{"items": [{"author": "Sean", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/107270646379592003271", "anchor": "gp-1316542746147", "service": "gp", "text": "On the one hand, I totally agree with you, especially the last paragraph. On the other, I can't help but immediately reversing this, and asking if there is anything useful in the concept of femininity. A question which will probably result in the same conclusion.", "timestamp": 1316542746}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1316543896541", "service": "gp", "text": "@Sean\n : I was thinking about masculinity in this post, but I don't see any reason that it wouldn't apply either way.", "timestamp": 1316543896}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1316543924636", "service": "gp", "text": "I'm not sure what your final question here really means. If you take characteristics described as \"masculine\", and you remove (a) silly social stuff; (b) traits that are actually general traits (i.e. either virtuous or vicious in both male and female persons); then what would you expect to have left?\n
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\nIs your question more like \"are there any virtues or vices that we should legitimately think of in that way only for male persons, and think of differently for female persons\"?", "timestamp": 1316543924}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/217609841632047?comment_id=217646578295040", "anchor": "fb-217646578295040", "service": "fb", "text": "Long answer. Skip to the bottom for the summation. I once did a \"presentation\" (UU service led by a lay person) on gender differentiation. If you want to read the whole thing, message me with your email. Some of the points: 1) Besides the _very_ obvious, there are differences between genders, although many are culturally developed. 2) There is a wide spectrum of physical and intellectual capabilities in both men and women. It is very difficult to differentiate between genders intellectually. And one must get to the highest levels of athletics -- Boston Marathon, Olympics -- to see the minimal difference in physical capabilities. Athletics are a cram course in life -- teamwork, individual effort, victory, defeat. Title 9 is a huge step forward for our society. In primitive societies, women were far too useful to keep suppressed. 3) Humans are among the most dimorphic species on earth -- di, two, morph, shape. Women, who are the primary selectors in heterosexual relationships, like big men and reproduce with them. ON AVERAGE. (Skip the rant. Dimorphism is very real.) 4) Technology replaces physical strength. Women fight in combat units in Israel. 5) Economically, gender-based capabilities are irrelevant in most jobs. The inequality is a culturally persistent discrimination against women. I believe that the only reason our standard of living has not totally tanked in the face of global competition, is the entry of women into the workplace over the last two generations. Many households have more than one income. Women obviously bear children, and are still the primary caregiver. Our society has yet to accomplish an economic compensation for this greatest gender differentiation. 7) Women are obviously capable of aggression. There was the period in the 70\u2019s when the only extant wars were being led by women: Margaret Thatcher, Indira Gandhi and Golda Meir. Yet most restraining orders are taken out against men. So, masculinity would appear to be a cultural concept associated with confidence, protectiveness, and dominance -- which, of course, pop up in a lot of women. Useful? Each of us will decide.", "timestamp": "1316546152"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/217609841632047?comment_id=217656038294094", "anchor": "fb-217656038294094", "service": "fb", "text": "@Walker: not disagreeing, but quibbling: \"one must get to the highest levels of athletics -- Boston Marathon, Olympics -- to see the minimal difference in physical capabilities.\"
I think I must be misunderstanding you. I would expect 100 arbitrarily fit 25 year old men to have a lower average time to run some distance than 100 equally fit 25 year old women.", "timestamp": "1316547422"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1316547745477", "service": "gp", "text": "@Josh\n I'm not sure if I should expect to have anything left. Perhaps this comes down to \"is it beneficial to have gender roles?\".", "timestamp": 1316547745}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/217609841632047?comment_id=217661911626840", "anchor": "fb-217661911626840", "service": "fb", "text": "Both genders may be represented in a Gaussian distribution of capabilities. My point is that the distribution is so wide that the difference between the averages, or peaks of the distributions is difficult to perceive, except at the high end of the distributions _or_ in a large statistical sample. My guess is that you have described an adequately large statistical sample to show the difference.", "timestamp": "1316548249"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/217609841632047?comment_id=217669261626105", "anchor": "fb-217669261626105", "service": "fb", "text": "@Walker: Sure. My quibble was that I don't think you have to go all the way to marathoners and olimpians to find measurable differences in physical ability between the sexes.", "timestamp": "1316549338"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/217609841632047?comment_id=217677418291956", "anchor": "fb-217677418291956", "service": "fb", "text": "Indeed a quibble relative to the question of societal usefulness of masculinity.", "timestamp": "1316550513"}, {"author": "Julia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/217609841632047?comment_id=217729344953430", "anchor": "fb-217729344953430", "service": "fb", "text": "Are you just saying this to impress girls?", "timestamp": "1316559026"}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1316560276535", "service": "gp", "text": "Jeff: That sounds right to me. (And my answer is \"no\", at least when it comes to virtues and vices, and probably more broadly.)", "timestamp": 1316560276}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/217609841632047?comment_id=217738978285800", "anchor": "fb-217738978285800", "service": "fb", "text": "@Julia: quibbling to impress? You've figured out my mating strategy!", "timestamp": "1316561019"}, {"author": "Mac", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/217609841632047?comment_id=217810751611956", "anchor": "fb-217810751611956", "service": "fb", "text": "You have just witnessed what geekiness does to serious discourse. :)", "timestamp": "1316573573"}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112947709146257842066", "anchor": "gp-1316652024906", "service": "gp", "text": "I agree that most of the obviously positive traits that are considered masculine would be better thought of as good traits for humanity in general. It's not as clear to me that none of the other secondary characteristics should be tied to the concept. For example, the idea that men are less open with their emotions is certainly \ndescriptively\n useful. As long as those kinds of correlations do exist, regardless of what the causation is, there's going to be linguistic value to the concept, right?", "timestamp": 1316652024}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1316675226142", "service": "gp", "text": "Sure; I think you can say that, descriptively, men tend to have more upper body strength than women, and you could then call upper body strength a \"masculine\" trait. But it would seem odd to call it a \"virtue\", and wrong to say that a male person who happens not to have a lot of upper body strength, for whatever reason, isn't a \"real man\", especially in a normatively critical way.", "timestamp": 1316675226}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1316700115966", "service": "gp", "text": "Another way of putting it is that I can't see anything useful in statements like \"you should do X because you are a man\". Which extends to \"man up\" and \"real men X\".", "timestamp": 1316700115}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1316701505083", "service": "gp", "text": "I'll buy that; how far do you take it? Are phrases like \"don't be a dick\" and \"you're such a pussy\" no good, because they're gender-specific? What about bowdlerizations, like \"dork\" and \"wuss\"? Is \"don't be an asshole\" ok, because assholes are like opinions? :^)", "timestamp": 1316701505}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112947709146257842066", "anchor": "gp-1316701903321", "service": "gp", "text": "I think at that point it's just a question of how much vulgarity you prefer.\n
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\nAnyway, I agree that there's not much value to claims regarding real manhood unless you're an athletic coach =P", "timestamp": 1316701903}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1316702437913", "service": "gp", "text": "@Josh\n I think maybe it depends on whether \"don't be a dick\" means \"you are male and so this behavior is not ok\".", "timestamp": 1316702437}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1316702926377", "service": "gp", "text": "I don't think it means that; but I do think it associates male anatomy with bad behavior. The feminine side is easier: Is saying \"don't be such a girl\" ok? Does it depend on whether the person you're talking to is male or female?\n
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\n(I feel like \"come on, be a man\" is similar, but since it's encouraging you to do a positive thing, it's usually only said to men -- and not necessarily because they're male, but just because the speaker wants them to be strong/tough/brave/whatever, and \"like a man\" is the way they think about and/or express that. Also, I have known women who used phrases like \"I've been procrastinating about this, but just need to man up and do it\", but that seems rare and slightly off (linguistically) to me.)", "timestamp": 1316702926}, {"author": "Todd", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/112947709146257842066", "anchor": "gp-1321065301596", "service": "gp", "text": "I got a sandwich at Jimmy John's the other day. The cashier asked if I wanted bacon added to it, and I said yes. He responded that I was a real man.", "timestamp": 1321065301}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/103013777355236494008", "anchor": "gp-1321074115498", "service": "gp", "text": "@Todd\n A very powerful sales tactic.", "timestamp": 1321074115}, {"author": "Josh", "source_link": "https://plus.google.com/118273920476267337216", "anchor": "gp-1321680870236", "service": "gp", "text": "I just saw this link, and was reminded of this post: \nhttp://sexisnottheenemy.tumblr.com/post/12974272905", "timestamp": 1321680870}]}