382252111826776", "anchor": "fb-382252111826776", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm with Cory. A good dancer, in my opinion, is someone who understands that a dance is a conversation. A 'lead' will usually initiate a move but it\u2019s as much the 'follow''s choice with good dancers. Flourishes are fun but I'd rather dance with someone who will dance safely and smoothly than lead crazy flourishes. (Of course some of my favorite partners do both). I also lead a lot and do a fair number of flourishes but I try to gauge whether my partner/neighbors would enjoy such things before initiating these and I'm perfectly happy doing a 'normal' swing especially with dancers that I know are really smooth (and I might prefer it with those dancers).
@Andrew- I disagree with most of what you said except I find this interesting.
\u201cMore about basic flow, few new dancers and showy dancers seem to be aware that contra dance figures are connected. They dance like a toddler who has just learned to walk - they stop and start or hesitate or skip between each figure. You might be able to establish a flow between you and your partner that way, but it's annoying to dance near you.\u201d
It might be annoying but it\u2019s the part of a good dance community. This is how a new dancer if going to dance. They will be awkward and screw up and part of being a good dancer, in my opinion, is being understanding of that and trying to help them make it through the dance with as little awkwardness as one can. But they will still screw up and that\u2019s fine. As for showy dancers, I agree that there are some showy dancers that might be annoying to dance near just as there are also slower dancers that are annoying to dance near. Some dancers don\u2019t understand timing or flow or connection whether or not they put in extra stuff. It\u2019s a community with a huge variety of skill levels, and styles and I enjoy that!", "timestamp": "1336766557"}, {"author": "Will", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382275491824438", "anchor": "fb-382275491824438", "service": "fb", "text": "I am strongly not in favor of and discourage the current trend towards describing the traditional men's role as \"lead\" and the traditional women's role as \"follow\" in part because it sets up an expectation, especially for new dancers, about their relative responsibilities in the dance. The only parts of contra dance in my experience that require a \"lead\" are 1) who ends the swing and 2) the courtesy turn. Everything else is of mutual responsibility including and especially twirls. People in the men's role assuming that they are 'leading' twirls frequently results in injuries. The person in the men's role can offer, but it's an offer that needs to be accepted or not. if you dance with a partner you know likes lots of twirls, that great, but don't assume that's true for everyone and in particular, don't make everyone else late trying for 4, 5, 6 twirls. (or to paraphrase the late Larry Jennings, \"twirl all you want, but do it on your own time\")", "timestamp": "1336767745"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382276988490955", "anchor": "fb-382276988490955", "service": "fb", "text": "Kelley, I hear that you disagree with most of what I said, I know many people do.
You might be missing my point about new and showy dancers. I have no problem with new dancers who may be a bit hesitant, they don't tend to be dangerous. The dangerous dancers are the ones (who might be new or not) who want to show off, and their motions tend to be aggressive and with no attention to where they end up.
In essence, my point is that a contra dance set is a shared space. The disruptive dancers are the ones who don't share the space, they just take full ownership of it, like a road-hog, but on the dance floor. The rest of us can choose some path - either, \"oh, isn't that cool\" or \"oh, i'm not walking on the same side of the street as those scary people\" or \"just because you are claiming it all, i do not accept that it is all yours. maybe you should think of a way to bust your moves so that other people can use the sidewalk too.\"
Maybe it makes sense to think of the space and time as an ecological resource. No young person would approve of chopping down a forest or polluting the air. No civilized person would sit at a dinner table and eat all the cookies on a dessert tray. But some contra dancers don't seem to think in terms of the time/space of a dance as a limited resource that we share, and sometimes if you eat more than your share, it means that your neighbors get less, or that they may actually be physically injured.", "timestamp": "1336767848"}, {"author": "Cory", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382285668490087", "anchor": "fb-382285668490087", "service": "fb", "text": "I agree with some of what Andy says, but I also think what he says leaves a lot open to interpretation. When he says \"new dancers\", that makes me think of dancers who've started in the last 1-5yrs and think they are hot stuff, but don't REALLY understand what the dance is all about. Whereas, I think Kelley is interpreting that as \"newbies\", which I see as necessary to the dance and yes, definitely we should allow them their mistakes and encourage them in their dancing. However, I do think its a problem when said \"newbies\" see all the twirling and such get the impression that that is an integral part of the dance. Often, it happens that they try to add all kinds of flourishes to a dance when they don't even know how to do the basics properly. This leads to the type of problem that Andy is talking about. I don't think the solution is to be annoyed at them (although I often am too!) because they will just take that as grumpy dancers being disagreeable and not feel the need to change anything. I think the real solution would be for those in the younger crowd- or those in with them- who actually know how to dance solidly to gently show the newer dancers whats really important in the dance; to teach them to learn the basics solidly before trying to do all kinds of fancy things, so that they don't mess up the dance for all. I'm def not against playing with the dance here and there, throwing in a swing if you're bored with the moves, but, as Andy says, Contra is a community dance, if you're fooling around and having fun, thats great, as long as you're not screwing up someone else's fun by being late or being so \"fancy\" you forget which way you are going.", "timestamp": "1336768519"}, {"author": "Richard", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382307831821204", "anchor": "fb-382307831821204", "service": "fb", "text": "Okay, here come some thoughts from a 68-year-old contra dancer. I know there are wonderful, solid on-time contra dancers who also employ swing dance elements or other lead/follow effects, but much more often I see people doing that, as has been said by Cory and Andrew, without awareness that they're diminishing the dance for those around them. I'll be sad if contra becomes a lead/follow kind of dance as Jeff sees happening, partly because I'm not good at that!, partly because I'd like more equality, partly because even when done *excellently* it can mislead new dancers about what good contra dancing is, but mostly because it changes a communal experience into more of a partner experience. Obviously contra is already about partners in a way, for example, lots of international folk dance is not. But I'd hate to see the balance go way in that direction, and I do notice it in ways other than the lead/follow/improvise phenomenon. For example, when I call a dance with a balance the ring, swing your partner (for example), many dancers will turn it into balance your partner. I've heard contra (and ECD) referred to as \"choral dancing.\" I hope the excitement and beauty of dancing with a minor set, a set, a whole roomful of people feeling united can stay in contra, along with the lovely partner experiences.", "timestamp": "1336770491"}, {"author": "Kelley", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382317441820243", "anchor": "fb-382317441820243", "service": "fb", "text": "Richard, What do you mean by \"partly because I'd like more equality\"?", "timestamp": "1336771445"}, {"author": "Richard", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382322598486394", "anchor": "fb-382322598486394", "service": "fb", "text": "I meant equality between the two people dancing together at that moment--in this context two people, one doing the man's role, on the woman's. In practice, since i don't lead much, a twirl on a ladies chain is just as like to be initiated by the lady I'm dancing with as by me. Or to give a same-sex example, from back when I could dance more energetically, while enjoying a good allemande with a gent we might agree, through a look or increasing hand pressure, to give each other an extra spin coming out of the allemande and, say, arrive in front of our partners just on time for a balance and swing. That's an example of improvisation, but done on a basis of equality and mutual agreement, no leader or follower.", "timestamp": "1336771964"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382331678485486", "anchor": "fb-382331678485486", "service": "fb", "text": "@Uma: a spin in a gents or ladies aleman would be an example, sure.", "timestamp": "1336772822"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382333568485297", "anchor": "fb-382333568485297", "service": "fb", "text": "@Will: \"People in the men's role assuming that they are 'leading' twirls frequently results in injuries. The person in the men's role can offer, but it's an offer that needs to be accepted or not.\"
This is not limited to the courtesy turn. Leading anywhere in the dance is a matter of the lead offering and the follow accepting or rejecting. I agree that the language of 'lead' and 'follow' is confusing. Danner has suggested 'planner' and 'decider', though those might be too verbose to use while teaching.", "timestamp": "1336773021"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382337228484931", "anchor": "fb-382337228484931", "service": "fb", "text": "@Will: \"Everything else is of mutual responsibility including and especially twirls.\"
I agree that responsibility is mutual, but it isn't symmetric. In, say, swing there is also mutual responsibility for many things, but because the lead and gent have different roles and responsibilities it's helpful to describe it as lead-follow.", "timestamp": "1336773417"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1336773559"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382342105151110", "anchor": "fb-382342105151110", "service": "fb", "text": "@Andrew: Part of being good at the lead-follow style of contra dance is understanding what space you have to work with. Consider Greenfield. I would say this style is the dominant one there, with lots of very experienced dancers treating the dance as a lead-follow form. Greenfield is also often quite crowded. It works, though, because people are aware of their use of space and don't make big movements when they don't have room to.", "timestamp": "1336773930"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382348645150456", "anchor": "fb-382348645150456", "service": "fb", "text": "@Andrew: \"so entirely subjective that different people can't really talk about whether a dancer is good before agreeing on what good dancer mean\"
You could say the same thing about, for example, standards of beauty. But it would still be meaningful and accurate to say that being heavy in 17th century Europe was more attractive than it is now. What this means is that consensus views of attractiveness have shifted. [1] Imagine you got each person to list all the dancers in the hall in order of how good they thought they were. [2] These lists wouldn't completely agree, but they would agree to a large extent, and if you combined them into one list that's roughly what we mean when we say a dancer is good or bad. I'm saying that ability to lead well has gone from not even being in the picture to having a large effect on how good most dancers thing most other dancers are.
[1] I don't mean \"consensus\" as in everyone agrees. People vary now in what they find attractive and surely they varied then too.
[2] This would be socially harmful. No one actually do this. Thought experiment.", "timestamp": "1336774632"}, {"author": "Melissa", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382351168483537", "anchor": "fb-382351168483537", "service": "fb", "text": "Realizing this is an aside... Greenfield is pure magic for so many reasons, and the fact that *that* many dancers can fit into *that* small a space, and have so few mid-dance collisions is one of the pieces of that magic. I know that not everyone enjoys the dancing there, for various reasons, but that's part of the result of us all being individuals and not members of the Borg, right? :)", "timestamp": "1336774885"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382352568483397", "anchor": "fb-382352568483397", "service": "fb", "text": "As for subjectivity, you might find that there are two groups of people that have very different senses of what makes people a good dancer. Kind of like if you put a lot of 17th and 21st century europeans in the same room and looked at beauty evaluations. This may be happening here.", "timestamp": "1336775038"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382365208482133", "anchor": "fb-382365208482133", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, what about YOUNGER male dancers who don't want to lead swing dance moves? Am I included in any demographic here? And am I hearing that I am not a \"good dancer\"? I don't mind other people doing swing moves and I'm always happy to follow along when my \"follow\" initiates it (which happens plenty, by the way). I like Andy's and Richard's comments regarding the appreciation for choreography, the concern for the set as a whole, and the much more equal role between the \"ladies\" and the \"gents.\" I always thought of \"lead\" and \"follow\" as terms that were borrowed from other dance forms for the sake of genderless convenience rather than for real accuracy, so after reading your post I find it bizarre that apparently some dancers see this as integral to contra dancing.", "timestamp": "1336776385"}, {"author": "Andrew", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382366988481955", "anchor": "fb-382366988481955", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, I still say that most often, this swing/improv style of dancing does not fit well into the usual contra dance flow. Is it possible to do in a harmonious way? Yes. But *most* dancers who dance that way don't do it well. If you do it well, I should not have to dance around you or even notice anything amiss.
(When I say \"you\" here, I mean a dancer, not you personally.)
Getting back to the of sharing the space. I think most flashy contra dancers, who I think you might call good or fun dancers, don't get this essential idea about dancing with others: To play well with others, you need to be ready for the next figure. Many dancers *don't know what this means.*
If the flashy dancer cares about this at all, they usually think it's sufficient to be done with their fun and games by the beginning of the new figure/phrase. That's just not enough. Besides being done, you and your partner need to be ready, in the right place with the right velocity and momentum and orientation to do the next figure. You can't throw your partner in my path and then say, well, she didn't actually hit you, so you have nothing to be concerned about. Or your dancing may be so erratic that I feel threatened, because I often see you smash into me and others, because you don't pay attention to where you're going. And beyond time and space, you need to be mentally aware of the next figure and what it requires.
If your fancy dip or twirl and stop was so abrupt that your partner is done and her body is moving in vaguely the right direction, but she's literally or figuratively \"blacked out\" because of the sudden deceleration, so that I get to dance with a temporary basket case, that's no fun either. If you're the guy in front of me in a circle of four (we're both active) and you clobber every inactive woman this way just before the progression, it can get pretty annoying pretty fast. This kind of stuff happens *all the time*
It happens in waltzes too. A dancer is waltzing with his partner (and yes, I agree that waltz is a couple dance more than contras are), and the waltz tempo is pretty fast. I'm progressing gently (as always) at the average pace around the hall, and the guy smashes on the brakes to strike some dramatic pose, and I run into him. He has no idea what is going on around him, he is only wrapped up in his partner.
I'm not talking about rare instances. I'm talking about 2-5 couples out of 75 during every dance on every Thursday night. I'm not saying that most people or most young people dance this way. I'm saying that enough people dance this way to be a persistent nuisance.", "timestamp": "1336776596"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382370811814906", "anchor": "fb-382370811814906", "service": "fb", "text": "But maybe I'm completely out of the loop!", "timestamp": "1336776973"}, {"author": "Jennie", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382379691814018", "anchor": "fb-382379691814018", "service": "fb", "text": "I want to point out that unlike contra, waltz has *always* been a lead-follow dance. When you have couples all doing their own things, you're going to get chance interruptions. Yes, in an ideal world, couples who want to waltz quickly will take the \"outside track,\" couples who want to waltz slowly will take the \"inside track,\" and those who want to stop outright or do moves that don't follow the line of dance will go into the doughnut hole in the middle or off to the corners. But even if everyone assiduously dances in the correct \"track,\" the nature of waltz (or any inherently lead-follow dance) is that everyone does their own dance. Contra, conversely, is a community dance. Everyone in the hall is doing the same thing, and you should expect that.", "timestamp": "1336777710"}, {"author": "Emily", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382380741813913", "anchor": "fb-382380741813913", "service": "fb", "text": "I agree with Kelley's point about the dance being a conversation. Sometimes, and with certain partners, that conversation leads to more flourishes than it does with other partners and that's ok.
For me, a \"good dancer\" is someone who pays attention to 1. the dynamic between me and him/her as well as 2. the actual dance and how it fits together and 3. the way the music combines all of those elements to create an atmosphere. It is sometimes just as disruptive for me to be twirled too late so that it makes me late for the next move (and a lot of times the way this is done, it's almost impossible to avoid twirling without hurting yourself) as it is for someone to be trying to swing super ridiculously fast during a slow, bluesy contra. That's just my opinion.
I also find it disruptive that some people who get annoyed with people doing flourishes or being slightly off-time or who have made mistakes or whatever just keep on barging in on moves. I have experienced certain times where, for example, after a partner swing there was a circle, and my partner, for whatever reason, ended a tad late, and the neighboring gent, leading his partner into the circle, just came barging around with seemingly no regard for the other people they were dancing with (in a different way than what Andy said) just so that they could be absolutely on time and perfect themselves. It is those people who don't usually do flourishes, but who will pull or push me to where they think I should be, regardless of whether I'm not on time because I made a mistake, or because i did a flourish that was poorly timed, or even because the way I wanted to be in that move was slightly different. It's especially a problem when they do things like try to pull the circle without having a frame even.
So I also think it needs to be taken into account that there are some people who would complain about the flourishes who are just as disruptive and \"not good\" dancers for others because of their seeming need to dance the dance as it was intended to be. Another mark of a \"good dancer\" is being aware of the people around you and interacting with them so that everyone feels like everyone wants to be there, interacting with everyone else, not making them feel like an obstacle.
Regarding the lead/following question, I think a big part of why a lot of people lean more towards a lead/follow development is precisely because almost all flourishes are \"led\" by the man and \"followed\" by the woman. I dance with a lot of men, almost entirely on the west coast (Seattle, Vancouver) who like it when I spin them and I'm not the \"lead.\" I'd be interested to see what people like Micah, Will, and Eryn would have to say about it. I will say that when I've tried (or asked to try) to spin my men in Boston/MA, many of them say they're not interested and a lot of the ones who are interested can't quite figure out how to tell that that is what I'm initiating with my \"leading\" them to spin.", "timestamp": "1336777840"}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382415185143802", "anchor": "fb-382415185143802", "service": "fb", "text": "Nice Emily, you put into words something that I wanted to say. The dance is an agreement and forgiveness for all of those involved. For those leads that don't like swing moves, but you happened to pick a partner who does? giving a little and showing them that you know how, but would rather not, can be an amazing 'ah ha!' moment, which can serve to alert them that yes, you do know how to dance like that, but showcase that your style has benefits too. Andy and I certainly have our differences in style, but when I see him in line, I make damn sure I'm on time if at all possible ( sometimes I'm braindead, and in that case, I ask for forgiveness :-) ), as part of our (as yet) unspoken agreement to give space to each other's style.", "timestamp": "1336782501"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382417321810255", "anchor": "fb-382417321810255", "service": "fb", "text": "@Jonah: I'm not trying to say what should make people think someone's a good dancer, but describe a shift I think has been happening in what the community as a whole thinks. Different people value different aspects of dance differently, but I do think more people would think you were a better dancer if you started leading these things than would think you were worse. (Though some would think each.) This isn't to say that you should change: I've had a lot of fun dancing with you as you dance now.
This division lines up some with age, but there are definitely older dancers who really enjoy the lead/follow dynamic and younger dancers who aren't interested in it.", "timestamp": "1336782820"}, {"author": "Emily", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382417628476891", "anchor": "fb-382417628476891", "service": "fb", "text": "Jane, I'd be interested in hearing your views on this, since I know this is something we've talked about briefly, though you might not know anyone involved in the discussion as of yet.", "timestamp": "1336782870"}, {"author": "Will", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382546131797374", "anchor": "fb-382546131797374", "service": "fb", "text": "@Emily - as someone who regularly dances the traditional woman's role, twirls decently and have figured out a few ways to put in spins or add flourishes with male partners (who are either don't expect me to know how or are too intimidated or homophobic to try), I would love to learn see what is being developed on the west coast in terms of women spinning men. I'll be in Seattle for two weeks at the end of June and dancing when I can, so I'll be on the lookout!
I noted in my original post that one of my great concerns about even using the terms lead/follow is that it sets an expectation for dancers, and especially new dancers coming in, that contra is a lead-follow dance form like swing or other couple dances. It also reinforces the sexism of traditional male/female roles, though again this is more of a concern for new dancers as the greater contra community is generally one of the most gender role/identity diverse communities/publc groups one could ever hope to come across.
One of the things I most dearly love about contra is that it is for the most part not a lead-follow dance form requiring the lead to be 'on' and continuously taking initiative to make the dance go forward in the way that one must with swing. Yes, with experienced dancers and familiar partners, swing can be much more of a conversation but the lead is still responsible for the initiative.
I love the fact that the contra roles are so NOT lead-follow that it's quite easy to learn to switch roles. I rejoice that there is an ever-growing number of us who enjoy dancing both both roles with any gender partner and even regularly switch roles every other time through the dance just for the extra fun/challenge of it.", "timestamp": "1336795183"}, {"author": "Dragan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382547501797237", "anchor": "fb-382547501797237", "service": "fb", "text": "One aspect of the contra dancing with a lead/follow dynamic that can be frustrating is if you enjoy some embellished dances and also dancing with less flashy dancers often the clique of dancers that tend to be the flashy dancers assume you do not want to twirl if you didn't with your last partner. For me what I do with each partner is going to vary, but I have had partners or neighbors who do not respond to my initiations of embellishments if they have seen me dancing more strictly following the choreography with someone earlier in the night.", "timestamp": "1336795350"}, {"author": "Melissa", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382549178463736", "anchor": "fb-382549178463736", "service": "fb", "text": "There are so many levels in which this discussion is so fascinating, I hardly know where to begin! I'm loving what Emily and Kelley said, and a wee bit confused over the original post in some ways (sorry, Jeff!).
I think that, even speaking as a fairly inveterate twirler, I can appreciate so many different aspects of contradance that it's hard for me to be offended by anything, except, perhaps, the tendency in others to get offended. Sure, it's a community dance experience; but maybe some pair of people are really into the music, and it's carrying them along, and the way that they choose to experience their tranced out state is by doing swing dance moves? Honestly, so long as they don't interrupt the overall flow of the dance, or crash into others, no problem. My experience is that that sort of thing only happens rarely, and even more rarely do I feel that the dancers in question weren't concerned about others in the set. I can enjoy the artistry as much as I can enjoy my own, solid (even boring?) swing experience with a non-swing dancer type; and at the same time, I've certainly been known to indulge in a few rather transcendental, dizzying dances with incredible dancers when I've had the good fortune (looking at you, Bob and Adam, just to name two; though these days my follower's brain is sorely out of practice, sigh).
But does one thing, or another make a person a \"good\" dancer, or a \"bad\" dancer? I'm not sure it's that simple. I'm not sure any of it is that simple.
I know that in my own dance history of, let's see, 18 years? I thought I was terrible. Then I learned a bit, and I thought I knew nothing. Then I thought I knew a bit. Then I learned at a breakneck pace for the rest of the first year, and thought I was \"experienced\" by the end of it. Then I spent a few years unlearning, and relearning *everything*...
And then, finally, I decided that the point was more about dancing with my friends, and not one of twirling more, and faster, and dancing Every Single Dance at all of the dawn dances (did that once, and it was fun! But I don't need to do it again. ;-) ). I think I've mostly stayed in that spot; I'd like to think I know what I know and like, and I have a clue as to what I don't know, and that's good.
Enjoy the dance, people, as you enjoy your life. What you give to it is very similar to what you get back, and that holds for both dancing and living.", "timestamp": "1336795557"}, {"author": "Bob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382605495124771", "anchor": "fb-382605495124771", "service": "fb", "text": "Melissa I am *deeply* honored to have made your \"transcendental\" dancer short-list! I also appreciate your words, \"Enjoy the dance, people, as you enjoy your life.\" Contra, for me, is rich with metaphors of life: the creation of community; cultivating awareness; a sort of Buddhist maintenance of both deep presence with each person you meet - whether \"partner\" or \"neighbor\" - and yet the detachment necessary to let them move on and continue to flit freely within the patterns. All of these metaphors and more express what I (and I suspect others) have found so alluring about it.
Reading this thread has me thinking of a political metaphor. Namely, that when discussing the elements of contra dance people often seem to break down along a rather familiar political spectrum. You have the wild anarchist free types - those who some are naming \"showy\" - and on the other end of the \"political\" spectrum you have the \"old school\" conservatives - those who become \"annoyed\" when any action by another dancer seems to disrupt the pattern. Then you have a myriad of people who fit somewhere in between. When both ends of the spectrum strive to learn and teach the other, when they (and the myriad of other dancers on the spectrum) keep lines of communication open, the community can greatly benefit from the insights each extreme has to offer to the dance. The problem, as in politics, is when the ends of this spectrum become fundamentalist and claim to have the only purchase on the \"truth\" about the dance.
Though I suppose the wild, \"showy\" dancers can become closed down to input and expect that the dance revolve around them, I've often found this fundamentalism far more on the conservative, old-school style. \"Showy\" wild types, I've found, are overwhelmingly open to receiving off-the-dance-floor gently-worded tips on how to have their fun, but also to fit it better into the larger patterns offered by contra. The problem for the conservatives is that this isn't enough. They demand that everyone conform to their understanding of what \"civilized\" dancers should do.
The problem is that, just like life, contra is messy. The choreographed forms might be meant to flow seamlessly together, but when put into practice by an *actual group of people* - who are diverse in their levels of physical coordination, energy level, experience, and also their opinions and motivations for dancing - the original form of the dance often becomes somewhat garbled. But to me, this blurring of the lines is part of what makes contra so beautiful: for the lines may bend, but they do not break: the overall patterns hold together, even if they become less like a well-oiled machine in the process.", "timestamp": "1336804036"}, {"author": "Rick", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382674911784496", "anchor": "fb-382674911784496", "service": "fb", "text": "This discussion (and the dinner table discussion that let to it - I'm Jeff's dad) is fascinating to me. I had not realized that this aspect of contra had grown up over the years. I danced a great deal in the 70s, often 3 times per week, and the aspects of contra that were fun had to do with timing, giving weight, and having a certain energy to your dance. Any extra flourishes were just as likely to be initiated by the woman as the man, and there was not much of a lead-follow aspect to it. I hadn't realized until this discussion started that this had changed. I dance occasionally now, and I suspect my tentativeness about not wanting to be pushy is annoying to partners who are expecting a strong lead. For example, twirling after a lady's chain has become almost the norm, and I enjoy it and usually do it. I always try to judge, though, if this is what my partner wants, particularly if they are my age or older (I'm 56). Sometimes I think my *not* strongly initiating this has surprised my partner. Jonah, if I understand you correctly, I think I am coming from the same place as you in not previously seeing this as a part of the current dance culture.", "timestamp": "1336817713"}, {"author": "Danner", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382735988445055", "anchor": "fb-382735988445055", "service": "fb", "text": "Just a note, I feel showy in new england, but I feel smooth or even drab in the asheville line( missing leaf right now ). So many things effect the dance and it's members. The strongest thing I feel is treating each person I meet individually, and even more exact than that, treating each interaction with them individually. My memory isn't quite good enough to keep a hold of the state of all the dancers, so I ask that you forgive me if I've already offered you a spin that you don't want to do.", "timestamp": "1336827154"}, {"author": "Ralph", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382797525105568", "anchor": "fb-382797525105568", "service": "fb", "text": "Very interesting discussion. Thank you.
Too many have mentioned \"communication\" for me to name you all. I'll take just one flourish and discuss it a bit - the twirl to end the ladies' chain.
I was taught, and accept that it's the lady's choice whether to twirl or not.
I was taught, and expect, the \"hand high/hand low\" signal. If you come to me with your hand low but try to twirl, it shall probably not work because I'm already moving into a courtesy turn. If you come to me with your hand high, I'll probably initiate a twirl. In either case,I will also do my best to not twist your arm if it's not working.
In all cases, though, the gentler move wins the negotiation - meaning that the default is the courtesy turn. Either of us may lower the hand. (Maybe I misunderstood your intent. Maybe I'm just off balance or slightly out of place. Maybe there is simply not time or space to twirl.)
Having said all this, a twirl flows better into a left hand star than does a courtesy turn. Thus, I'm more likely to encourage it then.
I certainly do not begrudge the skilled dancers their flourishes because they execute them in time and, as someone said already, leave everyone in place and moving into the next move. I do little along those lines because I simply lack the skill. I can walk and count to 8, therefore I contradance. I do, however, aspire to be \"a solid platform upon which the lady can dance as she wishes\". My vanilla style also seems particularly helpful to beginners.
[I'm sure you have noted that I use the older (gents/ladies) rather than the newer (leader/follower) form. While maybe not as politically correct, it does rather get away from the whole leader/follower problem, does it not? And, I like to think I can say \"lady\" respectfully rather than in a sexist/belittling way.]", "timestamp": "1336834655"}, {"author": "Ralph", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382832578435396", "anchor": "fb-382832578435396", "service": "fb", "text": "Oh, yeah, to get back to the lady twirling the gentleman.............. I have no philosophical problem with the lady twirling me. Unfortunately, that knee in the brace - it doesn't twirl (nor sashay, nor butterfly whirl for that matter) so, when a lady offers to twirl me, I decline but thank her for the offer. I hope I have never been too forceful in declining but \"that hand just doesn't get lifted\". {As one lady said to me: \"Oh. That's how it's done.\"}", "timestamp": "1336838525"}, {"author": "Dex", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=382912115094109", "anchor": "fb-382912115094109", "service": "fb", "text": "A good dancer is fun to dance with. I am a solid lead and I know my role on the dance floor. The follows that come my way all want something different as they dance. Some want extra twirls and some want to be right on time. Some are unsure of the next move and need to be guided where to go. A good caller will instruct the leads and follows how to lead and how to follow. And in time, that dance community will learn how to lead and follow. A solid follow will let me know what moves she is ready to do. Some let me know that I can improvise from other styles. Others say, \"None of that fancy stuff\". A strong follow can say it through the fingertips. Because Contra Dance is a community event, it is good to know all the dancers in the hall and help them all along on their way to becoming a good lead or good follow. (Booking ahead and dancing only with skilled dancers prevents this growth as a community).", "timestamp": "1336846310"}, {"author": "Adam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=383099165075404", "anchor": "fb-383099165075404", "service": "fb", "text": "I wish I had the time to read every post and respond in a full and thoughtful manner. In short, I like flourishes, I like leading flourishes, but I won't do anything fancy if I cannot be on time. Like anyone, I'm off occasionally, but rarely. I especially value partners who can respond to the lead that I present, but, I can still have a very nice dance with someone who is an average follower (or even a brand new dancer) if they stick to the fundamentals of giving good weight, presence with the dance and a good attitude. With respect to interactions with other men on the dance floor (e.g. allemande gents), I can lead or follow and the same fundamentals apply. There are few things less satisfying than a limp fish allemande or at the other end of the spectrum, the testosterone charged dancer who insists on the allemande (or other move) being a contest.", "timestamp": "1336866154"}, {"author": "Jane", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=383949421657045", "anchor": "fb-383949421657045", "service": "fb", "text": "Thanks for inviting me into the discussion, Emily... it's fascinating. Can't add much. Agree with those, including you, who have said or implied that the dance is about the music, the whole room, the partner. Leads/follows? A two way street. Sometimes I \"backlead\" :) ... These days I'm enjoying fitting my dance style into that of my partner and the people I meet in the line... stretches my head a bit.... a \"plain Jane\" (pun intended) dance or figure is just as much fun as a more showy one...", "timestamp": "1336974517"}, {"author": "Taviy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=386443008074353", "anchor": "fb-386443008074353", "service": "fb", "text": "@Emily - \"Another mark of a \"good dancer\" is being aware of the people around you and interacting with them so that everyone feels like everyone wants to be there, interacting with everyone else, not making them feel like an obstacle.\" Hear, hear!
I'll put it right out there: i DESPISE lead/follow terminology. I creates so many misplaced expectations. Now, i'm all for dismantling the link between gender and dance role, but also prefer the gents/ladies terminology, which i received from my mentors as referencing not gender, but dance role. I think that in whatever way lead/follow infiltrates contra vocabulary, it damages the dance. A flourish can be initiated by either person involved; and there are plenty of moves in which the relation between dancer and motion are swapped (eg Circle R, gents chain, the latter of which is underused because few callers take the time to point out that a gents chain involves a MIRRORING of the courtesy turn). Further cementing an idea in dancers' minds that one role is the \"lead\" puts these moves even farther from the norm, because when a caller does use them ladies unaware that they're leading the move and gents unaware that they're following don't execute them so well.
Ok, so yes, that was a bit strongly phrased. But on the whole, i wonder if there isn't an unconscious synergy between the influence of swing/blues forms on how dancers move and conceptualize their movement and the growing trend to get away from gender-based language. I just hate that lead/follow terminology (and thus potentially applying it conceptually and less flexibly to roles as well as moves) is becoming so common. And in this sense i very much agree with Jeff that the dynamic is changing.", "timestamp": "1337308181"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=386447671407220", "anchor": "fb-386447671407220", "service": "fb", "text": "@Tavi: I'm a fan of strong phrasing.", "timestamp": "1337308832"}, {"author": "Taviy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=386449708073683", "anchor": "fb-386449708073683", "service": "fb", "text": "I know. It's easier to dance to. That's why we get along so well-ish: even when we disagree, we appreciate the other's conviction! If only more discourse were so... badmitten-like. Ok, i'll lay off the wordplay...", "timestamp": "1337309139"}, {"author": "Sarah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=386516284733692", "anchor": "fb-386516284733692", "service": "fb", "text": "I have been happily dancing on both sides of the set for a number of years now (can't really remember when I started dancing the \"gents\" role in addition to the \"ladies\" role but it was probably as a teenager, so ~15 years ago?) and I have always thought of the roles as being more or less equal when it comes to lead/follow. While I certainly know how to do a few \"fancy moves\" out of a swing and I enjoy twirling my partner instead of courtesy turns, for the most part I haven't thought much about myself as being in charge of \"leading\" flourishes etc. when dancing on the left.
More recently, however, I have felt increasingly like I _should_ be doing more complicated \"leading\" because I see other dancers that I respect doing so and I see that their partners enjoy dancing that way and I want my partners to enjoy dancing with me also. There have been times when I feel like I am letting a partner down if I don't/can't lead very specific things, such as an extra twirl or a dip at the end of a swing, and that there is an expectation that if I claim I can lead, it means that I can and will add in extra flourishes. I've actually been thinking about finding someone to teach me specifically how to dip, not because I particularly like it or want to do it for my own sake, but because I think that it would make some of the people I dance with happy if I could do that for/with them. It's important to me, though, that if/when I do add flourishes to my dancing that I do them well and properly so as to not disrupt the basic flow and rhythm of the dance. I would much rather be thought of a a boring but solid dancer who is on time, gives good weight, knows where she's going, is friendly and smiles/laughs a lot, than someone who can do all the hot-new-fancy-pants-flourishes.
BUT - I also suspect that a lot of the pressure I feel is not founded in what my partners actually want but what I THINK they want and that what makes me a good leader/dancer is not how often I lead flourishes but that I am where I need to be on time, I make sure that my partner is also, and that I smile and have a great time doing it. In fact, I think good \"leading\" is as much about helping your partner be where they need to be in space and time to connect with everyone else in the set as it is about the special moments you share between the two of you. When I am \"leading\" I think I pay a lot of attention to my partner's position on the floor, relative to the other dancers and it does feel like my responsibility to help guide them through the dance. Interestingly enough, when I am \"following\" I do not have the reverse sense that my partner is showing me the way, but that I have plenty of agency in making sure I get to where I need to be on my own. Maybe this is \"back-leading\"? Of course, I think that anybody can help guide their partners (and neighbors too) using body language and clear movements to help facilitate transitions between figures. For example, coming out of a courtesy turn and into a star I can leave my hand in contact the wrist of the person I'm turning with and direct it into the star no matter if I'm leading or following.", "timestamp": "1337320257"}, {"author": "Sarah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=386522311399756", "anchor": "fb-386522311399756", "service": "fb", "text": "Oh, I forgot to add that I think some of the pressure I feel to add in more flourishes/twirls comes from the fact that because I identify as a woman and am read as such, I sometimes fear I need to be a \"better leader\" than someone who identifies and is read as male, to prove that I am capable of doing something that is traditionally seen as a \"man's role\". This is, of course, nonsense, because I firmly believe that anyone of any gender can be an awesome \"lead\", but sometimes my brain forgets all the feminism it knows and reverts to male-normative cultural indoctrination.", "timestamp": "1337321506"}, {"author": "Ralph", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/382186591833328?comment_id=386660084719312", "anchor": "fb-386660084719312", "service": "fb", "text": "Thank you Sarah.
Yes, some of the ladies certainly do love all the \"fancy stuff\" when they have a partner who can do it but I once had a lady dance with me after just such a dance and say \"Thank you, this is just what I needed.\" (referring to my quite vanilla style). There is a subset of ladies who prefer not to dance with me because (I hope) they prefer a more exuberant partner and this makes neither of us a bad person. I, and many dancers with whom I've spoken, appreciate that each neighbor or partner is their own person with their own style. I suggest you keep on as you are.
\"....not have the same feeling that my partner is showing me the way....\": It doesn't sound like you need to be shown. That's good. I can enjoy dancing with you without being distracted by a need to show you. OTH, a neighbor who is new/confused/disoriented does get shown where to go next by a point of the finger, a gentle nudge, or a guide through that weight-giving arm.", "timestamp": "1337344576"}]}