{"items": [{"author": "Bob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814204769992", "anchor": "fb-814204769992", "service": "fb", "text": "\"There is basically one ECD band that is a big draw...\". Jeff, i don't think you get around enough in ECD circles to be allowed to say this. at least, i've been around in that genre for almost 40 years, and i've never seen you at a dance, much less a weekend or a week. are they the giants of the field? yes, because they're the Beatles of ECD; a rare confluence of genius in one band, the likes of which has never been seen, and probably never will be again. but there are many, Many other incredible bands/musicians playing in the genre, and the real reasons for the difference in band numbers for contra are (1) contra is much more popular so there are more dances to play for, and (2) contra music is far more accessible than ECD music.", "timestamp": "1474828158"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814204769992&reply_comment_id=814206137252", "anchor": "fb-814204769992_814206137252", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"I've never seen you at a dance, much less a weekend or a week\"
From 2006-2008 I danced ECD weekly. After moving to Boston I went to some evenings (Wednesday at PACC, Friday in Harvard) but mostly stopped. I've been to Pinewoods English week, E&A week, English-Scottish session, and Swing into Summer (half ECD half contra) three times.
I wrote that there is basically only \"one ECD band that is a big draw\", though, and I can't tell whether you disagree?
\"(1) contra is much more popular so there are more dances to play for, and (2) contra music is far more accessible than ECD music.\"
I think changing (2) will improve (1) in a beneficial cycle.", "timestamp": "1474828904"}, {"author": "Bob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814204769992&reply_comment_id=814210827852", "anchor": "fb-814204769992_814210827852", "service": "fb", "text": "→ right, so that experience doesn't equate to the level of familiarity required to make blanket statements. to answer your question: for me and for other ECD enthusiasts, there are a number of both bands and individual musicians that are big draws, yes. i gather you've never heard of Foxfire, Goldcrest, Trio con Brio, Alchemy, etc, etc, just to start on the east coast?", "timestamp": "1474830274"}, {"author": "Bob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814204769992&reply_comment_id=814215653182", "anchor": "fb-814204769992_814215653182", "service": "fb", "text": "→ regardless of whether changing (2) is a good idea, it Is another contributor to the lower number of named bands in ECD, because the shared but challenging repertoire is much more encouraging to impromptu assemblages of experienced players....", "timestamp": "1474831137"}, {"author": "Bob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814204769992&reply_comment_id=814215937612", "anchor": "fb-814204769992_814215937612", "service": "fb", "text": "→ ... and encourages improvisation at a very high level of musicianship (not that that doesn't occur in contra).", "timestamp": "1474831201"}, {"author": "Margaret", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814204769992&reply_comment_id=814420407852", "anchor": "fb-814204769992_814420407852", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Mills, I\u2019ve got a couple of things to say.
One anecdotal instance: a friend (well-regarded and well-known musician in the ECD scene) was playing a dance (might\u2019ve been the Brattleboro Ball, might\u2019ve been something Boston-area, or Lenox Assembly \u2014 I can\u2019t recall) and was told, \u201cYou sound pretty good! I mean, you\u2019re not [the band Jeff was referring to] or anything, but you sound pretty good!\u201d Not that this should matter at all, but said friend is in the 45-65 range, not my age range. I have heard similar sentiments from other people at times. My friend was pretty miffed.
But mostly, I\u2019m uneasy about your telling Jeff he doesn\u2019t get around enough to make statements about ECD. His experience that one band might be exalted above all others is equally valid to yours that many bands are a draw (you\u2019re both people involved in related dance scenes, and though he doesn\u2019t attend ECD events with the frequency that you do, he\u2019s not a novice), and shooting it down based on his not attending dance weekends or weeks that you\u2019ve attended is reminiscent of many of the reasons I don\u2019t attend ECD much anymore. (Maybe Jeff doesn\u2019t attend because the bands aren\u2019t allowed to pick their tunes!)
For ultimate clarity: I don\u2019t necessarily agree with Jeff on this point, but the \u201cyou don\u2019t count because you\u2019re Not X Enough\u201d argument you seem to be straying towards is rubbing me the wrong way.", "timestamp": "1474907011"}, {"author": "Bob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814204769992&reply_comment_id=814443646282", "anchor": "fb-814204769992_814443646282", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Margaret sorry, Mog, the post initially rubbed me the wrong way, so i in turn got pretty miffed, and part of it was that the assumptions -- which i still think unfounded and documented why -- were stated as fact. i agree with you that i was over the top hyperbolic and bordering on insulting about it; that's a personality flaw i've been working on for a lifetime.", "timestamp": "1474914232"}, {"author": "Bob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814204769992&reply_comment_id=814452528482", "anchor": "fb-814204769992_814452528482", "service": "fb", "text": "→ as for the first part, anyone who's spent any significant amount of time on stage has run into a variant of this, some even more insulting (ask me how i know sometime); it is not unique to this situation. the statement that there are no other bands which are draws is what i was reacting to.", "timestamp": "1474917332"}, {"author": "Bob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814204769992&reply_comment_id=814456660202", "anchor": "fb-814204769992_814456660202", "service": "fb", "text": "→ most importantly: i'm sorry i offended you, Mog.", "timestamp": "1474919364"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814204769992&reply_comment_id=814624324202", "anchor": "fb-814204769992_814624324202", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"Foxfire, Goldcrest, Trio con Brio, Alchemy\"
I've danced to at least three of those, maybe all four, and they're wonderful to dance to. Someone who puts on ECD events would have much better information here than I do, but my impression is that having their names on an announcement for an event would have only a small effect on event attendance?", "timestamp": "1474976180"}, {"author": "Bob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814211092322", "anchor": "fb-814211092322", "service": "fb", "text": "i'd be interested to hear what lydia ievins, Rachel Bell, Karen Axelrod, Eric Martin, Paul Oorts, Mary Lea, Jacqueline Schwab, and Kate Barnes think about this.", "timestamp": "1474830533"}, {"author": "Bob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814219844782", "anchor": "fb-814219844782", "service": "fb", "text": "and from the choreography/music end, i'd love to hear what Graham, Robin Hayden, Bruce Hamilton, Paul, Joanna, Gene Murrow, and Adina Gordon think. for starters, it's not like these tunes have ALWAYS been linked to their current respective dances; as i understand it, Cecil Sharp changed some of that around, and i think most now believe it was for the good. but that's a different concept from totally divorcing tune/dance.", "timestamp": "1474832728"}, {"author": "Rachel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814222030402", "anchor": "fb-814222030402", "service": "fb", "text": "I always experienced the 1:1 tune/dance connection as core to the identity of ECD. It's one thing I like - when the dance fits the tune really well, it's a really nice feeling - a way of dancing directly with the music, not just your partners and fellow dancers, which I generally don't find as much in contra. Also what about Swedish polska? There are many tunes for every dance, and the musicians have a lot of say, and the tunes are great, but that hasn't translated to high attendance and a thriving dance community.", "timestamp": "1474833703"}, {"author": "Bob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814222030402&reply_comment_id=814231411602", "anchor": "fb-814222030402_814231411602", "service": "fb", "text": "→ well, hasn't translated *here* and *yet*. ;)", "timestamp": "1474837456"}, {"author": "Graham", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814237454492", "anchor": "fb-814237454492", "service": "fb", "text": "It is not practical to have bands select music for ecd. Yes, there are dances that operate as contra dances do--no signature tune, any duple meter standard length will do---but those are the minority. For the most part, in today's context, figures and tunes are firmly linked. Not any tune will do for Candles in the Dark: it's a waltz. Not for Jovial Beggars: 6 bar a strain. Certain tunes now suggest and imply the figures now powerfully associated with them. If the band selects the tunes, they have selected all the dances, and so---since musicians don't know the dances, we'd have all very-hard dances or all 3 couple sets or other programming gaffes. I agree with Bob that there are many great ecd musicians, whether you know them or not. Both communities respond to great music--but ecd demands variety of meters and figures and formations.", "timestamp": "1474839045"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814237454492&reply_comment_id=814282075072", "anchor": "fb-814237454492_814282075072", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"For the most part, in today's context, figures and tunes are firmly linked.\"
This linkage is mostly a group sense that \"this tune goes with this dance\", and isn't actually required for ECD to work. For example, \"Candles in the Dark\" (as I remember it) would be completely danceable with any 32-bar waltz, not just that one. Jovial Beggars does need a tune with the right sort of A-part, but we could specify this by saying \"four six-bar phrases or whatever\".
\"Certain tunes now suggest and imply the figures now powerfully associated with them\"
By the same token, if everyone is used to hearing the tune played in one specific style and with one set of harmonies, then you can't change that either. There is a kind of enjoyment (only available to long-time dancers) of having a series of experiences linked by the same tune-dance pair, but there's also enjoyment (available to everyone) in novel pairings. I do think losing this is one of the main downsides of letting the bands pick their own favorite tunes to the callers' dances, but on balance I think it's worth it.
(And I wouldn't suggest taking the tune associated with one well-known dance and playing it for a different dance, because that messes up people's associations without much benefit, when there are so many wonderful tunes to choose from that don't have dances.)
\"If the band selects the tunes, they have selected all the dances\"
If you read my post I'm not suggesting that the band pick tunes, and then the caller call the associated dances. I'm suggesting that the caller pick dances, and then the band is free to play either the standard tune or another one they would prefer that fits the dance.
\"variety of meters and figures and formations\"
I see why you're bringing in meters, as we discussed above, but variety of figures and formations doesn't affect the relationship between the caller and band. (And if ECD and contra were identical except for that in ECD there were specific tunes for specific dances and in contra there weren't then it wouldn't make sense to try to push ECD toward the contra norm, since there wouldn't be any of ECD left after making the change. But there are lots of things I like about ECD, and most of those would be unaffected by unlinking tunes and dances.)", "timestamp": "1474848358"}, {"author": "Graham", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814237454492&reply_comment_id=814295777612", "anchor": "fb-814237454492_814295777612", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff, you're gravely misrepresenting the creation and reception of ecd. It's not a group sense that associates figure and tune. It's not arbitrary. It's the work of devisers. In the modern era, dances are written TO and FOR specific tunes. Choreographers mull over a tune for days or weeks, finding or inventing figures that feel right (there are exceptions, when the figures arrive first--but they are exceptions); they write dances that (to them) realize the potential of a specific tune. There is some question of showing respect for the work of choreographers and composers as they give it to us. Imagine saying to Toni Morrison that you really admire Beloved, and you've decided to stage it with all the characters wearing Nixon masks. She would be (I'd guess) offended, and might inform you through a lawyer to cease and desist. We operate mostly on the honor system in folk dance, so you're unlikely to be sued for tune switches, but why show such disrespect in the first place? Any old waltz is not what Loretta had in mind; Jonathan Jensen might well be offended that you'd jettisoned his tune. Not all tunes in the same meter have the same character, not by a long chalk. I don't want to dance News from Tripoly to Cheshire Rounds, or vice versa. You'd like ecd to be just the same as it is now, as long as it is completely different. Even in contra, some dances go better with some tunes (or tune types) than others, reels v. jigs, etc.
My advice? Seek out ecd callers who pick good tunes. Musicians know who they are. I'm a musician; I pick good tunes; there are plenty of other callers who do as well.
I want to alert you to something you've said, but I think you can't see. \"The contra norm.\" Contra is not the norm from which ecd deviates (in fact, it's the descendant of ecd). Contra is not the norm of folk dance or social dance. Contra is not the norm to which all other forms should adhere. In 1800, ecd and Scottish and contra were the same thing: country dance. Now, they are all distinct forms. No one is \"right\" or \"normal.\"
I do appreciate that you've danced ecd, but at the moment, you sound like a contra dancer who basically finds ecd irritating for not being contra. Right, it's not contra: it is different. Difference is not inferiority.", "timestamp": "1474853779"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814237454492&reply_comment_id=814295897372", "anchor": "fb-814237454492_814295897372", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeez are all ECD folks this unfun?", "timestamp": "1474853875"}, {"author": "Bob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814237454492&reply_comment_id=814303207722", "anchor": "fb-814237454492_814303207722", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Ruthan yep, we're a downright nasty crew. you wouldn't like us.", "timestamp": "1474856638"}, {"author": "Bob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814237454492&reply_comment_id=814303651832", "anchor": "fb-814237454492_814303651832", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman \"By the same token, if everyone is used to hearing the tune played in one specific style and with one set of harmonies, then you can't change that either.\" nope, not how it happens; there is Enormous range in style And harmony. arguably a larger range than in contra; listen to some BN records and you'll see what i mean (e.g., Smithy Hill played as a blues).", "timestamp": "1474856948"}, {"author": "Graham", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814237454492&reply_comment_id=814319979112", "anchor": "fb-814237454492_814319979112", "service": "fb", "text": "→ What is unfun about playing or dancing to a designated tune? I don't understand.", "timestamp": "1474861543"}, {"author": "Ron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814237454492&reply_comment_id=814390358072", "anchor": "fb-814237454492_814390358072", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Ruthan I've been to dances Graham has called / attends as a dancer, and the group is fun and welcoming and chill.
I find online discussion of dance choreography to be completely a different thing; it's kind of stuffy by nature.
I like the overall concept of exploring the question, \"can there be more flexibility with tunes for ECD?\", but, Jeff has a habit presenting his solutions and ideas somewhat already rigidly formed. As an organizer, talented musician, and dancer, Jeff has a lot to offer, but this is one where the expertise of ECD veterans (especially those having done it for decades, and especially that calling ECD is *more* difficult than contra) is essential for consideration.", "timestamp": "1474897914"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814237454492&reply_comment_id=814414424842", "anchor": "fb-814237454492_814414424842", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I've had lots of super fun times dancing English - within the structure of the dance. The matching of the tunes to the dance actually makes the dance quite magical.", "timestamp": "1474904588"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814237454492&reply_comment_id=814433277062", "anchor": "fb-814237454492_814433277062", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Graham: \"I want to alert you to something you've said, but I think you can't see. \"The contra norm.\" Contra is not the norm from which ecd deviates \"
I'm sorry, I was ambiguous. I wasn't trying to describe contra as normal and everything else as deviations from it. Instead, I was comparing the contra norm that musicians choose tunes to fit dances with the ECD norm that callers choose tune+dance pairs. Using \"norm\" as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norm_(social)", "timestamp": "1474911097"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1474922921"}, {"author": "Paul", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814265109072", "anchor": "fb-814265109072", "service": "fb", "text": "What Graham said....I second his observation that there is another party to consider--the choreographer. Many specify the tune they want to accompany their work and that more often than not inspired the choreography to begin with. Some, like Colin Hume, write their own tunes to their own dances. It would be unacceptable in my view to disregard their choices.", "timestamp": "1474843625"}, {"author": "Jeremy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814282319582", "anchor": "fb-814282319582", "service": "fb", "text": "I also agree with graham. There are a lot of tunes that even if you know the time signature, basic structure or number of beats, will work really poorly for different dances. I would actually think that it would place more strain on new bands, to try to be able to know these restrictions and think of songs that fit them on the fly. Instead many callers working with newer musicians (or musicians in general) communicate which dances they will probably call in advance. In the U.K. there are some dances that work with pickup bands essentially on your model, and it severely limits the dances that are possible, the quality of the dancing (dancers are often dancing without the musicality that a matching tune provides, through no fault of their own) and by no means a thriving dance community.", "timestamp": "1474848455"}, {"author": "Jeremy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814282319582&reply_comment_id=814283132952", "anchor": "fb-814282319582_814283132952", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I would add that if you are suggesting people write new tunes for specific dances that exist, I'm all for it. I still think this adds additional pressure on new bands, but creating tunes that work would be totally fine in my book.", "timestamp": "1474848766"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814282319582&reply_comment_id=814283527162", "anchor": "fb-814282319582_814283527162", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"I would actually think that it would place more strain on new bands, to try to be able to know these restrictions and think of songs that fit them on the fly.\"
This wouldn't have to be something that each musician figured out on their own. For example, there could be a publicly list of dances along with the tune requirements. So for a straight-ahead 32-bar dance it could be \"any AABB jig or reel\" while for others it would be \"a 24-bar ABC slipjig, like the Butterfly\", and for others it would be \"really only tune X works because it's too unusual\".
The caller would, as they currently do, send out ahead of time a list of likely dances. Then the musicians could check the list against the public list (or their memory) to see which ones they had to work up the specific tune for, and which ones they could use other tunes they had already prepared. So this is still much less prep time than you currently need, assuming you don't want to just come into dances cold and site-read.
\"some dances that work with pickup bands essentially on your model, and it severely limits the dances that are possible, the quality of the dancing\"
But what are you comparing it too? This is a situation where they're pretty limited in what music they have available, right? Where people wouldn't be able to just play whichever tune the caller specified for the dance they had chosen? So the choice for them isn't between what you're used to and their pickup model, but between the pickup model and nothing at all. So a much more thriving dance community than if they stuck to the custom here!", "timestamp": "1474848963"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814282319582&reply_comment_id=814283731752", "anchor": "fb-814282319582_814283731752", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"suggesting people write new tunes for specific dances\"
This doesn't solve what I see as the basic problem with ECD music, which is that it takes an enormous amount of ECD experience before a band can do a good job with it. Each gig for a new band requires working up ~20 tunes, of which ~10 they won't have ever played before. Writing new tunes gets you novelty, but it annoys the dancers who want a specific tune-dance connection without any benefit in lowering barriers for new musicians.", "timestamp": "1474849091"}, {"author": "Rachel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814282319582&reply_comment_id=814287948302", "anchor": "fb-814282319582_814287948302", "service": "fb", "text": "→ but it's more than the specific dance-tune connection. it's also moments where a whoosh in the music matches a whoosh you can whoosh with your body. so a band would have to know the dances REALLY well to pick a good tune.", "timestamp": "1474850503"}, {"author": "Graham", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814282319582&reply_comment_id=814390248292", "anchor": "fb-814282319582_814390248292", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Musicians don't know dances. I know a lot of ecd dancers and musicians--look at my friends list!--and I can name two who are in a band and also call; I can name two more who are in a band and also dance ecd with any regularity. That's four out of a thousand plus known to me personally. The rest haven't touched a dance floor in years or never have at all. Asking a band to come up with another tune that would work perfectly for Companions would be met with blank looks. They don't know the figures or how they feel.", "timestamp": "1474897822"}, {"author": "Jeremy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814282319582&reply_comment_id=814394494782", "anchor": "fb-814282319582_814394494782", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Graham I think many do understand, but you are right, many don't!", "timestamp": "1474900388"}, {"author": "lydia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814282319582&reply_comment_id=814912112472", "anchor": "fb-814282319582_814912112472", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Graham: hey! in my experience, nearly all the best ecd musicians are also great dancers. though i grant you see some of them on the floor less these days. when i teach dance musicians, i _always_ emphasize the need to understand the dancing in order to play better for it.", "timestamp": "1475099785"}, {"author": "Graham", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814282319582&reply_comment_id=814922536582", "anchor": "fb-814282319582_814922536582", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I could name you a musician whom I have never seen dance ever not even once ever. You dance fairly often and well (you are one of my exceptions); most other musicians in ecd dance perhaps annually--not a frequency that makes you fluent or gives you a dancing repertoire.", "timestamp": "1475103388"}, {"author": "Bronwyn", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814290927332", "anchor": "fb-814290927332", "service": "fb", "text": "I think the close connection of the choreography to the music (more than the technical 'fit', also stylistic elements) is what makes English fun, and also what makes it most distinct from contra. I think what you suggest would decrease the appeal of English dancing for me.", "timestamp": "1474851209"}, {"author": "Rachel", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814290927332&reply_comment_id=814290997192", "anchor": "fb-814290927332_814290997192", "service": "fb", "text": "→ ditto", "timestamp": "1474851280"}, {"author": "Jeremy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814290927332&reply_comment_id=814340038912", "anchor": "fb-814290927332_814340038912", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Yep", "timestamp": "1474871193"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1474924057"}, {"author": "Bronwyn", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814290927332&reply_comment_id=814471315832", "anchor": "fb-814290927332_814471315832", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Henry - I was interpreting Jeff Kaufman's proposal, perhaps inaccurately, as more than just \"there might be a small number of tunes that would work for this dance, give the musicians the choice of one of them\" but rather \"any tune of this structure is ok for this dance\". I don't think you have to believe there is _only_ one tune for each ECD dance to think that the latter is not a good idea. I would probably be in favor of the former, though that would still require a lot of communication between the band and caller pre-event.", "timestamp": "1474926137"}, {"author": "Ben", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814299415322", "anchor": "fb-814299415322", "service": "fb", "text": "I think you are severely underestimating the ability of organizers to distinguish a bad program from a bad band", "timestamp": "1474854685"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814299415322&reply_comment_id=814369704462", "anchor": "fb-814299415322_814369704462", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The sort of thing I'm worried about is where the caller picks a dance with a notey tune that needs to go quickly and doesn't sit well on the instruments this band uses. The tune wouldn't be a problem for most bands, and most tunes wouldn't be a problem for this band, but if this band were choosing tunes there is no way they would pick this one.", "timestamp": "1474884842"}, {"author": "Joanna", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814299415322&reply_comment_id=814381949922", "anchor": "fb-814299415322_814381949922", "service": "fb", "text": "→ This is exactly why most ECD programs are delivered to the band ahead of time. This gives the band an opportunity to practice the tunes, independently, or as a group, and the opportunity (and time!) to let the caller know if one of the tunes won't work for them. As a caller, I'm happy to change the program in almost all situations if the band doesn't like the tune or it doesn't work with their instruments, or if it's beyond their abilities. But I can't always intuit that. It's also up to the band to speak up so that the evening works as well musically as possible.", "timestamp": "1474893723"}, {"author": "Ben", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814299415322&reply_comment_id=814394365042", "anchor": "fb-814299415322_814394365042", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Everything Joanna said - callers are happy to work with bands on tunes that a problematic for keys or other reasons. ECD callers tend to be (in my experience) far more musically aware then contra callers.
I think the lack of big-name bands is explained mostly by the economics of touring Contra bands need several well-paying gigs and/or festivals to break even, and weekly ECD dances can't pay enough. However, local communities can come together and go all-in for an annual ball for the region. Also, that fact that ball dances aren't taught (at least in Philly) means the community is really getting about 1.5x the value for the sunk cost of paying for the band to travel - again, not something practical for a weekly dance", "timestamp": "1474900283"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814299415322&reply_comment_id=814414260172", "anchor": "fb-814299415322_814414260172", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think most English balls have afternoon practice sessions with a caller (at least the Baltimore and DC balls do that) but indeed there is no caller during the ball itself. Programs are picked by organizers and not callers. Musicians for balls tend to be very strong in their tunesmanship, but not necessarily well-formed bands like in contra. And sometimes we get out of town bands for balls but rarely for the regular dance.", "timestamp": "1474904503"}, {"author": "Corey", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814307010102", "anchor": "fb-814307010102", "service": "fb", "text": "I've been thinkping about this post a lot, but before I respond more substantively I'm interested in Jeff Kaufman's reasoning behind this proposal, since I don't think he would suggest changing the ECD paradigm just for some musical variety. From your response to Mills earlier, it seems like you used to dance English regularly, but no longer do. Are you saying that ECD has changed in some way to make it less appealing? Do you feel that changing the music but not the dancing, programming, or organizational structure will bring more people to ECD? You mention in your original post 'great music leads to high attendance leads to a thriving and healthy community'. Are you saying that the current state of music at ECD events is sub-par, or just that there is not enough to variety in interpretation? You also write about how in other folk dance disciplines people can learn a smaller number of tunes and exist as a band. I feel that with the Barnes books there's at least an easily available common repertoire that facilitates the ability to be able to play with a wide group of musicians maybe even better than for contra. Are you saying that the difficulty of the music makes for a high barrier to entry to playing for dancers? Is the ultimate goal to see ECD become as popular as contra, or simply to boost numbers?", "timestamp": "1474857788"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1474924440"}, {"author": "Corey", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814307010102&reply_comment_id=814476350742", "anchor": "fb-814307010102_814476350742", "service": "fb", "text": "→ But, that's exactly my point. This implies that ECD is an unhealthy community and that it's lack of great music is what makes it that way. Knowing Jeff, I hope that is not his meaning, so I'm hoping that he will explain a little more of his motivation behind this post, as in, if ECD is currently an unhealthy community, what does a healthy community look like? More young people? More events with higher attendance? I may be in the minority, but musically, choosing between an average contra or English dance, I'll pick English any day. There are lots of definitions of great music and there are great musicians playing for both of these traditions. I think that if you asked the average contra dancer why they don't do English, I don't think that musicians not being able to choose tunes would be the first thing they would say. ECD may have its problems as a community, but I would not list sub-par music as as one of them.", "timestamp": "1474927944"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814307010102&reply_comment_id=814538576042", "anchor": "fb-814307010102_814538576042", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Thanks for the thoughtful response! My primary objection to the current system is the very large barrier it puts to becoming an excellent ECD musician. I think this barrier means ECD is missing out on a lot of wonderful musicians and many of the musicians it does have are not playing as well as they would be if they could focus on a smaller repertoire. A good musician with a classical background can sit down and read from Barnes, but that doesn't get you danceable music on its own.
(I'm not mostly complaining from my own perspective today. I'm reasonably happy playing ECD with the specified tunes, though there are many I would gladly stop playing. My objection is about ECD musician development.)
\"I don't think he would suggest changing the ECD paradigm just for some musical variety\"
Yes, to confirm, this isn't about increasing variety.
\"it seems like you used to dance English regularly, but no longer do. Are you saying that ECD has changed in some way to make it less appealing?\"
I don't dance contra as much as I did then either. At this point I dance maybe once a month, at the dance I help organize, which is a contra dance. And I tend to spend most of the dance running around after Lily!
I don't think ECD has changed over this time period; the musical norms were the same then as far as I can tell.
\"Do you feel that changing the music but not the dancing, programming, or organizational structure will bring more people to ECD?\"
I wrote focusing on music both because I know it better, playing for both contra and ECD, and because I think it's a promising place to focus. I do think ECD has fewer dancers than it would if there was less in the way of becoming an ECD musician.
\"Are you saying that the current state of music at ECD events is sub-par, or just that there is not enough to variety in interpretation?\"
There is a wide range of ECD music, just as there's a wide range of contra music. But if we sat down taking turns naming bands and musicians that would make people say \"I wasn't thinking of dancing tonight, but I want to go out and hear them\" I think there are many more on the contra dance side, and not just by the ratio you would expect for the number of dancers of each. (And in general, a community X-times bigger you should expect to have less than X-times as many top performers.)
\"You also write about how in other folk dance disciplines people can learn a smaller number of tunes and exist as a band. I feel that with the Barnes books there's at least an easily available common repertoire that facilitates the ability to be able to play with a wide group of musicians maybe even better than for contra.\"
There are 800+ tunes in the Barnes books! They're comprehensive and convenient, but for a new band a repertoire of ~40 tunes is much more approachable.
\"Are you saying that the difficulty of the music makes for a high barrier to entry to playing for dancers?\"
Not primarily the difficulty, instead the quantity and that musicians don't get to pick tunes that they think they can do an especially good job with.
\"Is the ultimate goal to see ECD become as popular as contra, or simply to boost numbers?\"
I was thinking more in the number boosting direction. ECD events are more likely to struggle for attendance and financials than contra dances, and more dancers brought in by the music could go a long way.
\"More young people? More events with higher attendance?\"
Both of these would be good! Not the only way of judging community health, but two things to look at.
\"I think that if you asked the average contra dancer why they don't do English, I don't think that musicians not being able to choose tunes would be the first thing they would say.\"
I don't think they would say that the problem is that the bands don't get to choose the tunes, but I do think many would say it's the music. And I think relaxing the this-tune-goes-with-this-dance norm would be good for the musical culture of ECD.", "timestamp": "1474943019"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814307010102&reply_comment_id=814627373092", "anchor": "fb-814307010102_814627373092", "service": "fb", "text": "→ It's a little counterintuitive that lowering the bar of entry would lead to increased quality of music, rather than the opposite. It seems to me that in the current paradigm, any musician who loves English dancing and knows the tradition would not be overly burdened trying to become a dance musician. And under your paradigm any musician who is peripheral to the scene and who doesn't really understand or appreciate the tradition would have a much easier time jumping in. And just like a classical musician sight reading Barnes would not necessarily be playing good English Country Dance Music, neither would a contra dance musician who, just looking for more gigs, jumps in with Reel de Montreal and the Kesh Jig.", "timestamp": "1474978537"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814307010102&reply_comment_id=814630846132", "anchor": "fb-814307010102_814630846132", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"It's a little counterintuitive that lowering the bar of entry would lead to increased quality of music, rather than the opposite.\"
It is a little counterintuitive, but I do think it's how it works. Someone who's a good musican, familiar with the dance form, and doesn't want to spend their whole evening playing things cold needs to put in several times more hours prepping for playing an ECD gig than contra or ceilidh because (a) they need to work up specific tunes at the callers request and (b) some of those tunes will be harder for them than the ones they would choose on their own. I think there are musicans who are very capable, wonderful to dance to, but don't want to put in this much work.
It's especially bad, because its so frontloaded. An experienced ECD musican already is familiar with the repertoire, and doesn't need very much if any per gig prep work, but for newer ones it's pretty big.
\"It seems to me that in the current paradigm, any musician who loves English dancing and knows the tradition would not be overly burdened trying to become a dance musician.\"
Consider musicans who play by ear, not reading music. There are many wonderful musicans who can't read in the contra, square, and ceilidh communities, but ECD musical norms mostly shut them out.
(I don't read, and I deal with this for ECD by playing rhythm, with melody only when the caller asks for a tune I know. In contra I can play a whole evening of tunes I know, and this is not a problem.)
\"And under your paradigm any musician who is peripheral to the scene and who doesn't really understand or appreciate the tradition would have a much easier time jumping in. And just like a classical musician sight reading Barnes would not necessarily be playing good English Country Dance Music, neither would a contra dance musician who, just looking for more gigs, jumps in with Reel de Montreal and the Kesh Jig.\"
Filtering prospective ECD musicans by a combination of their willingness to do a lot of prep work and their ability to sight read isn't terrible, but it does keep out people who could be good ECD musicans in time. Relaxing this doesn't mean booking everyone who asks, though, regardless of ability, experience, attitude, etc! Organizers would then as now exercise judgement in who they booked.", "timestamp": "1474980798"}, {"author": "Corey", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814307010102&reply_comment_id=814640676432", "anchor": "fb-814307010102_814640676432", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I think the problem that you\u2019re addressing is actually the lack of social opportunities to play English dance music, which is true. There are lots of events, whether they are aimed specifically at playing for contra like BIDA open band tune parties, or are useful to the genre, such as Irish or old-time sessions that allow people to build a repertoire outside of preparing for playing a specific dance. There is not much of an English session scene around here that I know of which means that when people learn tunes in a social setting, they are tunes more useful to contra than to English.
I think this is also a problem of supply and demand. Boston and Philly (and Pinewoods for that matter) have large communities of talented musicians and only so many dances to go around, so in those instances it would seem that organizers are not as keen to continue developing talent. On the other hand, I think that you\u2019ll find that in smaller ECD communities they are more welcoming of new musicians and more supportive of open bands because there are fewer options available to them. I would put pressure on organizers to help develop new musicians instead of changing the style in which that music is played.
I agree that there are high barriers to entry for new English musicians, but I don\u2019t really agree with your logic. Yes there are 800+ tunes in Barnes just like there are 800+ tunes in the Portland Collection. That doesn\u2019t mean that most ECD communities have a regular repertoire of 800 dances, and neither does it mean that every contra dance band knows every tune in the Portland Collection. I played an English dance last night and the program was 11 dances. Just as I would not presume to want to play for a contra dance knowing no appropriate tunes for that style, I would hope someone interested in playing for English had been to a few dances, and listened to a few recordings, and knew at least a handful of their favorite tunes. Learning 11 tunes for a dance, especially if you have 4-5 under your belt already doesn\u2019t seem like an insurmountable task.
I also don\u2019t buy that you can\u2019t learn English tunes by ear. There are plenty of beginning contra dance musicians that feel more comfortable reading sheet music instead of learning by ear, so I feel that it goes both ways. If a musician really wanted to play for English and only learned by ear, they should be willing to put in equal preparation time listening to recordings of English music or finding a teacher that can help them, just as they would if they were learning another music style by ear. The only difference, as I mention above, is the lack of a social setting for playing these tunes, which I agree should be remedied.
My proposal is this: There should be open band English dances, with associated tune parties. If the initial repertoire was ~40 tunes (which you mention as an approachable number), you could have a great deal of the common dances called in ECD. From there, musicians would have an introduction to the style, a social opportunity to play these tunes with other musicians, and a good base repertoire to expand into playing for dances.", "timestamp": "1474984794"}, {"author": "Ben", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814307010102&reply_comment_id=814644558652", "anchor": "fb-814307010102_814644558652", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The barrier for ECD is much lower than contra. You get a short set list ahead of time, callers are happy to weed out problematic tunes (with notice), you don't need to put sets together, you don't need to match tunes to dances. You do need to read music - but I would argue that ECD tunes are not particularly challenging, and that a skilled listener would have no problem with the original tune (or they could change the key)", "timestamp": "1474986855"}, {"author": "Bob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814307010102&reply_comment_id=814645681402", "anchor": "fb-814307010102_814645681402", "service": "fb", "text": "→ from 1978-1998 i played ~1500 dances, about 10% of them ECD, including being hired to play for Flurry, high-profile ECD-only dance weekends, and CDSS dance weeks. i did not read music at that time.", "timestamp": "1474987455"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814307010102&reply_comment_id=814652537662", "anchor": "fb-814307010102_814652537662", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Corey: \"There are lots of events, whether they are aimed specifically at playing for contra like BIDA open band tune parties, or are useful to the genre, such as Irish or old-time sessions that allow people to build a repertoire outside of preparing for playing a specific dance. There is not much of an English session scene around here that I know of which means that when people learn tunes in a social setting, they are tunes more useful to contra than to English.\"
But I think this is related to whether the musicians get to pick the tunes for the dances. In social situations people generally want to play tunes that are fun. People sitting around and playing whatever is fun within a genre can build up a repertoire that works with contra, ceilidh, irish sets, etc, but that doesn't work with ECD. With ECD you'd need to be playing tunes that are commonly played for dances. So I think it's not a coincidence that there are fewer opportunities to hang out playing ECD tunes.
\"Yes there are 800+ tunes in Barnes just like there are 800+ tunes in the Portland Collection. That doesn\u2019t mean that most ECD communities have a regular repertoire of 800 dances, and neither does it mean that every contra dance band knows every tune in the Portland Collection.\"
The Portland Collection is (socially) a list of tunes a the band might draw from in deciding what to play for a dance. The Barnes book is (socially) a list of tunes that the band is expected to be able to play any of, with varying amounts of notice. A contra band can have a solid repertoire of 40 tunes, an ECD band can't.
\"Learning 11 tunes for a dance, especially if you have 4-5 under your belt already doesn\u2019t seem like an insurmountable task.\"
Musicians vary a lot in how quickly they can learn tunes. When I was starting to play melody for contra dances learning 11 (or 6-7 if 4-5 we're already known) would have been way beyond what I could do on that timeframe, and an enormous amount of effort to put into one gig. Today I could do it, but it would still be several times as much effort as I'd be used to putting into a gig.
\"I also don\u2019t buy that you can\u2019t learn English tunes by ear. There are plenty of beginning contra dance musicians that feel more comfortable reading sheet music instead of learning by ear, so I feel that it goes both ways. If a musician really wanted to play for English and only learned by ear, they should be willing to put in equal preparation time listening to recordings of English music or finding a teacher that can help them, just as they would if they were learning another music style by ear. The only difference, as I mention above, is the lack of a social setting for playing these tunes, which I agree should be remedied.\"
The remaining difference is, as I've been saying, who gets to pick them. A beginning contra musician, going by ear, can play tunes they know, can pick easier ones, and can work through things as fits their interest. A beginning ECD musician has to play tunes other people choose for them, which might not be good fits for learning next, and might just not be that interesting.", "timestamp": "1474990029"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814307010102&reply_comment_id=814652582572", "anchor": "fb-814307010102_814652582572", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Bob: replied below, where you repeated your comment with more detail.", "timestamp": "1474990056"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1474863729"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814324455142&reply_comment_id=814369734402", "anchor": "fb-814324455142_814369734402", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I suspect the longer you dance ECD the longer your \"as long as\" list will get!", "timestamp": "1474884922"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814385602602", "anchor": "fb-814385602602", "service": "fb", "text": "As a contra dancer who sometimes enjoys English, I realize that contra dancing and English dancing are different, and I am not sure it would be to our benefit to contra-ize ECD. I realize that many contra dancers don't appreciate English because of the following 2 most oft-quoted reasons: a) it's boring and b) no swings. I personally don't feel the need to blend the two types of dance to get something more palatable to the contra dancer's taste, if that is what you are trying to get at. Maybe newer English dance compositions could be more general that you could play any tune to it, but for me the attraction in English is the match of the tunes to the dances. English isn't necessarily going to be high energy and it isn't necessarily meant to be. But I do think it is worth discussing ways for English to be more approachable for contra dancers or even new dancers. Unless there is something else you are saying that I am just not grasping.", "timestamp": "1474896209"}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814385602602&reply_comment_id=814386396012", "anchor": "fb-814385602602_814386396012", "service": "fb", "text": "→ That was one question I had here: What problem are you trying to solve? The contra dance community has a more lively musical culture; and great music leads to high attendance which leads to a a thriving healthy community. Even granting that (which some don't, but hey): Is the ECD community less lively, or lower-attendance, to a problematic extent?", "timestamp": "1474896666"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814385602602&reply_comment_id=814392468842", "anchor": "fb-814385602602_814392468842", "service": "fb", "text": "→ After another reading it seems that the issue is that the caller picks the tunes and sometimes the caller picks bad tunes. I don't think though that's quite right. The caller picks the dances and thus the tunes that go with it. In contra, a caller could pick a bad tune that doesn't quite match with the dance, and that's a legitimate issue. But in English, to say that the caller is picking bad tunes doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. The figures and the tune are one package, so if you don't like the tune then you probably don't like the dance that goes with it either. English dancers probably wouldn't say that those tunes are bad because most veteran ECD dancers know pretty well the dances and the tunes that match. At least in DC and Baltimore, the weekly dances consist not of regular bands like contra but generally a few musicians who know how to play English and play it well. I would not say that these groups of musicians are \"draws\", but I also think that drawing power is less of a motivation for English dancers who go to English dancers than contra dancers who go to contra dances. Certainly if the musicians are not very good then the music won't be good either, but that's definitely not the caller's fault.", "timestamp": "1474898851"}, {"author": "Margaret", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814385602602&reply_comment_id=814416849982", "anchor": "fb-814385602602_814416849982", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Perry there's also the problem of \"great tune, great dance, very technically demanding to play.\"", "timestamp": "1474905768"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814385602602&reply_comment_id=814436296012", "anchor": "fb-814385602602_814436296012", "service": "fb", "text": "→ True - but how does that relate to the issue here? Can you elaborate?", "timestamp": "1474912183"}, {"author": "Margaret", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814385602602&reply_comment_id=814436590422", "anchor": "fb-814385602602_814436590422", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Oh, you wrote, \"But in English, to say that the caller is picking bad tunes doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. The figures and the tune are one package, so if you don't like the tune then you probably don't like the dance that goes with it either.\" A dance can be a good dance and have a tune that can be bad if not played well.", "timestamp": "1474912350"}, {"author": "Margaret", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814385602602&reply_comment_id=814436645312", "anchor": "fb-814385602602_814436645312", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I see them as connected issues.", "timestamp": "1474912368"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814385602602&reply_comment_id=814437279042", "anchor": "fb-814385602602_814437279042", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Indeed - but I was stating the premise that in English the caller picks the tune and therefore should not be picking the tunes if the tune is bad. The caller picks the tunes because the caller is programming the dance, so if the musicians can't play it well, I guess that should be communicated ahead of time between band and caller. I don't call English, but I suspect that English callers and bands have a lot more communication before the dance so a program that the musicians are able to play well can be determined.", "timestamp": "1474912609"}, {"author": "Margaret", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814385602602&reply_comment_id=814437608382", "anchor": "fb-814385602602_814437608382", "service": "fb", "text": "→ You would be surprised, Perry!", "timestamp": "1474912790"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814385602602&reply_comment_id=814437788022", "anchor": "fb-814385602602_814437788022", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Hmm, I think I would be surprised.", "timestamp": "1474912859"}, {"author": "Carol", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814385602602&reply_comment_id=814633121572", "anchor": "fb-814385602602_814633121572", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Perry A lot of advance communication about issues with tunes would be nice - but it's certainly not real-world experience for those of us playing for smaller weekly/monthly dances, and it can lead to some real headaches for all involved.", "timestamp": "1474981544"}, {"author": "lydia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814385602602&reply_comment_id=814912821052", "anchor": "fb-814385602602_814912821052", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Perry: \"I also think that drawing power is less of a motivation for English dancers who go to English dances than contra dancers who go to contra dances\" does not match with my experience.", "timestamp": "1475100248"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814385602602&reply_comment_id=814922097462", "anchor": "fb-814385602602_814922097462", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Ah, interesting.", "timestamp": "1475103081"}, {"author": "Margaret", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814420742182", "anchor": "fb-814420742182", "service": "fb", "text": "Quick reminder to everyone: no one in England at ceilidh dances dances Nottingham Swing to \"Phillibelula All The Way;\" everyone I've talked to thinks it's hilarious that we have only one tune for it. Ceilidh bands pick tunes out of certain types for different dances \u2014 some are step-hop, some are rants, etc. Those bands and callers tend to make it work. So it's not impossible.", "timestamp": "1474907185"}, {"author": "Bronwyn", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814420742182&reply_comment_id=814425527592", "anchor": "fb-814420742182_814425527592", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Something I observed in Scotland a number of years ago is that the informal dances I went to often felt very contra-like in style and approach, whereas more formal dances were definitely also a focus and were much more by-the-book. I wonder if we've split the formality along genre lines more because of the strong presence of contra.", "timestamp": "1474909132"}, {"author": "Margaret", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814420742182&reply_comment_id=814428022592", "anchor": "fb-814420742182_814428022592", "service": "fb", "text": "→ What I find interesting is that the dances have names! Just, the tunes don't matter too much, as long as they fit the dance.", "timestamp": "1474909349"}, {"author": "Bronwyn", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814420742182&reply_comment_id=814428406822", "anchor": "fb-814420742182_814428406822", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Would you expect the dances not to have names? Contra dances have names, too, even though the tunes aren't matched.", "timestamp": "1474909406"}, {"author": "Margaret", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814420742182&reply_comment_id=814429180272", "anchor": "fb-814420742182_814429180272", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Bronwyn hmm, I guess I mean that they're announced by name. Most people at a contra dance wouldn't be able to tell you what a dance is called. But at a ceilidh, many folks will recognize Boston Tea Party.", "timestamp": "1474909779"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814420742182&reply_comment_id=814437079442", "anchor": "fb-814420742182_814437079442", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Hi Mog--I know in our ECD community ceilidh dances are done alongside Playford dances, but I would think that it doesn't really make sense to consider them the same genre, especially for the purposes of this discussion. I don't do a lot of English dancing so maybe I don't know, but does that seem about right to you?", "timestamp": "1474912466"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814420742182&reply_comment_id=814437244112", "anchor": "fb-814420742182_814437244112", "service": "fb", "text": "→ In other words, what you're saying about how ceilidhs are done in England makes a lot of sense to me and probably makes sense with what Jeff is proposing. It doesn't particularly have implications for the rest of ECD though, right?", "timestamp": "1474912560"}, {"author": "Margaret", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814420742182&reply_comment_id=814437543512", "anchor": "fb-814420742182_814437543512", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I agree in part, though I think it's entirely relevant to the conversation that there are some dances in the ECD repertoire that aren't set in stone. I don't, however, think they need to be used as justification for what Jeff is suggesting.", "timestamp": "1474912760"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814420742182&reply_comment_id=814437603392", "anchor": "fb-814420742182_814437603392", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Gotcha. :-)", "timestamp": "1474912789"}, {"author": "Margaret", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814420742182&reply_comment_id=814437658282", "anchor": "fb-814420742182_814437658282", "service": "fb", "text": "→ (I agree that the ceilidh discussion past Nottingham Swing is a derail. My bad for bringing it up.)", "timestamp": "1474912827"}, {"author": "Jonah", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814435043522", "anchor": "fb-814435043522", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff--it's remarkable how such a seemingly simple question is digging really deep into why each of us likes traditional dance and what our assumptions are, so well done. While I love the musical paradigm of the modern contra dance scene both as a dancer and musician, the music community that it has created is one of cultural and musical homogenization that I don't always find to be very fulfilling as a means of cultural or artistic expression. I almost never English dance, but the ways in which I do like and appreciate it would be totally lost if we were to make the transition you propose. I don't know if it's just an American thing, but this notion that contra has to be more like swing, and English has to be more like contra, and that every new thing that someone \"discovers\" has to adapt to be more relatable to the mainstream consumer seems fundamentally flawed to me, and I'm kind of surprised that it's so prevalent in a community of people who at some point must have been drawn to this sort of thing precisely BECAUSE it's different, and dorky, and folky. Jeff, you always come from a thoughtful and sophisticated place so I hope this doesn't caricature what you're saying in any way, but I think it's something we need to talk about in order to answer your question.", "timestamp": "1474911514"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814444554462", "anchor": "fb-814444554462", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff Kaufman, Graham In addition to the choreographers, another set of stakeholders that appears to have mostly been left out in the discussion so far are those dancers who *don't* remember the names of dances, at least not well enough to dance them, but *do* recognize the *tunes* and recall the dances based on the tunes -- which are, according to current convention in the US, played before the teaching for, I assume, exactly this reason/purpose.", "timestamp": "1474914914"}, {"author": "Jean", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814455048432", "anchor": "fb-814455048432", "service": "fb", "text": "A couple of thoughts: 1) there is more than 1 ECD band that people will travel to dance to. The One Band has a huge profile but it has company. 2) the \"sight-reading requirement\" is a barrier to entry into ECD playing for some bands & musicians, & the model could profitably change. 3) subbing tunes would work with some dances but not with a lot of other ones, for reasons articulated above.", "timestamp": "1474918582"}, {"author": "Jenny", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814457104312", "anchor": "fb-814457104312", "service": "fb", "text": "Wow, Jeff, some hot button you pushed here! I agree with all of your many unfun stuffy ECD interlocutors. A few more points: 1) a modern ECD dance usually becomes popular because of its tune, not mainly because of its choreography 2) Oh yes, I've got quite a list of tunes that I would gladly have musicians swap out for something else, but alas it can be politically risky to do that. 3) I plan programs around variety in meter and key and mood and the skill/instrumentation of the band. When musicans change those without warning me (grrr), it makes the program a duller experience. 4) You could take the opposite perspective and say that ECD programs give musicians an enjoyable chance to expand their abilities by trying very different tunes and styles. 5) The core question is WHO is the dance event for -- the musicians who want to groove to their favorite tunes, or the dancers who are seeking a particular kind of dance experience? It's nice to get both, but I think dancers get priority over musicians, callers, choreographers, composers.", "timestamp": "1474919724"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1474925094"}, {"author": "Jenny", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814457104312&reply_comment_id=814475816812", "anchor": "fb-814457104312_814475816812", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Henry, if I wrote my personal list of dances that I think have blah tunes or where choreography and tune don't fit, we'd start a flame war here :-) There are times when people don't know an old dance very well that you can get away with it.", "timestamp": "1474927651"}, {"author": "Jenny", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814457104312&reply_comment_id=814476036372", "anchor": "fb-814457104312_814476036372", "service": "fb", "text": "→ And sometimes I suggest that musicians select / write a similar tune to substitute, but as of yet, no one has taken me up on it.", "timestamp": "1474927728"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1474924866"}, {"author": "unknown", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ unknown", "timestamp": "-1"}, {"author": "Kitty", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814468516442&reply_comment_id=814481270882", "anchor": "fb-814468516442_814481270882", "service": "fb", "text": "→ OH NO YOU SAID IT AHHHHHHHH", "timestamp": "1474929143"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1474984983"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814468516442&reply_comment_id=814750311722", "anchor": "fb-814468516442_814750311722", "service": "fb", "text": "→ http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/.../revision/latest...", "timestamp": "1475030548"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814469304862", "anchor": "fb-814469304862", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, I agree with many of the comments above, that you are going too far. Nevertheless, this discussion leads me to believe that there is the possibility of further evolution of English Country Dance music, maybe making some progress towards the goals that you have identified.
I remember the stories I heard about when Bare Necessities came on the scene, and about how they took the music to a new higher level that previous ECD musicians had not done, and everyone loved it, and everyone still loves BN. But BN still played the tune expected for a particular English dance. They changed the way that they played it, definitely for the better, but it was still the same tune. That was evolution, not revolution.
You mentioned in your post that, for Scottish dancing, the musicians are told which tune to start and end with, but they can change the tune in the middle. I was not aware of this. This would appear to be against the rules for ECD. But BN effectively does this, in that they introduce such variations and harmonies in the music as they are playing, it might as well be a different tune. I would invite ECD musicians to try switching to a different tune for the middle of a dance, with due consideration to how this other tune works with the dance, and with permission from the caller of course, and see how the crowd reacts. This will test the waters, in a small way, for the types of changes you propose. Maybe it will succeed, or maybe it will fail. If it succeeds, let it happen more, and then try more small steps. Evolution, not revolution.", "timestamp": "1474925129"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814469304862&reply_comment_id=814512533232", "anchor": "fb-814469304862_814512533232", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \"or Scottish dancing, the musicians are told which tune to start and end with, but they can change the tune in the middle\"
The most common music pattern for Scottish in the US is to play four-tune sets that start and end with the \"title tune\", the tune that has the same name as the dance. Additionally, you normally play the tunes 1-2-3-4-2-3-4-1 changing tunes each time through the dance. I have a different set of complaints about this kind of musical restriction, but annoying one dance community at a time is probably enough.", "timestamp": "1474937118"}, {"author": "Kitty", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814481380662", "anchor": "fb-814481380662", "service": "fb", "text": "I've admittedly only skimmed this discussion, but would it be possible for organizers to get callers and bands in touch with each other before a dance so they could discuss possible programs? i realize that adds potentially unpaid time to all the parties involved but perhaps everyone could discuss strengths and weaknesses of various dances and tunes for the band and caller and together choose a program that will compliment both?", "timestamp": "1474929268"}, {"author": "Kitty", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814481380662&reply_comment_id=814481435552", "anchor": "fb-814481380662_814481435552", "service": "fb", "text": "→ that said I do know that you can't always plot out a program and have it work, sometimes there' more new comers than you expected at a dance or the energy is different etc. but just a thought", "timestamp": "1474929302"}, {"author": "Jean", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814481380662&reply_comment_id=814481764892", "anchor": "fb-814481380662_814481764892", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Some of 'em do. And nearly all callers say \"Let me know if any of these tunes don't work for you for any reason.\"", "timestamp": "1474929541"}, {"author": "Carol", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814481380662&reply_comment_id=814633361092", "anchor": "fb-814481380662_814633361092", "service": "fb", "text": "→ At one group for which I used to play, it was typical to get a program list 5-7 days before the dance, with a healthy handful of alternates. This (in theory) allowed some flexibility for the caller in case of having a highly experienced crowd or a bunch of new people. In practice? Anything in Barnes is fair game at a moment's notice. Some local musicians are up for that challenge, but many are not.", "timestamp": "1474981704"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814481380662&reply_comment_id=814650811122", "anchor": "fb-814481380662_814650811122", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Jean: \"Let me know if any of these tunes don't work for you for any reason.\"
As a musician, I'm not sure it's ok for me to say \"I'd rather not play that tune because it's not a good fit for our style\" or \"because I don't know how to make it sound like dancing\". I have enough trouble saying \"because I don't think I can play it well enough\" especially if it's a tune lots of other ECD musicians play readily.", "timestamp": "1474989358"}, {"author": "Max", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814481380662&reply_comment_id=814661794112", "anchor": "fb-814481380662_814661794112", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman FWIW I have told ECD callers all of those things, particularly the last one, including to Miriam this weekend. I have always been well-received. It took me a while to TRULY trust that, yes, the caller is on my side. They don't want crappy music either, it turns out! Of course, it is nice to give them a little advance notice. (Alternatively, I have been known to use the old \"Maybe it would be nice to have the violin play a set solo. Like hey maybe this unintuitive 3/2 piece in Eb minor....)", "timestamp": "1474994167"}, {"author": "Miriam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814481380662&reply_comment_id=814667427822", "anchor": "fb-814481380662_814667427822", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Oh yes, I'd much rather hear those things than have musicians silently thinking them! I try to always ask if the musicians if they have any issues with the tune, for practical reasons or if they just don't like them. And I try to remember preferences, too--there are some dances I know not to program with a particular musicians. But timing matters--if I sent a set list days/weeks early and find out five minutes before the dance that a tune's not a good fit, I may stick with it anyway, or pull a \"here's an alternative out of Barnes that wasn't on the set list, it's one or the other.\"", "timestamp": "1474996241"}, {"author": "Miriam", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814481380662&reply_comment_id=814670047572", "anchor": "fb-814481380662_814670047572", "service": "fb", "text": "→ And I also keep a mental list of both \"ECD with tunes contra musicians probably know\" and \"super-accessible ECD tunes I can throw at most musicians with no warning.\"", "timestamp": "1474997198"}, {"author": "Miranda", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814481380662&reply_comment_id=814670092482", "anchor": "fb-814481380662_814670092482", "service": "fb", "text": "→ To confirm what Max and Miriam have said, I've been in bands that vetoed tunes and have always been thanked by callers for looking at things in advance and making the call. Usually it's been a decision on the basis of not sounding good on our particular set of instruments. I'm sure this would happen even more often but the callers I work with most often consider the band when programming.", "timestamp": "1474997235"}, {"author": "Dan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814481650122", "anchor": "fb-814481650122", "service": "fb", "text": "A couple things occurred to me as I weighed a lot of what's already been said (I want to say yes!!! to caller/band communication/planning and yes to a joy of ECD being the integration of music and motion in a specific way).
1. There are a few dances that have been associated with more than one tune (things like Take a Dance/Ore Boggy, or modern dances like Lovers Knot or Heather Towers where one tune eventually replaced another as the favored one), but the choice of tune isn't indiscriminate. That said, I could envision a fun evening that included some fairly simple 32-bar AABB structured dances and used contra-style medleys and maybe got some feedback from dancers about possible alternate tunes. That might open up the repertoire a bit but in a way that reflected the core question of does the dance work well with this tune.
This strikes me as not all that different from what you note with contra callers, who do sometimes request particular moods and flavors of music to accompany certain dances (moody jigs, driving reels, stompy etc.).
2. I've enjoyed (and would enjoy here) hearing from musicians about what would make the experience of playing more English more welcoming, fun, and encouraging for them. Part of it has been alluded to\u2014the inevitable comparisons with the \"top\" musicians. And it's worth noting that a number of the bands that Bob mentioned above share a number of overlapping musicians, so while there are a number of bands, the musicians seen as \"draws\" (or even, as I've heard complained, \"understanding\" ECD) are certainly fewer than the contra scene, and likely face more intense scrutiny. So another part of it may be the daunting need to develop not only certain skills of reading and improvising, but also the need to convey a variety of moods and registers throughout an evening. I'm in favor of thinking about how musicians can best gain the experience and comfort with ECD's needs, be shielded somewhat from unrealistic expectations of mastering it overnight to compete at that top level, and provide an enjoyable experience for the floor.", "timestamp": "1474929440"}, {"author": "Margaret", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814481650122&reply_comment_id=814485706992", "anchor": "fb-814481650122_814485706992", "service": "fb", "text": "→ \" I'm in favor of thinking about how musicians can best gain the experience and comfort with ECD's needs, be shielded somewhat from unrealistic expectations of mastering it overnight to compete at that top level, and provide an enjoyable experience for the floor.\"
WELL SAID!", "timestamp": "1474930724"}, {"author": "Max", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814481650122&reply_comment_id=814662397902", "anchor": "fb-814481650122_814662397902", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Mastering the form overnight is one of the great misconceptions of ECD, for sure.
1) As you say, it is nice if callers identify their musicians as ones that could take advantage of some dances without assigned tunes and programming that in.
2) Sitting in with experienced ECD folks and being given a safety net is awesome.
3) It is helpful for contra-experienced musicians to remind them that the goal (usually) is fun dance music and they probably already know how to watch dancers and get the right feel.", "timestamp": "1474994563"}, {"author": "Max", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814481650122&reply_comment_id=814662517662", "anchor": "fb-814481650122_814662517662", "service": "fb", "text": "→ 4) Similarly, I think it is totally fine if choreographers don't have a strong opinion of which tune they want paired with their dance. (Although I obviously love a good pairing.)", "timestamp": "1474994625"}, {"author": "Bethany", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814485382642", "anchor": "fb-814485382642", "service": "fb", "text": "i haven't played much for (or danced much) ECD, so take this with a grain of salt, but i thought the tune/dance pairings was kind of the point... this ain't no disco!", "timestamp": "1474930633"}, {"author": "Bethany", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814485382642&reply_comment_id=814485731942", "anchor": "fb-814485382642_814485731942", "service": "fb", "text": "→ plus, if you're looking for switch tunes you'd better know all the ECD \"hits\" backwards and forwards before venturing off. in which case, you wouldn''t need to go looking for tunes... my two cents", "timestamp": "1474930743"}, {"author": "Carol", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814634428952", "anchor": "fb-814634428952", "service": "fb", "text": "One of the things I've noticed -- a lot of people seem to desire that an ECD band sound as \"folksy\" and tight as a contra dance band, yet ECD tends to draw musicians with completely opposite backgrounds from what we get at contra. Yes, contra musicians are (mostly) dealing with shared rep, but many of them are also used to primarily playing/arranging by ear and can throw things together (with improvisation!) on the fly.
ECD, because of the volume of rep, the styles involved, and the necessity of changing the program to fit the dancers, almost takes for granted that the musicians will be sight-readers (again, at least at the local-dance level). Sight-readers = classical background = less likely to be spontaneous and improvisatory until very experienced at playing at a high level.
The classically-trained sight-reading musicians good enough to do make wild arrangements and improvise on the fly generally want more $ than small ECD events can afford. And/or we don't seek them out/ know how to approach them as readily? Just musing here, but I really think that emphasis on reading vs. ears is a lot of this. I know musicians who could be great players of ECD but are intimidated as all getout because they aren't readers and don't feel confident/comfortable in that environment.", "timestamp": "1474982289"}, {"author": "Bob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814646270222", "anchor": "fb-814646270222", "service": "fb", "text": "from 1978-1998 i played ~1500 dances, about 10% of them ECD, including being hired to play for Flurry, high-profile ECD-only dance weekends, and CDSS dance weeks. i did not read music at that time. [reposted from waaaaaay above in this stringy-long thread, and to counter the notion that you have to be a strong reader to have a prominent role in ECD music]", "timestamp": "1474987726"}, {"author": "Bob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814646270222&reply_comment_id=814648156442", "anchor": "fb-814646270222_814648156442", "service": "fb", "text": "→ i was playing melody.", "timestamp": "1474988357"}, {"author": "Bob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814646270222&reply_comment_id=814649199352", "anchor": "fb-814646270222_814649199352", "service": "fb", "text": "→ the dangers -- for either of us -- of a demographic sampling of 1.", "timestamp": "1474988704"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814646270222&reply_comment_id=814650032682", "anchor": "fb-814646270222_814650032682", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Bob: How did you deal with situations where the caller said \"I know I didn't put X on my program, but it would be a great fit for this slot -- it's on p Y of Barnes II\"? Did you just apologise and say you couldn't? Or did this not happen because all the requests for X were common tunes you were already familiar with?", "timestamp": "1474989082"}, {"author": "Margaret", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814646270222&reply_comment_id=814651330082", "anchor": "fb-814646270222_814651330082", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff Kaufman right, isn't that a frustration you've run into before? I seem to recall you saying something along these lines.", "timestamp": "1474989617"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814646270222&reply_comment_id=814653470792", "anchor": "fb-814646270222_814653470792", "service": "fb", "text": "→ @Bob: My first reaction to reading your comment is being very impressed by your musical ability. I do think that if we require this level of ability from by-ear musicians, though, that we're missing out on a lot of people who would be excellent but just aren't that good in that particular way.
(Also, I wonder if the expectations in 1978 might have been lower? I wasn't around then, but it sounds like it might have been a more forgiving time? Especially since the Barnes books didn't exist yet, so a caller couldn't count on even able sight readers to play arbitrary tunes on no notice in response to program changes.)", "timestamp": "1474990283"}, {"author": "Bob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814646270222&reply_comment_id=814656579562", "anchor": "fb-814646270222_814656579562", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Jeff, in answer to your first q, as noted in your last: Barnes didn't exist then. it was a matter of knowing the material, from having danced it and played it for a long time, or being able to fake it 'til you make it (i used to learn tunes quickly by necessity because i couldn't read; it absolutely is a skill you can hone if success depends on it).", "timestamp": "1474991602"}, {"author": "Bob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814646270222&reply_comment_id=814656789142", "anchor": "fb-814646270222_814656789142", "service": "fb", "text": "→ in answer to your 2nd q, i gather you never played for, or danced to, Fried de Metz Herman. she, like May Gadd and others of the old guard, did not suffer fools gladly. in short: no, i certainly do not think the standards were lower.", "timestamp": "1474991804"}, {"author": "opted out", "source_link": "#", "anchor": "unknown", "service": "unknown", "text": "→ this user has requested that their comments not be shown here", "timestamp": "1475110700"}, {"author": "Bob", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814646270222&reply_comment_id=814938993602", "anchor": "fb-814646270222_814938993602", "service": "fb", "text": "→ i was an exception in the non-reading domain; most people carried Mountains of books of myriad shapes and sizes. it was seriously out of control, which is why Peter did the Barnes blue", "timestamp": "1475112317"}, {"author": "Amy", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814660716272", "anchor": "fb-814660716272", "service": "fb", "text": "One element that has been touched on here is the accessibility of ECD to new musicians (either in general, or to the scene). It seems like that's what you'd like to see changed, Jeff? I don't think the difficulty or format of music are the barriers to entry. Rather I believe it is the attitude/expectation that new musicians must sound like established bands and/or be well known as \"good ECD musicians\". I absolutely love playing for ECD just the way it is, but it has been a giant hassle in getting organizers to book me because in all my moving around no community has endorsed me as \"a good ECD musician\". I approach playing for ECD and contra as two separate entities, which I love for different reasons. Though since I am better known for playing for contra, organizers have hesitated (even to the point of not booking me) for ECD. I can think of two communities which openly accepted me without hesitation, to which I am extremely grateful. These communities allowed me to grow as a musician and grow to love playing for ECD. However, at this point, I have virtually given up trying to get booked since the massive effort required is just not worth it.", "timestamp": "1474993699"}, {"author": "Margaret", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814660716272&reply_comment_id=814665855972", "anchor": "fb-814660716272_814665855972", "service": "fb", "text": "→ I can think of a particular ECD community that actively creates barriers for folks wanting to play. (Not my local one.)", "timestamp": "1474995336"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814660716272&reply_comment_id=814666569542", "anchor": "fb-814660716272_814666569542", "service": "fb", "text": "→ This is actually somewhat of a pet peeve of mine for contra dancer organizers too. We seem to favor \"better\" musicians vs. those that are newer, but how do you get any better if you don't play for dances? Same for callers. I understand the need to draw, but a good community dance should be fostering talent in the area and helping them get better, and I'd like dancers and organizers to support them as much as the big draws.", "timestamp": "1474995869"}, {"author": "Margaret", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814660716272&reply_comment_id=814666824032", "anchor": "fb-814660716272_814666824032", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Perry my local ECD community has occasional open band nights. Not sure that that actively results in new musicians, but it's something, and I think it's a great idea.", "timestamp": "1474995974"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814660716272&reply_comment_id=814667078522", "anchor": "fb-814660716272_814667078522", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Baltimore has such a band as well.", "timestamp": "1474996056"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814660716272&reply_comment_id=814750810722", "anchor": "fb-814660716272_814750810722", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Amen, Amy.", "timestamp": "1475030895"}, {"author": "Christopher", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814660716272&reply_comment_id=814861848202", "anchor": "fb-814660716272_814861848202", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Observations about risk, from personal and community perspectives:
I have the potentially controversial opinion that open bands are great for giving people initial exposure as a dance musician (while not being risky from the community perspective), but don't force new musicians to take personal risks, and therefore actually grow enough to become confident enough to play a dance on their own. I think that mentorship is a potentially necessary in between step, as it allows new musicians the chance to take musical risks, but with the support of an experienced musician. Even with mentorship, however, it is still necessary for communities to accept the risk of unknown musicians to allow their general musician supply to grow and flourish.
Communities tendency to avoid new musicians is about their unwillingness to accept the risk of unknown, even at the cost to their future musician supply. Different communities accept different levels of risk; contra communities tend to be more willing to accept new and unknown bands than ECD communities. <controversial statement>In general it seems to me that ECD communities broadly tend to be less interested in thinking about the risks they need to take to grow their community in the future, and more interested in maintaining their experience the way they remember it.</controversial statement>", "timestamp": "1475080698"}, {"author": "Robert", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814660716272&reply_comment_id=815023678892", "anchor": "fb-814660716272_815023678892", "service": "fb", "text": "→ The ECD series that I help run (the gender-free dance in Jamaica Plain [Boston]) has made a virtue of necessity: We're such a small dance that we can't afford to pay our musicians, which has led to recruiting some musicians with comparatively little ECD experience who wanted an opportunity to get more of it (along with a fair number of experienced musicians who enjoy it so much that they're willing to play for free). We've been pretty happy with the results.", "timestamp": "1475159224"}, {"author": "Max", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814666155372", "anchor": "fb-814666155372", "service": "fb", "text": "FWIW My experiences as a musician, which touches on some other folks' observations....
Learning ECD music has been one of the great, surprising musical joys of my life. It has helped me grow as a musician, in variety, improvisation, exploring the choreography-music connection, and (yes, whew) sight-reading.
MY EPIPHANY
The epiphany for me was learning -- as Joanna notes -- how TOTALLY OK it is to tell a caller you'd rather not play X tune, for whatever reason (playability, taste, etc.). In fact, I have a list I send to callers of my favorites that I would LOVE to play. The availability of that collaboration could be advertised more widely.
ACCESSIBILITY
Rather than being a barrier, I've seen having sheet music available actually makes the music MORE accessible, at least to folks who read music. That is not everyone but is MANY people, e.g. all people who studied classical music at some point. Learning by ear and reading music are both skills which take time to develop. In contra, having to know 10-30 danceable fiddle tunes of appropriate variety (reels, jigs, marches, waltzes) is a barrier, too.
REPERTOIRE
Many dances are done frequently. Using the same tunes for the dances actually provides for a shared repertoire than contra. At an English dance, musicians who haven't played together before don't have to struggle to find repertoire! You don't have default to the lowest common denominator. (None of that, \"Well, we can't think of anything, so let's do Tam Lin for this one then, uh, Flying Home to Shelley and Frank's Reel. Nothing against those great tunes, but contra dance musicians you know we've been there.)
It is a different repertoire than contra dance; I would suggest this is like learning a new genre. (It's not as if I would want a French session to have Irish tunes because more people know them.)
SO....
It seems to me that there are many strengths for the current model. Some of these took me a while to see, so it is probably true they could be more widely advertised. On the other hand, I am also all for innovation and perhaps conversations like these can give us a chance to reflect on innovations we would like pursue.
In sum, I guess for me, ENGLISH COUNTRY DANCING IS AWESOME!", "timestamp": "1474995564"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814666155372&reply_comment_id=814909697312", "anchor": "fb-814666155372_814909697312", "service": "fb", "text": "→ Well said, Max!", "timestamp": "1475098675"}, {"author": "lydia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814915156372", "anchor": "fb-814915156372", "service": "fb", "text": "wow, thanks to so many of you for thoughtful and articulate contributions. having just read through the whole winding thread, i find the disparity that is gripping me is: where exactly are you finding all these ECD gigs that need all these new musicians? especially if you feel the scene is sparse? i don't mean that in a \"so all y'all just go home\" kind of way, i am genuinely curious where you see these opportunities coming from. there just _aren't_ that many ECD events, compared to how many contras there are in the Valley or in Boston. does your evolutionary model entail creating entirely new events/series?", "timestamp": "1475101248"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=814952825882", "anchor": "fb-814952825882", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, I just want to mention that this dichotomy between dances that require particular tunes and dances that can be danced to any tune in the right meter goes back at least to the 16th century -- I'd be surprised if it didn't go back as far as we have dance manuals and dance music, but I'm not sufficiently familiar with 15th century dance to make that statement (and the three sources from the 15th century may not be varied enough to show the answer).", "timestamp": "1475119162"}, {"author": "John", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/814198547462?comment_id=815026313612", "anchor": "fb-815026313612", "service": "fb", "text": "One of the things that really helps cultivate new ECD musicians is the existence the two Barnes books.", "timestamp": "1475160326"}]}