{"items": [{"author": "Sasha", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=693965879692", "anchor": "fb-693965879692", "service": "fb", "text": "A point of style - citing a popular blog post which cites an academic paper (halfway down!) which coins the term you use is offputting. I like Scott's writing on the whole, but I don't like the way he seems to be becoming some sort of messianic rationalist figure, and giving him implicit credit for the ideas of an obscure academic doesn't help.
On your main point, I definitely agree. I've given up vegetarianism while jobhunting in part because doing so is saving me money - but I would exclude the 'more environmentally sustainable' bit from the paraphrase, a) because I think you get that benefit with either type of veganism and b) because judging by your discussion, you don't seem to either.
It seems like the claim should be 'go vegan! it's more environmentally sustainable - and either cheaper or healthier!'", "timestamp": "1414341951"}, {"author": "Jillian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=693966558332", "anchor": "fb-693966558332", "service": "fb", "text": "I would say that at a minimum, the options are (a) more expensive, (b) more work, or (c) less nutritious. If you're already making complicated meals all the time, maybe going vegan isn't in fact a big change. But there's not really a good vegan equivalent to \"I will just fry an egg now\".", "timestamp": "1414342445"}, {"author": "Jillian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=693966992462", "anchor": "fb-693966992462", "service": "fb", "text": "Jacy -- what are they? As a vegetarian I would love to eat them!", "timestamp": "1414342776"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=693967012422", "anchor": "fb-693967012422", "service": "fb", "text": "@Sasha: \"A point of style - citing a popular blog post which cites an academic paper (halfway down!) which coins the term you use is offputting. I like Scott's writing on the whole, but I don't like the way he seems to be becoming some sort of messianic rationalist figure, and giving him implicit credit for the ideas of an obscure academic doesn't help.\"
I considered linking to the original source for the term, but I didn't think the explanation there was as good. Similarly if I wanted to write about replaceability I would link to a popularization, probably 80k, and not Tomasik or Beckstead.", "timestamp": "1414342784"}, {"author": "Danny", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=693968294852", "anchor": "fb-693968294852", "service": "fb", "text": "I second the motion that \"I will fry an egg\" is just about as convenient as making a meal can be. I'm not sure I buy the idea that meat needs a substitute one way or the other. If someone can link me to an instance of actual real world vegans with protein deficiencies, I'm always happy to stand corrected. But the way I understand it the balancing act needed to get protein from plant sources is conventional wisdom that, like a lot of conventional wisdom, is wrong. I'm a pescatarian, so I can't speak from personal experience about getting protein without animal sources but I'm sure that the challenge of doing so is at least overblown if not completely imaginary.", "timestamp": "1414343451"}, {"author": "Jillian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=693969437562", "anchor": "fb-693969437562", "service": "fb", "text": "I have a good friend who's vegan and hasn't had problems with protein, but did get severely vitamin D-deficient at one point. Which is not to say that that's going to happen to everyone, just that a little bit more planning is required.", "timestamp": "1414344216"}, {"author": "Elizabeth", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=693980051292", "anchor": "fb-693980051292", "service": "fb", "text": "And then there's iron.", "timestamp": "1414348997"}, {"author": "Yaron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=693983424532", "anchor": "fb-693983424532", "service": "fb", "text": "\"If you're willing to accept less taste and variety, you can go with beans\": There are various different kinds of beans w/ different flavors/textures, and more broadly, lots of different legumes with various kinds of culinary and nutritive properties, not to mention different ways that you can cook/spice them (and you don't have to be a master chef to do that).
\" there's not really a good vegan equivalent to 'I will just fry an egg now'\": Cook up some quinoa. (Added advantage: Doesn't require oil or butter.)", "timestamp": "1414350323"}, {"author": "Eva", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=693990834682", "anchor": "fb-693990834682", "service": "fb", "text": "This is a function of projection bias. Tastes change. We know tastes change, because nobody starts out liking coffee as a baby. Most people are familiar with tastes changing when they switch between 2% milk and skim. So what makes veg food special, that it would not be subject to the same forces? You can also see this with substitutes being more useful to the new veg; once people have been veg for a while, they seem to eat less of the fake meats.
What options exist is a function of what one knows and is used to. There was this analogy in an old book I read which said that by the time people are thinking of going veg, they've filled up a box with non-veg recipes that they know and like. When they start being veg, they start with an empty box. So of course it looks barren, but that's because they haven't been filling that box over time and tweaking it. There is a switching cost, but that's a temporary thing.", "timestamp": "1414354411"}, {"author": "Jillian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=693991258832", "anchor": "fb-693991258832", "service": "fb", "text": "Disadvantages of quinoa vs. eggs: cost per calorie is much higher, and I bet quinoa takes longer than 5 minutes. I'll give you the lack of oil or butter, but I'm not sure those are actually advantages -- you need to get fat from somewhere.", "timestamp": "1414354644"}, {"author": "Cecile", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=694006293702", "anchor": "fb-694006293702", "service": "fb", "text": "Well if you're not attached to a hot meal, it's hard to get anything that's faster than nuts and dried fruit, which I would argue is also better balanced than a fried egg...", "timestamp": "1414362266"}, {"author": "Yaron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=694054227642", "anchor": "fb-694054227642", "service": "fb", "text": "Re cooking quinoa: Yes, probably >5min, but not by much, 10min tops.
Re cost of quinoa: Well, original point re fried eggs was not about cost, it was that it makes a fast light meal. But in any case, quinoa is very cheap if you buy in bulk from the right vendors, which aren't hard to find. (Much more expensive in small bags at most mainstream supermarkets.)
Btw. similar deal for legumes. You walk into an Indian grocery store, and chances are you find an aisle of all sorts of legumes, often with really big bags at low prices. (You'd have to go elsewhere for quinoa - it's not an Indian thing.)
Btw. orange lentils also cook very fast (probably longer than quinoa, but not by much) and are super nutritive.
Now, you could argue that Cecile's idea of nuts and dried fruits is definitely more expensive; that ties into social/political issues and food equality issues, of which the subsidies that Chloe mentions are one aspect. Good healthy food remaining out of reach for the poor, and the poor being encouraged/pushed towards relatively unhealthy diets.
Re oil/butter/\"need to get fat from somewhere\": Most people in the US, veg or non-veg, get enough fat in their diet - in fact, most get more than enough - most people in the US should have a goal of reducing their fat intake (in a healthy way, which fad diets generally are not), not increasing their fat intake.", "timestamp": "1414392506"}, {"author": "Yaron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=694054307482", "anchor": "fb-694054307482", "service": "fb", "text": "btw. Most people in the US, in their day-to-day eating habits, don't eat that big a variety of types of meat - maybe 3 or 4 different types - what creates the variety is the preparation/presentation. Same for veg.", "timestamp": "1414392619"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=694058494092", "anchor": "fb-694058494092", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm confused by the egg/quinoa discussion. If you fry an egg that's something you can just eat, while quinoa isn't something people eat on its own is it? Eating plain quinoa is like eating plain rice, no?", "timestamp": "1414403772"}, {"author": "Buck", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=694058673732", "anchor": "fb-694058673732", "service": "fb", "text": "Eating quinoa on its own is slightly better than eating rice on its own, I find, but not much.", "timestamp": "1414404077"}, {"author": "Jillian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=694060440192", "anchor": "fb-694060440192", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff -- we went to a Peruvian restaurant this summer and were surprised when they gave us quinoa with a side of rice. I think Americans think of quinoa as a side dish, but in its native land, they apparently think of quinoa more as a bean-type main dish.", "timestamp": "1414407349"}, {"author": "Jillian", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=694060530012", "anchor": "fb-694060530012", "service": "fb", "text": "Yaron: my original point about fried eggs was that they were fast, ridiculously cheap, and high in protein and other nutrients. I don't think you get to tell me what my original point is. Eggs are about 25 cents/90 calories, which is hard to beat.
If I (vegetarian) cut dairy from my diet, my fats would all come from added oil, because as you say, nuts are expensive.
My options for cheap quinoa are probably (1) the internet, and (2) trips to other neighborhoods with the kinds of grocery stores you describe.", "timestamp": "1414407482"}, {"author": "Wandika", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=694064686682", "anchor": "fb-694064686682", "service": "fb", "text": "Dear daughter (age 15) switched from vegetarian to vegan last winter. We ended up with a CHOP nutritionist who specializes in vegan teens after she basically put herself into menopause symptoms. Yes, it's more complicated. And just as expensive as meat between plant protein powder, super charged vitamins and a few other speciality items. ($2.69 each plant protein bars). I sure wish she'd eat an egg and a little dairy and fish. (won't even touch eggs that come from chickens who are practically pets).
On the plus side? We eat a lot more beans and yummy grains. And I think beans are tasty so I don't mind. Fast food? Not in our vocabulary anymore.
I have recently splurged and joined the Rancho Gordo Bean Club and and am looking forward to seeing if fresher beans means an even better bean experience!
Nuts are chapter at the discount store, ALDI , Jillian
I wish I was better at preparing vegetables. I had a 3 vegetable dinner at one of the Peace Food Cafes in NYC last summer and the vegetables were yummier than I have prepared at home.", "timestamp": "1414412194"}, {"author": "Wandika", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=694064826402", "anchor": "fb-694064826402", "service": "fb", "text": "Here is what we had for dinner yesterday. It was pretty tasty for a slow cooker meal. And there was plenty to freeze for later. Adding a little cilantro or lime juice before serving brightens it up too.
http://www.food.com/.../caribbean-coconut-black-beans-in...", "timestamp": "1414412394"}, {"author": "Wandika", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=694064851352", "anchor": "fb-694064851352", "service": "fb", "text": "Oh and as a bean lover I'd say it's a great idea to get a pressure cooker. They're pretty cheap and beans are yummier.", "timestamp": "1414412455"}, {"author": "Chris", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=694066797452", "anchor": "fb-694066797452", "service": "fb", "text": "Here's a vegan option that's more convenient than \"I think I'll fry an egg\": \"I think I'll dip some pita in Hummus\"
If I'm feeling especially un-lazy I'll put the pita in a toaster oven for 30 seconds first.
In terms of making it *as tasty* as meat, it's a matter of making it yourself and knowing a few key spices that really make the flavors pop.", "timestamp": "1414413733"}, {"author": "Frederic", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=694074526962", "anchor": "fb-694074526962", "service": "fb", "text": "I think that most vegans switch over because of animal cruelty issues, not because of cost(?!) or deliciousness. Health and sustainability I do hear, but they're generally secondary.", "timestamp": "1414419792"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=694075425162", "anchor": "fb-694075425162", "service": "fb", "text": "@Frederic: Animal cruelty is an excellent reason to be vegan. But vegans do often talk about cost, especially when mocking people who switch away from veganism because of cost. Some quotes from a recent fb thread:
\"Normal people, with normal eating and spending habits, switch to save - animals, their health - and MONEY ! How is that pricey? It is not vegan that is pricey, it is stupidity. For which animals pay the ultimate cost.\"
\"I cook for my entire vegan family, we eat healthy, we buy fresh,for sure we don't eat only pasta and bread - it is a well balanced variety with tons of fruits and veggies - and it is just my husband and me with our very AVERAGE salaries, I wonder how we do it?\"
\"I know, right? I mean, I saw a bag of beans at the store the other day and it was TWO DOLLARS! Outrageous! ><\"
\"I think it is pure math - NOT eating animal products is SUBTRACTION, you buy less and pay for less\"
\"LOL.. Yah Vegan food is just so expensive.. fruit, vegetables, grains, legumes, leafy greens, tempeh , nuts... How can anyone afford to eat those things?... Oh wait... everyone eats those things... Now back for him to eat animal body parts and stuff that comes out of them.. so much more tasty and inexpensive... UGH... So absurd!\"
\"I would go vegan but I can't afford rice and vegetables.\"", "timestamp": "1414420340"}, {"author": "Frederic", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=694075689632", "anchor": "fb-694075689632", "service": "fb", "text": "Don't take the quality of the comments on your facebook threads as representative of the quality of the comments on other facebook threads.", "timestamp": "1414420568"}, {"author": "Frederic", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=694076063882", "anchor": "fb-694076063882", "service": "fb", "text": "I mean, there's not really much point in engaging with terrible arguments unless they're advanced in a legitimate forum. A waste of time and it makes it look like you're taking on straw men.", "timestamp": "1414420842"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=694076163682", "anchor": "fb-694076163682", "service": "fb", "text": "@Frederic: What should we do about bad arguments that are popular in a community and mostly used in 1-on-1 conversations?", "timestamp": "1414420952"}, {"author": "Frederic", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=694076328352", "anchor": "fb-694076328352", "service": "fb", "text": "Presumably they're drawing on some kind of published source, so you go after the source.", "timestamp": "1414421089"}, {"author": "Frederic", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=694076408192", "anchor": "fb-694076408192", "service": "fb", "text": "Or even if they're not directly drawing from a source, you should be able to find an expression of the argument in print somewhere if it's that widespread, and then you can go up against that.", "timestamp": "1414421151"}, {"author": "Yaron", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/693958798882?comment_id=694077151702", "anchor": "fb-694077151702", "service": "fb", "text": "I do eat quinoa by itself on occasion (when I really just want a quick small meal - not as regular sustenance - same role that a fried egg would play, at least for me), and I wasn't aware of the Peruvian thing, and I'm not even really veg (I'm \"mostly pescovegetarian\"). I eat quinoa by itself (maybe sprinkled with some spices) b/c it takes half as long as hardboiling an egg and isn't as messy as frying an egg. My other go-to for a quick small meal is a can of sardines, but that doesn't fill me up as much as the quinoa that I would make.
I do believe there are people who should not be vegan, for various physiological reasons. But more often when someone goes vegan and consequently gets sick, it seems to be b/c they took a subtractive approach - cutting out the non-veg stuff out of their diet (and subsequently having to either re-add it or substitute it with supplements) - instead of a transformational approach - reformulating your relationship with food and your eating habits. Yes, it takes time and takes getting used to.
Another point: I'm going to go out on a limb and claim that what I said about oils/fats also applies to calories, so a cost/calorie comparison is not the most useful measure.
Another point: A meat&potatoes diet, in itself, is not very balanced. Neither is a rice&beans diet, in itself. In both cases it needs to be balanced out with fruits, vegetables, etc., preferably fresh, preferably organic, preferably local (for various reasons). And that's where the typical US day-to-day diet lacks, and it's the same for both veg and non-veg people (vegs may be more aware of this issue due to the diet awareness they've developed as part of going vegan) - and that's where things start getting expensive, and where food inequality issues kick in. Yes, it's more expensive to eat a healthier diet with lots of fresh-bought produce.", "timestamp": "1414421894"}]}