{"items": [{"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653523506532", "anchor": "fb-653523506532", "service": "fb", "text": "Am I reading correctly that you counted 14 discrete trombonists, or is this like 2 trombonists with 7 gigs apiece?", "timestamp": "1396151121"}, {"author": "Amelia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653524095352", "anchor": "fb-653524095352", "service": "fb", "text": "the answer is yes, and it applies to all genres in various ways.", "timestamp": "1396151600"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653526535462", "anchor": "fb-653526535462", "service": "fb", "text": "@Ruthan: \"is this like 2 trombonists with 7 gigs apiece?\"
That one. 8 weekends for Elixir with Nils, and 3 each for Alex and Michael Ferguson of Giant Robot Dance.", "timestamp": "1396153533"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653595492272", "anchor": "fb-653595492272", "service": "fb", "text": "I see several problems with your data, although rephrasing the question could solve several of them.
a) small sample size - greatly affected by single performers. For example, there used to be two women bass players in the Boston area, and Stu Kenney used to not travel out here as much, although at the time Cal was playing out a lot more, but not so much on Thursdays. Similarly, when Mary Lea gave up the Monday dance, that affected their stats for fiddle players a LOT.
b) Popularity of individual players & bands skews the data. For example, before Anna Patton & Elixir & The Figments got very popular, and Bill Tomczak moved away, and Jim Guiness died, clarinet would have shown up as overwhelmingly a male instrument, no matter whether you had sampled the Monday dance or the Thursday dance, and no matter whether you looked at festivals or local dances, and no matter whether you counted musicians or performance slots. The change says nothing about cultural attitudes, just about specific musicians.
c) I think a more robust study would look at the genders of *players*, rather than performance slots, and attempt to view the data over time, to see changes. Granted, it would be more difficult to conduct.
All that said, I agree with Amelia.", "timestamp": "1396187481"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653610532132", "anchor": "fb-653610532132", "service": "fb", "text": "I like Michael's idea of looking at numbers over time, but I'd be hesitant to flatten away the difference between, e.g., a super-popular female accordionist who does ten local gigs a year and a male clarinetist who comes up from Oklahoma, plays one night, and is never heard from again.", "timestamp": "1396198641"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653612732722", "anchor": "fb-653612732722", "service": "fb", "text": "Ruthan: I agree that popularity is important, I just think that it's a separate, though related, issue. I think that popularity is largely independent of gender, more related to musical style and ability. At least, unless we can somehow compensate for the latter effect, we can't judge the former effect.", "timestamp": "1396200154"}, {"author": "Michael", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653612787612", "anchor": "fb-653612787612", "service": "fb", "text": "Does popularity correlate with the distance the musicians travel? I would expect so, but can think of exceptions.", "timestamp": "1396200205"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653620023112", "anchor": "fb-653620023112", "service": "fb", "text": "Michael: with the small sample I think we can mostly just say: (a) more contra musicians are male, (b) this effect is stronger at the national touring level, (c) fiddle isn't that gendered, and (d) piano is mostly played by women.", "timestamp": "1396206903"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653620512132", "anchor": "fb-653620512132", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, have you read any ethnomusicology papers on this topic or related topics? Because this gendering you are seeking to identify is a near-universal phenomenon in essentially every area of folk music, or so my ethnomusicology professor s.o. tells me.", "timestamp": "1396207363"}, {"author": "Amelia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653621445262", "anchor": "fb-653621445262", "service": "fb", "text": "amend that to EVERY area of music, period.", "timestamp": "1396207970"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653623047052", "anchor": "fb-653623047052", "service": "fb", "text": "David: could you expand on \"this\"? Do you mean \"in any given musical culture there are probably male and female instruments\", \" the particular pattern you found here, more male musicians, more female piano players, holds cross culturally\", or something else?", "timestamp": "1396209280"}, {"author": "Angela", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653625302532", "anchor": "fb-653625302532", "service": "fb", "text": "Am I wrong in thinking that this data is affected greatly by the fact that there are more male musicians than there are female? Shouldn't the data be curved to replicate a world where there are the same number of male and female musicians? It just seems that if the same percentage of all women contra musicians plays fiddle, for example, as does that of male musicians, than the instrument shouldn't be considered \"gendered.\"", "timestamp": "1396210578"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653625731672", "anchor": "fb-653625731672", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, what I mean is that instruments, and performance of any kind (vocal, dance) are highly gendered in pretty much every kind of traditional music. So it would be unsurprising if it is true of contra dance.", "timestamp": "1396211045"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653626185762", "anchor": "fb-653626185762", "service": "fb", "text": "For example - and she could tell you better about her research, of course - she's told me about throat-singing being a male practice in Tuva, but a female practice in Inuit cultures, or gamelan ensembles in Bali and Java being traditionally male, and though there are now women in Bali who play gamelan, there are no women who lead ensembles (though as an American, she gets a pass as a female gamelan ensemble leader).", "timestamp": "1396211230"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653626480172", "anchor": "fb-653626480172", "service": "fb", "text": "Again, I highly recommend you read some of the ethnomusicological literature on this subject. I am fairly certain someone has already published a paper that answers your question.", "timestamp": "1396211304"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653676045842", "anchor": "fb-653676045842", "service": "fb", "text": "Angela, *are* there more male musicians than female?", "timestamp": "1396237446"}, {"author": "Angela", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653697218412", "anchor": "fb-653697218412", "service": "fb", "text": "Ruthan: I would be surprised if that weren't true, though if there were any community to diverge from the norm it would be the contra community. I'm just thinking of high-profile bands in general and I find all- or mostly-male bands (Giant Robot Dance; Elixir) coming to mind more often than ones which are predominantly female (Anadama). I think Jeff would know better than I, at this point; he's looked at the numbers. It also may be worth mentioning (maybe not) that Jeff is only counting musicians affiliated with performing bands right now, and so in a few years, as more members of the younger generation are at a place in their lives where they can perform more, the numbers may change to be more balanced, on the whole. Though I'm just hypothesizing here.", "timestamp": "1396265499"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653718660442", "anchor": "fb-653718660442", "service": "fb", "text": "Whether you go by gigs or bands, weekends or the scout House, there do seem to be more male than female contra musicians.", "timestamp": "1396284105"}, {"author": "Perry", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653719403952", "anchor": "fb-653719403952", "service": "fb", "text": "I am pretty sure that these numbers would change somewhat if you go to other dance communities. You are measuring one dance series in a local area, but that wouldn't tell you about whether certain instruments are gendered in general. Here in the DC/Baltimore area I know of at least 2 or 3 male piano players, almost all the flute players are female, as well as all of the hammered dulcimer players. I have even seen at least one or two female bassists over the years. Dance weekends are probably heavily weighted towards one side or the other probably due to the fact that many weekends hire from a small subset of national bands (who are mostly male), though some of them probably hire a more local band as the 2nd or 3rd band - bands that might have more women in them. Would you count the musicians in open bands as well?", "timestamp": "1396284782"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653720616522", "anchor": "fb-653720616522", "service": "fb", "text": "Angela: \"I'm just thinking of high-profile bands in general and I find all- or mostly-male bands (Giant Robot Dance; Elixir) coming to mind more often than ones which are predominantly female (Anadama).\"
That's true, but I think there's some confirmation bias about what we consider \"predominantly\" one gender or the other in a band. For example, Elixir (20% female) and Free Raisins (33% male) are only 13% different in their minority representation. I'm not trying to make a big point about this other than to say that I think we have some perceptual things that make this more complicated than it seems.", "timestamp": "1396285554"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653720771212", "anchor": "fb-653720771212", "service": "fb", "text": "Another confounding variable is that a number of musicians I know don't identify with either side of the male/female binary. They're not necessarily public about saying so, but that adds more confusion to the data.", "timestamp": "1396285612"}, {"author": "Phillip", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653723595552", "anchor": "fb-653723595552", "service": "fb", "text": "While the data is interesting, I don't see why it matters. As a dancer, I nearly never think about the composition of the band. I only think about how fun they are to dance to. I essentially treat them as sexless. In the end, bands that attract dancers get gigs. I admit to knowing of one exception: a number of women have indicated a certain amount of swoon factor for one particular Musician/Caller (who is super talented, so I consider that a small factor).", "timestamp": "1396287608"}, {"author": "David", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653725097542", "anchor": "fb-653725097542", "service": "fb", "text": "Again, guys, I think rather than trying to use math on this it would be much better if you used the methodology of an academic discipline specifically geared towards studying music in different cultures and societies. Does any of you subscribe to any musicology or ethnomusicology journals?", "timestamp": "1396288649"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653733450802", "anchor": "fb-653733450802", "service": "fb", "text": "@Hollis: \"13% different in their minority representation\"
That's a pretty weird metric.", "timestamp": "1396292300"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653733869962", "anchor": "fb-653733869962", "service": "fb", "text": "Yup. We could also say that they're 38% different, or 62% different, depending on how you look at it. My point was twofold: it's challenging to find the right numbers to use in looking at subtle societal things, and (more broadly) how we feel is often not really tied to the numbers. I agree that Elixir \"feels\" much more like a male group than Free Raisins \"feels\" like a female group, but I'm not sure numbers are a useful tool for analyzing it. In this sense, I'm with David.", "timestamp": "1396292531"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653734099502", "anchor": "fb-653734099502", "service": "fb", "text": "Hollis: I'd subtract 33% from 80%, giving 47%. But single bands are too small to say much about.", "timestamp": "1396292721"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653734393912", "anchor": "fb-653734393912", "service": "fb", "text": "David, what information would you expect to find in ethno/musicology journals that you think we'd find relevant/interesting?", "timestamp": "1396292885"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653734932832", "anchor": "fb-653734932832", "service": "fb", "text": "Somebody with access might find this germane: http://books.google.com/books?id=cSufzrD-tg8C...", "timestamp": "1396293112"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653735092512", "anchor": "fb-653735092512", "service": "fb", "text": "Phillip, I think it matters because my mental model of women who could potentially be part of the talent pool for future dances says most of them associate \"contra dance musician\" with \"male\".", "timestamp": "1396293270"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653735267162", "anchor": "fb-653735267162", "service": "fb", "text": "which in turn makes the leap to \"Hey, maybe I could play at contra dances\" a little more difficult for women, and a little bit less likely to happen. (edit: clarity)", "timestamp": "1396293363"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653735496702", "anchor": "fb-653735496702", "service": "fb", "text": "I guess it's possible that any contra-aware potential musician, regardless of gender, is equally likely to become a performer, and the real question is why there are many more male potential musicians that female, but that seems farfetched.", "timestamp": "1396293514"}, {"author": "Amelia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653735771152", "anchor": "fb-653735771152", "service": "fb", "text": "Ruthan Once, when my all-female contra band (and the only that I know of) was playing a dance, a woman came up to me during the break and told me how happy she was to be able to point to our band as a role model for her very young daughter.", "timestamp": "1396293650"}, {"author": "Amelia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653736290112", "anchor": "fb-653736290112", "service": "fb", "text": "As to \"why it matters\" I think the data, however you parse it, speaks for itself. The question \"why it happens,\" a far more nuanced and interesting one, is more difficult to answer. As a music journalist and musician, it's plain to me that all genres of music embody society's patriarchal structuring, whether it's in the gender ratio over all, or in the breakdown of various instruments.", "timestamp": "1396293987"}, {"author": "Amelia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653736774142", "anchor": "fb-653736774142", "service": "fb", "text": "Check out the Girls Rock Camp Alliance; they are doing great work empowering young women and girls through rock: http://girlsrockcampalliance.org/", "timestamp": "1396294315"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653736858972", "anchor": "fb-653736858972", "service": "fb", "text": "Jeff, if you do a followup study, I'd be curious to see whether there are trends in:
- are certain instruments predictive of playing other instruments as well?
- are there gender differences in multi-instrumentality?
- are there gender differences that inform whether people mostly play with a single band vs. playing in multiple bands vs. playing in multiple pickup groups? (I think you'd need a larger dataset for this)
- are certain instruments more associated with their players participating in the different types of groups listed above?", "timestamp": "1396294413"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653737118452", "anchor": "fb-653737118452", "service": "fb", "text": "Amelia, I once ran sound for an an all-female band -- two fiddles and a piano. I sure can't think of any others, though, and I think even that might have been a pickup group.
Come back through North Carolina sometime, y'all were great! :)", "timestamp": "1396294528"}, {"author": "Amelia", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653737183322", "anchor": "fb-653737183322", "service": "fb", "text": "Ruthan you're one of the few women running sound on the contra circuit, I'd wager!", "timestamp": "1396294557"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653737477732", "anchor": "fb-653737477732", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm the only one I know :D Granted, I only know six or seven.", "timestamp": "1396294730"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653737881922", "anchor": "fb-653737881922", "service": "fb", "text": "I'm wondering about these because, in part, I'm not sure how I would stack up. I'm guessing that Frost and Fire's last trip to Concord just barely missed the beginning of your survey period, so I'm probably not in this data set, but assuming I were: what am I?
I'm a person who identifies as straight cisgender male playing in a band with several others who identify different ways. I think it's safe to say that we're a band with gender diversity, anyway. I can put myself in the male column.
What's my main instrument? Flute? Bagpipes are more salient and perhaps notorious, but I play them for fewer minutes per gig. Depending on what dances the caller chooses, I may end up playing guitar for more minutes per gig than I play of flute, even though I'm a much better flute player than I am a guitarist, and flute is perhaps more noteworthy because it's a melody instrument and is less common. Sometimes I play whistle in addition to flute, depending on factors like the hall, the sound guy, the sets, the moon phase, etc. God knows how mandolin will skew this relationship.
You could allocate one gender-worth of value to each player, and then subdivide that value over each of the instruments in the list, so I'd contribute (e.g.), 0.2 male-units to each of flute, whistle, bagpipes, guitar, and mandolin, but that doesn't reflect the relative amounts of time I spend playing them. Anyway, this is probably all just silly, but it's what I was thinking about.", "timestamp": "1396294969"}, {"author": "Ruthan", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653738321042", "anchor": "fb-653738321042", "service": "fb", "text": "Michael, I'm thinking of \"popularity\" strictly in terms of \"number of times dancers at a particular venue see any given musician\", without regard to how much the dancers like any given musician.", "timestamp": "1396295223"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653752033562", "anchor": "fb-653752033562", "service": "fb", "text": "@Amelia: \"you're one of the few women running sound on the contra circuit, I'd wager!\"
At BIDA sound is currently more female than male: Audrey Knuth, Michael, Julie Vallimont, Kathleen Fownes. But nearly everyone who has run sound for the Free Raisins on tour is male.", "timestamp": "1396299770"}, {"author": "Jeff Kaufman", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653754568482", "anchor": "fb-653754568482", "service": "fb", "text": "Hollis: you're pretty unusual in the number of instruments you play at a dance. For most bands in the sample I could identify a primary instrumentation pretty easily.", "timestamp": "1396300915"}, {"author": "Hollis", "source_link": "https://www.facebook.com/jefftk/posts/653522523502?comment_id=653755466682", "anchor": "fb-653755466682", "service": "fb", "text": "Fair.", "timestamp": "1396301214"}]}